Book Club Channel
Q&A with Jon Sweeney
Now Featured at the Patheos Book Club
The Pope Who Quit
A Medieval Tale of Mystery, Death, and Salvation
By Jon M. Sweeney
Jon M. Sweeney is an author, a book publisher, and a popular speaker. He is the editor of The Road to Assisi: The Essential Biography of St. Francis and the author of many books, including Verily, Verily: The KJV—400 Years of Influence and Beauty.
Here, he answers some questions about his new book The Pope Who Quit: A Medieval Tale of Mystery, Death, and Salvation. (For more conversation on the book—and to read an excerpt—visit the Patheos Book Club.)
Most people believe that popes serve until death—like the modern popes. Why do you think this story of Pope Celestine V has been somewhat hidden in modern times?
Well, it has been hidden and then not-so-hidden. I mean, there have been novels and plays about a pope who quits. Morris West's The Clowns of God in 1981 spent twenty-two weeks on the New York Times Bestseller list in hardcover. Clearly, these stories are inspired by Celestine V - since he's the only one who ever did. But, yes, people today don't tend to realize what it meant to be pope in the Middle Ages.
What did it mean to be pope, then?
It was quite a different job back then. In fact, it wasn't a job. It was a divine calling. To quit as pope in 1294, as Celestine V did, was at least shocking, and then treasonous and blasphemous to many. The pope was not simply a spiritual leader. That is a modern idea.
Who was this man who became Pope Celestine V? Where did he come from?
Peter Morrone, a hermit who lived in the mountains. He was in his eighties. He was a simple, simple man, who never desired or dreamed that he might be asked to be pope.
How did you conduct the research for this book?
I first encountered the name of Peter Morrone years ago while writing a book about Francis and Clare of Assisi. I wanted to come back to him again someday. So I was delighted by the opportunity to do that.
I spent two years writing The Pope Who Quit. I traveled to Rome and Naples and many places in between to see the sites for myself. And I spent thousands of hours in the library at Dartmouth College.
Do you think we'll ever know what truly happened to Pope Celestine V?
No. We know so little for sure about the people of the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries. For instance, scholars are still debating whether or not Geoffrey Chaucer—author of The Canterbury Tales—ever existed.
Pope Benedict XVI has confirmed that he would not hesitate to relinquish his post if he no longer felt "physically, psychologically and spiritually" up to the job. How do you think that would impact the Church?
Yes, isn't that amazing!? He said that in a book of interviews published in late 2010. I think that that book embarrassed a lot of the members of the papal curia. They did not like their Pope talking like a Celestine V!
If he were to ever step down, I think it would seriously rock the Church, just as Celestine V's abdication did long ago. But, that said, it could happen.
Some thought that Pope John Paul II should have stepped down, too, when he was ill. Do you agree?
I don't know, perhaps so. He certainly was no longer the administrative leader of the Church toward the end of his life. We know that for certain. Neither was Celestine V—and that is primarily why he stepped down.
The difference between the two is that in the television age a pope can lead by spiritual example, on television, inspiring the faithful. In the late thirteenth century, a pope could not lead in that way. A pope had to be strong—or else.