<

“I Used to be an Atheist, Just Like You”

Mechanical drawing of a ratchetI can believe that you used to be an atheist.  An atheist is simply someone without a god belief.  It’s the “just like you” part that I’m having trouble with.

Lots of Christian apologists introduce themselves as former atheists.  Lee Strobel, for example, often begins presentations with a summary of his decadent, angry atheist past.  The implied message is that people like me convert to Christianity all the time.  No, I don’t think so.

To see this, let’s look at three groups of people.

  1. Group 1 are the Christians.
  2. The atheists need two groups.  Group 2 are technically atheists because they don’t have a god belief, but they don’t know much about arguments in favor of Christianity, rebuttals to those arguments, or arguments in favor of atheism.  Nothing wrong with that, of course—the God question doesn’t interest everyone—but they’re simply poorly informed about atheism.
  3. Group 3 includes the well-educated atheists.  This group does understand the arguments on both sides of the issue.  I put myself into this group (with justification, I hope).

Now, back to the conversion/deconversion question.

  1. I know of people in Group 1 (Christians) who’ve deconverted: Rich Lyons from the Living After Faith podcast.  Matt Dillahunty of the Atheist Community of Austin.  Dan Barker of the Freedom From Religion Foundation.  Bob Price, the Bible GeekBart Ehrman, author of Misquoting Jesus.  They’re now all in Group 3 and they’re particularly interesting because they were very well educated Christians.  Education actually turned them away from Christianity.
  2. I’m sure many people formerly in Group 2 (uninformed atheists) have converted to Christianity.  This sounds like the group that the imagined former-atheist-now-Christian came from.
  3. But here’s my point: I’ve never heard of anyone in Group 3, the well-educated atheists, who converted to Christianity.  Of course, this makes me vulnerable to the No True Scotsman fallacy—rejecting any counterexample with, “Oh, well that guy wasn’t truly a well-educated atheist”—but I invite you to add a comment if you can think of someone.

Well-educated Christians deconvert to atheism, but well-educated atheists don’t convert to Christianity.  More education about the history and origins of Christianity increases the likelihood that the Christian will deconvert, but more education increases the likelihood that the atheist will stay put.  Education pushes you in one direction only.

This is an asymmetry that apologists don’t seem to appreciate.  Becoming a well-educated atheist is a one-way street.  It’s a ratchet.  Once you become a well-educated atheist, you’re stuck there.

This is why “just like you” makes no sense.  If you were a Group 2 atheist, uninterested and uninformed about the arguments, and you converted to Christianity, that’s not surprising.  But if you’d been a well-educated atheist (Group 3), you wouldn’t make the arguments that you do.  You wouldn’t make arguments to which I have an immediate rebuttal.  Indeed, you would make only those arguments which you knew (since you’d been just like me) I had no response to.

It never seems to work that way.

Photo credit: Wikimedia

Related posts:

About Bob Seidensticker
  • RandomFunction2

    Hi Bob,

    Christians made a lot of fuss about Anthony Flew converting to Deism…

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      That’s true. But I would put him in the category of “uninformed atheist.” An odd claim to make for someone who the Christians say was the most influential philosopher of the twentieth century, but when you read There is a God, the book supposedly written by Flew, you see that he hadn’t been well informed about the scientific arguments that pushed him to deism. In other words, he was influenced by the opening salvo (which is fine) without digging into the arguments to understand the scientific/atheistic side of things.

  • Bob Calvan

    Well , folks this could be Bob’s most absurd article on his blog..Full of error.
    Bob says:
    To see this, let’s look at three groups of people.
    Error: (1)There are only two people in the world. THe saved ( Christians) and the lost. ( the rest of mankind) What you call them is irrelevant. Call them Atheist, Agnostic, Human Secularist, Budhist, Muslim, Jewish sects, or the religions tha “ape” chrisitianity. All are unbeleivers.
    Error. (2) . Bob says he knows a lot of Christians that “deconverted”… Well Bob knows of no Christian who deconverted there are none. Those the Father gave the Son , the Son gives those and only those eternal life..True born again Cheristians can not deconvert.
    I ask Bob if he is going to represent Chrisitianity , then at least represent what orthodox Chrisitianity is. Jesus will loose none the Father gives him.
    Error (3) Bob says he never heard of an educated Atheist who converted to Chrisitianity. Wow , what an absurd statement! God will call His elect untill Jesus comes back, and there are millions of educated Atheist that God egenerated throughout time.
    So

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      this could be Bob’s most absurd article on his blog..

      A new high! Yay!

      Bob says he knows a lot of Christians that “deconverted”… Well Bob knows of no Christian who deconverted there are none. Those the Father gave the Son , the Son gives those and only those eternal life..True born again Cheristians can not deconvert.

      Yes, that is indeed the No True Scotsman Fallacy (find the link to this in the article above). I doubt you were trying to model that, but you did a great job nonetheless.

      I ask Bob if he is going to represent Chrisitianity , then at least represent what orthodox Chrisitianity is

      I’m afraid I’ll never be able to make the distinction between your flavor of Christianity and what you think are aberrant forms of Christianity. Let’s make that your job.

      Bob says he never heard of an educated Atheist who converted to Chrisitianity. Wow , what an absurd statement! God will call His elect untill Jesus comes back, and there are millions of educated Atheist that God egenerated throughout time.

      I have no idea what that means, but if you know of a well-educated atheist who’s converted to Christianity (and who uses interesting and compelling apologetic arguments), give me a name.

  • Bob Calvan

    So, I suggest if Bob wishes to represent the Christian faith, he does so honestly. And stop building staw men and attacking the straw man.

    Remeber Bob Jesus seperates the Sheep and the Goats.. Two people..The Sheep are God’s elect (John10) and the Goats are the rest of mankind..What you call them ( Atheist, Agnostic, Humanist, Buddist, etc is meaningless and irrelevant.

    Error.(4) Bob’s calim that he has rebutted all of Chrsitianity is also absurd..Bob has not rebutted any claims..All Bob has done is given his own subjective personal opinion..Bob worldview is subjective, and arbitrary, inconsistent, and relitive to his feelings.

    Bob has no standard for truth, morality, or human ethics, or science. Bob can not account for these things.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      So, I suggest if Bob wishes to represent the Christian faith, he does so honestly. And stop building staw men and attacking the straw man.

      If by “straw men” you mean “some flavor of Christianity besides my own,” I can’t help you there. If I attack a position that you think is a straw man, then agree with me!

      Remeber Bob Jesus seperates the Sheep and the Goats..

      Yep. And the sheep get into heaven because of what they did. No faith required. (Given that, I’m surprised you bring up this parable.)

      Bob’s calim that he has rebutted all of Chrsitianity is also absurd..Bob has not rebutted any claims..

      I’ve got a ways to go before I rebut all of Christianity. Give me a chance! But if you have a rebuttal to one of my arguments, let us hear it.

      Bob worldview is subjective, and arbitrary, inconsistent, and relitive to his feelings.
      Bob has no standard for truth, morality, or human ethics, or science. Bob can not account for these things.

      I have no absolute standard. But then, neither do you.

  • Jon Cohen

    Hebrews 6:4-6 says something similar, but puts the bar far higher,

    “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. ”

    Some claim that only Lucifer himself meets that criteria for being unable to be reached.

    After having been raised in a Jewish family and attending Christian Bible studies weekly for many years as an atheist, and also having read several histories of Christianity, as well as many books on Buddhism, I once considered myself a reasonable well informed Christian atheist. Once I accepted God and Christ, I did dig much deeper and became much more informed especially for example in the Calvinist vs. Arminian debate.

    I have noticed that Bob spends a lot of time on Old Testament issues and especially young Earth Creationism. However, even John Calvin in the 1500s rejected that biblical interpretation. I don’t have the specific page number but it was in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, which is the most important Protestant theological work there is outside the Bible. He did that centuries before Darwin. As I recall it was simply a part of his setting aside Catholic believes from biblical ones. Catholics have since moved away from that position also since then. So knowing the nuances of YEC is addressing a rather slim segment of Christianity. Even Jews have moved away from some of the things it says in the OT, and the only way to understand the OT from a Christian perspective is to study the NT.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      YEC is a subset of Christianity, but evolution denial is pretty big–40% of Americans, I believe.

      • Jon Cohen

        There are some detailed statistics here http://www.gallup.com/poll/21814/Evolution-Creationism-Intelligent-Design.aspx

        However, the categories those survey questions provide seem to me to presuppose that God acts within our notion of time. It is pretty clear he does not, which was very well understand by for example Jonathan Edwards in the 1700s.

        One problem that results excluding Creationism from public schools, and at the same time making private religious education unaffordable by rejecting vouchers, is that most Christians are sadly uneducated on the relevant concepts.

        It was only when I understood the real state of current scientific understanding of fundamental reality and also the sophisticated understand in those same concepts implicit in the Bible that I realized that the Bible was in fact inspired because there is no way they could have gotten in that correct 2000 years ago.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Jon:

        I realized that the Bible was in fact inspired because there is no way they could have gotten in that correct 2000 years ago.

        I missed your point. What are you saying the Bible got correct? Perhaps you could illustrate your point with some verses.

  • Jon Cohen

    Oops, should have proofread more carefully, I meant to say “reasonably well informed atheist”

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      (I made that correction in your earlier post.)

  • Jon Cohen

    “What are you saying the Bible got correct? Perhaps you could illustrate your point with some verses.”

    “Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. ” Genesis 2:1-2

    If you try to work out what has to be true to resolve the accounts in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2, there has to be a view of acting outside of our sense of time. It was not until Einstein that science began to grapple with what time really is. Prior to that, some prominent scientists thought understanding of physics was nearly wrapped up except for a few limited gray areas.

    “Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. Instead, you ought to say, “If it is the Lord’s will, we will live and do this or that.” (James 4:14-15)

    I think most Christians even consider that a pretty minor verse. I think it is a very insightful description of the nature of reality, consciousness, and our lack of free will.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Right–Einstein gave us a new view of space and time, not the Bible.

      This is all after the fact. It’s Monday-morning quarterbacking. I’d like to see an example of some truth about reality (quantum physics, even something simple like germ theory) that Mankind learned of first from the Bible.

      • RandomFunction2

        Hi Bob,

        I ALREADY gave you an instance of an important truth known to the Bible and unknown to nearly everyone else (including the Greek philosophers): linear time. Most religions and philosophies were entangled in cyclical time and eternal recurrence.

  • Bob Calvan

    “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance

    Jon Cohen..You might want to go to aomin.org and listen to James White sermon on Hebrews 6.

  • Bob Calvan

    Bob as I said all your points are False as you created a false caracature of Christianity..THe Christlianity you attack does not exist.

    If you are to be credable do your reseach and represent orthodox Christianity. Your ingnorence of Christianity blows you whole website.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      THe Christlianity you attack does not exist.

      Give me some specifics.

  • RandomFunction2

    To BobC,

    ««« Error: (1)There are only two people in the world. THe saved ( Christians) and the lost. ( the rest of mankind) What you call them is irrelevant. Call them Atheist, Agnostic, Human Secularist, Budhist, Muslim, Jewish sects, or the religions tha “ape” chrisitianity. All are unbeleivers. »»»

    Ever heard of the invisible Church? From a catholic standpoind, people that say they are not Christians are not necessarily cursed by God and separated from him. They may have good reasons for rejecting what they think is Christianity. Even if the real thing is explained to them properly, it’s not a certainty that they will UNDERSTAND it as they are supposed to. Because, well, we ultimately don’t know what goes on in other people’s heads.

  • Bob Calvan

    Yes, the invisible church are those past and present and future that are the true elect of God..Those God’s Spirit regenerated to eternal life.

    The RCC is caught in there own infallable contradiction. You have Vat I and early Counsils with infallable dogma’s saying there is only salvation in the RCC. and only salvation in the mass and eucharist, and there is no other way except through the RCC.
    Then you have Vat11 with infallable dogma that others then the RCC can have seperated brothers who will be saved. And also that the RC worships and adores with the Muslim the same God. What a mess of contradicting infallable dogma’s..What a pethetic man made ,synergistic, sacramental works system. That practices Idolatry..The RCC is leading milliions of people to hell with a false gospel.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Or the whole thing could be just another manmade religion. History is full of them.

  • Bob Calvan

    Well Bob knows of no Christian who deconverted there are none. Those the Father gave the Son , the Son gives those and only those eternal life..True born again Cheristians can not deconvert.

    Yes, that is indeed the No True Scotsman Fallacy (find the link to this in the article above). I doubt you were trying to model that, but you did a great job nonetheless.

    Sorry Bob ,
    I am familiar witht ehNo true Scotsman Fallacy. But it does not apply to my statement. Wether you beleive the scriptures or not is ireelevant. But the Bible teaches theat those the Father gives the Son will never loose their salvation..This is an absolute fact. So when you make a statement that Dan Barker was a Chrsitian who deconverted, that according to thwe Christian world view would be impossible.
    That is what I mean by a straw man agrument.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      I know of plenty of Christians who deconverted. You just claim (after the fact) that they must’ve not been true Christians. Sure sounds like No True Scotsman to me.

      By “absolute fact,” do you mean “something I really, really believe”? Because you’ve given zero evidence of any absolute anything. Lots of bluster, but no evidence.

      But that’s not the focus of my argument. I’m saying that I know of no well-educated atheist who’s converted to Christianity.

  • Bob Calvan

    Side note why is it that when posting on the comment square . it only lets me go so far?

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      I don’t know of any limitations for making comments, sorry.

  • Bob Calvan

    So Bob,
    If you gave a correct view of Christianity you would not bring up Christians can deconvert.
    That is what I mean, please do not make up false caracatures of Christianity, that do not exist. There are many people who have an intelectual understanding ( faith) of Christianity, but that is not a saving faith. There is a difference. Dan Barker was never a true born again Christian, as he says he was. And this has been pointed out to him by some appologist’s.

    As John says: 1 John 2:19 “They went out from us,but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us”.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      OK, I understand what you’re saying now. You do appreciate, though, that loads of Christians (I would say the vast majority) don’t accept your thinking? That is, they accept the fact that a Christian can deconvert. They don’t have this idea that any deconverting Christian couldn’t have been a true Christian.

      This may well be Bob Calvan’s view of Christianity, but it’s certainly not a universal view of Christianity.

  • Bob Calvan

    No What I am saying is not standard Calvinism, Most Arminians do hol;d to the beloeiver can not loose their salvation.

    What I hold to is sola scriptura..Jesus came do do the will of the Father. And what is the will of the Father? To save perfectly all those He gave the Son..And the Son gave those Eternal life..Jesus said He did fulfill the will of the Father perfectly.
    So for one to assume one can deconvert is to assumme Jesus Failed to do the Fathers will. And Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit failed in their attemp to save those sinners. Give me a break. Jesus said nothing on earth or in heaven can take away those beleivers the Father gave him..So when presenting the Christian faith (Weather we beleive the scriptures or not) let us be truthful on what it teaches.. That is all I ask.. I would respect Bob’s views a lot more.
    Thank you Bob for hearing me out.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Sounds to me like Jesus did indeed fail. How many souls will go to hell vs. how many in heaven? My understanding (uh oh–here again, I may be thinking of something besides your version of Christianity!) is that most will go to hell.

      Imagine a school teacher who failed most of her students. Terrible! Wouldn’t you expect Mr. Big to do better than that?

      You’re quite right that I need to portray Christianity reasonably rather than invent some strawman that’s easy to knock over. But I need to be a lot more ecumenical than describing just your version.

      • Jon Cohen

        Obviously God could have created whatever beings he wanted to inhabit this world. He choose to allow good and evil to coexist, and by its nature the evil spreads. After our deaths, our eternal souls go to places where the good and evil are separated for eternity.

        Now BobS is claiming that the people going hell outnumbering the people going to heaven, and that indicates injustice. But we don’t know enough to say that, because there are many kinds of things that can happen. It could be that the suffering in hell is infinite in time but diminishes so that the total amount of suffering is finite (Calvin suggested that), or it could be that eventually more people are created directly into heaven, making the total number in hell a tiny number by comparison. There are many other possibilities, and the surprises we know about in life are probably only a hint of the surprises to come afterwards.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Jon: Sure, we don’t know. And yet that doesn’t stop many Christian pastors and theologians from weaving elaborate stories about heaven and hell and life afterwards. If you’re one of the few voices who argue that the Bible actually gives very few specifics about life after death, that’s great. But we’re awash with such speculation within the Christian community, so I need to confront that.

  • RandomFunction2

    to all,

    Actually, Christians are committed to believing that most souls are in heaven, because in our history most people died in miscarriages or early in childhood. And since limbo does not exist…

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      An interesting twist.

      But what about adults? Will most of those go to heaven … or to the other place? And is your answer just what you believe or is this widely believed by Christians?

  • Bob Calvan

    I forgot to reply to Bob’s statement that ” He never heard of a well educated Atheist that converted to Chrsitianity”….
    Well there are hundreds of them..If you like i can list one a day for a few months if you like?

    Here is a good start. Alister McGrath was formely an Atheist
    He went up to Wadham College, Oxford in 1971 and gained first class honours in chemistry in 1975. He began research in molecular biophysics in the Oxford University Department of Biochemistry under the supervision of Professor Sir George Radda, FRS and was elected to an E.P.A. Cephalosporin Research Studentship at Linacre College, Oxford, for the academic year 1975-6, and to a Domus Senior Scholarship at Merton College, Oxford, for the period 1976-8. During these three years, he carried out scientific research while studying for the Oxford University Final Honour School of Theology. He was awarded an Oxford D.Phil. for his research in molecular biophysics (December 1977), and gained first class honours in Theology in June 1978.[1]

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      I don’t want a list of well-educated Christians. I want a list of people who:

      (1) were well educated about atheism (rather than merely being atheists). As well-educated as me, let’s say. (That’s not asking a lot!)

      (2) turned their backs on atheism and became Christians.

      I can’t think of anyone. Antony Flew is not a bad candidate (as brought forward by a well-informed reader in an earlier comment), but he was not well informed about the atheist arguments. Proof: he wouldn’t have expressed the Christian apologetics so superficially in “his” There is a God.

      • http://www.facebook.com/karludy Karl Udy

        Alister McGrath does fit the bill. Try reading his book The Twilight of Atheism.

        As does CS Lewis.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Thanks for the tips.

        I read McGrath’s The Dawkins Delusion shortly after it came out, and I found it fairly light–more a critique of Dawkins’ approach than an actual rebuttal. I haven’t read his Twilight of Atheism.

        I’ve read Lewis’s Mere Christianity. That was worthwhile, because he is so often cited, and I saw a wide variety of arguments that I think he originated (in his particular form, anyway).

        But this gets to my point. Neither of these guys (and again, I haven’t read the McGrath book you recommend) takes the conversation to the next level. They all give arguments to which I have immediate replies–or at least replies that I can formulate after a bit of thought.

        If I become a Christian, I would target the atheist audience by taking the argument to the next level. And this is my point–this is what I’m not seeing.

        Could be, of course, that these guys could well take it to the next level, but they’re not targeting me in the audience. OK, but that does nothing to refute my point that Christian apologists weren’t like me (because if they were, they would be using arguments that go one step beyond where I am, rather than stop one step before).

        • http://www.facebook.com/karludy Karl Udy

          Firstly, regarding Lewis. He died almost 50 years ago and to be fair to both you and him, the arguments aren’t in the same place now that they were then. Moreover, his atheist days were in the 20s and 30s. It would be fair to say that he was educated about the atheist arguments that were current in his time. You can only expect him to take the argument one step beyond where it was then, not where you are now.

          That you can provide responses to the arguments raised in Mere Christianity I suggest is probably more due to those arguments being so widely used. An argument could be made that, at the time, he was taking the argument to the next level. But if you wanted examples of Lewis taking the argument to the next level, then I would recommend other books than Mere Christianity, like The Problem of Pain.

          McGrath’s book points out that atheism seems to lack the intellectual creativity and vivacity of 100 years ago, and asks if we are seeing the movement at the end of its cycle.

      • http://www.facebook.com/karludy Karl Udy

        You can add Peter Hitchens to the list of well-educated atheists who became Christians.

  • Bob Calvan

    Sounds to me like Jesus did indeed fail. How many souls will go to hell vs. how many in heaven? My understanding (uh oh–here again, I may be thinking of something besides your version of Christianity!) is that most will go to hell.

    Imagine a school teacher who failed most of her students. Terrible! Wouldn’t you expect Mr. Big to do better than that?

    You’re quite right that I need to portray Christianity reasonably rather than invent some strawman that’s easy to knock over. But I need to be a lot more ecumenical than describing just your version.

    I have not given you my opinion or version of Christianity. Just scripture. If a difficulot verse or doctrine did arise I will let you know this is my opinion and why.
    No Jesus did not fail..It is obvious you are just skimming what I say. Jesus saved and is saving PERFECTLY all the Father gives Him (John 6:37)
    THere will not be one lost person who is predestined to be saved that will not be. And yes, God has decreed that more will recieve His wrath than will recieve His mercy. But no man recieves unjustice. We all desrve God’s wrath. But God has determined to save for Himself a multitude that no onwe can number, for His Glory and for His purpose. Praise God!

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Will Jesus ensure that everyone gets into heaven? If not, then something is getting bungled somewhere. Billions of souls in eternal torment is a pretty big failure.

      We deserve God’s wrath? We deserve infinite punishment? Not even Hitler deserves that! How we’re destined for hell when we act in the imperfect way that he made us is beyond comprehension to me. I’m not sure where God deserves any praise for an insane setup like that.

      • Jon Cohen

        Atheism also has infinite punishment. There are several models of cosmology proposed to avoid the problem of why 19 or so physical constants are tuned to exactly the values needed for life. They generally involve some infinite sequence of Big Bangs with slightly different values. Such an infinite sequence is going to have an infinite subsequence with essentially the same values, so the same people will recur an infinite number of times. Take a BobS type person for example. That person can be described by the reaction that person will have in each possible situation. Most of the life situations that have occurred in history have been pretty miserable, at least in comparison in today’s conditions, and today’s conditions aren’t that great for most of humanity as it is. So in such an atheist system, BobS will effectively reincarnate into a series of lives most of which are unpleasant. All of that is governed by senseless randomness.

        If there is a personal God guiding things through a plan, then we can look forward to a just type of eternal life, even if we don’t understand it at this time.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Multiverse theory is pretty speculative, and reincarnation as a consequence is extremely speculative. Are you trying to use science to prove the existence of a soul?

        But even going down this path, a sucky life only last for so long. God’s Perfect Plan® would have those who didn’t believe correctly each given eternal torment.

        And that’s the crazy thing about the Christian view. God’s plan isn’t just! None of us playing judge, even if caught a particularly peevish frame of mind, would ever sentence anyone to eternal punishment. It’s simply not just. And the same punishment for each crime? Ghandi gets the same punishment as Stalin? Crazy.

  • RandomFunction2

    Hi Bob,

    Jon Cohen may be right: if God does not exist and the universe is all that there is, how can it avoid eternal recurrence? If eternal recurrence is true, then we are pretty wretched. Because we will experience again and again the same pain, the same failures that we are experiencing right now.

  • Jon Cohen

    “Ghandi gets the same punishment as Stalin? ”

    With an infinite universe, there is an infinite amount of suffering, however you cut it up. Whether it is a series of nearly identical individuals, or a single reincarnating individual with no memory, or an eternal soul with memory, it is still infinite suffering. The only way out is for the universe to become void, or for evil to be defeated and for God to control the suffering. Obviously this is speculative, but the point is that you can’t claim that infinite suffering is inherent only in God.

    And the alternative to an infinite universe is to suppose that this one that is just right for life to exist just magically appeared, one time. That’s pretty speculative.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      It’s infinite suffering for infinite individuals. The Christian view has infinite suffering for each individual.

      I don’t see where the reincarnation comes in and how we can assume that souls exist, but if you simply imagine infinite universes, the suffering of any single life form is finite.

      I’m not convinced by the fine-tuning argument (more in a later post, perhaps), but the magical appearance is actually what the Christian thinks. The Christian claims it’s super unlikely. The multiverse is indeed speculative, but as for the appearance of any particular universe, I don’t see how that is speculative.

      And this doesn’t bypass the problem that you quoted: that Ghandi gets the same punishment as Stalin. God’s justice is one size fits all. That makes for a pretty poor fit IMO.

  • Bob Calvan

    Why? Ghandi and Stalin and you are God hatrers. God is Just. In fact every time you post a new article you are heaping more coals upon your head.. You go out of your way to attack your Creator, your judgemnt will be worse. Unless God grants you repentence.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Why would my punishment be worse? Hell is one size fits all, right?

      You lump Ghandi and Stalin into the same bin? They’re not only identical in God’s eyes but they’re identical in yours? Wow.

      And keep in mind that your Pascal’s Wager applies to both of us. Things will suck if you’re wrong and the Buddhist idea of hell is actually correct. Or the Muslim one. Or lots of others.

  • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

    Karl:

    McGrath’s book points out that atheism seems to lack the intellectual creativity and vivacity of 100 years ago, and asks if we are seeing the movement at the end of its cycle.

    Yes, I’ve heard this argument before, although it doesn’t resonate with me. Maybe I’m missing it.

    I’m still seeing the atheist position at the end of each line of reasoning, with no Christian rebuttals taking it a step further. Let me admit that there could be good Christian apologetics that I’m just not familiar with (though that seems to be increasingly unlikely).

    • http://www.facebook.com/karludy Karl Udy

      I guess you’d need to read his book to find out why he says this. I read it four years ago, so I’ve forgotten most of the details.

      I’m not seeing much coming from atheist circles to take things a step further. What is a recent atheist argument that took things to the next level?

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        My point is that in each Christian apologetic argument, the atheist has the last word.

        Give me another six months of blog posts and I will flesh out this thinking on a number of points.

  • Pingback: Lee Strobel’s Fragile Argument | Cross Examined

  • yeahno

    Are you buried to your neck in poor apologetics and threats of brimstone?

    That’s what appears to me after perusing this blog.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      Are you buried to your neck in poor apologetics and threats of brimstone?

      No, but thanks for asking.

      If you think otherwise, give me some specifics of what I got wrong.

  • Pingback: An Angry Christian Responds | Philosopher's Haze

  • Pingback: “This is Guaranteed to Convert You!” | Cross Examined

  • wjb67

    “Well-educated Christians deconvert to atheism, but well-educated atheists don’t convert to Christianity. More education about the history and origins of Christianity increases the likelihood that the Christian will deconvert, but more education increases the likelihood that the atheist will stay put. Education pushes you in one direction only.”

    That’s a fairly odd thing to say. Not really accurate is it? In light of (just off the top of my head) folks like C.S. Lewis, Anthony Flew, Alister McGrath, Peter Hitchens, Ann Rice, Thomas Merton, Czeslaw Milosz, and others. Those are just the famous examples. There are many obscure, yet educated, converts who would take exception to your charaterizing them as “uneducated” or “undereducated”.

    “This is an asymmetry that apologists don’t seem to appreciate. Becoming a well-educated atheist is a one-way street. It’s a ratchet. Once you become a well-educated atheist, you’re stuck there.”

    Sorry I think this assertion might be you projecting your own narrative onto others. Good luck with the fact that you can’t allow yourself room for error and re-evaluation of data, but to claim that is some kind of standard across the board is nonsense. Usually I find that the “education” most atheists have about Christian theology is riddled with holes, propaganda, and misinformation…or, they simply choose to allow only for a hyper literalist view of the bible which makes them every bit as stubborn and nonsensical as the hardest of hard-core young earth creationist types. Either way it’s generally a construct they use to keep themselves from seriously considering the possbility of some something greater than the whole of human knowledge.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Not really accurate is it?

      I think it is.

      In the post, I tried to make a clear distinction (maybe it wasn’t so clear) between ordinary atheists (people who simply have no god belief) and those who are well trained in apologetics, both for and against Christianity. As I said, if these converted atheists had been well-trained atheists, they wouldn’t be making the weak arguments that they do. Rather they would say, “OK, the atheist will respond thusly … [fill in all the arguments that I would use] … but these don’t work because of … [fill in new, compelling arguments].” Never happens. I get the same old arguments. That is, the tennis match always ends with me replying to my Christian opponent, with him not responding.

      There are many obscure, yet educated, converts who would take exception to your charaterizing them as “uneducated” or “undereducated”.

      They may well take exception, but I argue that this is without foundation, for the reason just stated.

      it’s generally a construct they use to keep themselves from seriously considering the possbility of some something greater than the whole of human knowledge.

      I’m happy to consider something greater. That there never turns out to be meaningful evidence of such a something-or-other is why I continue to be an atheist.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        Bob,
        I think you really do need to read what Alister McGrath and Peter Hitchens have written about their own atheism and their decisions to abandon that for theism.

        You are sure that no atheist who really understood the philosophical issues involved would convert to theism, yet if you read the accounts of these two (and both of them have books released in the past decade which cover precisely this issue – The Twilight of Atheism by Alister McGrath and The Rage Against God by Peter Hitchens) you will find two people committed to atheism and well-versed in the philosophical issues who did make such a decision.

        To support your claim you must either show that people like this do not really understand the philosophical issues involved ie that they were never educated atheists.

        • Retro

          I think you really do need to read what Alister McGrath and Peter Hitchens have written about their own atheism and their decisions to abandon that for theism.

          I found this video clip of Peter Hitchens: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xe4nli_atheism-aside-peter-hitchens-journe_news

          Around the four minute mark, Peter says that it was fear that made him convert to Christianity.

          In this newspaper article, Peter Hitchens explains that he was raised as a Christian, in his teenage years became an atheist out of rebellion, but then returned to Christianity by his thirties because of fear:

          http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255983/How-I-God-peace-atheist-brother-PETER-HITCHENS-traces-journey-Christianity.html#ixzz1qxMJzxbZ

          Read the newspaper article and then explain to me how Peter Hitchens was ever an educated atheist. Explain to me where it describes Peter Hitchens becoming an atheist because of logic and reason, and then converting to Christianity because of logic and reason.

          Unless you really want to argue about it, and provide some quotes from his book, I think we can safely cross Peter Hitchens off the “Educated atheist converted to Christian” list.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Retro’s analysis is pretty devastating, but just a quick additional thought.

          It’s certainly possible that I’ll come across someone who knows all the arguments that I present and then hits the ball back over the net with arguments that I haven’t seen yet. But I doubt it.

          I’m not especially driven to read a whole book on the off chance that I’ll find all my arguments rebutted. I’m open minded and interested in hearing the other side, but time is limited.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    Good. Now we’re down to really debating the issues at hand.

    Retro, I have read the article, and did when it was first published (some time before the “updated” date on the page.) I do think that you have rather missed the point in his story. Yes, rebellion in his teenage years did play a part in his moving away from the faith of his parents – are you going to say that every atheist who left their parent’s faith in part because of rebellion did so apart from logic and reason? Or could the two have not been combined? Especially when Hitchens states “We were sure that we, and our civilisation, had grown out of the nursery myths of God, angels and Heaven. We had modern medicine, penicillin, jet engines, the Welfare State, the United Nations and ‘ science’, which explained everything that needed to be explained.” it seems that his rebellion was not something that was purely hormonal in its causes, but he had (or found) reasons to support his atheism.

    In the same way, fear did play a role in his conversion to Christianity, although again was this a fear divorced from reason and logic? He points out several reasons for his return to religion: One was the inevitability of my own death, the other the undoubted fact that my despised forebears were neither crude nor ignorant, but men and women of great skill and engineering genius, a genius not contradicted or blocked by faith, but enhanced by it.
    He also mentions his disillusionment with politics and ambition playing a role.
    Another reason was fear, or to be more precise the sense of dread at his own judgment that ven der Weyden’s Last Judgment prompted within him. If God is real, and he has been living a life of rebellion against God, then isn’t fear of God’s judgment a perfectly rational and logical response to have?

    But surely the real issue is whether he was knowledgable about the issues regarding atheism and theism at the time of his conversion to Christianity. The fact that fear and rebellion played parts in his journey at various points speaks nothing to this issue. In fact, it probably shows a greater honesty and transparency in his account that he acknowledges that these played a role in his decisions. It is all too easy to pretend that our head always rules our heart completely in issues like this.

    Bob,
    You say:

    It’s certainly possible that I’ll come across someone who knows all the arguments that I present and then hits the ball back over the net with arguments that I haven’t seen yet. But I doubt it.

    I’m not especially driven to read a whole book on the off chance that I’ll find all my arguments rebutted. I’m open minded and interested in hearing the other side, but time is limited.

    You seem to be more than willing to read those whom you either are confident you will agree with, or whom you are confident you can provide counter-arguments to. Yet, when encouraged to read books which may challenge your preconceptions you don’t have the time?

    At any rate, I doubt that any argument would convince you. The fact is that “We tend to relax our critical powers when assessing what appears to confirm the narratives to which we’re deeply committed.” In other words, your guard is up whenever you are reading or hearing a Christian argument, in a way in which it is not when hearing the opposite point of view. (We’re all the same.)

    In fact you are probably more like Christopher Hitchen’s about whom Peter Hitchen’s said in the same article: It is my belief that passions as strong as his are more likely to be countered by the unexpected force of poetry, which can ambush the human heart at any time.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl:

      You’ve gone down a different path than I’m on. I’m saying that atheists-turned-Christian don’t address the arguments that I’ve seen coming from the atheist side. If they had been atheists like me, that’s exactly what they’d do (not for every audience, of course, but at least somewhere). That they don’t says that they aren’t familiar with those arguments or don’t have rebuttals to them; hence, they were not like me.

      When I present my arguments, I get rebuttals, but I want to see it the other way around. If I become a Christian, the first thing I’ll do is list the arguments that I found compelling and for which Christianity had no answer, and then answer them. That is, I’ll be active, not reactive. Of course, it’s possible that these ex-atheists know the arguments well but simply choose to avoid those conversations. Maybe they don’t much care about converting atheists like me. But I’ve seen no evidence of Christians who were atheists just like me, when, if they existed, I would’ve expected to see much evidence.

      Yet, when encouraged to read books which may challenge your preconceptions you don’t have the time?

      Surely this can’t seem odd to you. I’ve read many books by Christians on apologetics. At first, the arguments were largely new to me, and I enjoyed the challenge of evaluating them. But the books are becoming less interesting and more repetitive. I’ve heard “Oh, but this book will really knock your socks off” too many times.

      At any rate, I doubt that any argument would convince you.

      I will respond to any well-evidenced, correct argument like the average person would–perhaps reluctant initially (I have an ego, too), but I think I would fairly quickly research the question and (again, assuming that it’s correct) come around.

      The problem is, I haven’t seen such an argument.

      In other words, your guard is up whenever you are reading or hearing a Christian argument, in a way in which it is not when hearing the opposite point of view.

      Do you doubt that there is any Hindu or Shinto argument that will eventually convert you? I do. Are we at fault for having this attitude?

      I know far, far more about the pro-Christian arguments than about any arguments in favor of other religions, and I think that the emperor has no clothes for this Christianity, just like the rest.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        Bob, you say:

        You’ve gone down a different path than I’m on. I’m saying that atheists-turned-Christian don’t address the arguments that I’ve seen coming from the atheist side. If they had been atheists like me, that’s exactly what they’d do (not for every audience, of course, but at least somewhere). That they don’t says that they aren’t familiar with those arguments or don’t have rebuttals to them; hence, they were not like me.

        Yet in your original post you said:

        Group 3 includes the well-educated atheists. This group does understand the arguments on both sides of the issue. I put myself into this group (with justification, I hope).

        You have gone down a different path. A path that has involved you changing the definition from someone who “understand the arguments on both sides of the issue” to someone who “addresses the arguments that I’ve seen coming from the atheist side.”

        What you have done there is restricted who you are talking about to people who are dealing with the same issues that you are. Now it is highly possible that there have been well-educated atheists who understand the issues on both sides in the context they lived in, but they are not the same issues that you consider most important right now. This doesn’t mean that they were not well-educated. Maybe it means they were wired differently to you, lived in a different culture (both Peter Hitchens and Alister McGrath left atheism in the 70s or 80s in Europe/Britain), or some other reason.

        In any case, I think that Peter Hitchen’s quote about his brother is relevant here. Maybe there are no arguments that will convince you because you have set yourself up in such a way as to be protected from any argument for God, no matter how convincing it may be to another person. Maybe for you too the only way you could come to believe in God is through being surprised through poetry.

        Do you doubt that there is any Hindu or Shinto argument that will eventually convert you? I do. Are we at fault for having this attitude?

        I just think it is important for us to acknowledge that we all have such an attitude.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Now it is highly possible that there have been well-educated atheists who understand the issues on both sides in the context they lived in, but they are not the same issues that you consider most important right now.

          If well-educated atheists (PZ Myers, Dawkins, etc.) were to read my blog, I hope that they’d find a few gems in there that they hadn’t seen before. But there would be little of that. 90% of my arguments, they would have seen before (and likely written about themselves). Same for when I read their stuff.

          I am frequently delighted by a new analogy or a new connection or some new data. But I rarely see a new argument.

          So I disagree with what I take to be the main thrust of your point here. Any atheist who is well-versed in the current discussion will be familiar with these arguments. And therefore, if that atheist were to become a Christian, he would list all these (supposedly) strong arguments for atheism and show why they’re all wrong. What we see instead is Christians making the same old positive arguments for Christianity.

          Maybe there are no arguments that will convince you because you have set yourself up in such a way as to be protected from any argument for God, no matter how convincing it may be to another person.

          How do we distinguish this from what I think is the real situation: that I’m on the correct side of this issue, and Christian arguments are weak?

  • Retro

    In the same way, fear did play a role in his conversion to Christianity, although again was this a fear divorced from reason and logic?

    Why fear God? What logic and reasoning was there for Peter Hitchens to conclude that God was going to judge him, an afterlife exists, and that he was going to be damned? The fact that Peter Hitchens jumped straight from atheism to Christianity is very interesting. Theism and Christianity are not synonymous.

    It is all too easy to pretend that our head always rules our heart completely in issues like this.

    Do you think that all atheists would prefer there to be no God? I’d actually prefer it if there was a kind and loving God that cared and prevented bad things from happening and protected the weak. Although I’d prefer there to be a God, there really is no evidence IMO to justify belief.

    Unless you find some elaborate way to explain all the random pain and suffering away, the world around us demonstrates that if a supernatural being does exist, this God (or gods) doesn’t seem to care about man at all.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Retro:

      I’d actually prefer it if there was a kind and loving God that cared and prevented bad things from happening and protected the weak.

      Ditto. A reading of the Old Testament shows a violent and capricious god. That guy I don’t want to exist. A truly loving god (that Christians claim exists but which is denied in their own holy book) would be terrific.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    Retro,

    Why fear God? What logic and reasoning was there for Peter Hitchens to conclude that God was going to judge him, an afterlife exists, and that he was going to be damned? The fact that Peter Hitchens jumped straight from atheism to Christianity is very interesting. Theism and Christianity are not synonymous.

    Hypothetically, if God did exist and there was an afterlife, then fear is surely one of the logical responses someone can have, is it not? Remember, it wasn’t fear alone, but fear within the context of the other reasons he mentioned that brought about his conversion. And the fact he converted straight from atheism to Christianity is neither here nor there. The fact is that he converted away from atheism. What you want to show is that he did so without any real knowledge of what it really means to be an atheist, or the ability to defend himself against arguments against atheism. And if you read the article it is explicit that it was not a quick journey but a slow one.

    Do you think that all atheists would prefer there to be no God? I’d actually prefer it if there was a kind and loving God that cared and prevented bad things from happening and protected the weak. Although I’d prefer there to be a God, there really is no evidence IMO to justify belief.

    I don’t know where you got that idea from what I said. In my experience, most people who debate apologetic issues, no matter what side of the fence they’re on, would like to think that they are the holders of a dispassionate, logical view. That their views are not the result of grudges, rebellion, fears, insecurities, etc. So many McCoy’s trying to pretend they’re Spock. I’m a human, not a Vulcan – I suspect you are too, and I do not believe it weakens my position to say that my reactions to art, poetry, romance, injustice, tragedy, friendship and other things that move the heart influence me. The person who pretends that these things do not influence them, I suspect is deceiving themselves.

    In terms of explaining all the random pain and suffering away – I can’t. However, every worldview I have investigated has had a poorer explanation of this than Christianity. I can believe in a God that gets his hands dirty with the world’s crap.

    • Retro

      Hypothetically, if God did exist and there was an afterlife, then fear is surely one of the logical responses someone can have, is it not?

      Why assume anything? Hypothetically, if God did exist, and there was an afterlife, then maybe it would also be logical to think that God would accept everyone into heaven.

      There’s really no logic or reason to assume much of anthing about a hypothetical God is there? It seems that your only limitation is your imagination.

      And the fact he converted straight from atheism to Christianity is neither here nor there. The fact is that he converted away from atheism.

      The REASONS he converted is the point of our discussion. Maybe his book goes into more detail, but the impression he gives in the article is that it was mainly an emotional response.

      The person who pretends that these things do not influence them, I suspect is deceiving themselves.

      And as I was explaining, I don’t pretend that these things don’t influence me. In my case, these emotional things do influence me to want there to be a god. I’d prefer to live forever in an afterlife with all of my loved ones. But again, I realize that there must be evidence to justify belief in these things.

      Does it really seem logical or rational that atheists would ever be driven away from believing in God and/or the afterlife because of emotions?

      In terms of explaining all the random pain and suffering away – I can’t. However, every worldview I have investigated has had a poorer explanation of this than Christianity.

      What’s wrong with simply accepting that it’s random? Hurricanes and lightning strike at random, as do earthquakes, asteroids, and droughts.

  • Retro

    Here’s a link to an interview in which Alister McGrath talks about his conversion: http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/belief/scripts/alister_mcgrath.html

    Notice, Alister is actually asked why he jumped from a concept of god to the Christian God. Alister responded with answers like: “Here was something that seems to be right, that seems to be comprehensive and actually in its own way was really rather beautiful. And so that really grabbed me.”

    And when asked why he choose Christianity, and not some other religion, he responded: “Oh I don’t deny for one moment there are many other ways. I’m just saying the one that I found to be right, the one that I found to be most intellectually satisfactory, was this one.”

    When asked about the “god of the gaps”, Alister replied: “Well I think anybody who tries to base their belief in God on observation of things that science can’t prove at present is actually playing a very unwise and very unnecessary game. For me it’s not that there are gaps that can’t be explained. It is that the fact that one can explain at all that’s so exciting and so interesting. And for me explicability itself requires explanation. Why is it that we can make sense of anything? Why is it that mathematics – supposedly the free creation of the human mind – turns out to have such a close affinity with the way things actually are? And it seems to me that the, that our capacity to explain really needs explanation, and certainly if you’re a Christian, there’s a very ready explanation to hand, in terms of humanity bearing God’s image. There’s some correspondence between the divine rationality and a human rationality. So for me, that is the big picture, which I find most intellectually satisfying.”

    Did you catch what he said? He states it’s not that there are gaps that can’t be explained, but it’s that explanation itself needs to be explained. This is really doing nothing more than extending the ‘god of the gaps’ argument out to one more step.

    I don’t really see logic or evidence playing a big role in Alister McGrath’s conversion to Christianity. His explanations are filled with phrases like “seems to be right”, “seems to be comprehensive” and “seems to work”.

    There’s nothing wrong with impressions, feelings, and opinions, but these things are merely preferences, and preferences can’t prove that a god or an afterlife actually exists.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    Retro,
    I’m confused. You seem to be biting or chafing at things you’re imagining I’m saying.
    When I say

    It is all too easy to pretend that our head always rules our heart completely in issues like this.

    meaning that none of is the completely rational and logical creature some imagine themselves to be, you respond with:

    Do you think that all atheists would prefer there to be no God?

    As if I was saying that all atheists beliefs were a result of wish-fulfillment. I don’t know how you read that meaning into what I said.

    Now you say

    Does it really seem logical or rational that atheists would ever be driven away from believing in God and/or the afterlife because of emotions?

    And I’m confused, because I know of at least one, and I’m sure you do too, because it’s a famous case that is quoted often (it is a confession of the atheist’s as to why he is an atheist, not one of these “must have been missing a father-figure” suppositions) but given your track record so far in the conversation I have no idea what unintended meaning you are going to conjure out of what I say.

    What’s wrong with simply accepting that it’s random? Hurricanes and lightning strike at random, as do earthquakes, asteroids, and droughts.

    Maybe that’s the difference between us. I believe the universe is suffused with meaning. I don’t think that life is random. I don’t think that online conversations are random, hence my confusion at some of your responses.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl:

      I believe the universe is suffused with meaning. I don’t think that life is random.

      So you respond to Retro by saying that there is meaning behind hurricanes and lightning strikes? Why? What evidence points in that direction?

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        So you respond to Retro by saying that there is meaning behind hurricanes and lightning strikes? Why? What evidence points in that direction?

        To be honest I don’t come to the conclusion that there is meaning in the universe by observing hurricanes and lightning. I get there by other means.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          You said that the universe is suffused with meaning. Is it then a fair question to ask for the meaning behind natural disasters?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          You said that the universe is suffused with meaning. Is it then a fair question to ask for the meaning behind natural disasters?

          It is a fair question, an essential one, even. What do you suggest is the range of possible answers one could have to this question?

          And further, how would you evaluate these answers?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          I’ve heard the answers that you have: that God is preemptively taking out a future Hitler (but is God’s scalpel so dull that he must kill thousands of innocents as well?), that God is teaching us compassion (so barbarity and death now become compassion??), that God’s ways are not our ways (aren’t we made in God’s image? Can’t God follow his own rules of morality?), and so on.

          In the end, the answers always seem to devolve into “We just can’t understand God,” which IMO is just a dodge to resuscitate the God hypothesis.

          But this may not answer your question.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Bob,

          I’ve heard the answers that you have …

          I have some more, but we can come to those later. What are some answers that other worldviews have to the the meaning behind natural disasters?

        • Retro

          What are some answers that other worldviews have to the the meaning behind natural disasters?

          How about natural disasters are a result of blind natural forces, they are random, and there is no greater meaning.

          I’d like to hear your opinion about something Karl. There’s a place in the New Testament, and several in the Old Testament where the will of God was discovered by the casting of lots.

          Acts 1:24-26 Then they prayed, “Lord, you know everyone’s heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs.” Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

          Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

          What do you make of this practice of casting lots in the Bible? Is it random, or is God miraculously affecting the outcome of the dice? Should we still look for a hidden or greater meaning when rolling the dice today?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Retro,

          What do you make of this practice of casting lots in the Bible? Is it random, or is God miraculously affecting the outcome of the dice? Should we still look for a hidden or greater meaning when rolling the dice today?

          It is a clear teaching of the Bible that nothing happens that God does not allow.

          This was an established practice in the OT, but once the Holy Spirit was given this practice was not continued. In other words the Bible does not instruct Christians to look for guidance from God through lots, dice or other such. Our choices matter to God. Much more than dice. And this comes through in the OT as well.

          However I think you can probably assign meaning to whatever is riding on the outcome of the dice. If a national leader was rolling the dice to determine whether he was going to launch a nuclear strike, then the outcome would be a reflection on whether God was going to allow nuclear war or not.

          In a game of Monopoly, the outcome is whatever space you land on, and consequently who wins the game. I think we can agree that this outcome doesn’t matter as much as the first example, no matter what my kids think :-)

        • Retro

          This was an established practice in the OT, but once the Holy Spirit was given this practice was not continued.

          The Disciples already had the Holy Spirit according to John 20:22 which reads: “And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”

          In other words the Bible does not instruct Christians to look for guidance from God through lots, dice or other such.

          The Bible never condemns the practice either. The fact that the Disciples used lots after they received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22, and nothing bad happened and nothing negative was ever said, it’s logical to conclude that it’s still an acceptable practice.

          It simply seems odd to me that God personally showed up and was so specific and detailed on some occasions in the Bible, and then on other occasions He simply left things up to the casting of lots.

          However I think you can probably assign meaning to whatever is riding on the outcome of the dice.

          This reminds me of a joke. (Forgive me if you’ve heard it before.)

          Three Christians are discussing how much money they should give to God.

          The first Christian draws a circle on the ground and prays: “God, I’m going to throw my money in the air, and I’ll give you the money that lands inside the circle.”

          The second Christian also draws a circle on the ground and prays: “God, I’m going to throw my money in the air, and I’ll give you the money that lands outside the circle.”

          The third Christians doesn’t draw a circle at all, and prays: “God, I’m going to throw my money up in the air, take however much you want, and I’ll keep whatever lands on the floor.”

    • Retro

      meaning that none of is the completely rational and logical creature some imagine themselves to be

      What was your point in bringing up emotions? How you feel about the truth is one thing, how you know something is true is another. In the case of trying to determine something scientific, like if a god exists or not, I don’t see emotions doing anything but getting in the way.

      And I’m confused, because I know of at least one, and I’m sure you do too, because it’s a famous case that is quoted often (it is a confession of the atheist’s as to why he is an atheist

      To have any significant emotions towards God, one would have to believe that He actually exists. Someone who believes in God is not an atheist.

      I wouldn’t be happy if a tornado destroyed my house, but I wouldn’t actually hate the tornado, or start denying that tornados exist.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        What was your point in bringing up emotions? How you feel about the truth is one thing, how you know something is true is another. In the case of trying to determine something scientific, like if a god exists or not, I don’t see emotions doing anything but getting in the way.

        And get in the way they do, as they did for Aldous Huxley:
        I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption
        and as they no doubt also do for you and I.

        To have any significant emotions towards God, one would have to believe that He actually exists. Someone who believes in God is not an atheist.

        I wouldn’t be happy if a tornado destroyed my house, but I wouldn’t actually hate the tornado, or start denying that tornados exist.

        The issue is not so much whether you have emotions towards God. I’m not saying you’re an atheist because you’re angry with God. What I am saying is that you have a significant emotional investment in continuing to be an atheist, as I have a significant emotional investment in continuing to be a theist. To deny that this influences how we respond to arguments from one side or the other would be foolish and ignorant.

        • Retro

          And get in the way they do, as they did for Aldous Huxley:

          What source did you get this Huxley quote from? It’s not a completely accurate quote if it’s supposed to be from his book ‘Ends and Means’. I don’t have the time to get the book right now, but it seems that Huxley was explaining why he once accepted that philosophy, the problems he found with it, and then went on to explain why he came to reject it.

          I don’t know what Huxley believed at the time he wrote ‘Ends and Means”, but he joined a Vedanta Society shortly after the book was published.

          Ve·dan·ta (v-dänt, -dn-)
          n. Hinduism
          The system of philosophy that further develops the implications in the Upanishads that all reality is a single principle, Brahman, and teaches that the believer’s goal is to transcend the limitations of self-identity and realize one’s unity with Brahman.

          Wikipedia states: “Aldous Huxley was a humanist, pacifist, and satirist, and he was latterly interested in spiritual subjects such as parapsychology and philosophical mysticism. He is also well known for advocating and taking psychedelics.”

          Important question: Did Aldous Huxley ever call himself an atheist?

          I know several Christian authors have used this Huxley quote when discussing atheism, but Huxley wasn’t discussing atheism, so it really doesn’t have anything to do with atheism. (Rather than quote Huxley, these authors should stick to quoting Ecclesiastes.)

          I’m not saying you’re an atheist because you’re angry with God.

          Good. As you know, this is a worn out self-refuting argument that still gets used by way too many theists.

          What I am saying is that you have a significant emotional investment in continuing to be an atheist, as I have a significant emotional investment in continuing to be a theist. To deny that this influences how we respond to arguments from one side or the other would be foolish and ignorant.

          OK, but what’s your opinion about what we should do? Should we try to minimize these influences, or should we use these influences to guide our decisions?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          you have a significant emotional investment in continuing to be an atheist, as I have a significant emotional investment in continuing to be a theist.

          I doubt that this is as symmetrical as you suggest. I have no respect for faith, and I follow the evidence. Admittedly, I have an ego, and it would make me hang on to an old worldview longer than I should (I think we’re the same on this point). But on your side, you are held back by your respect for faith as well as all that hell stuff.

          My conclusion: I think I’d have a much easier time following evidence to change my mind on this matter than you.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Retro,

          OK, but what’s your opinion about what we should do? Should we try to minimize these influences, or should we use these influences to guide our decisions?

          we should at the very least acknowledge that these play a part in how we treat different claims.

          Bob,

          My conclusion: I think I’d have a much easier time following evidence to change my mind on this matter than you.

          I don’t see that there is much point in arguing about who is held back more by their ego/emotional attachment.

          It is enough that we understand that we all have reasons that are not logical for accepting or rejecting arguments.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    Retro,

    Did you catch what he said? He states it’s not that there are gaps that can’t be explained, but it’s that explanation itself needs to be explained. This is really doing nothing more than extending the ‘god of the gaps’ argument out to one more step.

    I think you are misunderstanding the “god of the gaps’ argument. It describes the attribution to God of the things that are mysterious to science. The existence of science is not something that is mysterious to science (ie a question that science’s answer to is “I don’t know”) but it is something which science is by definition unable to answer. Science will never discover why there is science, because it is not a scientific question.

    I don’t really see logic or evidence playing a big role in Alister McGrath’s conversion to Christianity. His explanations are filled with phrases like “seems to be right”, “seems to be comprehensive” and “seems to work”.

    There’s nothing wrong with impressions, feelings, and opinions, but these things are merely preferences, and preferences can’t prove that a god or an afterlife actually exists.

    Now I think you’re running into a cultural misunderstanding here. The British tend to express themselves a lot less dogmatically than Americans. I think it is unfair to say that he is merely stating a preference because he doesn’t express things in a dogmatic fashion. In fact, one of the main reasons he is probably speaking that way, is because he does not think it unreasonable that someone would come to a different conclusion, even though he thinks he himself has come to the true conclusion.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl:

      Science will never discover why there is science, because it is not a scientific question.

      Let’s grant that. What makes you think that you (or Christianity) can tell us why there’s science? Obviously, simply saying “Your approach can’t answer this” doesn’t mean that yours can.

    • Retro

      I think you are misunderstanding the “god of the gaps’ argument.

      This is the same thing as saying that everything needs a cause, and nothing comes from nothing… therefore God.

      When asked what caused God, or where did God come from, the definitions change, and God is defined as uncaused and eternal.

      This might work as a way to win an argument, but it is not evidence, and doesn’t prove anything.

      Science will never discover why there is science, because it is not a scientific question.

      I agree. And hypothetical and philosphical arguments are not going to get us the answer either. If a God does exist, and He/She/It wants us to know it, then this God is going to have to reveal it to us.

      In fact, one of the main reasons he is probably speaking that way, is because he does not think it unreasonable that someone would come to a different conclusion, even though he thinks he himself has come to the true conclusion.

      I agree.

      Now then, if it’s not unreasonable to come to his conclusion, and it’s not unreasonable to come to a different conclusion, then this tells us that it’s not a matter of reason… which is why I called it a preference. If there is more than one correct answer, then you can pick the one you prefer and still be correct.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        Now then, if it’s not unreasonable to come to his conclusion, and it’s not unreasonable to come to a different conclusion, then this tells us that it’s not a matter of reason… which is why I called it a preference. If there is more than one correct answer, then you can pick the one you prefer and still be correct.

        Please don’t misunderstand that I’m saying there is more than one correct answer to the question of whether or not there is a God. What I’m saying is that the evidence is not clearly in favour of one over the other to the point where one view is unsupportable. What you can’t say is that someone must be either willfully ignorant or stupid to take a different point of view.

        Which is why I’ve been arguing against Bob’s assertion that well-informed atheists don’t become Christians (but well-informed Christians do become atheists). It is akin to saying that atheists are atheists because they look at the evidence, but Christians are Christians because they ignore it. Now you and Bob may believe that, but it is difficult to continue a discussion where you believe that everything coming from my side of the debate is obfuscation and propaganda and you are the only ones in possession of any truth.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          It is akin to saying that atheists are atheists because they look at the evidence, but Christians are Christians because they ignore it.

          But that’s not my argument. I’m saying that a well-educated atheist turned Christian would know all the secret passwords and trap doors to get into my secret atheist lair. And, as a Christian, he would sneak back in and blow it up. But we never see this. Christians are making the same old arguments, banging on my Maginot Line with a rock hammer. I never see an “ex-atheist” who hits me where I live, who explains why my arguments are wrong from my perspective.

          By contrast, we do see the reverse: well-educated Christians turned atheists who carefully explain the reasons why they left–the craziness of hell, the problem of evil, the fact that the Bible looks just like a manmade book from the Late Iron Age would look, and so on. But the analogy is different here. Here, the atheist is using evidence artillery against a virtual bunker built out of faith.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Bob,

          I never see an “ex-atheist” who hits me where I live, who explains why my arguments are wrong from my perspective.

          As I’ve said there could be several reasons for this. The arguments that are so important to you may not have been that important to these ex-atheists for one reason or another. You may have non-rational reasons for not accepting the arguments of these non-atheists.

          By contrast, we do see the reverse: well-educated Christians turned atheists who carefully explain the reasons why they left–the craziness of hell, the problem of evil, the fact that the Bible looks just like a manmade book from the Late Iron Age would look, and so on. But the analogy is different here. Here, the atheist is using evidence artillery against a virtual bunker built out of faith.

          Oh, the irony. I do see that Christians who turn atheist raise important questions. But I actually find their arguments to be flawed.

          And I find your characterization that to progress one way is follow evidence and the other way is to ignore it to be rather patronizing. Sure, I may have non-rational reasons for not accepting their arguments, but I don’t see how you are any different regarding arguments going the other way.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          And I find your characterization that to progress one way is follow evidence and the other way is to ignore it to be rather patronizing.

          I have no use for faith in my life, just evidence. Evidence gets me to believe stuff, and contrary evidence gets me to reject beliefs.

          Is that the way it is for you? For many things, I’m sure it is. But for everything? If not, then you see the difference.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          I have no use for faith in my life, just evidence. Evidence gets me to believe stuff, and contrary evidence gets me to reject beliefs.

          Is that the way it is for you? For many things, I’m sure it is. But for everything? If not, then you see the difference.

          What do you do when the evidence isn’t clear? When there is conflicting evidence? Do you just stand there like a robot saying “Does not compute”? If you’re anything like all of the other people I know you will make a decision to trust the direction you best surmise the evidence points, to a conclusion that the evidence cannot get you all the way to.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Sure, that’s how I do it. I don’t see where faith comes in, though.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Sure, that’s how I do it. I don’t see where faith comes in, though.

          Faith (in the Christian sense) is a decision to trust the direction you best surmise the evidence points, to a conclusion that the evidence cannot get you all the way to.

          When I say I have faith, this is what I mean. So if I say that you have faith too, this is also what I mean.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          If evidence can’t get you all the way there, why go there? Why not simply reserve judgment?

          You’ve given examples where you simply must make a decision, and I agree with those. A business or battlefield decision, for example, almost by definition will happen with incomplete or imperfect information. But you’ve gotta do something, so you do the best you can.

          In the religion situation, you don’t have to make a decision. From the Christian side of the ditch, I’ll agree that it’s important to believe in Christianity to go to heaven, but before you make the decision, you’re not there! You’re back with me on the other side of the ditch. When evidence builds a bridge across, great, but it hasn’t done so yet. I’m not going to cross a bridge built of faith.

          This is what I mean when I say that I don’t see the symmetry that you suggest. You and I come at some issues differently.

        • Retro

          If evidence can’t get you all the way there, why go there? Why not simply reserve judgment?

          You’ve given examples where you simply must make a decision, and I agree with those. A business or battlefield decision, for example almost by definition will happen with incomplete or imperfect information. But you’ve gotta do something, so you do the best you can.

          And that’s the thing with religion, it forces you to make a quick decision. Evangelists like to remind you that eternity is only one heartbeat away… your next breath could be your last.

          And don’t forget that Jesus could also return at any moment. Growing up, it was very common for people to say things about us kids possibly being the first generation that would never die as we’d all be raptured. We were shown movies about the end times, like ‘A Thief In The Night’.

          None of these things are designed to give you time to really think about it first. It is all designed to scare one into making a quick emotional decision.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Looks like I’ve touched a nerve here.

          When I say

          What do you do when the evidence isn’t clear? When there is conflicting evidence? Do you just stand there like a robot saying “Does not compute”? If you’re anything like all of the other people I know you will make a decision to trust the direction you best surmise the evidence points, to a conclusion that the evidence cannot get you all the way to.

          You say

          Sure, that’s how I do it. I don’t see where faith comes in, though.

          But then when I say that this is what is called faith, suddenly you’re saying

          If evidence can’t get you all the way there, why go there? Why not simply reserve judgment?

          My answer is that in almost all cases in life, the evidence doesn’t take us all the way there, and in a lot of cases, the evidence is so conflicted or unclear that there is a significant amount of trust needed for us to make any decision.

          You’ve given examples where you simply must make a decision, and I agree with those. A business or battlefield decision, for example, almost by definition will happen with incomplete or imperfect information. But you’ve gotta do something, so you do the best you can.

          Actually I don’t remember giving any examples. But I can take one you have given – voting to illustrate my point. Two candidates have different plans for how to run the country, both of the candidates will back their plans up with evidence for why they are the best plans for the country, but neither of them has evidence so strong that it is impossible to argue that their plan is not the best for the country. On the day of voting you cast your vote indicating that you trust that candidate to run the country according to their stated plan. It is possible that a candidate will not fulfill their plan either because their plan was unworkable, they were unable to implement it, or maybe they flat out lied. But everyone who votes puts their faith in the candidate they vote for.

          Evidence and faith work together in almost every decision we make in life, whether it is buying a house, choosing a retirement plan, getting married, taking a taxi, asking someone for directions, deciding which computer or phone to buy.

          In the religion situation, you don’t have to make a decision. From the Christian side of the ditch, I’ll agree that it’s important to believe in Christianity to go to heaven, but before you make the decision, you’re not there! You’re back with me on the other side of the ditch. When evidence builds a bridge across, great, but it hasn’t done so yet. I’m not going to cross a bridge built of faith.

          A lot of the examples I mentioned are of the same order. You can decide not to buy the house, not to get married, etc. If someone without a retirement plan said that they didn’t get a retirement plan because there was none that they could buy without faith, would you conclude that they were following the evidence completely in choosing to not have a retirement plan? Or were they instead placing faith in living without a retirement plan?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          None of these things are designed to give you time to really think about it first. It is all designed to scare one into making a quick emotional decision.

          Retro, I am sorry that your unpleasant experiences in the church have so coloured your thinking. Would you be able to set aside your emotions about this topic to consider what I am saying? Can you see that I’m not pushing you to make a quick a decision?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          My answer is that in almost all cases in life, the evidence doesn’t take us all the way there, and in a lot of cases, the evidence is so conflicted or unclear that there is a significant amount of trust needed for us to make any decision.

          Give me an example that you think is analogous to the religious question. I can see none.

          I suppose I could invent one where the evidence is for option A but you have some sort of gut feel that option B is actually the correct choice. (I don’t know if this touches on anything you think is relevant.)

          Is this based on evidence? Is a part of your brain seeing something that you simply can’t put into words or probabilities? If so, then this conclusion is (vaguely) evidence based. If not, then you’re in the domain of psychics. I have no use for that kind of thinking.

          Another thought: in no area of life is there an equivalent of Pascal’s Wager (“You better go this way or you’ll fry forever!”).

          If you don’t have the evidence to conclude something … then just don’t conclude it.

          Evidence and faith work together in almost every decision we make in life, whether it is buying a house, choosing a retirement plan, getting married, taking a taxi, asking someone for directions, deciding which computer or phone to buy.

          What is this “faith” you keep talking about? If it’s completely evidence based (or based on evaluating what evidence we do have), then call it trust and don’t use the f-word. In particular, would contrary evidence make you reject such a decision? If so, then that’s not faith. If not, then why hold that position??

          You seem to be confusing what I think of as faith with simply making a decision given incomplete information. That’s not faith (at least how I define it).

        • Retro

          Retro, I am sorry that your unpleasant experiences in the church have so coloured your thinking. Would you be able to set aside your emotions about this topic to consider what I am saying?

          Which do you think colors a persons thinking more, an unpleasant experience, or the belief in eternal conscious torment?

          Can you see that I’m not pushing you to make a quick a decision?

          I don’t think you personally are pushing me to make a quick decision, and I didn’t wish to imply that you were.

          I don’t know what your personal beliefs are concerning the doctrines of Hell and the Second Coming, but you must admit that many churches have exploited these doctrines for many centuries. These doctrines are essentially threats of violence, and threats of violence generally reduce rational thinking and encourage quick and uninformed decisions.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Give me an example that you think is analogous to the religious question. I can see none.

          How about, “Should you vote for a change in government?”
          There will be conflicting evidence. The question, “Will this alternative be better than the current government?” cannot be answered definitively. You must choose to either trust in what is being promised for change, or trust in the status quo being better than what is being proposed by the alternative.

          What is this “faith” you keep talking about? If it’s completely evidence based (or based on evaluating what evidence we do have), then call it trust and don’t use the f-word. In particular, would contrary evidence make you reject such a decision? If so, then that’s not faith. If not, then why hold that position??

          You seem to be confusing what I think of as faith with simply making a decision given incomplete information. That’s not faith (at least how I define it).

          Trust and faith are synonyms. Trust comes from a Norse word, and faith from a Latin word, but they have essentially the same meaning. If using faith is going to cause you so many problems then we can stick to using trust

        • Bob Seidensticker

          There will be conflicting evidence.

          And incomplete evidence. Yes, we’re already on the same page here.

          But there’s no faith in this situation. At least, this doesn’t seem at all like what most Christians mean when they say “faith.” You may have a different definition, but I doubt that.

          You could pick one side on a political question and then ignore all contrary evidence going forward to preserve in your mind your opinion that you’re right. Some people do that. But that’s not evidence-based thinking.

          Trust and faith are synonyms.

          Then why ever use the word “faith” when discussing with atheists? It only confuses. If you can use “trust” instead, doing so will avoid confusion.

          My guess is that you have different words because, in some situations, they aren’t synonyms for you.

          (I want to research this faith vs. trust question and post on that in the near future.)

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Then why ever use the word “faith” when discussing with atheists? It only confuses. If you can use “trust” instead, doing so will avoid confusion

          I tried, but when you say …

          I have no use for faith in my life, just evidence.

          and

          I don’t see where faith comes in, though.

          then had I kept on talking using only the word trust, and not mentioning or defining faith, I’m sure you would have felt I was avoiding the issue.

          So I think I’m perfectly justified using the word as long as I clearly define what I mean when I use it, as I did:

          Faith (in the Christian sense) is a decision to trust the direction you best surmise the evidence points, to a conclusion that the evidence cannot get you all the way to.

          When I say I have faith, this is what I mean. So if I say that you have faith too, this is also what I mean.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          then had I kept on talking using only the word trust, and not mentioning or defining faith, I’m sure you would have felt I was avoiding the issue.

          Absolutely not. I would’ve thought you were that rare Christian who says that faith and trust are synonyms and actually walks the walk.

          So I think I’m perfectly justified using the word as long as I clearly define what I mean when I use it, as I did:

          Do what you must, but I’d really prefer that you avoid the f-word (if “trust” really is synonymous).

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          OK. I’ll use trust wherever I can instead of faith (ie pretty much everywhere I’m not quoting someone else)

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    Bob,

    What makes you think that you (or Christianity) can tell us why there’s science? Obviously, simply saying “Your approach can’t answer this” doesn’t mean that yours can.

    I’ll let McGrath answer that one himself:
    And it seems to me that the, that our capacity to explain really needs explanation, and certainly if you’re a Christian, there’s a very ready explanation to hand, in terms of humanity bearing God’s image. There’s some correspondence between the divine rationality and a human rationality. So for me, that is the big picture, which I find most intellectually satisfying.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      This doesn’t answer my question. The Pastafarian could invent his version of this nonsensical answer, but neither of us would be impressed. Why accept this pablum from the Christian?

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        This doesn’t answer my question. The Pastafarian could invent his version of this nonsensical answer, but neither of us would be impressed. Why accept this pablum from the Christian?

        Anyone who is impressed by a Pastafarian response seriously needs to get out more :-)

        The notion of humans bearing the image of God is not something that I think can be so easily dismissed as nonsense. That you are so quick to dismiss this makes me think that you don’t really understand it at all.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Then I must not understand it.

          “God grounds science” is helpful only after we understand that God exists. This fragment from McGrath simply presumes God.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          “God grounds science” is helpful only after we understand that God exists. This fragment from McGrath simply presumes God.

          What he is saying is that our capacity to explain is best explained by our being made in the image of God. ie that this explanation is better than all the others.

          Interestingly, there’s a brief video just gone up where Alister McGrath talks about his beliefs

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          What he is saying is that our capacity to explain is best explained by our being made in the image of God. ie that this explanation is better than all the others.

          Made in the image of who??

          Who is this “God” dude, and how do I know that he even frikkin’ exists? That’s the problem.

          To say “[Fill in ungrounded God claim here] grounds science” is pretty, y’know, ungrounded.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          To say “[Fill in ungrounded God claim here] grounds science” is pretty, y’know, ungrounded.

          OK, let’s take a step back and slow down a little here.

          We have a problem, the problem of why humans have a capacity to explain things.

          We look at the different possible explanations for why this could be. Which one explains things best?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          We have a problem, the problem of why humans have a capacity to explain things.

          Is that the topic? I thought it was your claim that God grounds things and my response that this is an empty claim without first showing that God exists.

          We look at the different possible explanations for why this could be. Which one explains things best?

          You’re asking why humans have intelligence? Or what?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Is that the topic? I thought it was your claim that God grounds things and my response that this is an empty claim without first showing that God exists.

          I think so? Do you want to check back on the McGrath quote?

          I think a fair summary of what he was saying is that “we need to explain our ability to explain things, and he thinks the Christian explanation is the best one.”

          Are you reading things differently?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          First: it’d be nice to explain our ability to explain things. It’s certainly a valid question to ask. But it’s not like anything hangs in the balance here. It’s not like science is held up until we can figure out this grounding question. (And I’m not even sure that this grounding question is meaningful.)

          Second: if we fail to agree on what grounds science, that’s fine. It’s not like the bomb will go off in 5 seconds, so we might as well just randomly pick whether to snip the red wire or the blue one. That is, there’s no pressure here to decide.

          Third: yes, I agree that he thinks the Christian explanation does the trick. And my point (again) is that he offers this outlandish explanation with zero evidence that the supernatural being he points to actually exists. That might be sufficient for Christians; it’s not for me.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Third: yes, I agree that he thinks the Christian explanation does the trick. And my point (again) is that he offers this outlandish explanation with zero evidence that the supernatural being he points to actually exists. That might be sufficient for Christians; it’s not for me.

          OK, so we’re mainly in agreement, the big sticking point as far as you’re concerned is the evidence for God’s existence, am I right?

          Are there any other sticking points? Because I’ve posted elsewhere (briefly) about the evidence for God and in particular Jesus. I imagine that this would be some of what McGrath would supply in terms of evidence for God’s existence.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          Of course, we could talk about a myriad of things, but this is the problem that comes out of McGrath’s “explanation.”

          If you want to present evidence for the existence of God or the supernatural character of Jesus, that would be fine. My main point was that McGrath’s grounding was completely ungrounded (to those of us who have no god belief).

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          If you want to present evidence for the existence of God or the supernatural character of Jesus, that would be fine. My main point was that McGrath’s grounding was completely ungrounded (to those of us who have no god belief).

          From what I understood, McGrath was giving a brief answer to the point that there was a certain issue that was problematic but that which Christianity had a good explanation for, that he considered the best available. Is it fair to blame him for not going into an in-depth defense of the existence of God at each such point in a conversation?

          If you think evolution provides a better explanation to the geographical limitation of species than the flood (eg koalas, kangaroos, llamas, etc) do you need to go into an in-depth defense of evolution for that? I think not.

          Surely in both cases it is sufficient to say, “This explanation deals with this problem better than all the others in my opinion.”

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Is it fair to blame him for not going into an in-depth defense of the existence of God at each such point in a conversation?

          Of course not. That his was simply a vast statement with no support was all I’ve been saying.

          Going back to your original point: you said that science has no grounding within science; I said that even if that’s true, Christianity has no better answer; you gave McGrath’s quote that said that Christianity does; and I said that an assertion of a claim in a vacuum (particularly one as huge as this) is meaningless without evidence.

          And I think you’re agreeing with me now.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Of course not. That his was simply a vast statement with no support was all I’ve been saying.

          No support was provided in the context the answer was given.

          I said that an assertion of a claim in a vacuum (particularly one as huge as this) is meaningless without evidence.

          McGrath mentioned us being created in the image of God. This imago dei is evidenced in everything that we observe sets us apart from the animals.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          No support was provided in the context the answer was given.

          Are we simply in violent agreement?

          This imago dei is evidenced in everything that we observe sets us apart from the animals.

          Maybe you see it, but I don’t see it. Again, simply handwaving a god into existence doesn’t do anything for me.

    • Retro

      There’s some correspondence between the divine rationality and a human rationality.

      If there is a correspondence, one could say this is because man has created God.

      I have yet to have a discussion about God’s rationality without it ending in with the statement that “we humans simply cannot understand God.”

      If you are getting your ideas about God from the Bible, I fail to see how God’s rationality is anything like human rationality. What is rational about an infinite being ordering His followers tio kill children and infants? What is rational about requiring an innocent sacrifice in order to forgive sins? What is rational about torturing humans for an eternity for simply not believing?

      So for me, that is the big picture, which I find most intellectually satisfying.

      And for me, I find that the concept of a god brings up more questions than it answers.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    And for me, I find that the concept of a god brings up more questions than it answers.

    Well, it is certainly bringing up questions a lot faster than I can supply the answers. :-)

    It takes a lot more time to provide a thoughtful response to a question than it does to simply ask the question.

    It would probably help if you identified the questions you really wanted answered because there are so many, and I suspect that not all of them are of equal importance to you.

    As to a couple of the ones you just asked:

    If there is a correspondence, one could say this is because man has created God.

    It’s easy for us to imagine inventing the idea of God now, but I actually think that it would be impossible to invent the concept of God. It’s a long discussion. I’ve talked with Bob on it some before.

    I have yet to have a discussion about God’s rationality without it ending in with the statement that “we humans simply cannot understand God.”

    I will say this much, that we cannot fully understand God, and if we could then he would not be God – he would be something man-made. But we can understand enough to place our trust in him. That there are some things we do not understand about God I find to be an unusual deal-breaker, because there is not a single person we understand completely, not even ourselves.

    • Retro

      But we can understand enough to place our trust in him.

      Why exactly do you trust God? What personal experiences have you had that allows you to place your trust in God?

      Can you give me an example of something that we can understand about God?

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        Why exactly do you trust God?

        I trust God because I find the accounts of Jesus in the Bible trustworthy, that Jesus was indeed God in human form, that he died, and that he rose again.

        I find that the Bible explains what I observe about human life, and the universe around me better than any other belief system I have come across..

        What personal experiences have you had that allows you to place your trust in God?

        When who Jesus was and what he did was first clearly explained to me ( or the first time I listened clearly, I can’t be sure which it was) I was compelled by a sense that no matter how much I didn’t want to change my life, I could not ignore this. Since then I have experienced a life where God has provided needs for me, answered prayers, directed and guided me in many (usually subtle) ways.

        Can you give me an example of something that we can understand about God?

        Jesus is the clearest picture of God we can have in this world. If you want to know what God is like, he’s just like Jesus.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          I find the accounts of Jesus in the Bible trustworthy, that Jesus was indeed God in human form, that he died, and that he rose again.

          And did you conclude this by the same thought process that you use when deciding any other important decision in your life–say, who to vote for or the correct position on some moral issue?

          I have experienced a life where God has provided needs for me, answered prayers, directed and guided me in many (usually subtle) ways.

          Is it possible that you are simply seeing life through God-colored glasses and seeing his hand because of your own desire or preconception rather than evidence?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          And did you conclude this by the same thought process that you use when deciding any other important decision in your life–say, who to vote for or the correct position on some moral issue?

          I’ve probably given it more thought than those, certainly who to vote for, and I can’t off the top of my head think of a moral issue I have wrestled with more deeply.

          Is it possible that you are simply seeing life through God-colored glasses and seeing his hand because of your own desire or preconception rather than evidence?

          It’s certainly possible

        • Bob Seidensticker

          I’ve probably given it more thought than those

          I’m not surprised, but this doesn’t answer the question. I’m wondering if the type of thought process was the same or if you got to your God conclusion with a different type of process.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          I’m not surprised, but this doesn’t answer the question. I’m wondering if the type of thought process was the same or if you got to your God conclusion with a different type of process.

          I guess so, but I’m not really sure what you’re getting at.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          I’m guessing that your approach to your conclusion (that the gospel story is trustworthy) is different from the evidence-based one that we all know and trust. I don’t have much respect for conclusions that were reached via faith.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          I’m guessing that your approach to your conclusion (that the gospel story is trustworthy) is different from the evidence-based one that we all know and trust. I don’t have much respect for conclusions that were reached via faith.

          Why would you make such an assumption?

          As I’ve mentioned previously, all of our conclusions are tainted by non-rational reasons. Maybe I voted for someone because he reminded me of someone I trust (in the way he looked or spoke), or because the other candidate turned me off with something he said that made me colour everything else I heard him say. Maybe I didn’t really care too much about the candidates on offer and made a less than fully-thought through vote.

          Maybe I went along with the crowd on a certain moral issue. Maybe I wanted to assert by individuality by not going along with the crowd.

          Could any of these sort of non-rational thought processes influenced my decision to trust the gospel story? I guess so. But I do know that I have given more thought and conducted more investigation of the evidence than for any of these other things that you have raised. And not just on one side – I’ve read Dawkins, and Hitchens (Christopher), and I’m reading what you’re posting, aren’t I? I enjoy listening to the Unbelievable podcast because I like to hear both sides of the issue in a non-parochial atmosphere.

          And you can’t seem to get past that I must have just suppressed all the evidence and summoned up a mighty leap of faith to believe in God.

          I can understand that you interpret the evidence differently to me. Why can’t you allow me the same understanding?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          As I’ve mentioned previously, all of our conclusions are tainted by non-rational reasons.

          Again, I reject this suggestion of symmetry. There is drawing conclusions based on evidence (and rejecting existing beliefs based on counter-evidence) and there’s faith. I don’t use that.

          You repeated that you put much time and effort into the religion question, and I’ll repeat that I believe you. But time isn’t the issue.

          And you can’t seem to get past that I must have just suppressed all the evidence and summoned up a mighty leap of faith to believe in God.

          If you’re saying that you have no use for faith and everything is based on evidence (to the best of your imperfect ability), OK. Join the club. Otherwise, I think we approach some things differently.

        • Retro

          I trust God because I find the accounts of Jesus in the Bible trustworthy, that Jesus was indeed God in human form, that he died, and that he rose again.

          What would it take to disprove the Biblical accounts of Jesus being divine, dying, and resurrecting? If you’re like most theists I have asked, you would say it would take witnessing the dead body of Jesus.

          I’ll tell you right now, it would take witnessing the living body of Jesus before I could believe. (Since Jesus is still physically alive, I don’t see why it’d be unreasonable for Jesus to visit me physically just like he did with Thomas and the other early Christians.)

          If it’s unreasonable for me to require witnessing the living body of Jesus Christ to believe, then it should also be unreasonable for Christians to require the dead body of Jesus Christ to not believe.

          Since then I have experienced a life where God has provided needs for me, answered prayers, directed and guided me in many (usually subtle) ways.

          My experience as a Christian was the opposite. The Bible is full of stories where God is not subtle. Today God is so subtle, there appears to be no difference between God’s actions and random events. Since the Disciples casted lots to determine God’s will when replacing Judas, it really makes me wonder how many other random things the Disciples interpreted as being the will of God. What sense does it make for God to something subtle like affecting the outcome of a roll of the dice, but then just a short time later He does something big and miraculous at the day of Pentecost?

          Jesus is the clearest picture of God we can have in this world.

          How do you account for all the different denominations and their differing views of Jesus?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Retro,

          What would it take to disprove the Biblical accounts of Jesus being divine, dying, and resurrecting? If you’re like most theists I have asked, you would say it would take witnessing the dead body of Jesus.

          It wouldn’t take just one thing, because my faith isn’t dependent on just one thing. And I’m not saying this to be facetious. Honestly, if I was to at some point no longer believe in God, I can’t imagine it being because of just one thing but rather an accumulation of things to the point where this accumulation tipped the scales, so to speak.

          Any evidence needs to be interpreted. And if the body of Jesus was found, there would be believers convinced it must be a hoax. Similarly, if God really did appear to some atheists who likewise would be convinced that they were the victim of a David Copperfield illusion.

          If it’s unreasonable for me to require witnessing the living body of Jesus Christ to believe, then it should also be unreasonable for Christians to require the dead body of Jesus Christ to not believe.

          I don’t know that unreasonable is the word I’d use. In my opinion in both cases, they are probably a reflection that someone is unwilling to reconsider their interpretation of the available evidence.

          How do you account for all the different denominations and their differing views of Jesus?

          Pretty much all denominations subscribe to the major creeds. Yes, there is debate between the Eastern Orthodox and Western Church considering one phrase in the Nicene creed, but other than that I think there is pretty unanimous agreement in the rest of the Nicene creed, and all of the Apostle’s creed, and the Athanasian creed. All the really important stuff is in these creeds. Any denomination that doesn’t affirm these creeds is in all likelihood a cult (and this could work as a simple working definition of a cult)

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl:

      It’s easy for us to imagine inventing the idea of God now, but I actually think that it would be impossible to invent the concept of God.

      I assume you’re referring just to the Christian God. I’m sure we agree that people around the world and throughout history have invented lots and lots of gods. What makes the Christian god so special?

      we cannot fully understand God, and if we could then he would not be God – he would be something man-made.

      OK, our finite brains can’t fully understand the infinite. But they can sure handle a lot more than God gives us right now. The Problem of Divine Hiddenness is a showstopper for me. When God has all the properties of a nonexistent being, I’m not moved to believe.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        I assume you’re referring just to the Christian God. I’m sure we agree that people around the world and throughout history have invented lots and lots of gods. What makes the Christian god so special?

        In Bad News, guitarist Vim Fuego says “I could play “Stairway To Heaven” when I was 12. Jimmy Page didn’t actually write it until he was 22. I think that says quite a lot.”

        Unfortunately it doesn’t say what he thinks it does (that he’s a better guitarist than Jimmy Page), but something else, that someone who cannot invent can copy.

        What I am saying is that there is a problem with the first invention of God. I don’t think it can happen. Once you have a concept of God, you can, but before then, I believe it to be impossible.

        OK, our finite brains can’t fully understand the infinite. But they can sure handle a lot more than God gives us right now. The Problem of Divine Hiddenness is a showstopper for me. When God has all the properties of a nonexistent being, I’m not moved to believe.

        I do not deny that the hiddenness of God is a problem. The question I would like to ask is “If God exists, why should he reveal more than he already has?”

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          What I am saying is that there is a problem with the first invention of God. I don’t think it can happen. Once you have a concept of God, you can, but before then, I believe it to be impossible.

          Humans can’t invent the concept of a god? That sounds pretty far-fetched. What’s your argument?

          And every god was inspired by hearing about some prior god? So then the real god inspired the first religion, what, 10 thousand years ago? Or 20 or 30?

          That doesn’t support your Yahweh hypothesis, since he was a Johnny-come-lately from less than 3000 years ago.

          If God exists, why should he reveal more than he already has?

          A trick question, perhaps?

          Because God loves us more than we love ourselves and because we all roast in hell unless we believe in the whole God/Jesus thing. God’s got a pretty enormous motivation to help us with this belief thing. There’s no plausible reason for staying hidden.

          Unless, of course, he can’t reveal himself because he is actually imaginary.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Humans can’t invent the concept of a god? That sounds pretty far-fetched. What’s your argument?

          Humans don’t create ex nihilo. We construct from what we’ve got, whether it be in the physical world or the world of ideas. No one has ever had a completely original idea in the history of the world. They’ve just taken an existing idea and put it in a different context.

          That doesn’t support your Yahweh hypothesis, since he was a Johnny-come-lately from less than 3000 years ago.

          Not necessarily. The Bible affirms pre-Abrahamic religion (eg Melchizedek) which in all likelihood was ancient at that time and had no writings.

          Because God loves us more than we love ourselves and because we all roast in hell unless we believe in the whole God/Jesus thing. God’s got a pretty enormous motivation to help us with this belief thing. There’s no plausible reason for staying hidden.

          So he comes down to earth in human form, preaches publicly, is arrested, crucified, and rises from the dead and commissions the witnesses to spread this news.

          Why is this not enough?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          No one has ever had a completely original idea in the history of the world. They’ve just taken an existing idea and put it in a different context.

          Well … kinda. But an evolving idea of God–from the snapping of a twig in a dark forest, to vague spook, to intelligence in the things around us (rocks, trees, etc.), to gods of various features of nature (thunder, fire, sea), to a Roman-like pantheon, to a monotheism, to a monotheism with the god being omnipotent and omniscient–sounds quite plausible to me. You need a compelling argument to convince me otherwise.

          The Bible affirms pre-Abrahamic religion (eg Melchizedek) which in all likelihood was ancient at that time and had no writings.

          So the Yahweh concept is simply version 3 or 4 or 5 of an original from thousands of years earlier? Doesn’t say much about the reality of Yahweh then.

          Why is this not enough?

          You’ve gotta be kidding. It’s a story, little different from the stories of a hundred other religions. Why imagine that the Jesus story is any better than the Mormon story or Hindu story or any other?

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    Well … kinda. But an evolving idea of God–from the snapping of a twig in a dark forest, to vague spook, to intelligence in the things around us (rocks, trees, etc.), to gods of various features of nature (thunder, fire, sea), to a Roman-like pantheon, to a monotheism, to a monotheism with the god being omnipotent and omniscient–sounds quite plausible to me. You need a compelling argument to convince me otherwise.

    What you have given is a common suggestion of the evolution of religions. I find it problematic on a few points. The first is that the earliest religious writings we have refer to one supreme God.

    The second is that there are attributes of the Christian God that I don’t think can be explained in such a way.

    So the Yahweh concept is simply version 3 or 4 or 5 of an original from thousands of years earlier? Doesn’t say much about the reality of Yahweh then.

    No. I’m just pointing out that there are indications that Yahweh worship extends back before it was written about.

    You’ve gotta be kidding. It’s a story, little different from the stories of a hundred other religions. Why imagine that the Jesus story is any better than the Mormon story or Hindu story or any other?

    Two reasons. It happened, and it explains this world and the human experience better than any other story.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl:

      Your claim that mankind couldn’t invent the idea of god but could only tweak an idea already put there by an actual god is still unbelievable. If all you’re stating is that this is your belief, that’s fine, but I see no evidence.

      It happened…

      That’s it? That’s all you’ll give me?

      Yeah–you’re a Christian, so you think it happened. But this doesn’t help me out. I have no god belief, remember?

      it explains this world and the human experience better than any other story.

      Could be, but let me point you to a naturalistic view of the world. There are natural reasons behind natural disasters, life, and the origin of the universe. That explains things far better than any story.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    That’s it? That’s all you’ll give me?

    Yeah–you’re a Christian, so you think it happened. But this doesn’t help me out. I have no god belief, remember?

    Compared to the examples you gave me, the historicity of the life and death of Christ, and the establishment and history of the early church compares extremely favourably to Hinduism (which makes little to no historical claims) and Mormonism (whose historical claims are dodgy in the extreme). If you limit the religions making history claims to those with a reasonable credibility history-wise, you end up with a very short list.

    Could be, but let me point you to a naturalistic view of the world. There are natural reasons behind natural disasters, life, and the origin of the universe. That explains things far better than any story.

    Ah, but the naturalistic view of the world also has it’s own meta-narrative. In other words, it too is a story of how the world came to be the way it is. And I find the Christian story explains things better (especially the human experience).

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Whaaa … ? You think conventional Christianity has a better historical record than Mormonism? I must disagree.

      First off, the story reads like weak science fiction. We agree that it’s nonsense. But it’s competing against Christianity, whose historical record is flimsy.

      The historical evidence for Mormonism is written in modern English. Compare that to the gulf we must cross to understand the language, times, and customs of the time of Jesus. We have newspaper articles written (again, in modern English) about the early days of the Mormon church; compare that to gospels written decades after the supposed life of Jesus. And we have much that Joseph Smith wrote himself.

      You’ll point out that the claims of Joseph Smith have been refuted. And I agree. But the claims of Jesus are unrefutable!

      Of course, they’re dead on arrival in my mind because they’re supernatural. But that’s not much of an obstacle for you, so we needn’t go there.

      Mormonism beats conventional Christianity on every point of evidence.

      You say the early church grew quickly? Check out Sathya Sai Baba–he had millions convinced that he could do miracles in his own lifetime! Jesus died with a few hundred followers at most.

      Ah, but the naturalistic view of the world also has it’s own meta-narrative. In other words, it too is a story of how the world came to be the way it is.

      That evidence exists and can be trusted? OK, I guess. But these assumptions have been tested and have been found reliable. Show me how the Christian worldview explains things better.

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    But it’s competing against Christianity, whose historical record is flimsy.

    Really? I think you’ll find the vast majority of relevant scholars consider Christianity’s historical record to be largely accurate.

    The historical evidence for Mormonism is written in modern English. Compare that to the gulf we must cross to understand the language, times, and customs of the time of Jesus. We have newspaper articles written (again, in modern English) about the early days of the Mormon church; compare that to gospels written decades after the supposed life of Jesus. And we have much that Joseph Smith wrote himself.

    I’m sure you have no desire to be an apologist for Mormonism but two points that must be made are that firstly, Mormonism’s claims for pre-Joseph Smith history are, ahem, best not mentioned if you want to be taken seriously, and second, Joseph Smith’s record for telling the truth wasn’t the flashest.

    Mormonism beats conventional Christianity on every point of evidence.

    Which makes this claim of yours extremely suspect

    You say the early church grew quickly?

    No, I didn’t. I said (or at least my implication was) it was historically well-documented.

    That evidence exists and can be trusted? OK, I guess. But these assumptions have been tested and have been found reliable. Show me how the Christian worldview explains things better.

    Um, that’s not the meta-narrative for naturalism. Naturalism’s meta-narrative is more along the lines that in one small outpost of the universe, life has managed to start, develop and flourish despite the enormous obstacles, of chance, etc until it is ultimately extinguished by the forces of nature.

    What you mention about evidence, etc is something that is held common to most worldviews, and not something unique to naturalism at all. Naturalism’s meta-narrative’s main weakness is its failure to account for our search for meaning and truth. Homo sapiens sapiens is either a dead end, or a stepping stone on the way to a dead end.

    • Retro

      I think you’ll find the vast majority of relevant scholars consider Christianity’s historical record to be largely accurate.

      Did Joseph Smith exist? Did Joseph Smith start Mormonism? Did the Mormons start the town of Nauvoo, and then migrate to Utah?

      The historical record of Joseph Smith and his followers are also largely accurate.

      Mormonism’s claims for pre-Joseph Smith history are, ahem, best not mentioned if you want to be taken seriously,…

      And the pre-Jesus Christ history in the Old testament is unhistorical as well. Think about the Garden of Eden, Noah’s Ark and the Flood, the Tower of Babel, the Exodus, the Canaanite Conquest, etc.

      Joseph Smith’s record for telling the truth wasn’t the flashest.

      And Jesus didn’t even write anything Himself.

      If the Mormons waited for forty years to start writing down what Joseph Smith said and did, I’m sure they could have fixed it up so that Joseph Smith wasn’t a liar, and they could have also put in some prophecies that he made that came true.

      No, I didn’t. I said (or at least my implication was) it was historically well-documented.

      And it’s the same thing with Christianity. When contemporary historians are reporting about Christianity, they are simply reporting that this movement existed, and reported what they believed. These contemporary historians were not reporting that they had actually seen Jesus, or His claims were true, or that any of the events in the New testamant actually took place.

      Where are the contemporary historians’ accounts of the Star of Bethleham and the Slaughter of the Innocents that occured when Jesus was born? Where are the contemporary historians’ accounts of the earthquake and darkness that occured at the Crucifixion?

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl:

      I think you’ll find the vast majority of relevant scholars consider Christianity’s historical record to be largely accurate.

      I agree, but so what? You’ll find that the vast majority of Muslim scholars think that it’s not.

      Maybe religious scholars are biased … ?

      I’m sure you have no desire to be an apologist for Mormonism

      Correct. I don’t think the Mormon story is any more accurate than the Christian one.

      Mormonism’s claims for pre-Joseph Smith history are, ahem, best not mentioned if you want to be taken seriously, and second, Joseph Smith’s record for telling the truth wasn’t the flashest.

      Agreed. But why imagine that the gospel story is any more accurate?

      Joseph Smith saw an angel. Jesus Christ was raised from the dead. I reject them both.

      Which makes this claim of yours extremely suspect

      How does this rebut my claim that the Mormon argument beats the Christian one on every point (age of story, amount of documentation, language of the history, etc.)?

      Naturalism’s meta-narrative’s main weakness is its failure to account for our search for meaning and truth. Homo sapiens sapiens is either a dead end, or a stepping stone on the way to a dead end.

      I’m missing the problem. Yes, we search for meaning and truth. What are you saying about it?

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    The historical record of Joseph Smith and his followers are also largely accurate.

    Do you really believe the credibility of Christianity and Mormonism are on the same level? Or are you just playing devil’s advocate?

    • Retro

      Do you really believe the credibility of Christianity and Mormonism are on the same level? Or are you just playing devil’s advocate?

      First of all, yes, I am just playing devil’s advocate, but it’s not just to be a pain, it’s for a purpose.

      When we examine a faith that we don’t believe in, we will often ask questions that we wouldn’t ask if we already believed in it.

      Likewise, when we are defending a faith we already believe in, we will often accept defenses that we wouldn’t accept for a faith we don’t believe in.

      The credibility of Christrianity is not all that different than the credibility of Mormonism. The similarities are striking if you look at them: Both faiths were adaptions of a pre-existing faith. Both faiths rely on books filled with unhistorical stories about ancient ancestors. Both faiths were founded by one man and a small number of commited followers. Both faiths were founded by men who were killed for their non-standard beliefs. Both faiths grew well eveb though they were heavily persecuted.

      Of course there are differences between these two faiths, but we can’t tear down one faith with the same argument we use to build up the other. We need to be consistent.

      Mormons use many of the same arguments to defend their faith as Christians use to defend theirs.

      If we are to believe in Jesus because his existence is historically reliable, then we need to explain why we shouldn’t also believe in Joseph Smith.

      If the well documented witnesses of the golden plates don’t prove Mormonism to be true, then why should the weaker documented witnesses for the Resurrection of Jesus prove anything?

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Do you really believe the credibility of Christianity and Mormonism are on the same level?

      I think that the accuracy of the historical claims are on the same level, but I think that the quality of the evidence is better in the case of Mormonism (more recent, more voluminous, in English).

  • http://aborrowedflame.com AF

    Well-educated Christians deconvert to atheism, but well-educated atheists don’t convert to Christianity. More education about the history and origins of Christianity increases the likelihood that the Christian will deconvert, but more education increases the likelihood that the atheist will stay put. Education pushes you in one direction only.

    So why is it that a ‘convert’ to atheism is more likely not to have a tertiary education, while converts to evangelical Christianity often have post-graduate education? The stats just don’t sit with your claim:
    http://sigmundcarlandalfred.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/where-do-atheists-come-from/
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/oct/05/atheist-religion-education-demographics-class

    Perhaps, if you want to meet more ‘true’ atheists-turned-believer, you might need to spend more time in churches with university graduates and post-graduates.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      General schooling is not the point. I’m talking about education within this narrow field of Christian apologetics and counter-apologetics.

      • http://aborrowedflame.com AndrewF

        Do you consider Antony Flew’s ‘The presumption of atheism’ to be atheist apologetics? (I would), and does his move away from atheism to deism count? What about bible-burning Peter Hitchens?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Yes, it’s atheist apologetics, but I (surprisingly, even to me) don’t consider Flew a well-educated atheist in the context of this post. When you read “his” There is a God, you see that he knows basically nothing about the scientific arguments for and against God.

          Peter Hitchens is the Christian; Christopher Hitchens was the snarky atheist. Christopher disliked the Bible, but I doubt he burned any.

        • http://aborrowedflame.com AF

          Peter was also an atheist (of the marxist variety) who did set a bible on fire when he was younger. Though if you’ve ruled Flew out, then I do think you’re creating a no-true-scotsman by essentially writing off anyone who hadn’t looked at (and agreed with?) the arguments you put forth. It would seem your argument here seems to imply that if they’d heard your arguments, they wouldn’t have dropped their atheism.
          But I actually think the bigger problem with your argument is the implicit assumption that people believe what they do based purely on reason. As philosophers have long pointed out, we believe what we do based on a mixture of logos, ethos & pathos. Anyone who thinks they hold their views only via logos are probably kidding themselves.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          AF:

          if you’ve ruled Flew out, then I do think you’re creating a no-true-scotsman by essentially writing off anyone who hadn’t looked at (and agreed with?) the arguments you put forth.

          Flew’s ghost-written There is a God makes my point. It contains the simplest deist arguments. And Flew didn’t even write it, so I can only assume that even these arguments were over his head. Flew might have been tops in philosophy, but there are plenty of clues that he knew little about science–or at least the science behind those deist arguments.

          It would seem your argument here seems to imply that if they’d heard your arguments, they wouldn’t have dropped their atheism.

          My argument is that if they’d been like me, they wouldn’t now be making the same elementary apologetics arguments they make.

          Admittedly, they have different audiences. Could be that they could very well deliver these advanced arguments that would go far beyond where I’ve taken them, but they’re too busy writing for a different audience. But apologists have had plenty of opportunities to aim at least some of their arguments at atheists like me. So far, nothing.

          But I actually think the bigger problem with your argument is the implicit assumption that people believe what they do based purely on reason.

          I’m focused here on just reason.

          I think it’d be an improvement if Christians would simply remove themselves from the field of reason. If they believe because of how they were raised or because of emotional experiences, just say so. Stop claiming that their arguments are defensible with reason.

        • http://aborrowedflame.com AF

          I admit, I find the irony of your previous comment rather amusing – claiming superior (nay, incontrovertible) reasoning while making a blatantly fallacious argument.
          It’s one thing to say ‘you weren’t like me, because you didn’t think X Y Z’ but quite another to presume that if they’d thought that they would never had been persuaded otherwise.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Blatantly fallacious? Sorry–I’m missing this part.

        • http://aborrowedflame.com AF

          Perhaps ‘blatant’ is slightly hyperbolic.. it seems pretty clear to me, though, that you’re shifting the bar, or at least, have set it unfairly so as to create, in effect, the no-true-scotsman you were concerned about. You end up begging the question when you imply that a ‘true’ atheist apologist would know argument X because if they did, they wouldn’t become a theist. So too is saying that Christians should “stop claiming that their arguments are defensible with reason” – it begs the question, and seems to rely on a false dichotomy to do so (the idea either reason is alone – itself a false assumption – or it’s absent).

          Your argument is essentially: If an atheist “truly understood” (good?) atheist apologetics, they would still be an atheist, therefore, any ex-atheist, no matter how educated, and involved in apologetics could not have been versed in the arguments I am talking about. On this basis I can say I’ve never seen ‘an atheist like me’ (i.e. one versed in the particular arguments I find persuasive) become a Christian.
          That is clearly circular.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          AF:

          Perhaps ‘blatant’ is slightly hyperbolic

          Slightly.

          I think the original post was pretty clear. Your summary is backwards from the way I’d say it. I don’t see any circularity.

          The point is that a Bob-from-2012-turned-Christian would be pretty easy to spot … and I haven’t spotted him. Of course, he could be busy focusing on patting Christians on the head and assuring them that they’d made the correct choice, but wouldn’t he focus on his special area of expertise–ferreting well-educated atheists out with arguments to which they had no response?

          Of course this doesn’t attempt to be a proof that no such Christian exists. I’m simply saying that such an unusual and compelling Christian apologist would be pretty easy to spot and I’ve seen no such Christian.

  • http://www.delemares.wordpress.com sandra delemare

    I posted on my blog how I moved from atheism to being a follower of Jesus on my blog. You can find part one of the journey here:
    http://delemares.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/my-story-1-from-atheist-to-agnostic-3-2/
    I consider that I was an educated atheist at the time.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      I consider that I was an educated atheist at the time.

      If you say that you were well educated from a formal standpoint, I’m sure you’re right. I’m talking about being educated about the counter-arguments to Christian apologetics. To repeat: I’ve never heard of someone who was in this category being converted to Christianity.

  • Alissa

    What about Niles Randall? He says when he was an atheist he trained himself to debate Christians.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiB2K_BAyAk
    Also, have you looked at Holly Ordway’s book? She doesn’t say much about how educated in counter-apologetics she was (but if she wasn’t, it didn’t stop her making fun of Christians).
    http://www.amazon.com/Not-Gods-Type-Rational-Academic/dp/0802431941

    • Bob Seidensticker

      There are a bazillion Christians who used to be atheists. As I say in the post, I understand this group. What I’m talking about are atheists who truly understand the counter-apologetics arguments. I don’t have the time to track down every atheist-to-Christian conversion story, but I’m guessing (simply because of probabilities) that these two were not.

      As I mention in the post, the Christian that I’m looking for is one who knows the atheist arguments as well as I do and proves it by picking up from the end of the argument and pointing out pro-Christian rebuttals that I hadn’t thought of yet. I’ve not seen such a Christian.

  • Jubal DiGriz

    My apologies if you have already covered this and I missed it, but I’d be interested in you revisiting this in regards to Leah “Unequally Yoked” Libresco. She put out a few more details on her reasoning for turning to Catholicism, and sounds like shortly there will be a bit more. She certainly seems to fall under the well-educated atheist, and her presupposition of objective morality doesn’t discount that.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      I mentioned Leah Libresco in my recent post about atheist prayer. I haven’t kept up with her summary of her conversion, but she’s certainly an interesting case.

      If she is the elusive well-educated-atheist-turned-Christian, we’ll know because of the apologetics arguments she’ll be able to advance. Instead of being the same old arguments, they will pick up from the impasse and advance them beyond where the atheist is. I’ve never seen this.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      BTW, the only other Jubal I’ve heard of is General Jubal Early. And, now that I search for it, I see a use of that name in Genesis.

      Cool.

  • Pingback: hefalimp cardijon

  • Pingback: air quality houston

  • Pingback: cialis original livraison rapide

  • Pingback: how to prevent premature ejaculation video

  • Pingback: online slots

  • Pingback: chicken coop ideas

  • Pingback: click here.,

  • Pingback: cialis paris

  • Pingback: dog bed

  • Pingback: Visit This Website

  • Pingback: how long do people last in bed

  • Pingback: macaron kopen

  • Pingback: commander cialis quebec

  • Pingback: cialis medicina

  • Pingback: payday loans for bad credit

  • Pingback: acheter cialis pharmacie ligne

  • Pingback: automotive

  • Pingback: Law

  • Pingback: great

  • Pingback: URL

  • Pingback: read full here

  • Pingback: acheter du cialis en allemagne

  • Pingback: superkarts.info

  • Pingback: cpokemon.net

  • Pingback: myrexis.info

  • Pingback: electroglasprober.info

  • Pingback: lcbla.info

  • Pingback: diedesign.info

  • Pingback: cialis generico senza ricetta

  • Pingback: viagra

  • Pingback: rxslimclinic.info

  • Pingback: flpe.info

  • Pingback: youngleadersacademy.info

  • Pingback: arganolie discount

  • Pingback: lawyer directory

  • Pingback: ipoczta.info

  • Pingback: uproarpr.info

  • Pingback: yougetbmw.info

  • Pingback: Business

  • Pingback: bedroom suites

  • Pingback: radiostudiox.info

  • Pingback: Evidence tracker

  • Pingback: Optimax Reviews

  • Pingback: cincyamateurgolf.info

  • Pingback: dublin massage

  • Pingback: Paignton Driving School

  • Pingback: Shaahin Cheyene

  • Pingback: Shaahin Cheyene

  • Pingback: sick of law suits

  • Pingback: escort in Sydney

  • Pingback: escort in Sydney

  • Pingback: kitchens

  • Pingback: Bad real-estate

  • Pingback: www.floridasupremecourt.org

  • Pingback: kitchens

  • Pingback: informatique-thouars.info

  • Pingback: Richard McArthur Silverton

  • Pingback: Arganollie

  • Pingback: Richard McArthur Washington

  • Pingback: Flight Tickets

  • Pingback: Richard McArthur Silverton

  • Pingback: Richard McArthur Washington

  • Pingback: achat cialis france

  • Pingback: raleigh wedding films

  • Pingback: Social Justice

  • Pingback: buy likes

  • Pingback: sex

  • Pingback: K3vin Envoy

  • Pingback: Penis enlargement

  • Pingback: prezzo cialis 10 mg

  • Pingback: cupones de descuento

  • Pingback: distante rutiere

  • Pingback: web

  • Pingback: ed maldonado

  • Pingback: garage doors san francisco

  • Pingback: insane value

  • Pingback: love cupid online dating

  • Pingback: emily bear

  • Pingback: emily bathroom accessory

  • Pingback: 1-800-411-pain

  • Pingback: Madden 15 Tips

  • Pingback: viagra online

  • Pingback: Carey Martell

  • Pingback: Ceiling Fan Installation

  • Pingback: Empower Network Affiliate

  • Pingback: Mortgage company

  • Pingback: Skip Trowel Texture

  • Pingback: ford raptor bumper

  • Pingback: Knockdown Texture

  • Pingback: Process Servers

  • Pingback: Gas/Electricity

  • Pingback: NOVA Dryer Vent Cleaning

  • Pingback: youtube mp4

  • Pingback: Hair styles to impress

  • Pingback: shakeology alternative

  • Pingback: the messenger: the story of a contract killer

  • Pingback: Northern Virginia dryer vent cleaning

  • Pingback: renta de autos en cancun

  • Pingback: fans

  • Pingback: Tom Anderson

  • Pingback: ganesh chaturthi sms

  • Pingback: renta de autos en cancun

  • Pingback: ejakulation

  • Pingback: hyundai sale

  • Pingback: legal highs

  • Pingback: how to last longer in bed without a condom

  • Pingback: bill jacobs mazda

  • Pingback: Porno Filmes

  • Pingback: volkswagen beetle for sale

  • Pingback: where to buy scentsy candles

  • Pingback: eye insurance

  • Pingback: doctors tucson az

  • Pingback: coupon

  • Pingback: eye serum

  • Pingback: Lucy

  • Pingback: advertise houses for sale

  • Pingback: Viagra Now

  • Pingback: Sara Schwartz Gluck

  • Pingback: Denver CO For Sale By Owner

  • Pingback: FSBO Memphis TN

  • Pingback: Peggie Digiuseppe

  • Pingback: online casino

  • Pingback: labor day travel ideas

  • Pingback: the best facial mask

  • Pingback: paginas web wordpress nicaragua

  • Pingback: daily tarot reading

  • Pingback: gordas antes y despues de adelgazar

  • Pingback: circle tires

  • Pingback: getting a home loan

  • Pingback: portraits

  • Pingback: cheap workout equipment

  • Pingback: Bee Wild Pest Control

  • Pingback: how to get a guy to last longer in bed

  • Pingback: bitcoin casino

  • Pingback: Whatsapp Hack

  • Pingback: health and beauty

  • Pingback: Titfuck

  • Pingback: assfuck

  • Pingback: Nike Coupon Code

  • Pingback: dog trainers

  • Pingback: bee wild pest control

  • Pingback: pest control houston review

  • Pingback: appliance repair near Greenwich

  • Pingback: appliance repair in Cos Cob CT

  • Pingback: Here

  • Pingback: Yonkers appliance repair

  • Pingback: b complex vitamin

  • Pingback: data recovery wizard

  • Pingback: Cialis

  • Pingback: china business directory

  • Pingback: Goodyear appliance repair

  • Pingback: appliance repair Glendale

  • Pingback: file recovery mac

  • Pingback: House eviction

  • Pingback: modere compensation

  • Pingback: banking coupons

  • Pingback: sex

  • Pingback: online slots games free

  • Pingback: viagra online

  • Pingback: appliance repair Cave Creek

  • Pingback: sex

  • Pingback: sea fish identification

  • Pingback: bayan izmir escort

  • Pingback: emotional intelligence training

  • Pingback: leer m?s

  • Pingback: ambien online

  • Pingback: click here

  • Pingback: buy oxycontin online

  • Pingback: buy hydrocodone

  • Pingback: guarras gratis

  • Pingback: buy tramadol

  • Pingback: xenical online

  • Pingback: blackhatworld

  • Pingback: cash for gold

  • Pingback: porn

  • Pingback: carpet cleaners pretoria

  • Pingback: Sports Cards

  • Pingback: viagra

  • Pingback: caramoan

  • Pingback: plum lipstick

  • Pingback: natural face masks

  • Pingback: ?????? ??????

  • Pingback: abc chauffeurs

  • Pingback: click here for pay day loan review

  • Pingback: Exterminator Service Houston Texas

  • Pingback: buy hydrocodone online

  • Pingback: affordablepups reviews

  • Pingback: viagra

  • Pingback: xlovecam generator

  • Pingback: Devvon Terrell I Like It Ft Kazzie Pop Video Is Crazy

  • Pingback: FanDuel Promo Code

  • Pingback: Pest Control Service in Richmond Tx

  • Pingback: hbos

  • Pingback: air conditioning sherman oaks

  • Pingback: Knoxville Plumbing

  • Pingback: Chicago criminal attorney

  • Pingback: furniture in the house

  • Pingback: gifts for men

  • Pingback: houses to buy in cardiff

  • Pingback: WordPress Themes

  • Pingback: ritalin rapid detox

  • Pingback: columbia sunroom

  • Pingback: germantown sunroom

  • Pingback: enrabar gajas

  • Pingback: nether hacks

  • Pingback: Persewaan Mobil Elf surabaya

  • Pingback: macchina fotografica reflex canon usata

  • Pingback: Marysville Criminal Defense Attorney

  • Pingback: buy tramadol

  • Pingback: buy tramadol

  • Pingback: buy ambien

  • Pingback: buy cialis

  • Pingback: products to last longer in bed

  • Pingback: buy tramadol

  • Pingback: code promo modz

  • Pingback: Cleaners in glasgow

  • Pingback: code promo

  • Pingback: Worcester iPhone Repair

  • Pingback: buy ativan

  • Pingback: buy adipex

  • Pingback: celebrity leaked photos

  • Pingback: Worcester iPhone Repair

  • Pingback: cialis

  • Pingback: how to get a divorce

  • Pingback: immigration services

  • Pingback: Rusk heat freak- Get It Here!

  • Pingback: teen

  • Pingback: free keylogger

  • Pingback: penis enlargement

  • Pingback: Elephant Art

  • Pingback: web design perth

  • Pingback: digital marketing agencies

  • Pingback: Aspergers Quiz

  • Pingback: Aspergers Quiz

  • Pingback: Aspergers

  • Pingback: Aspergers

  • Pingback: Cialis

  • Pingback: perth web designers

  • Pingback: banana blue

  • Pingback: loyal 9 marketing reviews

  • Pingback: cerrajeros baratos murcia

  • Pingback: Poker online

  • Pingback: weight loss spas

  • Pingback: food

  • Pingback: Forex Broker

  • Pingback: pabrik tas wanita

  • Pingback: landscaper

  • Pingback: Camilo Concha

  • Pingback: soundcloud plays

  • Pingback: Learn Hacking Tutorials

  • Pingback: Caller ID Dip Revenue

  • Pingback: divorce attorney

  • Pingback: download bluestacks

  • Pingback: elizabeth l hapner

  • Pingback: try car games 1000

  • Pingback: hearthstone arena guide

  • Pingback: Hacking Tutorials

  • Pingback: donice ogrodowe

  • Pingback: Cerrajeros Alicante

  • Pingback: quickextenderpro

  • Pingback: rape videos

  • Pingback: xarelto lawyer

  • Pingback: gay porn

  • Pingback: Guia de negocios

  • Pingback: vending machines

  • Pingback: זילכה שירלי

  • Pingback: porn

  • Pingback: Livejasmin Hack

  • Pingback: the plumbing cure

  • Pingback: LAX Car Service

  • Pingback: bolatangkasonline

  • Pingback: Office Decoration

  • Pingback: Gym Singapore

  • Pingback: Newport Beach

  • Pingback: newport beach

  • Pingback: betboo

  • Pingback: help moving furniture

  • Pingback: betboo

  • Pingback: video for real estate

  • Pingback: betboo

  • Pingback: information

  • Pingback: michelle rodriguez wiki

  • Pingback: Miniature golf construction

  • Pingback: luxury aircraft solutions private jet charters

  • Pingback: Online Signature

  • Pingback: real estate agent school

  • Pingback: bahis siteleri

  • Pingback: betboo

  • Pingback: Jogos de carros

  • Pingback: chelsea ferguson gets tits out,

  • Pingback: mobile atm

  • Pingback: find job

  • Pingback: no win no fee

  • Pingback: بفركس احتيال

  • Pingback: לורי שם טוב

  • Pingback: bureaux ferm?s centre ville Montr?al

  • Pingback: mil anuncios

  • Pingback: Pen Drive Rotta

  • Pingback: locksmith Farmington Hills

  • Pingback: devis déménagement

  • Pingback: Patriot Rooter

  • Pingback: hedge trimming brighton

  • Pingback: let flat london

  • Pingback: our website

  • Pingback: Joe Pojman

  • Pingback: Grocery & Gourmet Food

  • Pingback: Mad ud af huset

  • Pingback: poker strategies

  • Pingback: walmart oil change coupons

  • Pingback: flying homes

  • Pingback: Jogos de Tiro

  • Pingback: kangen water ionizer

  • Pingback: CCNA BANGALORE

  • Pingback: ejacculation precosse

  • Pingback: casino

  • Pingback: ceiling fans

  • Pingback: dekoracje do domu

  • Pingback: ejacculation precosse

  • Pingback: Flooring

  • Pingback: éjaculation précoce comment faire

  • Pingback: Banquet halls in brooklyn

  • Pingback: Buy Reputation Management

  • Pingback: spy

  • Pingback: IT Training Specialist

  • Pingback: engineering

  • Pingback: epic fails

  • Pingback: Shopping

  • Pingback: plugin wordpress

  • Pingback: alphabetical web directory

  • Pingback: sale in your video

  • Pingback: QuickBooks training

  • Pingback: biuro ksiegowe warszawa

  • Pingback: Sondage StarOfService

  • Pingback: Natashia Kamealoha

  • Pingback: Preston Byrd speaker

  • Pingback: Wholesale Brooch Lot

  • Pingback: priligy cialis

  • Pingback: consumer store

  • Pingback: gratis voetbal kijken

  • Pingback: big-rig truck

  • Pingback: datenrettung

  • Pingback: citizen watches online reviews

  • Pingback: wireless charger for lg g3

  • Pingback: autotitleloans-sandiego.com

  • Pingback: Billig flytting Oslo

  • Pingback: alena sunavska

  • Pingback: very cute Munchkin stood cat standing

  • Pingback: Organic

  • Pingback: RCC Institute of Technology Review

  • Pingback: kinder ferrero

  • Pingback: whale dc

  • Pingback: one more cup of coffee

  • Pingback: http://drnathanjuiceplus.com

  • Pingback: online paid surveys

  • Pingback: website

  • Pingback: computer accessories

  • Pingback: property loan singapore

  • Pingback: Seattle Web Design

  • Pingback: in here

  • Pingback: vimax

  • Pingback: seo jobs

  • Pingback: visit poster's site

  • Pingback: in here

  • Pingback: big

  • Pingback: Medieval and Renaissance costume

  • Pingback: adonis golden ration system

  • Pingback: Online Shopping

  • Pingback: online flashcards

  • Pingback: 8bets10

  • Pingback: superbahis

  • Pingback: umbilical cord blood banking

  • Pingback: Water Proof Video Cameras

  • Pingback: http://orienthacapital.com

  • Pingback: dr gerald buchoff

  • Pingback: nelson mandela

  • Pingback: vimax

  • Pingback: Tiffanie Craddock

  • Pingback: Boerderij spel

  • Pingback: models las vegas

  • Pingback: Saint Helena maps street view

  • Pingback: Ted Virtue MidOcean

  • Pingback: http://ritadavidson.com

  • Pingback: kliknij

  • Pingback: jns

  • Pingback: Korte Kapsels

  • Pingback: Celebrity Feet

  • Pingback: my source

  • Pingback: http://sexynightladies.com

  • Pingback: website

  • Pingback: number of

  • Pingback: Designer Engagement Rings

  • Pingback: display annoncering

  • Pingback: DIRTY ARMY

  • Pingback: Scott kay

  • Pingback: iphone 5s unlock

  • Pingback: dreamboard

  • Pingback: kangen water machine

  • Pingback: check this online source

  • Pingback: 60 second binary options signals

  • Pingback: rowery mtb

  • Pingback: dreamboards

  • Pingback: jailbait

  • Pingback: vimax porn

  • Pingback: เรียน tu-get

  • Pingback: Professional Logo Design

  • Pingback: chiropodist definition

  • Pingback: franquia de lavagem a seco

  • Pingback: my website

  • Pingback: sell your house fast

  • Pingback: WebForum

  • Pingback: Christmas Lights

  • Pingback: C

  • Pingback: website

  • Pingback: sell my house fast

  • Pingback: rhinoplasty

  • Pingback: Traditional Chinese Medicine Five Dock

  • Pingback: Naturkosmetik

  • Pingback: increase site traffic

  • Pingback: valium online

  • Pingback: Extra resources

  • Pingback: Continue

  • Pingback: Numéros non surtaxés amazon

  • Pingback: great business

  • Pingback: advokat

  • Pingback: how to get rid of bed bugs

  • Pingback: billigt webhotel

  • Pingback: Studie

  • Pingback: online dating dating

  • Pingback: Cheap Prefab Houses for sale in UAE, OMAN AND GULF

  • Pingback: Bio Cover

  • Pingback: survey bypass

  • Pingback: Snapalicious

  • Pingback: que es el registro civil central

  • Pingback: basic website design

  • Pingback: Employee Monitoring

  • Pingback: windenergie

  • Pingback: Don Kellner

  • Pingback: pet waste bags

  • Pingback: Panadorhat

  • Pingback: Bic Ctx

  • Pingback: windenergie

  • Pingback: nieruchomosci Azul Villa

  • Pingback: Mobile Wallet and Digital Coupon Advantages

  • Pingback: Tens Handheld Electronic Pulse Massager Unit

  • Pingback: Kosher auditing Asia

  • Pingback: Betriebsfeste Detern

  • Pingback: scam reviews

  • Pingback: SEO

  • Pingback: iphone repair

  • Pingback: dynamics implementation for small and medium size businesses

  • Pingback: kliknij tutaj

  • Pingback: Hesperia Areatza

  • Pingback: Oracle SQL Developer

  • Pingback: viagra

  • Pingback: dr. Hatem Elhagely

  • Pingback: worksheets for kids

  • Pingback: svetlana Bilyanova

  • Pingback: reviews of Green Smoke

  • Pingback: Trans Rapid Web

  • Pingback: car history reports

  • Pingback: customer service

  • Pingback: dr duke

  • Pingback: acorn stairlifts

  • Pingback: buy facebook fans

  • Pingback: muslim marriage events

  • Pingback: http://vseoteli.net

  • Pingback: http://webcancun.net

  • Pingback: Form Download

  • Pingback: property management London

  • Pingback: Telecharger Films Gratuit

  • Pingback: Online photography courses

  • Pingback: Free Viagra

  • Pingback: Free Viagra

  • Pingback: Copegraf

  • Pingback: Social Media Marketing Services Companies

  • Pingback: my source

  • Pingback: Free Porn

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: resource

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: my blogs

  • Pingback: http://www.bypassicloudlock.net/

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: spy camera pix

  • Pingback: dead rising 3 trainer

  • Pingback: blog

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: mytopbrokers.com

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: schlüsseldienst düsseldorf

  • Pingback: website

  • Pingback: htc

  • Pingback: number1youtubeviews.yolasite.com/ number1youtubeviews.yolasite.com

  • Pingback: Appliances

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: donde comprar garcinia cambogia

  • Pingback: Coquin

  • Pingback: Netflix.com

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: Ausgezeichnet Geniessen

  • Pingback: rhinoplasty

  • Pingback: business debt recovery

  • Pingback: http://yuzmek.com

  • Pingback: somos buenas web cordoba

  • Pingback: Adventure Holidays

  • Pingback: sliced pebble tile

  • Pingback: adult

  • Pingback: Garage door repair white plains

  • Pingback: cheap viagra

  • Pingback: poker system

  • Pingback: tramadol generic

  • Pingback: dreamboards

  • Pingback: credit

  • Pingback: wizard101 hack

  • Pingback: homes by vanderbuilt

  • Pingback: http://2013lcc.com

  • Pingback: coupons

  • Pingback: Forest Retreat Center and Forest Community

  • Pingback: http://brucepeterkacfo.com

  • Pingback: sexy emails

  • Pingback: water ionizer

  • Pingback: buy steroids

  • Pingback: porno

  • Pingback: sexy emails

  • Pingback: alkaline ionized water

  • Pingback: donald duck hd

  • Pingback: http://joesrealestate.net

  • Pingback: http://invoicestuffers.com

  • Pingback: cat sitter naples

  • Pingback: Exit business cards

  • Pingback: Canadian steroids

  • Pingback: foreclosed homes

  • Pingback: loyal 9 marketing

  • Pingback: http://mermtrans.com

  • Pingback: http://mozgoreklam.com

  • Pingback: http://kaesemacher.net

  • Pingback: http://stadt-zuerich.net

  • Pingback: sexy emails

  • Pingback: making money online ebooks

  • Pingback: botox wroclaw

  • Pingback: factor quema grasa oficial

  • Pingback: http://spector360.net

  • Pingback: Toronto Product Photography

  • Pingback: Porno

  • Pingback: number reverse

  • Pingback: www.selljunkcarsatlanta.us

  • Pingback: lamowniki

  • Pingback: Bellevue Dentist

  • Pingback: montaz alarmu samochodowego lodz

  • Pingback: wiecej

  • Pingback: wakacje nad jeziorem

  • Pingback: oferta

  • Pingback: http://psikr.com

  • Pingback: http://eggs-online.com

  • Pingback: alkaline water

  • Pingback: http://xpellshop.net

  • Pingback: http://citychpd.net

  • Pingback: source

  • Pingback: szafki ubraniowe

  • Pingback: JT Foxx

  • Pingback: JT Foxx

  • Pingback: furniture houston tx

  • Pingback: justice

  • Pingback: http://nvmweb.com

  • Pingback: Ipas2 online job

  • Pingback: Home Page

  • Pingback: Online Poker

  • Pingback: Office & School Supplies

  • Pingback: sintomas de retencion de agua

  • Pingback: como usar el metodo del calendario

  • Pingback: Aafx

  • Pingback: Storyteller Lightroom Preset $10!

  • Pingback: lojas capas

  • Pingback: night clubs in nyc

  • Pingback: http://takingsurvivors.com

  • Pingback: ivy night club

  • Pingback: bristol night clubs

  • Pingback: Noticias

  • Pingback: finding a good investment

  • Pingback: viagra penis

  • Pingback: online slots

  • Pingback: free online slots

  • Pingback: genskie-sekreti.ru/kak-izbavitsya-ot-pryshchej.html

  • Pingback: penis

  • Pingback: best money lenders

  • Pingback: Bangla Newspaper

  • Pingback: kindle phone

  • Pingback: water ionizer

  • Pingback: Les Jardins De Gaia

  • Pingback: the Precor treadmill

  • Pingback: louisville accident doctor

  • Pingback: house of harlow 1960

  • Pingback: moms

  • Pingback: descargar black berry world 8520

  • Pingback: no password needed

  • Pingback: link

  • Pingback: how much does law enforcement drones cost

  • Pingback: cheap Evening Dresses

  • Pingback: CV Writing India

  • Pingback: hotmail

  • Pingback: superbahis

  • Pingback: Amauris Bastidas

  • Pingback: bendgate

  • Pingback: music

  • Pingback: Andrew Green

  • Pingback: Gatwick - Transfers

  • Pingback: Web design & SEO

  • Pingback: Men's Medical Clinics

  • Pingback: Chip and Dale cartoons

  • Pingback: domain

  • Pingback: sculpted cake tutorial

  • Pingback: custom cakes

  • Pingback: Dwayne Parker

  • Pingback: bulk tumblers

  • Pingback: famous astrologer

  • Pingback: shopping blogs singapore

  • Pingback: oak coffee table

  • Pingback: windows

  • Pingback: pain

  • Pingback: http://www.answerplaza.com

  • Pingback: self publishing

  • Pingback: Hot Air Corn Popper by Presto

  • Pingback: how to find a job

  • Pingback: job interview tips

  • Pingback: Brooklyn Plumber

  • Pingback: Internet Marketing Revolution Handbook

  • Pingback: cancun transportation

  • Pingback: how to jump higher blog

  • Pingback: oc bail bonds

  • Pingback: my friend cayla

  • Pingback: water ionizers

  • Pingback: explain it

  • Pingback: Comment obtenir illimit?e de gemmes dans clash of clans

  • Pingback: Nether hacks

  • Pingback: manage weightloss

  • Pingback: vibrator

  • Pingback: bdsm sex game

  • Pingback: Actors Academy In India

  • Pingback: pen drive spezzata

  • Pingback: jewels jewelry

  • Pingback: jewels jewelry

  • Pingback: diamond jewelry

  • Pingback: kinder eggs toys

  • Pingback: laser jammer

  • Pingback: Silicone Baking Mat

  • Pingback: süperbahis

  • Pingback: Hell in a cell live stream

  • Pingback: how to trade binary options profitably

  • Pingback: theme

  • Pingback: train-trans.pl

  • Pingback: Family Law Attorney Florence SC

  • Pingback: graphiste freelance paris

  • Pingback: l?s upp samsung

  • Pingback: l?s upp xperia

  • Pingback: Portal

  • Pingback: psycholog warszawa

  • Pingback: BathPillowbySimplyEssentials

  • Pingback: career guide

  • Pingback: Nail Art for Beginners

  • Pingback: clash of clans hack

  • Pingback: cigar

  • Pingback: online poker

  • Pingback: zi xiu tang

  • Pingback: www.helixsuspension.com

  • Pingback: comprar argentina

  • Pingback: limo rental

  • Pingback: news

  • Pingback: furniture online singapore

  • Pingback: Home

  • Pingback: Happy new year friday or opening day collection

  • Pingback: about

  • Pingback: ติว toeic

  • Pingback: Maduras XXX

  • Pingback: downline

  • Pingback: Skepvet

  • Pingback: Personal trainer Beer Sheva

  • Pingback: general

  • Pingback: scottsdale nail salons

  • Pingback: Dutch Glow

  • Pingback: Politics and News Updates

  • Pingback: your blog

  • Pingback: Web Forum

  • Pingback: canadian viagra

  • Pingback: Amazing Brazilian Bracelet

  • Pingback: pikavippi

  • Pingback: pet rescue level 93

  • Pingback: Rental Property

  • Pingback: viagra online

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: our site

  • Pingback: lenceria sexy

  • Pingback: In Loving you

  • Pingback: lenceria sexy

  • Pingback: Bill Gates

  • Pingback: restaurant pos software

  • Pingback: bus tours to new york

  • Pingback: Silver Eagle Bullion Coins

  • Pingback: reptile t shirt

  • Pingback: Mca scam review

  • Pingback: Home Repair

  • Pingback: fdpod.com

  • Pingback: canciones de tu boda

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: in here

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: click here

  • Pingback: fowllowme

  • Pingback: 狮潭乡

  • Pingback: site

  • Pingback: lainaa

  • Pingback: your blog

  • Pingback: comment

  • Pingback: composicao goji actives

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: expert interview coach

  • Pingback: Illinois Flat Fee MLS

  • Pingback: Battery Recycling in Sacramento CA

  • Pingback: in here

  • Pingback: Proceed to check out

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: Charm Bracelet Project

  • Pingback: Blechercollins

  • Pingback: free poker

  • Pingback: fdpod.com

  • Pingback: blogshop

  • Pingback: Click Here

  • Pingback: comment

  • Pingback: Free Directory Of Laptops

  • Pingback: http://twojezyczenia.blog.com

  • Pingback: car loan interest rates

  • Pingback: Whitepages

  • Pingback: blogger

  • Pingback: tower climber resumes

  • Pingback: BlackBook

  • Pingback: Video porno italiani

  • Pingback: hp printer repair

  • Pingback: David Pogorelc

  • Pingback: escorts bangkok

  • Pingback: Locksmith OKC

  • Pingback: schoolofdragonscheatsdownloadfree

  • Pingback: new porn vids

  • Pingback: resource

  • Pingback: black hair extensions

  • Pingback: yorkshire wedding photographer

  • Pingback: my blog

  • Pingback: life insurance rates

  • Pingback: abnehmen ohne JoJo effekt

  • Pingback: Luis Souto ecommerce development U.S

  • Pingback: World Cup Live

  • Pingback: entry level jobs quincy il

  • Pingback: San Diego Criminal Attorney

  • Pingback: lesbian sex games

  • Pingback: Tagesdeals

  • Pingback: yellow october

  • Pingback: artist brushes

  • Pingback: make money

  • Pingback: these views got me banned

  • Pingback: here source

  • Pingback: wedding dresses toronto

  • Pingback: bad credit small business loans

  • Pingback: peliculas gratis

  • Pingback: How to boost your bust Breast Enhancement size by 2 cups

  • Pingback: Slate Tile Contractor

  • Pingback: pr ajansı

  • Pingback: hansel and gretel torrent

  • Pingback: my website

  • Pingback: tworzenie stron poznan

  • Pingback: website

  • Pingback: homepage

  • Pingback: Anonymous

  • Pingback: we buy any house

  • Pingback: my website

  • Pingback: telephone service

  • Pingback: Illinois Flat Fee Listing

  • Pingback: security system

  • Pingback: saran wrap for weight loss

  • Pingback: Truly Free Xbox Live Codes Every Month

  • Pingback: Wordpress Theme Search

  • Pingback: cold sores pictures

  • Pingback: Comment pirater un Compte Facebook Gratuitement 2014

  • Pingback: ecig reviews

  • Pingback: devis demenagement

  • Pingback: (816) 524-0404 bankruptcy lawyers

  • Pingback: (816) 847-1699 KC RV DEALERSHIPS

  • Pingback: BAD CREDIT AUTOMOBLILE FINANCING

  • Pingback: demenagement strasbourg

  • Pingback: Pharmacy Perth

  • Pingback: wynajem aut

  • Pingback: wynajem samochodów

  • Pingback: call termination providers

  • Pingback: wedding toronto

  • Pingback: real estate

  • Pingback: funerals perth

  • Pingback: fast home selling

  • Pingback: Welding consumables

  • Pingback: devis demenagement

  • Pingback: Implant

  • Pingback: rural internet options

  • Pingback: click here

  • Pingback: Triche Clash of Clans

  • Pingback: buy now

  • Pingback: best affiliate marketing

  • Pingback: africa adventure holidays

  • Pingback: Carlsbad Car Accident Lawyers

  • Pingback: Flat Fee MLS IL

  • Pingback: purificadoras de agua

  • Pingback: kankakee county process server

  • Pingback: Formatting

  • Pingback: news

  • Pingback: elegant wordpress magazine theme

  • Pingback: news

  • Pingback: devis demenagement

  • Pingback: devis demenagement

  • Pingback: datingsider

  • Pingback: surprise eggs

  • Pingback: buy cheap youtube views

  • Pingback: devis demenagement

  • Pingback: devis demenagement

  • Pingback: Twinspires Promo Code 2014

  • Pingback: pikalaina - siljalaina.fi

  • Pingback: survivalism

  • Pingback: cheap tickets for sale

  • Pingback: GM recall compensation

  • Pingback: inspirational story

  • Pingback: youtube video for australia

  • Pingback: your site

  • Pingback: car insurance quote

  • Pingback: web directory

  • Pingback: jobs near me

  • Pingback: pc fixe

  • Pingback: depannage informatique

  • Pingback: Games

  • Pingback: lainaa heti

  • Pingback: hen activities brighton

  • Pingback: how to get credit score

  • Pingback: Games for iPhones

  • Pingback: easy money

  • Pingback: seo directory

  • Pingback: superbahis

  • Pingback: click this link to find more

  • Pingback: diabetes protocol system

  • Pingback: free ps vita games

  • Pingback: sehr professionell

  • Pingback: New Ebay Promo Codes November 2014

  • Pingback: dental assistant

  • Pingback: helpful reading

  • Pingback: medical billing

  • Pingback: charter capt jason shilling

  • Pingback: pest control hertfordshire

  • Pingback: how to become a dental hygienist

  • Pingback: guide here

  • Pingback: logo design

  • Pingback: dental assistant schools

  • Pingback: Love Quotes

  • Pingback: more bonuses

  • Pingback: kliknij

  • Pingback: Make Money Online

  • Pingback: make money from home

  • Pingback: play restaurant games

  • Pingback: cigar

  • Pingback: Massage services in Abu dhabi

  • Pingback: discount Viagra

  • Pingback: cpr certification san antonio tx

  • Pingback: Pay Per Click (PPC)

  • Pingback: best porn site

  • Pingback: advice

  • Pingback: mua ve may bay truc tuyen

  • Pingback: canvas print set goals reach repeat

  • Pingback: pet sitter marco island

  • Pingback: Celebrity Bikini body

  • Pingback: steve jobs tshirt print if a user is having a problem its our problem

  • Pingback: jeff fried tshirt its simple until you make it complicated

  • Pingback: KakaiaiA.it CAPSULE COMPATIBILI LAVAZZA UDINE – CIALDE COMPATIBILI LAVAZZA A MODO MIO – Tutto Capsule Udine Futura Italian Stocklot Company

  • Pingback: sigint

  • Pingback: The Orient Singapore

  • Pingback: Cracked screen Repair

  • Pingback: Pets

  • Pingback: breathwork adelaide

  • Pingback: breathwork therapy

  • Pingback: best offer jackets

  • Pingback: buy pr 9 backlinks

  • Pingback: premium submision

  • Pingback: comment telecharger un film

  • Pingback: blackjack 21

  • Pingback: improving focus

  • Pingback: penis enlargment

  • Pingback: in here

  • Pingback: home jobs

  • Pingback: online horse betting

  • Pingback: recambios coche

  • Pingback: football metrics

  • Pingback: stryker hip lawsuit

  • Pingback: live online casino

  • Pingback: hip replacement lawsuit

  • Pingback: casinos online

  • Pingback: call of duty advanced warfare aimbot

  • Pingback: everything for the home

  • Pingback: Going Here

  • Pingback: Protein Powder

  • Pingback: call of duty advanced warfare hacks

  • Pingback: how to earn money fast

  • Pingback: your site

  • Pingback: p1 video magnet discount

  • Pingback: Free wordpress installation service

  • Pingback: wynajem samochodow

  • Pingback: general

  • Pingback: san francisco restaurants

  • Pingback: modern internet marketing

  • Pingback: ของขวัญปีใหม่เก๋ๆ

  • Pingback: buy 100 facebook post likes

  • Pingback: best binary options software

  • Pingback: cool pictures

  • Pingback: Naheed Ali

  • Pingback: radar and laser jammer

  • Pingback: barranquilla women

  • Pingback: wypozyczalnia busow

  • Pingback: radar and laser jammer

  • Pingback: www.explainmysite.com

  • Pingback: Analysis & news

  • Pingback: my site

  • Pingback: blogger

  • Pingback: expert interview coach

  • Pingback: coupons

  • Pingback: radarandlaserforum

  • Pingback: arganolie

  • Pingback: in here

  • Pingback: sofas

  • Pingback: Alec Hojczyk

  • Pingback: Best Auto Advice

  • Pingback: social selling

  • Pingback: toe nail fungus home remedies

  • Pingback: Matt C Justice

  • Pingback: recover data free

  • Pingback: payday loans

  • Pingback: noveller novell

  • Pingback: How to Get Rid Of Bed Bug Bites

  • Pingback: videos porno

  • Pingback: Online Reputation Management

  • Pingback: iphone 6 otterbox

  • Pingback: paris metro pass

  • Pingback: walk in clinic

  • Pingback: carpet cleaning Brisbane

  • Pingback: the language of desire

  • Pingback: juvalife

  • Pingback: my source

  • Pingback: Jenna Jameson

  • Pingback: Acortador de URL

  • Pingback: develop apps

  • Pingback: in here

  • Pingback: cynkowanie galwaniczne

  • Pingback: Remove Fake Likes

  • Pingback: general

  • Pingback: food photography

  • Pingback: All Natural Viagra Pills Save $$$

  • Pingback: how to make money online

  • Pingback: here source

  • Pingback: comment

  • Pingback: Porno

  • Pingback: click here

  • Pingback: fun holidays

  • Pingback: kopen van sieraden

  • Pingback: Car repair Atlanta

  • Pingback: here

  • Pingback: how to check whatsapp messages online for free

  • Pingback: ebizvarsity

  • Pingback: what is ibogaine

  • Pingback: GreenSmoke review

  • Pingback: here source

  • Pingback: here source

  • Pingback: siemens

  • Pingback: siemens

  • Pingback: Mca Scam

  • Pingback: click here

  • Pingback: high technology

  • Pingback: xxxcams.mobi

  • Pingback: Celebrity Pictures

  • Pingback: buy best hacks

  • Pingback: the holistic sanctuary reviews

  • Pingback: ibogaine videos

  • Pingback: the holistic sanctuary

  • Pingback: HERE

  • Pingback: Get Paid To Take Surveys Online

  • Pingback: men style

  • Pingback: dsl doppelflat tarife

  • Pingback: funny jokes

  • Pingback: Citizen Red Arrows JY0100-08e watch

  • Pingback: payday loans

  • Pingback: Drug Rehab Los Angeles

  • Pingback: Traveling Tips

  • Pingback: San Antonio Exterminator

  • Pingback: Taimur Khan is a co-founder of Blueberry

  • Pingback: glass table top

  • Pingback: seo company in vancouver

  • Pingback: Taimur Khan is a co-founder of Blueberry

  • Pingback: international courier charges from hyderabad

  • Pingback: Dr. Hatem Elhagaly

  • Pingback: new york hotel deals

  • Pingback: whatnotes

  • Pingback: Bet Sports,

  • Pingback: 0800 Nummer

  • Pingback: Paid to click

  • Pingback: Taimur Khan is a co-founder of Blueberry

  • Pingback: poncelet or poncelet brian

  • Pingback: bit.ly/10AecnQ

  • Pingback: Scottsdale AZ Pool Builders

  • Pingback: the venus factor

  • Pingback: Embroidery

  • Pingback: music for charity

  • Pingback: sell my house privately

  • Pingback: Tha Mey

  • Pingback: see more here

  • Pingback: Post divorce lawyers

  • Pingback: Automotive

  • Pingback: anonymous

  • Pingback: Elbrus

  • Pingback: repackage exe

  • Pingback: Clicking Here

  • Pingback: Automotive

  • Pingback: jt hotshotting

  • Pingback: Automotive

  • Pingback: Vinyl mastering

  • Pingback: Vitrier Montmorency

  • Pingback: kangen water

  • Pingback: stephen jones

  • Pingback: Business Consultants

  • Pingback: kangen

  • Pingback: website traffic

  • Pingback: property advertiser

  • Pingback: Celebrity Sexy Images

  • Pingback: kliknij tutaj

  • Pingback: Bedriftsbasen.no

  • Pingback: viagra canada

  • Pingback: Automotive Zone Reviews

  • Pingback: Toronto Criminal Lawyer

  • Pingback: fundacion malaga

  • Pingback: mygj health

  • Pingback: Business Analyst

  • Pingback: Pennies for papa foundation

  • Pingback: Pixel Film Studios

  • Pingback: skin care

  • Pingback: ways to make money online

  • Pingback: Shoulder Surgery in Fort Worth

  • Pingback: Wedding photobooth rental

  • Pingback: view photobooth

  • Pingback: homepage

  • Pingback: Online Shopping & Fashion Info

  • Pingback: Street Art

  • Pingback: Car Zone CZX

  • Pingback: community service

  • Pingback: Gerald Tritt

  • Pingback: Quantenheilung Berlin

  • Pingback: Paramotor School Thailand

  • Pingback: Mechanical Engineering

  • Pingback: Celebrity Pictures

  • Pingback: buy viagra

  • Pingback: hostgator promo code

  • Pingback: kangen water

  • Pingback: web hosting reviews 2013

  • Pingback: black friday 2014 deals

  • Pingback: arches health plan utah

  • Pingback: cheap viagra

  • Pingback: hostgator discount

  • Pingback: Automotive

  • Pingback: the ed show msnbc

  • Pingback: deutsche facebook fans kaufen

  • Pingback: hostgator coupon code

  • Pingback: hostgator coupons

  • Pingback: Samsung Galaxy Note 3 Repair Kissimmee

  • Pingback: lemoore haircuts

  • Pingback: Fenton Academy

  • Pingback: professional appliance service

  • Pingback: food

  • Pingback: physical therapist

  • Pingback: Doctor Hatem Elhagaly

  • Pingback: anxiete generalisee

  • Pingback: Tamil movies watch online

  • Pingback: Porta de vidro blindada

  • Pingback: home

  • Pingback: creative fundraising ideas

  • Pingback: Read This

  • Pingback: home

  • Pingback: home

  • Pingback: Blood Flow Restriction Training

  • Pingback: Pet Grooming Franchise

  • Pingback: free online chatting

  • Pingback: Diesel Tuning

  • Pingback: web design and mobile application developement

  • Pingback: more here

  • Pingback: joseph chinnock thebitcoinjournal.net

  • Pingback: porno animali

  • Pingback: gambling

  • Pingback: fitness

  • Pingback: technology

  • Pingback: www.pegym.com

  • Pingback: Celebrity Bikini body

  • Pingback: viagra

  • Pingback: Cashcashcash

  • Pingback: Windows 8 themes free download

  • Pingback: Web Design vancouver

  • Pingback: Online pharmacy

  • Pingback: grand theft auto 5 release date

  • Pingback: garcinia cambogia

  • Pingback: technology

  • Pingback: click this link to find more

  • Pingback: strona www

  • Pingback: online slots

  • Pingback: wordpress installation

  • Pingback: Black friday deals

  • Pingback: play online slots

  • Pingback: listing agent

  • Pingback: Altha Sherry

  • Pingback: Gregorio Horvat

  • Pingback: Hypnosis hypnotherapy NLP mp3 downloads

  • Pingback: iglesia bautista

  • Pingback: gestoria

  • Pingback: cialis online

  • Pingback: free taco bell gift cards

  • Pingback: Actor Images

  • Pingback: MOT YORK

  • Pingback: MOT YORK

  • Pingback: Business Jet Aircraft

  • Pingback: abrode telugu at TeluguPeople.com - Telugu People from ...

  • Pingback: Life Insurance

  • Pingback: sell my house fast

  • Pingback: make money online free

  • Pingback: viagra

  • Pingback: UND Aviation

  • Pingback: UND Aerospace Degree

  • Pingback: UND Aerospace Degree

  • Pingback: diabetes miracle cure

  • Pingback: sell my Portland house fast

  • Pingback: series streaming gratuit

  • Pingback: streaming illimite

  • Pingback: masaj izmir

  • Pingback: dpstream

  • Pingback: mattress singapore

  • Pingback: mattress singapore

  • Pingback: guaranteed services

  • Pingback: storage auction

  • Pingback: click here

  • Pingback: obat tradisional jantung bengkak

  • Pingback: free advertising

  • Pingback: 3ds

  • Pingback: Storage Auctions

  • Pingback: overhead door company in Guilford CT

  • Pingback: shy bladder cure

  • Pingback: Christian t shirt design

  • Pingback: madden nfl mobile hack

  • Pingback: top voip providers

  • Pingback: voip provider

  • Pingback: make money with clickbank and google

  • Pingback: long beach

  • Pingback: HOW TO LOSE WEIGHT QUICKLY

  • Pingback: Click Here

  • Pingback: Janome

  • Pingback: Garage door repair yonkers

  • Pingback: all natural luxury cotton mattress protector queen

  • Pingback: john deere childrens whipper snipper

  • Pingback: 12 great western reserve brut nv

  • Pingback: clowns

  • Pingback: vacation cabins

  • Pingback: eventmanagerin

  • Pingback: Cloud software

  • Pingback: sex toys

  • Pingback: taco man long beach

  • Pingback: web design for law firms

  • Pingback: HostingExperts.org

  • Pingback: overhead line material

  • Pingback: how to make money online fast

  • Pingback: school for makeup artists

  • Pingback: minoxidil comprar

  • Pingback: tempur-pedic mattress reviews

  • Pingback: oakland real estate

  • Pingback: Build-a-Bear Workshop

  • Pingback: blood testing

  • Pingback: homes in oakland

  • Pingback: viagra online

  • Pingback: Medicine in CHINA

  • Pingback: binaryoptionstradingx.com

  • Pingback: Anonymous

  • Pingback: Fake Steroids Canada

  • Pingback: Continue reading

  • Pingback: to learn more

  • Pingback: tempat sampah 120 liter

  • Pingback: our social profile

  • Pingback: Western and Sunset

  • Pingback: Uneven Bars

  • Pingback: Hilton Member

  • Pingback: stanton optical sacramento

  • Pingback: ???? ???? ????? ????????

  • Pingback: Cat Grooming Erdingdon

  • Pingback: ?????????

  • Pingback: Prediksi Bola

  • Pingback: important source

  • Pingback: Vehicle Protection Coatings - Protect Your Vehicle Paintwork

  • Pingback: web

  • Pingback: www.binaryoptionstradingx.com

  • Pingback: furniture repair

  • Pingback: Porno

  • Pingback: new orleans restaurants yelp

  • Pingback: x-loop

  • Pingback: Christmas Cash Loans

  • Pingback: royal nautisme

  • Pingback: mallorca escort

  • Pingback: izmir masöz

  • Pingback: photographe paris professionnel studio meilleur

  • Pingback: pittsburgh landscaping services

  • Pingback: Anonymous

  • Pingback: Skin NV

  • Pingback: Vacation St.lucia

  • Pingback: network marketing

  • Pingback: cheap term assurance

  • Pingback: technology

  • Pingback: nyx blus swatches

  • Pingback: 411-pain

  • Pingback: Income Protection

  • Pingback: buy cheap youtube likes

  • Pingback: scottsdale nails

  • Pingback: bounce house party rentals

  • Pingback: cheap bounce house rentals

  • Pingback: Vancouver Chiropractor

  • Pingback: Web Design Dubai

  • Pingback: Strip club directory

  • Pingback: free spins netent

  • Pingback: food

  • Pingback: home improvement

  • Pingback: buy vietnamese dong

  • Pingback: Alhambra appliance service provider

  • Pingback: new Prefab homes

  • Pingback: feed the beast mod

  • Pingback: forge

  • Pingback: nj heating repair

  • Pingback: Bali wedding photographer

  • Pingback: check my blog for updates

  • Pingback: tros radar opgelicht

  • Pingback: appliance repair company

  • Pingback: escort vienna

  • Pingback: www.myfoxtampabay.com/story/26348442/john-morgan-grady-judd-on-florida-medical-marijuana-amendment

  • Pingback: kliknij

  • Pingback: choosing an affiliate network

  • Pingback: Home Improvement

  • Pingback: baldness

  • Pingback: strona

  • Pingback: wix vs squarespace

  • Pingback: wedding dance lessons Pasadena

  • Pingback: Anonymous

  • Pingback: brass bells

  • Pingback: Rick Vaughn Radio Consulting

  • Pingback: saut en parachute soulac

  • Pingback: eliminate cellulite

  • Pingback: make money online

  • Pingback: Instagram privacy gone wrong

  • Pingback: pinganillos

  • Pingback: agen betting bola

  • Pingback: colon cleanse mucoid plaque

  • Pingback: tutaj

  • Pingback: Dresdner Christstollen kaufen

  • Pingback: full time and part time work available

  • Pingback: euromillions

  • Pingback: River City Door

  • Pingback: Naturkosmetik

  • Pingback: jokes and pictures

  • Pingback: maximum shred

  • Pingback: porno

  • Pingback: videos porno

  • Pingback: info and video about the Scottsdale Area

  • Pingback: buy youtube views

  • Pingback: joanna shields bbc article

  • Pingback: Reality Sandwich

  • Pingback: dog sitting naples

  • Pingback: upgrade dropbox

  • Pingback: I Want To Get Pregnant

  • Pingback: dc locksmith

  • Pingback: kroken

  • Pingback: Blinds

  • Pingback: online grocery list

  • Pingback: orjinal lida

  • Pingback: Car Rental Bristol Airport

  • Pingback: How to create a blog for free

  • Pingback: strona

  • Pingback: It's SHAOLIN811, Fitness Channel

  • Pingback: It's SHAOLIN811, Fitness Channel

  • Pingback: here outdoor

  • Pingback: here

  • Pingback: koto anau

  • Pingback: Cancun

  • Pingback: instant degrees review

  • Pingback: four corner alliance group

  • Pingback: four corners alliance group

  • Pingback: resources troubleshooting

  • Pingback: water ionizer

  • Pingback: Men's black blanket scarf

  • Pingback: Unibank Panama corrupcion

  • Pingback: here decorative

  • Pingback: xxx

  • Pingback: saut en parachute soulac

  • Pingback: viagra

  • Pingback: flyme

  • Pingback: life coach training free

  • Pingback: find a life coach

  • Pingback: buy likes

  • Pingback: jobs for gas safe engineers

  • Pingback: ammunition

  • Pingback: vacaciones

  • Pingback: R?sultats CAN 2015

  • Pingback: canadian viagra

  • Pingback: vegan

  • Pingback: Make it come true!

  • Pingback: Make real money online

  • Pingback: Godaddy coupons Code

  • Pingback: site

  • Pingback: Faustina Molnar

  • Pingback: Moving COmpany Auckland

  • Pingback: stryker hip recall

  • Pingback: dreamhost coupon

  • Pingback: Porno

  • Pingback: dreamhost coupons

  • Pingback: dreamhost promo code

  • Pingback: pizza vesoul

  • Pingback: Los angeles fashion photographer

  • Pingback: boat canvas repair

  • Pingback: Ecig wholesale

  • Pingback: electronic cigarette wholesale

  • Pingback: free proxies daily

  • Pingback: Read the Full Posting

  • Pingback: watch anime dub

  • Pingback: Barnett Ghost 410 Review

  • Pingback: gambling

  • Pingback: Website

  • Pingback: farming simulator 2015 mods

  • Pingback: gold ira rollover

  • Pingback: koto anau

  • Pingback: fake farm video

  • Pingback: Chicago Process Servers

  • Pingback: klinik aborsi

  • Pingback: Tungsten Alloy

  • Pingback: Live Models

  • Pingback: irish walking sticks

  • Pingback: Viagra

  • Pingback: crown at robinson

  • Pingback: itn marketing

  • Pingback: like this

  • Pingback: Pure Garcinia Cambogia Extract

  • Pingback: novelty techpoint

  • Pingback: chicago sex crimes lawyer

  • Pingback: sql server query optimizer

  • Pingback: link shortener