Christianity is Self-Defeating

Why settle for a Hollywood cutout when you can have the real thing?The book of Exodus gives God’s demand that the Jews avoid foreign religions when they returned to Canaan. The first commandment was, “You shall have no other gods before me” (Ex. 20:3). God had to make sure that they weren’t corrupted.

[SFX: Record scratch]

Wait a minute—how could they have been corrupted?

The Jews enter a land full of foreign gods—invented gods—but God had made plain the correct religion. How would those made-up gods look next to the real deal? Judaism would be a stunning and brilliant jewel compared to the other religions’ tawdry plastic beads.

Imagine the Hollywood set of a Western town, built with plywood facades, compared to a real building—a castle full of antiques and tapestries, say. Who’d be tempted to stray to the cutout imposter if you could have the real thing?

Another example: imagine that God provided Disney World for the Jews but warned against moving into the filthy trailer park across the street. Why bother with the warning? How could anyone possibly be tempted?

Similarly, with the Jews given the correct religion, how could God have ever been worried that another religion would be the least bit compelling?

… or maybe Judaism didn’t look special. Perhaps the prohibitions—remember that these were imposed by priests whose livelihood depended on Yahweh worship—made a lot of sense because in fact Yahweh of early Judaism looked similar to Chemosh, Molech, Baal, and other gods of the Canaanite religions.

The Bible’s own prohibitions argue that Judaism was made up, just like the rest.

If God exists, I hope he has a good excuse.
— Woody Allen

(This is a modified version of a post that originally appeared 9/30/11.)

Photo credit: Wikipedia

About Bob Seidensticker
  • Dain Q. Gore

    That phenomenon you are describing is known as anthropomorphism (like the polar bear “wave”), and is largely discouraged at modern zoos (excepting perhaps Sea World)–at least in North America–because it promotes “taming and training” especially inhumane and impractical if they are to be reintroduced into the wild.

  • Davey Jones

    You are making God’s point for him. God appeared on a mountain top, split the Guld of Aqaba and brought bread/manna from the sky and weeks later people still didn’t believe in him! How were they tempted? Simple they were weak minded and had little faith. Moses went up and talked to God and people said he’s taking too long lets worship a golden calf. People’s desire to be pacified in their desires (large miracles) by God constantly otherwise they would turn away from him shows the stubbornness. It was as if these people and the people of today require a miracle every hour and if not stop believing in God. God’s way of showing how small peoples faith is seen in exodus. Put yourself in God’s shoes for a second, you would get frustrated if people kept needing massive miracles just to believe in you all the time. Picture a child in the cot in another room crying all the the night long for his parents, not grasping that they are still there just in another room.

    • adam

      “You are making God’s point for him. God appeared on a mountain top,
      split the Guld of Aqaba and brought bread/manna from the sky and weeks
      later people still didn’t believe in him! ”

      Because it is mythology, God is IMAGINARY.

      “ut yourself in God’s shoes for a second, you would get frustrated if
      people kept needing massive miracles just to believe in you all the
      time. ”

      You mean all all-knowing God, has no clue what will happen with what it creates?

      Demonstrates human IMAGINATION and STORY TELLING.

      https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7786df5050a13684367f90eb753b953b17c746ef048fe8e05b1f3a989a977fd3.jpg

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      Give me sufficient evidence, and I’ll believe. Got any?

      • Davey Jones

        For the exodus story? Ron wyatt found the dead sea crossing site, the (golden calf, burnt mountain, split stone and 12 altars) site
        For God himself? Only you yourself can set the parameters for that. I could show or tell you things which I believe are God, you might bat off as strange coincidences. I think the disciples must have seen something as they wouldn’t have died for Jesus thinking he was a false messiah, as they could have known for sure whether he was resurrected or not. I could tell you how I came to see God, so that you could try the same thing and also have a personal relationship with him. My philosophy is don’t knock anything till you’ve tried it.
        I was once an atheist, I have a degree in Physics, the honest truth I’ve found is you’ll only find God if you try to.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Yes, mere coincidences are beneath the omnipotent Creator of the Universe.

          I think the disciples must have seen something as they wouldn’t have died for Jesus thinking he was a false messiah

          In the first place, the Bible has only perhaps Stephen dying as a martyr. The other examples are extrabiblical. Second, it’s a story. It’s not history until you show it as such.

        • Davey Jones

          Exactly, so they weren’t coincidences. Lots of scholars believe a fair few of the disciples were martyr. If you see that they did, you come to terms with them knowing whether Jesus was resurrected or not. They didn’t die thinking Jesus was, they died knowing for sure that he was.

        • adam

          ” Lots of scholars believe a fair few of the disciples were martyr.”

          And of course, some probably believe the Heaven’s Gate and Jonestown dead were martyrs as well.

        • Davey Jones

          What do you think? How and when do you reckon the disciples died?

        • adam
        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          How about “We don’t know”?

          That’s like asking of King Arthur really died at the hand of Mordred at the battle of Camlann. I dunno–first assure us that Arthur was a real person and the battle was a real battle.

        • Greg G.

          The “disciples” seems to be something made up by the author of Mark which the other gospel writers borrowed. The word “disciple” or it plural are not found after the first five books of the New Testament but they do use “apostle” instead.

        • Ignorant Amos

          The word “disciple” or it plural are not found after the first five books of the New Testament but they do use “apostle” instead.

          And just to add to poor Davey’s confusion, the first five books in the the New Testament are not actually the first five books of the New Testament.

        • MNb

          Yeah, when I see what sacrifices the Waffen SS made on the Eastern Front, how courageous they were, I come to terms with them knowing white racial supremacy. They didn’t die thinking the white race is racially superior, they died knowing for sure it is.
          Or not.
          Like the christian martyrs.

          I would expect from someone with a serious degree in physics not to make the same error, because correcting errors is essential in physics. It’s what the entire science is about.
          Hence my serious doubts.

        • Davey Jones

          Respectfully you are missing my point. The disciples weren’t in a position of belief they were in a position to know for 100% sure whether christ rose or not. Ill admit they’re even at a different position than every other christian martyr since.

        • adam

          “. The disciples weren’t in a position of belief they were in a position to know for 100% sure whether christ rose or not.”

          Nope, because even in the STORY, no one was there.

          The CLAIM is, since the body wasnt where they thought it supposed to be, MAGIC happened.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2e7c85f83a051737489a88bbc6af7ae1f629a7c020304dd72287796458bc2580.jpg

        • Davey Jones

          They saw him crucified saw him placed in the tomb. Then saw him alive days later.

        • adam

          “Then saw him alive days later.”

          And yet they didnt recognize him.

          After they found the empty tomb, the gospels indicate that Jesus made a series of appearances to the disciples. He was not immediately recognizable, according to Luke.[20]:p.277 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resurrection_of_Jesus

          Probably just another person named Jesus, a common name at the time.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          According to the story. Now show that the story is worth believing.

        • MNb

          Respectfully you are missing my point. The Waffen SS weren’t in a position of belief they were in a position to know for sure whether they were racial superior or not as much as the disciples regarding the resurrection.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallucination
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-deception

          Btw the fact that you think you can know something for 100% sure (especially by means of observation) disqualifies your physics degree.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          We’ve been over this: it’s a story. You don’t conclude that it’s history without a lot of evidence.

          As for the “who would die for a lie?” argument, I respond to that here.

        • Davey Jones

          http://credohouse.org/blog/what-happened-to-the-twelve-apostles-how-do-their-deaths-prove-easter

          4 disciples here have been given A plus rating in the validity of how they died.

          John Paul Peter James

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Uh, yeah. Credo House. They sound objective. But how do they know this?

          That they only list John as not having been martyred suggests that they used Foxe’s Book of Martyrs from the 16th century, a universally discredited source.

        • Ignorant Amos

          The first problem with the martyrdom of Stephen is that it wasn’t a martyrdom. In the story, Stephen doesn’t get a choice, so no martyrdom. He is executed for blasphemy and not belief in Jesus as the messiah.

          The second problem with regards to DJ’s assertion is that Stephen wasn’t a disciple and there is no reference of him knowing Jesus or witnessing the resurrect Jesus, so even if he was martyred, it was for a blind faith, belief in a story and that blows DJ’s argument clean out of the water.

          But anyway, that is all academic, as you say, it was part of a story without substance. It’s a loada ballix.

          http://vridar.org/2013/11/26/the-fiction-of-stephen-the-first-martyr/

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Whaaa … ? I thought that “OK–Jesus was just made up!” would get you off of any crime, from public drunkeness to treason.

          At least, that’s what the apologists have led me to believe …

        • Ignorant Amos

          But Stephen wasn’t hoist for the belief in Jesus trope in the first place, so pah!

          Bad mouthing the big I am was a stoning offence regardless of what flavour of Judaism one was licking.

        • Myna

          My philosophy is don’t knock anything till you’ve tried it.

          And those who’ve tried it and came to reject it?

          I was once an atheist, I have a degree in Physics

          And that is significant, because?

          Carl Sagan held a doctorate in Astrophysics and Albert Einstein in Physics. At best, one can say they were sympathetic to the philosophy of Spinoza.

          the honest truth I’ve found is you’ll only find God if you try to.

          And which mirror do you look in, do you think? Protestantism? Which sect or denomination? Catholicism? East or West? Vodun? Hinduism? Judaism? Islam? Zoroastrianism? And all the so ons and so forths on the menu of religious options. How do you know if you’ve missed the right one if you haven’t tried them all?

        • Davey Jones

          I tried buddhism it didn’t work. I am a biblical unitarian I don’t believe in the trinity or the pre existence of Jesus. I bevel the Father alone is God.

        • Myna

          I tried buddhism it didn’t work

          Buddhism is a middle way, so not strictly a religion…as in they offer no god arguments to fight over. That is a difficult mirror for some, it is true.

          I am a biblical unitarian…the Father alone is God.

          That is your choice off the menu, certainly, but still it doesn’t answer the question about the remaining choices. What if you chose the wrong one? What if they’re all wrong? How will you know? Belief is not the synonym of truth. What do you believe that someone hasn’t told you to believe?

        • Davey Jones

          I have never met a christian in my life. America still thinks the UK is a christian country its 80+ percent atheist. Most who say they are a christian in any census’ couldn’t name one bible verse or book. I asked the God of the bible Father of Jesus to show himself and he did by a miracle.

        • adam

          “I asked the God of the bible Father of Jesus to show himself and he did by a miracle.”

          Since you have an inside line, have him show himself to us…

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/9576ddda4058806547bf4a5f8bf054d42b188a8c90b66ade467060a26ba50c29.jpg

        • Davey Jones

          Will pray now. If you notice anything let me know

        • adam

          Nothing, nada, ziltch

        • adam

          Still nothing.

          Did you get a busy signal, or his voice mail?

          Or maybe he is out finding parking spaces for his christian ‘friends’ https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/eb7675c19966c7fe78c2b9c8bec85a2be95f364b583eff0c47cd644e04a962af.jpg

        • Ignorant Amos
        • Greg G.

          Will pray now. If you notice anything let me know

          As of now, I have aged four hours since you typed that, but that is typical of every four hour period of my life.

        • Susan

          I have aged four hours since you typed that

          You don’t look a second over three minutes and forty-seven seconds older.

          How do you do it?

          Must be your wizard powers.

        • Michael Neville

          It’s the heavy makeup he wears that fools you.

        • Greg G.

          It’s not makeup. I had my face tattooed on my face a long time ago.

        • Ignorant Amos

          It’s the facial hair, it covers a multiple of sins.

        • epeeist

          I had my face tattooed on my face a long time ago.

          Oh noes! An atheist is trying to produce an actual infinity.

        • Greg G.

          I have this portrait in my attic…

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I was hungry, so I got some lunch–problem solved.

          Was that you?

        • MNb

          I notice your comment.

        • adam

          Nothing yet, try AGAIN.

          Did you piss off Jesus or something, he isnt listening.

        • adam
        • Greg G.

          I have been getting lots of phone calls asking my opinions about the way this country is being run. That almost never happens, maybe like every four years. Someone said it is because I live in a swing state, whatever that is.

        • adam

          Still nada, where is this ‘God’ of yours?

          At least Santa turns up every November… https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/102697e7faecdc67306ad919c76a1e01e698f44fbed89fa96dcc85012ac3ce5f.jpg

        • Myna

          Some folks pray for Clinton
          Some folks pray for Trump
          Let us await god’s wisdom
          for which side to call the other a chump

        • Kodie

          You were trippin.

        • Ignorant Amos

          I have never met a christian in my life.

          Except yourself of course. There’s a well known fallacy describing your position.

          no true scotsman

          You made what could be called an appeal to purity as a way to dismiss relevant criticisms or flaws of your argument.

          In this form of faulty reasoning one’s belief is rendered unfalsifiable because no matter how compelling the evidence is, one simply shifts the goalposts so that it wouldn’t apply to a supposedly ‘true’ example. This kind of post-rationalization is a way of avoiding valid criticisms of one’s argument.

          https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/no-true-scotsman

          America still thinks the UK is a christian country its 80+ percent atheist.

          Cite source please.

          Most who say they are a christian in any census’ couldn’t name one bible verse or book.

          That’s not exclusive to the UK.

          I asked the God of the bible Father of Jesus to show himself and he did by a miracle.

          Yeah, of course he did. But how do you know? Apart from wishful thinking a mean. What convinced you and what method did you use to confirm a miracle and a miracle from your personal God at that?

        • Greg G.

          Most who say they are a christian in any census’ couldn’t name one bible verse or book.

          Neither Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, James, Peter, Jude, Timothy, nor Titus could have named a single New Testament book. They could not have been True Christians.

        • MNb

          I prayed as a child (long before I even understood there were words like atheism and agnosticism) and it didn’t work. Apparently your god wasn’t very eager to make me find him.

        • Davey Jones

          That is strange I’ll give you that. Were you in complete faith God would answer your prayer to see his presence?

        • adam

          “Were you in complete faith God would answer your prayer to see his presence?”

          So IF YOU DELUDE YOURSELF first, it all works…

          What scam doesnt work that way? https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b4daa8eb8f6cdde7dc6cef1fd33a8d0acc554ea42510fdbeea6ee4c3b3b5a9c2.jpg

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Strange? Millions of ex-Christians will tell you the same thing. Heck Mother Teresa would’ve told you that!

        • MNb

          How do you determine “complete” faith?

        • https://plus.google.com/103783311760679881592/about Ophis

          Were you in complete faith God would answer your prayer to see his presence?

          Wouldn’t that eliminate the point of the prayer?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          “didn’t work”? Like Christianity does?

          If you mean by “work” that it pleases you or gets you out of the house on Sunday morning with some nice people, OK, I’ll buy that. But you’re not saying that the supernatural stuff is true, are you?

        • MNb

          “I think the disciples must have seen something as they wouldn’t have died for Jesus ”
          And I think the Waffen SS was racially superior or they wouldn’t have died at the Eastern Front between 1941 and 1945. One makes as much sense as the other.

          “he honest truth I’ve found is you’ll only find God if you try to.”
          Remarkable. Lots of people are capable of finding me without me trying, but not our god. Either he is not interested – and then, why should I? – or he does not exist.

          If you think Ron Wyatt a credible and qualified archaeologist I have some serious problems believing that you have a degree in physics. Maybe on high school level?

        • Davey Jones

          I can show you the picture of the certificate if you want? Signed and sealed
          Have you watched any of the videos? He was credible enough for the israeli authorities to allow him to start digging around the garden tomb
          The disciples are different than any other martys in history as they could have known for definite if Jesus was resurrected or not

        • adam

          “Have you watched any of the videos?”

          All of them, he is a Con Man…

          Oh, and a LIAR…

        • MNb

          If you can’t resist the urge by all means show the picture of the certificate of your (high school?) degree. Or you could just tell us what degree and where you received it.

          “He was credible enough for the israeli authorities”
          That doesn’t say anything – any loon who promises to validate the state of Israel by archeological means is credible enough for them. Plus you miss my point: I would expect anyone with a serious degree in physics seeing right through the quack methodology of someone like Ron Wyatt. That said there are some recorded bona fide loons who even received Nobel Prices in natural sciences.

          At the other hand even Ol’ Hambo, the ayatollah of the Appalachian has debunked your hero:

          https://answersingenesis.org/creationism/arguments-to-avoid/special-report-amazing-ark-expose/

          And of course like everybody he has found the Ark of Noah on the wrong place:

          http://www.ronwyatt.com/noahs_ark.html

          “The remains of Noah’s Ark …. Eastern Turkey.”

          Fact 1: Mount Ararat in Eastern Turkey only received that name at the end of the 10th Century.
          Fact 2: Gen. 8:4 talks about “the mountains of Ararat. Plural.

          This name Ararat is derived from Urartu, which was definitely not in modern Turkey, but more to the east, near Lake Van.

          And of course I would expect from someone with a serious degree on physics (even high school would suffice) to understand that a global flood like Wyat believed simply is impossible.
          Hence my serious doubts.

          The members of the Waffen SS totally could have known that white racial supremacy is bogus. There is no difference. For someone with a serious degree in physics I would expect better logical skills – especially avoiding

          https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/163/Special_Pleading

          Hence my serious doubts.
          But go ahead. Show us your precious certificate. I can’t deny I’m somewhat curious.

        • Davey Jones

          I was there at graudation I know I did it. I’m 100% secure 0 insecurity I spent 3 years of my life on it. Bsc Physics with Nanotechnology University of Hull. If you seriously think that’s a natural formation at mount ararat. I’ve got some seafront property in Birmingham I’d like to sell you.

        • epeeist

          Bsc Physics with Nanotechnology University of Hull.

          As in “Hull, Hell and Halifax”? These are the physics undergraduate courses.

        • MNb

          “If you seriously think ….”
          Totally irrelevant for the points I brought up.

        • Ignorant Amos

          He was credible enough for the israeli authorities to allow him to start digging around the garden tomb

          Was he really?

          Archaeologist Joe Zias of Israel Antiquities Authority (IAA) has stated that “Ron Wyatt is neither an archaeologist nor has he ever carried out a legally licensed excavation in Israel or Jerusalem. In order to excavate one must have at least a BA in archaeology which he does not possess despite his claims to the contrary. … [His claims] fall into the category of trash which one finds in tabloids such as the National Enquirer, Sun etc.”

          http://www.tentmaker.org/WAR/Zias.html

          You really shouldn’t be embarrassing yourself like this, you being accredited in physics and all that.

        • adam

          ” Ron wyatt found the dead sea crossing site”

          You do know that Ron Wyatt was a KNOWN con artist, right?

        • Cryny

          Not to mention it’s supposedly the Red Sea, anyway…

        • Greg G.

          Joshua would be the only character in the story who crossed the Red Sea to have possibly seen the Dead Sea.

        • adam

          Wyatt doesnt really appeal that much to intellectuals…

        • Ignorant Amos

          Or even Sea of Reeds, perhaps….

          The phrase Yam Suph occurs about 23 times in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible/Old Testament). In the narrative of the Exodus the phrase refers to the body of water which the Israelites crossed following their exodus from Egypt. The appropriate translation of the phrase remains a matter of dispute, as does the exact location referred to. One possible translation of Yam Suph is “Sea of Reeds”, (suph by itself means ‘reed’, e.g. in Exodus 2:3). This was pointed out as early as the 11th century, by Rashi.

        • Ignorant Amos

          Really? Are you shitting me?

          Ronald Eldon Wyatt (2 Jun 1933 – August 4, 1999) was an adventurer and former nurse anesthetist noted for advocating the Durupınar site as the site of Noah’s Ark, along with almost 100 other alleged Bible related discoveries. These have been dismissed by scientists, historians, biblical scholars, other Creationists and by leaders in his own Seventh-day Adventist Church, but his work continued to have a following.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ron_Wyatt

          Get yer head outta yer arse please.

        • Ignorant Amos

          I think the disciples must have seen something as they wouldn’t have died for Jesus thinking he was a false messiah, as they could have known for sure whether he was resurrected or not.

          First and foremost, no one knows the disciples, if they existed, went to their deaths for believing in Jesus.

          But in any case. Why is it necessary that they witnessed a resurrected Jesus? Thousands of people have gone to their deaths on much less. Believing all sorts of shit without evidence, and then volunteering to die for it is of a martyrs trope.

          http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/InspirationalMartyr

          By your logic, belief in other religions should be equally considered. I mean all those Muslims can’t be wrong, can they?

          Jesus Christ is probably the Trope Codifier of arguments for this. The Romans crucified a popular, charismatic, and inspirational outcast preacher (the single most humiliating version of the death penalty in their laws, to boot) in a tiny backwater occupied province. In doing so they established the cornerstone of a religion that made it to the heart of the capital within the generation of Christ’s death and would conquer the Roman Empire. Though the teaching of Christianity is that this was invoked: the reason The Christ was brought to the Earth was to redeem mankind’s sins and show the way by dying in martyrdom.

          According to some interpretations of The Four Gospels, Pontius Pilate was hoping the mob would want Jesus freed because he knew what trouble martyrs could be. Unfortunately, the Pharisees wanted Jesus dead, so they egged the mob into asking for the zealot Barabbas instead.

          http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DontCreateAMartyr

          Your incredulity is obvious.

    • MNb

      “Put yourself in God’s shoes for a second, you would get frustrated”
      A god getting frustrated sounds awfully human. This is a fine example of a god created by man – by you.

      “not grasping that they are still there just in another room”
      Presupposing what you are arguing – that there is a god.
      Spoiler: there isn’t any god.

      • Davey Jones

        Good point let me clarify by saying
        Frustrated not at himself or for his sake. As he is all knowing but frustrated for the peoples sake. In knowing that they will continue to make bad choices.

        • MNb

          You haven’t clarified anything. You have added some details irrelevant for my comment that I understood the first time already.

        • Davey Jones

          I did I clarified why God would be frustrated.

        • adam

          No, you TRIED to claim YOUR “God” is not Omnipotent or ‘All-knowing”

        • MNb

          That’s a detail irrelevant for my comment, one I understood the first time already. So I repeat:

          A god getting frustrated (for instance for the peoples sake) sounds awfully human. This is a fine example of a god created by man – by you.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I hear you. Everyone thinks that it’s easy being God. You’re omniscient and omnipotent. But the daily headaches–no one thinks of those! I mean, sure, God just dismisses each problem effortlessly with the perfect solution, but still.

        • adam

          “In knowing that they will continue to make bad choices.”

          Yet according to the story, they are just as it made them.

          It should have all-knowingly fixed this BEFORE it was for problem for it.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7786df5050a13684367f90eb753b953b17c746ef048fe8e05b1f3a989a977fd3.jpg

        • Kevin K

          Wasn’t even the devil…it was the talking snake with legs. It was hundreds of years later that someone decided that it should be a satanic talking snake with legs.

        • Greg G.

          I like to ask that if the serpent was the Devil in a serpent costume, why did God punish serpents? If the Devil blasphemed the Holy Ghost with a Davey Jones mask on, Davey would have to spend eternity in hell.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Great question.

        • adam

          Yes, I know, see how incompetent the bible “God” really is.

          And that Satan guy:

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4b5b3b80f17e93ce587cfba71ffc111c7b95727110eaa6935ebbe791523a7992.jpg

          He’s the GOOD guy in the story.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Satan as Prometheus.

        • Susan

          Satan as Prometheus.

          I remember reading Greek myths at a very young age and the role of Prometheus was so obvious, even though it was just a story.

          He was a hero for humanity.

          I could never understand why the Serpent in the Garden of Eden story wasn’t.

          Not that there’s any reason to think the Serpent was Satan.

          That was added in to reconcile the story with the stories christians needed to believe.

          The fickleness of the gods is at the heart of so many stories that humans have told and continue to tell.

        • Myna

          It’s a very intriguing study. There’s R.J. Zwi Werblowsky’s classic work, Lucifer and Prometheus: A Study of Milton’s Satan (1952) Overview here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer_and_Prometheus

          And an interesting essay [Forbidden Gnosis In Prometheus, Lucifer and Icarus] is presented here: https://theaeoneye.com/2015/05/28/forbidden-gnosis-in-prometheus-lucifer-and-icarus/

        • Kevin K

          An omniscient being cannot be frustrated by anything. Because it already knows the outcome.

          So, you’re projecting your inadequacies on your deity. Likewise, if an omniscient and omnipotent being existed, it would be able to prevent people from making “wrong choices” — like being born gay — without batting an eyelash.

          Likewise, an all-loving (omnibenevolent) deity would, as part of its essential nature, act to prevent those wrong choices if the outcome would lead the human to the point of going to the bad after-death apartment.

          You’re basically acknowledging that your god does not have any of the attributes that your theologians traditionally give to him. As for me, I don’t care; but you should be glad that the Spanish Inquisition was disbanded. I hear the strappado was quite painful.

    • https://plus.google.com/103783311760679881592/about Ophis

      Put yourself in God’s shoes for a second, you would get frustrated if
      people kept needing massive miracles just to believe in you all the
      time.

      I think I’d just keep doing miracles. Why not? It’s not like God’s going to get tired from working too much.

      • Kevin K

        Yes, for an omnipotent being, he’s quite the lazy bastard, isn’t he?

    • Ignorant Amos

      Are you shitting me?

    • Kodie

      Picture the religious coming up with this fiction just to pacify their minds because they think science is too fucking slow.