Check out this video, where two of my favorite living Catholic authors — Fr. James Martin, SJ and Fr. Richard Rohr, OFM — have a chat together at a religious education congress a couple of years ago.
James Martin is a Jesuit and is an editor at large of America magazine; Richard Rohr is a Franciscan and the director of the Center for Action and Contemplation. Both are widely admired, not only within the Catholic Church, but also beyond it.
Martin is the author of books like The Jesuit Guide to Almost Everything: A Spirituality for Real Life, My Life with the Saints, and Jesus: A Pilgrimage, among other titles. Some of Rohr’s books include Everything Belongs: The Gift of Contemplative Prayer, The Naked Now: Learning to See as the Mystics See, and The Divine Dance: The Holy Trinity and Your Transformation.
In this interview from March 2015, Martin and Rohr begin by talking about their mutual admiration for Pope Francis — but since the Holy Father is a Jesuit who took Francis as his papal name, is it any wonder? But from there, the conversation widens to consider the ways in which their respective spiritual traditions are similar yet distinct in how they seek to express the love of God and the good news of Christ in our world. I love how Richard, with a twinkle in his eye, declares Ignatius of Loyola as an “honorary Franciscan” because of the similarity that Rohr sees between Ignatius and St. Francis!
It’s clear that these two priests admire each other’s work, and they talk about their common desire to write in such a way that their words are accessible to all people — not just Catholics or Christians, but also those “on the margins” or even those “outside” (I think this impulse, while missional/evangelistic in nature, has also landed both of them in in hot water with some conservative or traditionalist Catholics who might be uncomfortable with the clear sense of generosity and expansiveness that characterizes their spirituality).
They touch on Rohr’s book Falling Upward, which looks at how spirituality can take different forms between the first half of life and the second half (with the “halves of life” being somewhat metaphorical; i.e. some people might enter the second half of life at a young age, while others don’t reach it until late in life). The first half of life is the time when a person builds his or her “container” — the ego or personality structure, which enables us to function in the world but which can also sometimes function as a kind of mask or “false self” that can get in the way of the radical surrender and deep liberation that the freedom of God calls us to. The second half of life takes the container, seeks to fill it with the love and grace and mercy of God, and then pour it forth upon others. So if the first half of life is all about creating the self, the second half, paradoxically, is all about giving that self away!
Rohr goes on to explain how sometimes, institutional or organized forms of religion, which are so invested in helping their members build a good “container,” are ironically not very helpful with those second-half-of-life tasks — surrendering that very container into the love and freedom of God.
Anyway, I love both of these guys, so it’s a treat to see them chatting together. It’s not a particularly long video — so enjoy!
N.B. Last week I posted another video featuring Richard Rohr. Check it out here.
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