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10 Reasons the Crucifixion Story Makes No Sense

Does God exist?  You wouldn't think so given the bizarre crucifixion story.I’m afraid that the crucifixion story doesn’t strike me as that big a deal.

The Christian will say that death by crucifixion was a horrible, humiliating way to die.  That the death of Jesus was a tremendous sacrifice, more noble and selfless than a person sacrificing himself for the benefit of a butterfly.  And isn’t it worth praising something that gets us into heaven?

Here are ten reasons why I’m unimpressed.

1. Sure, death sucks, but why single out this one?  Lots of people die.  In fact, lots died from crucifixion.  The death of one man doesn’t make all the others insignificant.  Was Jesus not a man but actually a god?  If so, that fact has yet to be shown.

It’s not like this death is dramatically worse than death today.  Crucifixion may no longer be a worry, but cancer is.  Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer.

2. What about that whole hell thing?  An eternity of torment for even a single person makes Jesus’s agony insignificant by comparison, and it counts for nothing when you consider the billions that are apparently going to hell.

3. Jesus didn’t even die.  The absurdity of the story, of course, is the resurrection.  If Jesus died, there’s no miraculous resurrection, and if there’s a resurrection, there’s no sacrifice through death.  Miracle or sacrifice—you can’t have it both ways.  The gospels don’t say that he died for our sins but that he had a rough couple of days for our sins.

4. Taking on the sin vs. removal of sin aren’t symmetric.  We didn’t do anything to get original sin.  We just inherited it from Adam.  So why do we have to do anything to get the redemption?  If God demands a sacrifice, he got it.  That’s enough.  Why the requirement to believe to access the solution?

5. The reason behind the sacrifice—mankind’s original sin—makes no sense.  Why blame Adam for a moral lapse that he couldn’t even understand?  Remember that he hadn’t yet eaten the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, so who could blame him when he made a moral mistake?

And how can we inherit original sin from Adam?  Why blame us for something we didn’t do?  That’s not justice, and the Bible agrees:

Parents are not to be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their parents; each will die for their own sin (Deut. 24:16)

6. Jesus made a sacrifice—big deal.  Jesus is perfect, so his doing something noble is like water flowing downhill.  It’s unremarkable since he’s only acting out his nature.  What else would you expect from a perfect being?

But imagine if I sacrificed myself for someone.  In the right circumstance, I’d risk my life for a stranger—or at least I hope I would.  That kind of sacrifice is very different.  A selfish, imperfect man acting against his nature to make the ultimate unselfish sacrifice is far more remarkable than a perfect being acting according to his nature, and yet people make sacrifices for others all the time.  So why single out the actions of Jesus?  Aren’t everyday noble actions by ordinary people more remarkable and laudable?

7. What is left for God to forgive?  The Jesus story says that we’ve sinned against God (a debt).  Let’s look at two resolutions to this debt.

(1) God could forgive the debt of sin.  You and I are asked to forgive wrongs done against us, so why can’t God?  Some Christians say that to forgive would violate God’s sense of justice, but when one person forgives another’s debt, there’s no violation of justice.  For unspecified reasons, God doesn’t like this route.

And that leaves (2) where Jesus pays for our sin.  But we need to pick 1 or 2, not both.  If Jesus paid the debt, there’s no need for God’s forgiveness.  There’s no longer anything for God to forgive, since there’s no outstanding debt.

Here’s an everyday example: when I pay off my mortgage, the bank doesn’t in addition forgive my debt.  There’s no longer a debt to forgive!  Why imagine that God must forgive us after he’s already gotten his payment?

8. The Jesus story isn’t even remarkable within mythology.  Jesus’s sacrifice was small compared to the Greek god Prometheus, who stole fire from Olympus and gave it to humanity.  Zeus discovered the crime and punished Prometheus by chaining him to a rock so that a vulture could eat his liver.  Each night, his liver grew back and the next day the vulture would return, day after agonizing day.  The gospel story, where Jesus is crucified once and then pops back into existence several days later, is unimpressive by comparison.

9. The Bible itself rejects God’s savage “justice.”  This is the 21st century.  Must Iron Age customs persist so that we need a human sacrifice?  If God loves us deeply and he wants to forgive us, couldn’t he just … forgive us?  That’s how we do it, and that’s the lesson we get from the parable of the Prodigal Son where the father forgives the son even after being wronged by him.  If that’s the standard of mercy, why can’t God follow it?  Since God is so much greater a being than a human, wouldn’t he be that much more understanding and willing to forgive?

If we were to twist the Prodigal Son parable to match the crucifixion story, the father might demand that the innocent son be flogged to pay for the crime of the prodigal son.  Where’s the logic in that?

10. The entire story is incoherent.  Let’s try to stumble through the drunken logic behind the Jesus story.

God made mankind imperfect and inherently vulnerable to sin.  Living a sinless life is impossible, so hell becomes unavoidable.  That is, God creates people knowing for certain that they’re going to deserve eternity in hell when they die.  Why create people that he knew would be destined for eternal torment?

But don’t worry—God sacrificed Jesus, one of the persons of God, so mankind could go to heaven instead.

So God sacrificed himself to himself so we could bypass a rule that God made himself and that God deliberately designed us to never be able to meet?  I can’t even understand that; I certainly feel no need to praise God for something so nonsensical.  It’s like an abused wife thanking her abuser.  We can just as logically curse God for consigning us to hell from birth.

Perhaps I can be forgiven for being unimpressed by the crucifixion story.

Photo credit: Wikimedia

About Bob Seidensticker
  • Rick Townsend

    Bob,

    We have discussed most of these issues in the past. There are solid answers for each of your claims above. There is a short book by Josh McDowell, “More than a Carpenter,” that covers nearly all of what you raised. It is available as a Kindle download and is very affordable. If you are really serious about getting well reasoned answers, I would direct you there. But I also just found an online book, most of which is available free and the index is great. It is “Beyond Belief to Convictions,” by Josh McDowell, Bob Hostetler and David H. Bellis, I don’t if its possible to a web reference in this comments section, so here it is (rather lengthy) or you can Google which is how I found it. A very thorough refutation of your point.
    See http://books.google.com/books?id=94oWZ5-IIwEC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=mcdowell+swoon&source=bl&ots=vY_nsNohKe&sig=l4UctqdbCusXYA-oOVc-wE_VfXk&hl=en&ei=vA7NTtqJDsiPsAK_ncDXCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false.

    LIFE AND DEATH
    One background discussion about life and death in scripture may help with the other issues I didn’t find in those books. In the Bible, life and death have both a physical and a spiritual dimension. Life means union, death means separation. Physical death, therefore, is the separation of my body from my spirit. Spiritual death is the separation of my spirit from God’s spirit. If we choose to reject God in this life by rejecting the payment Jesus offered, then God will also allow us to live out that choice by not forcing us to be in his presence eternally. That is called hell.

    Jesus experienced the spiritual death He did not deserve by being separated from His Father. Since He hadn’t sinned personally, he did not need to be separated, but experienced it on the cross. We know this because stated, “My God, why have you forsaken me?” As he was thinking out loud and praying, he expressed the devastating experience of being separated from His Father for the first time in eternity. Before he died, he said, “It is finished.” This indicates to most of us that the payment was complete and the separation he experienced during his torture and execution had finished paying for sin even before he died physically.

    But physical death is also an outcome of Adam’s sin and the resulting fall, so Jesus experienced that, too. He died physically, and the witnesses attested to several medically unknown then, but known now confirmations of death. Modern doctors have given remarkable testimony to the water mixed with blood narrative bearing adequate witness to his physical death. His resurrection on the third day demonstrated that 1) he had conquered physical death, and 2) more importantly, since God gave him power to come back to life physically, he had victory over the penalty for sin. That discussion helps answer several of your questions and is more exhaustively covered in any number of references I can provide if you are seriously interested in learning more.

    Answers to Bob’s 10 Questions:

    1) Answered in McDowell, “More than a Carpenter,” chapter 1, “What makes Jesus so Different?”

    2) See discussion above.

    3) Covered in an online resource, (free!) that I just found. See Beyond Belief to Convictions, page 261, topics “The Stolen Body Theory,” and “The Great Swoon Theory.” Or Google . That is how I came across the reference.

    4) A perceptive question you have asked here! Somewhat theologically complex, but here is a simple way to look at it. It is the same as the choice which has consequences. You can believe I can fly you to Richmond and get on my airplane. But the act of demonstrating that trust by getting on the airplane and strapping in is efficacious. Without placing trust in Christ’s payment apart from any other source of hope, you haven’t had the consequence of sin in your life removed.

    5) Another complex question with a simple answer. We die for Adam’s imputed sin, but more importantly for our own. I have violated God’s moral laws. Have you? If so then focus on the need for payment for your own sins. The more complex theological issues about imputed sin become moot.

    6) Covered in McDowell, “More than a Carpenter,” chapter 1, “What makes Jesus so Different?” Also probably in the online resource above. I’m pretty pumped to have found that one for you. Lots of material and with a good index!

    7) Another complex theological question. The short answer is in the Life and Death discussion above—we live out what we choose here. If we get through all the other questions satisfactorily, we can return to the more complex ones like this one.

    8) This one has been thoroughly refuted by many. One of the best I found was this one (Jesus a copycat savior? – A Christian response
    kingdavid8.com/Copycat/Home.html) which takes on the issue in a straightforward manner, and also refutes 78 separate mythologies in alphabetical order.

    9) God’s justice demands a sacrifice. That is what the entire OT system of sacrifices was about. The prodigal son story really tells a story of incredible mercy to forgive, and demonstrates God the Father’s desire to forgive, even paying for the cost of the feast and killing the fatted calf. The parables are told to illustrate specific points, not to be theologically complete in every parable.

    10) God sacrificed His Son not to bypass a rule, but to fulfill it. He did this because of His incredible love for you. Can you imaging loving someone enough to risk your own life? Sure you can. You said you hoped you would. Can you imagine loving another enough to sacrifice your own son for that person? Neither can I. You wouldn’t sacrifice your own son, and I wouldn’t do that either. In God’s case, He knew the outcome, but still had to watch the process in painful agony for the son and the father. I’d rather go through the pain myself than watch Andrew go through it, and you’d likely rather (if the choice had to be made) do it yourself rather than choosing to subject Bobby to it. That is how much God loves YOU though, Bob. It isn’t academic.

    See how easy that was? (To quote Bob Seidensticker in an earlier reply!)

    Rick

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      It is “Beyond Belief to Convictions,” by Josh McDowell, Bob Hostetler and David H. Bellis

      Thanks for the link.

      “My God, why have you forsaken me?”

      And another interpretation is that the book of Mark was written at a time when Jesus was seen as a moral (though perhaps extraordinary) man who was given divinity. Remember that Mark has Jesus baptized by John (huh??) as opposed to being divine from birth (Matt, Luke) or from the beginning of time (John). When crucified, this mortal man (in Mark) asked why the plan had gone awry.

      But physical death is also an outcome of Adam’s sin and the resulting fall, so Jesus experienced that, too.

      I have a rough idea of the theology; I’m simply saying that it makes no sense.

      Modern doctors have given remarkable testimony to the water mixed with blood narrative bearing adequate witness to his physical death.

      I don’t see what’s remarkable. If crucifixion was a common event, they would be quite familiar with what happens when people die from it.

      I have the book. I think it was handed out at a Josh McDowell event (a nice way to boost your sales figures!). However, I haven’t read it. I have no aversion to doing so, it’s just finding the time.

      “The Stolen Body Theory,” and “The Great Swoon Theory.”

      I’m the last person to push these theories, so if you also don’t like them, high five! My point stands–you can’t have both a miracle and a sacrifice with Jesus’s death. (Unless you think being out of the picture for a couple of days is a noteworthy sacrifice.)

      I have violated God’s moral laws. Have you?

      I make lots of moral errors, if that’s what you’re asking. You’re stuck in the story, trying to rationalize ways to still cling to it. The answers look much more reasonable if you consider non-Christian answers as well.

      Jesus a copycat savior? – A Christian response

      And that’s not what we’re talking about in #8.

      The parables are told to illustrate specific points, not to be theologically complete in every parable.

      And this doesn’t address why God can’t follow his own advice (#9).

      10) God sacrificed His Son not to bypass a rule, but to fulfill it.

      He bypassed the rule that said, “No one may enter heaven who’s not morally perfect.”

      Can you imagine loving another enough to sacrifice your own son for that person? Neither can I.

      Did I miss that in the Jesus story? Jesus was sacrificed? I didn’t see that. I saw where he had a bad weekend, but after that he was up and about, back to his full vigor. I know what “sacrifice your son” means, and this isn’t it.

      See how easy that was? (To quote Bob Seidensticker in an earlier reply!)

      I didn’t respond directly to many of your points because your rebuttals are simply rationalizations of how Christianity adapts to the issues I point out. I already understand that. I appreciate how Christianity can get along with these problems, but this again amounts to explaining your theology. That is, given your presuppositions, this is how you make them fit with the facts. Got it. I’m looking, without presupposition, for the best explanation, and the Christian one isn’t it.

      BTW, if you’re looking for more atheists to hang out with, let me recommend Freethought Blogs. Pharyngula is PZ Myers (very prolific), and Greta Christina does a great job too. Not all of their blogs are on atheism. Reasonable Doubts is my favorite podcast, though I don’t have time to read their blog much. FYI.

  • Bob Calvan

    Boy where do I start? Or do I even bother?

    I love my brother Rick Townsend, but he has made a theological mess of the Death of Chrst.

    And I see the hatered and miscaracatures from Bob the Athesist.. Nothing is more absurd to see a blind man leading the blind. Bob, as scripture affirms is unable to understand spiritual things. Bob’s mind is darkened and does not have the ability to read and understand the word of God. As Bob is at emnity with God. As of now it seems as though God has left Bob in his inregenerate state. And Bob is a vessel of wrath fitted for distruction.( Romans 9 ) . God the potter makes some vessels ( out of he same lump of clay) for Honor ( the Elect) and some for dishoner. The rest of mankind. Like Bob the athesit. Bod is still responsible because Bob knows this God in his heart but Bob rejects Him in unrigheousness and untruth. And raises his family to hate the Triune God.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      I love my brother Rick Townsend, but he has made a theological mess of the Death of Chrst.

      :-) I’ll let you two brothers figure it out.

      Bob’s mind is darkened and does not have the ability to read and understand the word of God.

      And the Muslim or Buddhist or Shintoist shakes his head at the sorry state your mind is in. Do you care? If not, why should I care any about your interpretation of my religious failiings?

      As Bob is at emnity with God.

      And do you have enmity for Zeus?

      Bod is still responsible because Bob knows this God in his heart but Bob rejects Him in unrigheousness and untruth.

      So I’m actually a theist because I believe in God??

  • Bob Calvan

    I will go over each false point Bob has made. And correct brother Townsend. After Thanksgiving. Bob is a slave top his presuppositions.. Every thing Bob reads or hears his presupposition that God does not exist and there is no supernatural worldview kicks in. Everything Bob reads is through his false presuppositions that the Triune God does not exist.

    One item I will address is how both Bob and Rick Do not understand what Jesus meant when He said “My God why have you forsaken me”. Both of you missed it?

  • Bob Calvan

    To Rick Townsend

    Please e-mail me so we can talk privately about the death of Chrsit. I see no need for an Atheist to be privilaged to discuss this important doctrine of the Church.
    my e-mail is :
    pcalvan@cox.net Thanks

  • RandomFunction2

    Hi Bob,

    Did you know that many Catholic theologians no longer accept the sacrificial view of the Cross?

    Another point is that in my theology, it’s not the case that billions of people suffer eternal torment. Even if billions don’t share my beliefs. Few people end up in hell. And those that are in hell can theoretically change their mind and receive God’s forgiveness so that they make it to heaven. Of course it’s also possible that a few ones will persist eternally in hell.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      I doubt that this is as superficial as you just making it up as you go along, but it seems odd that you give yourself license to decide what’s what in the celestial domain. The idea of objective moral truths seems ridiculous to me, and here you are defining the entrance requirements for hell!

      • RandomFunction2

        Hi Bob,

        Well, I start with the premiss that God is good and loving and I try to make sense of it when it comes to our eternal destiny.

  • RandomFunction2

    To BobC,

    It’s not because Bob S does not believe in God that God does not believe in him!

  • Bob Calvan

    To RF2

    “…Did you know that many Catholic theologians no longer accept the sacrificial view of the Cross?
    Well if that were true ( which it is not) they would no longer be Catholics. Because the entire RCC system is based on the Mass and the Eucharist. Which is a representation of the Sacrafice of Chrsit. The whole RCC is a sacraficial dogmatic infalable system for all it’s congregation. I disagree with the RCC works system of Salvation but what you are saying is absurd. To say on can be a RC theologian and Deny the (infalable) tenents of Rome is an oxymoron.
    Your next absurd statement was:
    Another point is that in my theology, it’s not the case that billions of people suffer eternal torment. Even if billions don’t share my beliefs. Few people end up in hell. And those that are in hell can theoretically change their mind and receive God’s forgiveness so that they make it to heaven. Of course it’s also possible that a few ones will persist eternally in hell.
    And where did you come up with this new theology? Can you give one verse from the word of Gods to support shuch a wild view?

    You obviously made it up in you own mind. Nise little fantasy story. Please

  • Bob Calvan

    RF2
    Please give us one verse of scripture to support your view on hell. Jesus who preached more on Hell than anything else seems to diagree with your subjective opinion.

    What are you smoking?

  • Bob Calvan

    Bob said:
    ” I’m afraid that the crucifixion story doesn’t strike me as that big a deal…”

    Are not the inspired scriptures wonderful.. Look at Bob’s statement..And (1 Cor.) the Bible affirms Bob quote. It says : For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing , but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

    Well, that says it all Bob is perishing so he will never understand the Power of the crucifixion, or what it means. Also the Bible say’s the FOOL in his heart says there is no God.
    When the Bible calls Bob a fool it is not just name calling. It refers to Bob has a dull mind that is not able to understand the power of God..Only those born again have a new mind.

    Bob says:

    ” The Christian will say that death by crucifixion was a horrible, humiliating way to die. That the death of Jesus was a tremendous sacrifice, more noble and selfless than a person sacrificing himself for the benefit of a butterfly. And isn’t it worth praising something that gets us into heaven?…”

    No, Christian’s will say there is no greater love than a sinless man becoming sin for those the Father gave the Son. That the Son takes the wrath of God for the sins of the elect.

    Bob says:

    Here are ten reasons why I’m unimpressed.

    1. Sure, death sucks, but why single out this one? Lots of people die. In fact, lots died from crucifixion. The death of one man doesn’t make all the others insignificant. Was Jesus not a man but actually a god? If so, that fact has yet to be shown.

    The issue is not that men have died or that men died from Crucifixion. The issue is Jesus as the eternal Son took on Himself the form of a man in humility to die for sinners, to become sin and pay the penalty of their sin upon Himself..That is the greatest act of lover and humility. No other man could do this, or has done this.

    Bob Said:
    ” It’s not like this death is dramatically worse than death today. Crucifixion may no longer be a worry, but cancer is. Six hours of agony on the cross is pretty bad, but so is six months of agony from cancer….”

    Again the physical death is not the issue. It is the power of God in the Crucifixion that redeems those the Father gives the Son. And removes the wrath of God from those the Father gave to Jesus. That the sinless Son took upon Himself the sins of those the Father gave Him.

    I will answer 2 through 10 one at a time to avoid to much reading. And to show Bob is a “fool” and has no idea what he is talking about when he attacks the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing , but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

      Uh, yeah.

      (And I guess we ignore your dismissing the other religions as foolishness?)

      The issue is Jesus as the eternal Son took on Himself the form of a man in humility to die for sinners

      Your arguments seem to pretty universally take the form of a rationalization or theology dissertation. I don’t doubt that you can convince yourself that the facts and your theology are in sync. As for the theology, I’ve heard most of it before.

      This isn’t how we find the truth. We come into the discussion with an unbiased mind and follow the facts where they lead. I don’t remember any of your arguments going down this path.

  • Bob Calvan

    “This isn’t how we find the truth. We come into the discussion with an unbiased mind and follow the facts where they lead. I don’t remember any of your arguments going down this path…”

    Really? What truths and facts do you have that says a Jesus did not die on a cross?.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      In the first place, this doesn’t respond to my claim that your arguments have been rationalizations and summaries of your theology and not an unbiased following of the facts where they lead.

      To answer your question, I have little interest in whether a man named Jesus died on a cross. Lots of people were crucified; that at least one was named Yeshua/Joshua sounds quite possible. The entire Gospel story, however, is no more than a story.

      If you’re saying that I don’t have any direct evidence that any particular Jesus didn’t die on a cross, that’s right. What do you conclude from that? (I also have no direct evidence that Zeus didn’t throw lightning bolts.)

  • Paul

    Hi Bob,
    Remember what I said about not just listening but having a look for yourself. I challenge you to do that.
    You said, “This isn’t how we find the truth. We come into the discussion with an unbiased mind and follow the facts where they lead. I don’t remember any of your arguments going down this path.”
    Do yourself a favour Bob and read the Bible and find the truth.
    1. Jesus is not God, but his son.
    2. Jesus did not die on a cross, but on an upright post with no cross beam. Hence was not crusified.
    You state as fact things that are not true Bob because you continually quote others who have it wrong.

    • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

      OK, thanks for the input.

  • Bob Calvan

    To Paul:

    Ahh, I see you are a J.W. ?

    Tell me how Jesus is God’s son.. How did that come about?

    • Paul

      Have you read the Bible or are you like the other Bob? An arm chair critic?

  • Bob Calvan

    Paul

    Yes I have read the Bible..I am not an arm chair critic. I asked you 2 questions? Here they are again.
    Tell me how Jesus is God’s son.. How did that come about?
    I prefer you to exegete my questions with Scripture. Thank you.

    • Paul

      Hi Bob,
      Sorry for the delay, life is busy.
      The Bible clearly explains that Jesus came from God and was born as a human on earth through Mary. Gal 4:4; Heb 2:9.
      Prior to this he had been in heaven with his father Jehovah and assissted with creation Col 1:15-17; Rev 3:14. Indicating a pre-human existence from which God transfered his spirit life to that of a human, via the embryo in Mary’s womb. No real challenge for God or mystery for us, as humans can do something similar today.
      This relationship as Gods son is clear when he was baptised in the Jordon by John. A voice came out of the heavens and declared, “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” Matt 3:17; Mark 1:11; Luke 3:22. It is interesting that John the baptised proclaimed that Jesus was God’s Son, after he baptised him. John 1:34.
      I am sure that answers your questions scripturally.
      I have a question for you Bob. I am not sure if you believe in the trinity, but if Jesus were God, who resurrected Jesus after he had been dead for 3 days? Ample proof that he was resurrected as upwards of 500 people saw him. 1Cor 15:3-8.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Ample proof that he was resurrected as upwards of 500 people saw him. 1Cor 15:3-8.

        This may have been directed at Bob C. If not, I’ll jump in.

        Yes, Paul claims that 500 saw Jesus. But isn’t it quite odd that this important evidence finds its way into zero gospels?

        And while apologists often point to this passage, I fail to see the value. Yeah, Paul makes the claim. So what? He gives no names. I can’t even imagine that this was convincing even in the first century: how many people in Corinth went to Jerusalem to check this out? And why would this be compelling to me? I can’t interview them.

        If it were completely made up by Paul, how would we know?

        My standard for evidence of your God must be far, far higher than yours. Which surprises me–don’t you want to really verify this? Or are you only concerned about supporting your presuppositions (as is the case with many Christians)?

        • Paul

          Bob you are mistaken again.
          Consider that when Paul wrote to the Corinthians it was only 23 after the death of Jesus and quite a number of the eye witnesses were still alive. As he said “…most of whom remain to this day.” If it were not true these others would have disputed his claim. Also no enemies of Christianity at the time disputed these things.
          Have you actually seen what scientists have done or just read about their discoveries? You accept their word Bob just as we accept the word of witnesses. Read your Bible Bob you may come to believe too.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        quite a number of the eye witnesses were still alive. As he said “…most of whom remain to this day.” If it were not true these others would have disputed his claim. Also no enemies of Christianity at the time disputed these things.

        I’ve address this with this post: “10 Reasons to Just Say Nay to the Naysayer Hypothesis.”

        You accept their word Bob just as we accept the word of witnesses.

        There’s a difference between the trust I have in the results of science (which proves its claims) and the faith one would have in religion.

        • Paul

          I know who I will trust on that score Bob. I think I will trust the one who made earth, sea, sun, moon and stars rather than the ones trying to figure out where they are from thanks.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Who is this creator of everything, and how do we know that the claims about him are true?

        We can’t begin with our conclusions.

        • Paul

          No you can’t begin with your conclusions, simply because your conclusions are based on there being no creator. If you start with an erroneous beginning, your conclusions will be erroneous too.

          The Bible calls the creator Jehovah. You want know until you have a read yourself, instead of reading others claims. You may well find the read enlightening. I did.

          A scientists once said (can’t remember his name at present, but I will look it up) the the creator must be a “mathmetician of a very high order” to design what we see today.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        No you can’t begin with your conclusions, simply because your conclusions are based on there being no creator.

        I don’t start with any presupposition (to the best of my ability). I’m simply asking that everyone else do the same.

        • Paul

          I did that many years ago and I am convinced that there must be a designer/creator for what I see around me. The more I observe the more I am convinced that intelligence is behind all life.
          I discussed this with you about the design of the DNA, that little squid and there are many other things we discover everyday that only a intelligence being the source of such things is the logical answer. The Apostle Paul said that “Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but he that contructed all things is God.” I can’t help but agree.

      • http://galileounchained.com Bob Seidensticker

        Paul:

        I discussed this with you about the design of the DNA, that little squid and there are many other things we discover everyday that only a intelligence being the source of such things is the logical answer.

        And when you challenge the biologists (the people who really understand the tenets of evolution, unlike us) with your DNA challenge, what happens? I’m guessing they remain satisfied that evolution explains things best. And if it doesn’t convince the experts, what can I do but follow their lead?


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