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Magic vs. Technology

In the New Testament, Jesus does lots of impressive miracles.

More precisely, they were impressive for the time. Today we surpass them with technology so regularly that we often don’t notice. Let’s compare the miracles of Jesus with what modern technology can do.

Jesus walked on the water. We can’t walk on the water, but we can travel on the water in a vast array of boats, both large and small, powered and wind driven. For example, an aircraft carrier can carry 5000 people, sail at 30+ knots, and operate for 20 years without refueling. We can travel under the water with submarines. We can fly above the water with airplanes. We have even gone to the moon.

Feeding of the 5000. We can’t feed people with magic, but we can still feed lots of people. Norman Borlaug has saved perhaps one billion lives because of improved strains of wheat, for which he won the Nobel Peace Prize. The Haber process, which turns nitrogen into ammonia, produces fertilizer that is estimated “to be responsible for sustaining one-third of the Earth’s population.”

Cursing the fig tree. Jesus was hungry, but it wasn’t the season for figs. Nevertheless, Jesus cursed a fig tree, and it withered. While we can’t destroy trees with magic, we’ve got the destruction thing figured out. We have herbicide that kills plants. We have chain saws and bulldozers. We have dynamite and hydrogen bombs.

Miraculous catch of fish. We can’t catch fish with magic, but modern fishing trawlers do a good job at catching lots of fish. They do perhaps too good a job, and aquaculture now produces as much tonnage as wild capture to reduce humanity’s footprint.

Calming the storm. We can’t stop storms, but we have gotten pretty good at prediction. We’re able to minimize the loss of life from disasters like the 1900 Galveston hurricane. Technology can warn of tornadoes and tsunamis.

Prophecies. Jesus predicted his death and his second coming, but pause for a moment to consider this quote from Shakespeare:

Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man;
But will they come when you do call for them?

Jesus made prophecies, and so can any man, but do they actually come true? His predictions of a second coming within the lifetimes of some witnesses didn’t come to pass. His prediction of his death is part of a story that we have little reason to see as history.

Healing miracles. Jesus did many of these (I recently explored the healing miracles here). For example, he healed lepers. We don’t heal lepers with magic but with antibiotics. Leprosy is no longer much of a problem, as is the case for smallpox, bubonic plague, and polio.

Jesus cast out demons. We don’t, because we know they don’t cause disease. We can’t cure all illnesses, but we do a better job now that we’re focused on the actual causes.

Jesus restored sight and hearing. Here again, we can’t prevent all such cases or cure all that occur, but medicine has made remarkable improvements in health.

Jesus raised the dead. We don’t use magic, but modern medicine has returned thousands from conditions that just a century ago would be considered “dead.”

What Jesus didn’t do. Jesus didn’t do any miracles against which we can parallel clean water and sanitation. Or civil engineering—roads, bridges, and buildings. Or communication—telephones and the internet. Or the energy industry or the chemical industry or the transportation industry.

What Jesus did was basically just party stunts. From helping God create the universe, he was reduced to doing magic for small audiences and today just appears in toast.

Some Christians will agree and say that Jesus didn’t come to improve the lot of people on earth but simply to spread his message.

Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. (John 10:37–8)

Okay, we can’t duplicate what Jesus did by magic. But everything that has been improved for humanity has been improved by humanity. Technology puts the claimed miracles of Jesus in perspective.

Religion may not be dying just yet,
but it’s sure getting feeble in this age of reason.
— comment at WWJTD blog

Photo credit: Wikimedia

About Bob Seidensticker
  • Niemand

    What, no love for the turning water into wine miracle? We can’t turn water into wine (at least, not without passing it through grapes), but we’ve turned water into a safe fluid to drink, rendering the change unnecessary for health and nothing but, as you’ve pointed out, a party trick.

    • http://www.seditiosus.blogspot.com Schaden Freud

      Someone who could turn water into wine would always be welcome at my parties.

      • Niemand

        Welcome, but not needed to prevent your guests from dying of a variety of unpleasant gastrointestinal illnesses.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Great point about the wine. I’ve read that, with ground water being pretty universally polluted in medieval times, people in much of Europe drank beer. It was safer, even for kids, so everyone walked around a bit buzzed all the time.

    • SparklingMoon

      the turning water into wine miracle?
      ————————————————————————–
      There is a description about Jesus in New Testament that is considered by some people that he had turned water into wine miraculously but in reality in the verses there is no description of it as it states in New Testamant:
       ”His mother said to the servants, “Whatever he says to you, do it.” 6 Now there were six water pots of stone set there after the Jews’ way of purifying, containing two or three metretes*apiece. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the water pots with water.” They filled them up to the brim. 8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the ruler of the feast.” So they took it. 9 When the ruler of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and didn’t know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast called the bridegroom, 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and when the guests have drunk freely, then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until now!” 11 This beginning of his signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him. ”(John 2:6-11)

      In these verse there is totally no description that Jesus had turned water into wine or had prepared any kind of wine . There is only a simple description of a miracle of Jesus that the ruler of the feast had felt the taste of water like a wine. As it is written , “Fill the water pots with water.” They filled them up to the brim . He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the ruler of the feast.” So they took this water to others and a drunk ruler of this feast ”tasted the water” and felt the taste of this water better than the wine that he had drunk before.In a thirst a simple water gives always a better taste than wine and the same seems to happen to this drunk ruler of the feast.

      Second, This jesus himself had come to maintain the law of Torah among the people of Israel then how is it possible that he himself had begun to serve wine to others. More than 75 times wine is forbidden in the Bible. Some of them:
      Deuteronomy 21:20 – A drunken son was stubborn and rebellious.29:5-6 – God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.32:33 – Intoxicating wine is like the poison of serpents, the cruel venom of asps.
      Psalm 75:8 – The Lord’s anger is pictured as mixed wine poured out and drunk by the wicked.
      Proverbs 4:17 – Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence. 20:1 – Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging. 23:19-20 – A wise person will not be among the drinkers of alcoholic beverages. 23:21 – Drunkenness causes poverty.23:29-30 – Drinking causes woe, sorrow, fighting, babbling, wounds without cause and red eyes. 23:31 – God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.23:32 – Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.
      23:33 – Alcohol causes the drinker to have strange and adulterous thoughts, produces willfulness, and prevents reformation. 23:34 – Alcohol makes the drinker unstable. 23:35 – Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning. Alcohol is habit forming. 31:4-5 – Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.
      Ecclesiastes 10:17 – A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.
      Isaiah 19:14 – Drunken men stagger in their vomit. 24:9 – Drinkers cannot escape the consequences when God judges.
      Ezekiel 44:21 – Again God instructed the priests not to drink wine.
      Daniel 5:1 – Belshazzar, ruler of Babylon; led his people in drinking.
      Hosea 4:11 – Intoxicating wine takes away intelligence.
      Amos 2:8 -Unrighteous acts of Israel included the drinking of wine which had been taken for the payment of fines.
      Micah 2:11 – Israelites are eager to follow false teachers who prophesy plenty of intoxicating drinks.
      Habakuk 2:5 – A man is betrayed by wine.

      • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

        Um, as someone from a Jewish background, I assure you none of us takes any of the OT things you’ve mentioned as a prohibition of wine or alcohol. The Passover Seder, which celebrates the Jews being led out of slavery in Egypt, involves four glasses of wine, two before much food is eaten. The Purim holiday, celebrating Esther’s triumph over Haman in Persia, actually demands we get drunk in celebration (and eat cookies! and dress up in costumes! it’s a fun holiday if you ignore the slaughter of tens of thousands of ‘enemy tribesmen’). Wine is also an important part of the Sabbath rituals, both at the beginning and at the end (Friday night kiddush, Saturday night havdalah).

        Now, none of this means drinking to excess is a good idea. It’s not. But there’s no prohibitions on it, and there are even some commandments to do it. Your interpretation of the Bible is not The One True Way to interpret it.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          M: There are cautions against excess in the NT (Eph. 5:18), but I don’t know of any in the OT.

        • John Kesler

          Proverbs 20:1
          Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,
          and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

          Proverbs 23:19-21; 29-35
          19 Hear, my child, and be wise,
          and direct your mind in the way.
          20 Do not be among winebibbers,
          or among gluttonous eaters of meat;
          21 for the drunkard and the glutton will come to poverty,
          and drowsiness will clothe them with rags.

          29 Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
          Who has strife? Who has complaining?
          Who has wounds without cause?
          Who has redness of eyes?
          30 Those who linger late over wine,
          those who keep trying mixed wines.
          31 Do not look at wine when it is red,
          when it sparkles in the cup
          and goes down smoothly.
          32 At the last it bites like a serpent,
          and stings like an adder.
          33 Your eyes will see strange things,
          and your mind utter perverse things.
          34 You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
          like one who lies on the top of a mast.
          35 ‘They struck me’, you will say, ‘but I was not hurt;
          they beat me, but I did not feel it.
          When shall I awake?
          I will seek another drink.’

  • Bob Jase

    Here’s the best part – there is more than enough evidence of what technology has done to say that its accomplishments have been proven. Biblical magic – just anecdotal, not even first-hand anecdotes.

    • SparklingMoon

      Biblical magic – just anecdotal, not even first-hand anecdotes.
      —————————————————————————————
      A prophet is never sent by God to show magic tricks that are above human physical capacities or that are against the prevailed laws of nature to show that he is physically a strong man.The real mission of a prophet is always to maintain people to high morals; the only source to get spirituality and to fulfil the purpose of human life. A prophet, physically,is a weak person like are other people(As we see in gospels that Jesus was caught and brought to cross by his opponent and he had no physical power to release himself and it was God Almighty who had created such circumstances to release him miraculously) The real power and miracle of a prophet is his strongest spirituality that he possessed among the people. This high spirituality is bestowed by God to him to fulfil his mission as it plays a fundamental role to clean the nature of his followers from all evils and to recognise the truth of God and brings them on the path of righteousness.

      In this world, the laws of nature always come into existence and later work according to the coded capacities of different objects of this universe . when a prophet appears among the people and claims to be sent by a powerful God, and calls them towards Him. At that time God’s those laws or attributes that are not prevailed or examined by people in this world also come into existence. The real purpose of the manifestations of these new laws is to show the truth of his prophet and to make them realize that a powerful God is standing behind this Prophet. This change, in the nature of any laws is called a miracle of a prophet but in reality have no relation directly to human capacities of a prophet because the original power working behind this miracle is not that of prophet but of that true one powerful God Who has control over each and every particles of this whole Universe. The purpose of these miracles of Prophets is only to bring the people back to their Creator and nothing more. A prophet never has motivates his followers to practice or imitate these miracles to improve their person except to practice high morals in the love of God.

      It is described in the Bible about Prophet Moses that he had thrown his rod before Pharaoh and magician and it seemed like a serpent to them . Actually the rod of Moses had not turned into a serpent but the eyes of others had seen it like a serpent . Moses was a prophet of God and Pharaoh had called magician to compete with Moses to prove that he was not a true prophet of God . God had bestowed Moses the same kind of power of magic that magician of his time usually used (magicians always do a trick on eyes as bring magically a veil before the sight of people) As it states in the Bible:
      As it states:
      And the magicians came to Pharaoh. They said, “Indeed for us is a reward if we are the predominant.”
      He said, “Yes, and, [moreover], you will be among those made near [to me].”
      He said, “Throw,” and when they threw, they bewitched the eyes of the people and struck terror into them, and they presented a great [feat of] magic.
      And We inspired to Moses, “Throw your staff,” and at once it devoured what they were falsifying.
      So the truth was established, and abolished was what they were doing.
      And Pharaoh and his people were overcome right there and became debased.
      And the magicians fell down in prostration (to God).
      They said, “We have believed in the Lord of the worlds,

      The last verses show that the real purpose of this miracle of Moses was to bring good nature magician towards their God Almighty and they had accepted the truth of God after seeing this miracle of Moses.

      There is also a description of a miracle of Ibrahim in religious books. Prophet Ibrahim was thrown into the fire by his opponent, and it was controlled by god
      “ They said, “Burn him and support your gods – if you are to act.”
      God said, “O fire, be coolness and safety upon Abraham.”
      And they intended for him harm, but We made them the greatest losers”. (7:113 – 121)

      Either there was a sudden rain or a strong wind that had put out this fire and Ibrahim had the opportunity to move from there to an other place to safe his physical life.

      The common law that works always in this world that a strong person overcomes a weak always but this law changes at the time of a Prophet .A Prophet who seems a weak person and is surrounded by strong and wealthy people who try their best to suppress his raised voice but they all step by step vanish and come to end and the claims of this Prophet begins to fulfill one by one in spite of his being a weak human being.

      • Bob Jase

        Moon, Moon, Moon, how much will it take to get you to understand that spouting your dogma is not the same as presenting evidence?

        • trj

          Doesn’t matter. He’s obviously enjoying himself. I think he keeps posting his prattle more to affirm himself than to convince any of us.

  • Greg G

    I once had a dog that could turn water into carpet stains. He was so good at it, he began to think his name was Jesus Christ.

    • http://criticallyskeptic-dckitty.blogspot.com Katherine Lorraine, Tortue du Désert avec un Coupe-Boulon

      When I was a kid, I thought my name was Jesus Christ and my brother’s name was Goddammit. It was always “Jesus Christ boy, get in the house.” and “Goddammit, clean your room.” It got to the point where one day my dad scolded me by saying “Goddammit” and I responded “But daad… I’m Jesus Christ!” – Bill Cosby (paraphrased)

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    Jesus walked on the water. We can’t walk on the water, but we can travel on the water in a vast array of boats, both large and small,

    If boats would have impressed the disciples as much as walking on water one wonders why they were amazed at Jesus walking on the water while they sat in a boat?

    Feeding of the 5000. We can’t feed people with magic, but we can still feed lots of people.

    And so could people in that day. It was doing it with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish that was the miracle. Although world hunger is not actually a supply problem, feeding so many with so little would no doubt make a big difference in our world.

    Cursing the fig tree.

    I’m sure it was possible to chop down trees in Jesus’ day too.

    Jesus cast out demons. We don’t, because we know they don’t cause disease.

    Really? I’m waiting for the study on demons which categorically removes any possibility that they have any role in causing disease.

    And in any case, you’re missing the meaning of the miracles. For example in the calming of the storm, the disciples respond with, “Who is this man that even the wind and the waves obey him?” Similarly after walking on the water, the disciples worship Jesus, saying “Truly you are the Son of God.”

    Of course you can attempt a divide a conquer approach to each of the individual events in the Bible and render them devoid of meaning by denying any connection to a larger overall meaning (either in the context of the book of the Bible, or the Bible in toto) but you can only reach such a conclusion by enforcing your own metanarrative that these works must be devoid of meaning, at which point one must ask where you get that metanarrative from?

    • Niemand

      It was doing it with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish that was the miracle.

      Hmm…I don’t think we’re quite there yet, but the day when we can feed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread, two fish, and a 3-d printer may be coming.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl:

      If boats would have impressed the disciples as much as walking on water one wonders why they were amazed at Jesus walking on the water while they sat in a boat?

      Sure, it’s cool. Watching Penn and Teller is also cool, but they’re just tricks. It won’t solve any of the world’s problems–you have to go to society, science, and technology for that.

      feeding so many with so little would no doubt make a big difference in our world.

      And yet Jesus’s feeding one crowd has done nothing to solve a single problem in our world. Technology, on the other hand, …

      I’m waiting for the study on demons which categorically removes any possibility that they have any role in causing disease.

      I’m not. We don’t have proof that demons don’t cause disease, but so what? It’ll never come, because science doesn’t provide proof for anything–not that demons don’t cause disease or that fairies cure it. We just follow the evidence, and that policy has served us pretty well.

      And in any case, you’re missing the meaning of the miracles.

      I think we’re in agreement on the meaning of the miracles. They are intended for salvation and (though it’s tempting to imagine otherwise) they’re not intended to do diddly squat to help people in the here and now. From that standpoint, they’re just stunts.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        They are intended for salvation and (though it’s tempting to imagine otherwise) they’re not intended to do diddly squat to help people in the here and now.

        Tell that to the people who were healed.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          I have a bottle of pills that cures all ills. I heal a man of blindness, a woman of cancer, and I regrow a missing limb. Once I’m celebrated as a great humanitarian, I leave town, taking my bottle of pills with me.

          Am I a healer or a showman? Why do you suppose doctors don’t work this way?

          And if you’re concerned about the health of the people who were healed, then you should be on board with my message. The science and technology behind clean water has saved millions of times more lives than Jesus did in his entire life.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          I have a bottle of pills that cures all ills. I heal a man of blindness, a woman of cancer, and I regrow a missing limb. Once I’m celebrated as a great humanitarian, I leave town, taking my bottle of pills with me.

          Am I a healer or a showman? Why do you suppose doctors don’t work this way?

          There are doctors who are itinerant, generally in places where medical attention is not easily available. The reason they are itinerant is because the work they do is not dependent on just giving people the right pills, but on their specific skills and expertise. They travel because the needs of the whole area they visit are so great. Jesus didn’t have a bottle of pills. He himself was the cure. In the same way, he travelled from town to town, not distributing pills, but healing people through his innate power.

          He did this to demonstrate what sort of a Messiah he would be. “The blind will see, the lame will walk, the good news will be preached to the poor.” The kingdom of God he was going to usher in was going to be one for those sort of people.

          I don’t deny that technology has improved the lot of many in our world. And I thank God for this. But I really think you’re forcing a point that isn’t there to be made in saying that therefore what Jesus did was just stunts.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          Jesus didn’t have a bottle of pills. He himself was the cure.

          Not much of a cure. He didn’t eliminate a single disease. He didn’t leave a simple book of everyday health tips that could’ve improved lives immeasurably after he left. He made a handful of people well (or so the story goes). Should I be impressed?

          I’m glad he taught that damn fig tree a lesson, but aside from that and the few people he healed, not much good came out of his healing ministry.

          healing people through his innate power.

          And then he’s on his way, with no permanent change done. Argue that he gave them a path to salvation if you want, but his public health improvements are negligible.

          I don’t deny that technology has improved the lot of many in our world. And I thank God for this.

          Why? God couldn’t get his butt out of his Barcalounger to improve your life. By contrast, millions of people have dedicated their lives to science, technology, or medicine to improve it. I think your thanks are misplaced.

          But I really think you’re forcing a point that isn’t there to be made in saying that therefore what Jesus did was just stunts.

          Then what word would you use? Eliminating smallpox from the world wasn’t a stunt. That saved hundreds of millions of lives to date, and it was only completed in 1979. Jesus did some magic tricks to show that he was the Messiah. His goal clearly wasn’t to improve public health.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          And then he’s on his way, with no permanent change done. Argue that he gave them a path to salvation if you want, but his public health improvements are negligible.

          I don’t know if you mean that. Are you saying that as soon as he left the people he healed relapsed? Based on what? Or just that they still died? In which case, everyone who doesn’t die of smallpox still dies, but from something else.

          Then what word would you use?

          Signs.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          I’m not saying that they relapsed. I’m saying that Jesus curing, say, 100 people is insignificant when he had the power to cure everyone in the world.

          But I don’t understand what we’re arguing about. We agree that he didn’t come to improve mankind’s lot.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          But I don’t understand what we’re arguing about. We agree that he didn’t come to improve mankind’s lot.

          He did offer his life as a cure for the moral evil that resides inside each one of us.

          I’m confused as to why you think Jesus should have set up a public health system. It’s like complaining that George Washington didn’t build the pyramids.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          Uh … George Washington couldn’t have built the pyramids. And who would care about more pyramids.

          In rather stark contrast, Jesus could have cured every single illness, permanently. And this is rather significant (unlike pyramids).

        • Kodie

          He did offer his life as a cure for the moral evil that resides inside each one of us.

          That’s the second most arrogant thing that anyone has ever said.

    • MNb

      “I’m waiting for the study on demons which categorically removes any possibility that they have any role in causing disease.”
      Are you also waiting for the study on demons which categorically removes any possibility that they have any role in causing you falling downward iso upward when jumping off a bridge?

  • MNb

    Let’s not forget the dark side either. Jesus and his father haven’t exactly succeeded in exterminating all the false religions during 2000 years (no matter which religions you consider false and which one true). Hitler and co did a pretty effective job exterminating judaism in Europe. He wouldn’t have succeeded without modern technology and divine love was pretty powerless against it.
    The whole joke called Revelations pales to the human capacity to end Earthly life in one big nuclear blast.
    Etcetera.
    God helps us? Not so much. Rather human reason helps us, if we want to avoid a human caused apocalypse.

    • Niemand

      I have to disagree with you a bit here. Hitler did a crappy job. The Brits and later the US-Americans, now they did a proper job of genocide. And with only 18th/19th century tools to work with. Only left a few residual tribes and individuals here and there, mostly powerless and without any cultural knowledge at all. People are, unfortunately, all too good at genocide.

  • Kodie

    I had a plausible thought about some of these so-called miracles once, and it was that some of these may have been hyperbole back in the day as well. We might say now about someone who is very (humanly) impressive, or very (humanly) self-important that he walks on water. Sure though it sounds like it’s making a comparison of a human feat to a published miracle account, but could be that was the case in the time Jesus supposedly lived too. Like how George Washington threw a coin over the Potomac River, in addition to all the stuff he actually did. I would think Jesus’s story would be at least as impressive if he’s good at whatever he was doing as George Washington was at his job without casting him also as a superhero for no reason. Yeah, they were trying to make him sound like he did have god-like powers, just like Michael Jordan could jump really high, but say one time, he jumped all the way up to the ceiling and got stuck, or that he could jump up in Chicago and land in Seattle. Obviously, he can jump higher than most people, but not with only his basketball sneakers defy gravity or hang until the earth passed two time zones. He still needs a ladder or an airplane like the rest of us. And so did Jesus.

    Another thought was that they were going to put something in a book and Jesus said he came to spread his message and they re-read it and said “needs more special effects; people are just going to think he’s a regular man unless we make him grow instant extra fishes, and kill plants with his death-beam eyes.” People are trying to sell an epic, and they had to put more car chases in it, basically, or no one would care, which, as it turns out, is the reason for the book selling so well.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      A tangential thought: did Jesus do any miracles that were jaw-droppingly novel? Water into wine had been done before, raising from the dead too. You’d think that if Jesus was the real deal and the “gods” of all the other religions were just made up, the miracles that Jesus would do to prove his divinity wouldn’t look like simply a reworking of other gods’ miracles but be completely, crazily, amazingly novel and inspiring. (And maybe leave some evidence so we could verify them.)

      • Kodie

        I often wonder why the Christians take these stories as having happened only because they’re not extremely impressive. The guy did a few things that are only slightly impossible! If they laid it on too thick, it would lead to the sorts of things no one would then believe. Everyone has witnessed something that might be filed under slightly impossible (moderately to very improbable series of circumstances) that they might call a real miracle, because nothing absolutely undeniably impossible could possibly happen, er, god doesn’t work that way.

  • John Kesler

    “Jesus cast out demons. We don’t, because we know they don’t cause disease.”

    Bcause we know the causes and treatments of these diseases–including mental illness–we don’t do as the ancients did and ascribe a relapse to an “unclean spirit” who decided to come back into the person with seven of his friends. The passages are Matthew 12:43-45/Luke 11:24-26. I quote Matthew’s version:

    43 ‘When the unclean spirit has gone out of a person, it wanders through waterless regions looking for a resting-place, but it finds none. 44Then it says, “I will return to my house from which I came.” When it comes, it finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45Then it goes and brings along seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and live there; and the last state of that person is worse than the first. So will it be also with this evil generation.’

    How horrible for a person suffering from a disease or mental illness. Not only did the person think that he/she had been demon-possessed, but if a relapse occurred, the sick might assume that he/she was at fault for allowing additional “unclean spirits” to come in. I can only imagine what sicknesses–mental or physical–that Mary Magdalene had for it to be said of her that seven demons had left her (Luke 8:2/Mark 16:9).

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    “Jesus cast out demons. We don’t, because we know they don’t cause disease.”

    Actually we don’t know anything of the sort. Yes, we understand that bacteria and viruses are the direct cause of some diseases. Other diseases have less discernable causes eg cancer, mental illness where we can identify contributing factors but often not exactly how the disease takes hold.

    In any case, no one has proved that demons have no power over viruses and bacteria, or are not one of the yet to be ascertained factors in diseases like cancer or mental illness.

    • Bob Seidensticker

      Karl: And in no cases will science ever prove anything. That’s not the way it rolls.

      Are you saying that there is evidence that demons cause disease? Or are you simply saying that demons as a causal agent haven’t been ruled out?

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        More the second case. My point is that even a fully mapped out physical explanation of how sickness and health works allows for the possibility that demons are the causal agents in bringing about the conditions that will cause illness, or prevent health.

        The fact that casting out of demons is not common today (in the West, it must be said that it is more common in other parts of the world) is not because it has been shown to be based on false premises.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          My point is that even a fully mapped out physical explanation of how sickness and health works allows for the possibility that demons are the causal agents in bringing about the conditions that will cause illness, or prevent health.

          Yes, demons are possible. However, they aren’t probable. (Neither are pixies or leprechauns. There simply is no evidence pointing in that direction.)

          The fact that casting out of demons is not common today (in the West, it must be said that it is more common in other parts of the world) is not because it has been shown to be based on false premises.

          Again, science will never prove anything–not that demons don’t exist or that they don’t cause disease or that exorcism doesn’t work–so let’s get beyond that. The question is: Where does the evidence point? And it sure as heck doesn’t point to demons as the cause of anything.

          We are discussing science and medicine here, right?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          We are discussing science and medicine here, right?

          Not me. I’m discussing demons, based on your statement following …

          Jesus cast out demons. We don’t, because we know they don’t cause disease. We can’t cure all illnesses, but we do a better job now that we’re focused on the actual causes.

          At the very least your statement is wrong because our current medical practices are not based on what we know about demons, but what we know about the physical world. Do demons cause disease? Science can’t tell us.

        • Kodie

          Do demons cause disease?

          Here you are again, trapped in the dilemma that since it was imagined, it is plausible. We are so intelligent that we can make up imaginary things and then treat them as plausible since they can never be reconciled with reality. Way back you had the same idea about god. God might plausibly exist only because we can ask “why are we here?” Why would we be able to ask “why am I here?” if god didn’t exist! That is the same with demons. It’s extremely self-centered, overly impressed by human intellect that you can’t get over that we are actually just animals. Like other animals do, we have specialization, namely the intelligence to progress technologically. Certainly a lot of innovation is caused by the ability to imagine outside of reality. Someone had the imagination of being able to fly and it was impossible since we don’t have wings. Gravity exists. How does a bird work? Use your imagination and come up with a solution that allows you to fly. It’s the same imagination that allows people to come up with gods and demons – it’s just that tends to go nowhere, so it ends up in a lot of fiction you might read. A fictional story in which a boy goes to a school to learn how to unleash his wizardry responsibly and then, because his name is on the cover, it turns out that he’s in position to fight the evil wizard with his schoolmates, also all made up by the author. I just think to be human is to be self-centered and think there’s some grand story someone is writing with our name on the cover, but it’s not actually true. In some sense, you are the author. Why religious people think someone else is the author and they have to ask him what to do next? It’s your imagination, write it yourself!

    • Niemand

      Cancer? Seriously? First off, cancer is not a disease, it’s a whole bunch of diseases. Second, we know what causes quite a lot of cancers. Viruses (HPV causes cervical and other genital cancers as well as head and neck cancer, HHV causes KS, hepatitis B and C cause hepatomas, etc), bacteria (H pylori and stomach cancer) , toxic exposures (aflotoxin and hepatoma, smoke and lung cancer), radiation (especially leukemia), some medications (ironically including chemotherapy), too much sunlight (skin cancers including melanoma), bad genes (almost all childhood cancers), etc. We also know what doesn’t cause cancer: cell phones don’t cause brain cancer, abortions don’t cause breast cancer (though they might prevent uterine cancer.)

      So, no, cancer’s not the mystery you seem to think. It’s not an officially solved problem-for example, no one seems to know what causes glioblastoma (a form of brain cancer.) But why that should imply demons is unclear to me.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        Niemand,
        thanks for the medical lesson. but it’s really missing my point which was that knowing everything there is to know about our bodies, health and sickness does not rule out demons as causal agents.

        It’s a bit like saying we know Lee Harvey Oswald didn’t kill JFK because we know that a bullet did.

        • Kodie

          You just don’t seem to understand how bacteria are alive and looking for a place to live and raise a family.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl: No one argues that science proves demons aren’t a cause of illness (it never proves things). But to argue that demons are involved with disease you must provide evidence.

          Sounds like your argument is simply “No one has proved they aren’t involved.” Yes, agreed. This is an unhelpful statement, because science hasn’t proved that anything isn’t involved.

    • MNb

      “no one has proved that demons have no power over viruses and bacteria”
      No one has proved either that demons have no power over gravity and electricity.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        Exactly. Why could they not use gravity and electricity?

        • Kodie

          Basically you think you’re so special that spirit worlds are fighting over your body.

        • MNb

          First: what does having power mean, Karl? First it means causing illness, now it means using gravity and electricity. I get confused.
          Second: your demons explain everything, thus they explain nothing. That’s a good reason to reject them, unless you reject science. That’s a bit peculiar, given your usage of internet. If you are consistent you should propose that your nice little thoughts are possibly transmitted to my brains by demons as well – or you doing a number 1 on your toilet for that matter. Beware of your demons next time, Karl!

    • Kodie

      What. Demons, Karl? What am I reading here? Maybe the bacteria are evil, so we will find out that it is really demons!

      Don’t complain next time you’re included in a group of people who are not to be taken seriously.

    • trj

      Allow me to suggest that before you undertake any study to determine whether demons cause disease you do a study to verify that demons exist in the first place.

      Good luck. Remember to keep us posted on your progress.

      • dorcheat

        Karl, if you really can find evidence for demons causing a disease, be sure to have it published in a peer reviewed medical journal as well.

    • ZenDruid

      Karl, I could summon a demon simply by busting you in the chops, but what would that prove?:

  • smrnda

    Do demons cause disease? Well, we have pretty accurate information on what causes different diseases, and so far, ‘demons’ isn’t on the list. We have specimens of many pathogens and vectors that we know are connected to disease, but so far, we don’t have a single specimen of a demon to study.

    With all the information we have, why sit around wondering if demons are the cause? It seems to violate the principle of parsimony – it’s a far-fetched idea that’s being presented as a possible cause of things we already have other information on.

    • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

      Granted, it is possible that each of the illnesses in the Biblical accounts of Jesus casting out demons could have a non-demonic explanation, but this is not an argument that Jesus did not cast out demons.

      And if demons are spiritual, not physical beings, then we cannot expect to be able to have a physical specimen to study.

      • Kodie

        That makes zero sense. If there is a cell in my body that can detect a demon and react to it, then we just need to build the right machine to discover this demon you’re talking about. It is like when they thought it was demons before but then they invented microscopes and found out there was a virus. What might be more impossible to prove is the evil motive of the virus, you know the ones that resist medicine? It must be their rebellious nature, so it’s obvious we’ve actually found something we’re suspicious might be demons. Do you think casting it out with a chant might improve chances of survival against medicine or surgery? And my question is, are they all demons? They are things we don’t like, but are they demons? They are not the same physically, but could they be related in collective intent? You get a flu and I get botulism and Bob gets MRSA! Sure that’s unpleasant and possibly fatal to each of us, but they aren’t the same thing. And why are they demons because we’re the victims? Do the dandelions think we’re demons? Kudzu vine could be the demon. I am really confused. I thought mosquitoes were demons. What kind of chant gets rid of demons so we don’t need medicine?

      • Bob Seidensticker

        Karl:

        What would it take to get you to say, “It’s very unlikely that demons cause disease”? Because it sure seems to me (and most of the other jaw-on-the-floor commenters who’ve responded to your demon thing) that evidence is available to you right now.

      • trj

        Everyone can see from a mile away where this is going. Your demons exist in the same way as the God of the gaps. When we point out that we have found natural explanations for most diseases so far, you’ll point to the ones which we don’t know the causes for and claim it could be demons. And whenever one of those diseases is then shown to have natural causes you’ll move on to the next. And of course you’ll always have the obvious backup plan: claiming that demons instigate disease by use of natural causes. “Yes, we know this disease is caused by bacteria, but who is to say demons don’t put those bacteria into the body?”

        The demons will forever be conveniently out of reach.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Everyone can see from a mile away where this is going. Your demons exist in the same way as the God of the gaps. When we point out that we have found natural explanations for most diseases so far, you’ll point to the ones which we don’t know the causes for and claim it could be demons.

          Nice try, but wrong. I am suggesting that even if all physical causes of disease and health are known then demons could still be agents with power to direct the physical causes of disease and health.

          And of course you’ll always have the obvious backup plan: claiming that demons instigate disease by use of natural causes. “Yes, we know this disease is caused by bacteria, but who is to say demons don’t put those bacteria into the body?”

          This is closer to my meaning, but it is not at all like a God of the gaps argument.

          The demons will forever be conveniently out of reach.

          If you limit the search to physical things. Of course, everyone but Hollywood knows demons are spiritual, not physical entities.

        • Bob Jase

          So demons are magically spiritual, not physical, yet our scientific physical medical treatments affect them – drive them off or kill them.

          Interesting, perhaps our scientific physical methods can drive god away or kill him.

        • Kodie

          This is very familiar. Karl can’t eliminate the possibility of demons because humans have the frequent habit of assuming everything that happens is about them. Why are we here, why did I have to get sick, why am I being punished?, why would a supposed god put me here on earth only to battle with demons through my internal organs and that I might die from?

          Karl cannot get any rest from the answer that we’re just animals. Our intelligence has to signal some ether-world where demons have some reason to make me sick. Why did demons make my cat sick? Why did demons push my favorite bowl off the shelf? Why did demons raise my rent next term? Why did demons hide my other shoe? Humans are animals who are really good at making everything look as if from a human perspective, magical. It couldn’t just happen, it couldn’t mean nothing, it’s a grand epic of the human species with each person’s view as themselves being more important to god, and demons now, we are part of an epic tale.

          So here is the hypothesis so far. Demons try to ruin our lives and keep us from god. Scientists know what may cause many diseases and follow clues to discover more causes of other diseases, and demons know more, and use those causes to weaken and kill people. God helps the scientists discover medicine and fight the demon-invoked medium of bacteria or virus or whatever they can find lying around that’s harmful to humans. It’s all about some grand battle on our beings between god and demons.

          AIDS didn’t exist and then it did. In less than half a century, people stopped calling it a necessary death sentence and it’s currently approaching curable. In my lifetime, AIDS has been called a disease caused by god to rid the world of gay men. So is AIDS now caused by demons because science is catching up to what HIV is and how to counteract its devastating effects? Demons used to kill and blind sexual “deviants” by outmoded STDs like gonorrhea (wow, like, I even spelled it right without spell check!) and they keep getting battled for every curve they throw by medicine invented by doctors but led to solutions by god (somehow).

          This sounds really convoluted. We’re just animals. Viruses are just animals (or something alive). We’re trying to occupy the same space, and as intelligent as we are, sometimes that lowly beast can take us down. They don’t even have brains Karl, how do they manage to out-intelligence a brilliant being as the human? Because you think demons might have something to do with placing viruses strategically? We get from A to B in a car, perhaps, and the virus rides in the blood or the air or semen or mucus. Sometimes it comes all the way from another country and rides an airplane. Sometimes it gets carried by pigeon and later a mosquito. For another example: fleas. Fleas aren’t the problem; tapeworm is the problem. Tapeworm does not affect a flea but a flea is a really good way to get inside a cat. We adapt, and so does a virus. We die, and sometimes so does the virus. We get more clever over generations and so do viruses. We solve problems the same way tapeworms do and viruses do. Human exceptionalism doesn’t work. Demons singling out humans to affect and attempt to confound god is an imaginary convolution.

          Humans are opportunistic and parasitic creatures (like so many of the small beings that make us sick) and we do a lot of damage to ourselves. Look at the battle next time someone wants to put up a shopping mall and put all the locals out of business. Some people say this is progress, we must grow, we must take! And some people protest this and say but it’s farmland and it’s bad for the small businesses that people moved to this town, they like the homey atmosphere and don’t like corporations horning in on their space. Humans getting too comfortable may be taken over by any disease even an affliction caused by other humans. They might work at a factory and the factory owner, being opportunistic as they may be, shuts down here and opens up somewhere cheaper. Maybe they are just rolling with the times and cuts back on manufacture. It’s not his fault, it’s the consumers; money talks and it tells someone there’s not as much call for this product as in the past. Make something else, cut back, or go out of business altogether. It’s not faaaaair.

          So for sure, humans tend to have an idealistic view of their own species. When you are the victim of the habits of your own species, you notice. When you are being sensible with your resources, including the resource of other people, you can’t keep the factory open out of the goodness of your heart and the well-being of your workers if nobody is buying your product. You could, but you would likely just say “that’s business” because of your perspective. You want to stay alive in business just like a virus. It’s a matter of perspective. You expect one thing from this exceptional creature you call a human, who is just an animal with money. When they turn against you, it is likely they are acting like a virus against your internal organs. It’s funny how comfortable we are (I don’t know what it’s called elsewhere) with the term “human resources” as a business department. That means over here we have the supply closet where we store pens and pads and staplers and hanging file folders, and in this closet we see a group of humans to choose as the appropriate tool for a particular task. This person is a pen, that person is a folder. That’s what it says on their resume. But I’m a HUMAN! I deserve more respect than a pen! All you are to me is a pen, sir. You cost this much per year and your job title is “pen”.

        • trj

          Nice try, but wrong. I am suggesting that even if all physical causes of disease and health are known then demons could still be agents with power to direct the physical causes of disease and health.

          So your argument is that demons may be behind specific cases of disease rather than specific kinds of diseases. This makes no difference for your core argument, except it makes it even easier for your demons to hide.

          it is not at all like a God of the gaps argument.

          It is exactly a God of the gaps argument. Your demons never show themselves and cannot be shown to exist. Whenever we can show a natural cause behind a case of disease you can retreat into the argument that it may actually be caused by invisible (sorry, “spiritual”) demons. How can we possibly verify this?

          I might as well claim that God is behind the disease (as is indeed the thinking of some Christians), or leprechauns, or invisible pestilence ponies. I can claim whatever rubbish I want as the underlying cause as long as it’s “spiritual”; nobody will ever be able to verify it.

        • Kodie

          And all the more reason to conclude that we don’t really matter to a universal magical spiritual functionally undetectable deity. Seriously, for all the religious belief that life is precious and that we have to matter and we have some unique purpose for being, and that we are uniquely qualified to judge ourselves as especially different from every other being on the planet, I don’t think we can conclude that spiritual realms using our bodies to battle one another points to these conclusion in part or in entirety. It sounds like we are just clay, if being used for something great and grand in the scheme of things, we don’t matter. It is bordering on paranoia actually. You’re sitting still thinking of some junk, like whether you should watch tv or read a book or go to the store to buy soda or just stay home and drink water. Suddenly, you are gripped with a feeling like there is something going on but you can’t place it. It got cool for a while and then it got warm. OMG they are turning the earth to throw you off what the weather is going to be today! Why is the sky gray? Is it because I got too greedy? I noticed the bed moved two inches and that demon can’t fool me into stubbing my toe! Not today, demons, not today!

          It has started to rain, certainly demons. Good thing god inspired someone to invent a portable shelter so I don’t have to stay inside! Not today, demons, not today! Don’t get too cocky, sir, there’s a demon driving the person driving that car and it’s headed right toward a puddle. Demons got me! I am hit by a splashing puddle! Things were going so well until demons manipulated everything that happens to me!

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          If you limit the search to physical things.

          No, we limit the search to things that have a physical impact. A supernatural being that never puts a toe into our reality might as well not exist.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Kodie:

          Why did demons make my cat sick?

          And why is the natural explanation for disease (cats and deer and fish and humans all get sick through natural means) sufficient to explain the facts? The recipe “To boil water, put a pot full of water on a hot stove, stir with a magic spoon, and wait” can be simplified by dropping the unnecessary bit about the magic spoon. Same with the demon element in the “how we get sick” story.

          If disease is caused in some measure by demons, it’s hard to imagine how we rid the world of smallpox, 100%. It killed 500,000,000 people in the 20th century, and now it kills zero.

          Why did demons hide my other shoe?

          Dang! Is that what does that?!

        • MNb

          “it’s hard to imagine how we rid the world of smallpox, 100%.”
          Because the remedy contains a spiritual element that scares off demons, you (and me) dumb skeptic! It’s what Kodie wrote – use your imagination and you can make up everything!

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          It is exactly a God of the gaps argument. Your demons never show themselves and cannot be shown to exist. Whenever we can show a natural cause behind a case of disease you can retreat into the argument that it may actually be caused by invisible (sorry, “spiritual”) demons. How can we possibly verify this?

          It is not a God of the gaps argument, because it is still valid even when all of the gaps have been filled.

          If you want to verify it, how about talking to some exorcists.

        • trj

          It is not a God of the gaps argument, because it is still valid even when all of the gaps have been filled.

          And that is indeed the point. We can keep filling the gaps, but your demons retreat to the gap we can’t ever fill: the realm of the invisible and undetectable. That is where they will “exist”. In the gap.

          If you want to verify it, how about talking to some exorcists.

          If they had a shred of evidence or credibility I might. But the quality of their evidence is on level with what I can get from talking to a shaman or a wiccan or an astrologer or a Scientologist.

          But feel free to present us with the most compelling evidence of demons you can find from real-life exorcists.

      • smrnda

        If they are ‘spiritual’ and not physical, then how to the interact with the physical world? I might as well say that I believe there’s an invisible miniature universe in the empty drawer in the kitchen, and that you can’t disprove that the Residents of Planet X in this tiny universe are what causes the water in my house to be warm of cold when I want it, and that the water heater is just an illusion.

        I could write massive treatises on this tiny universe and its many inhabitants, and it’s just as credible as demons. Just hasn’t been around so long or repeated so often.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          smrnda:

          Just hasn’t been around so long or repeated so often.

          … which makes the gulf that separates us from the original far smaller and the story far more plausible. All hail Whoville!

  • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

    So demons are magically spiritual, not physical

    Please tell me what “magically spiritual” means as opposed to ordinarily “spiritual”

    • Kodie

      Karl, it’s just redundant. There is no spirit realm. If you are saying that there is, and that we can’t detect it, please then tell us how undetectable spirit realm beings can manipulate physical beings, according to you the real cause of diseases is some intentional attack by a demon using bullets, or in this case a virus, how does the demon get his hands on the virus? If the virus can be physically moved by a demon to inflict a human, how would it be undetectable and spiritual as well? Why are you so grossly obsessed that everything that ever happens to you or any other human must be intentional from an intelligent yet undetectable being? If something is undetectable, it can’t have a physical effect on anything. If it does have a physical effect, then we just haven’t invented a scope so powerful as to definitively detect anything that is undeniably a demon. And then it wouldn’t be spiritual or magical. It would be material and physical.

      When will you let it go? We used to think it was demons and we looked under a microscope and it wasn’t demons. Now you say the demons are just using the bacteria to make us sick. How do you suppose the bacteria respond to the medicine and report back to the foiled demon? What happens to the demon then? When someone gets cured of a disease caused by a bacteria manipulated by a demon, why don’t they get sick with something else? Did the demon decide they’d been through enough, they got the warning? Or was the demon overpowered by the same medicine that killed the bacteria? HOW DO YOU THINK THIS WORKS?

      • MNb

        “HOW DO YOU THINK THIS WORKS?”
        In a spiritual way of course! Ha! Gatcha! Use your imagination and you can fly! If you are a dumb skeptic like me you will fail because you don’t use your imagination hard enough!

    • Bob Jase

      I keep hearing folks like you claiming that spirituality is somehow transcedent of reality, i.e.: magical. If you can tell me what ordinary spirituality tied to physical reality is, other than body chemistry triggering emotional reaction, please do so.

      • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

        I keep hearing folks like you claiming that spirituality is somehow transcedent of reality, i.e.: magical.

        The spiritual realm is transcendent of the physical realm, not of reality per se.

        I don’t know why you conflate magical with spiritual, but I suspect it’s a rhetorical device.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          I would certainly use “magical” in a pejorative sense, but that raises the question: how are magical and spiritual different?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          from dictionary.com …

          magic
          1. the art of producing illusions as entertainment by the use of sleight of hand, deceptive devices, etc.; legerdemain; conjuring: to pull a rabbit out of a hat by magic.
          2. the art of producing a desired effect or result through the use of incantation or various other techniques that presumably assure human control of supernatural agencies or the forces of nature. Compare contagious magic, imitative magic, sympathetic magic.
          3. the use of this art: Magic, it was believed, could drive illness from the body.
          4. the effects produced: the magic of recovery.
          5. power or influence exerted through this art: a wizard of great magic.

          So according to this magic could include the human control of supernatural agencies (and I would accept supernatural and spiritual as having enough overlap to be synonymous in most cases), but the main thing is that magic is the control over these and also the forces of nature.

          Interestingly, given the popular quotation about “sufficiently advanced technology being indistinguishable from magic”, according to the definitions here, you could make an argument that technology is magic.

          Spiritual (or supernatural) would be referring to the reality that transcends the physical world.

          Therefore, demons would be spiritual, but not magical. Attempts to control demons however, could be classified as magic.

        • Kodie

          It would still be magic because you are taking something that isn’t even real and giving it human (or physical) capacity and intention. If it were merely unseen, I would say that is only spiritual. You treat the demons and god and Jesus as if they were persons having some capacity to do things that are impossible.

          I think the problem with these definitions is that in normal usage, people make exceptions for their religious beliefs apart from magic. A wizard is of the occult or something, not legitimate prayer. Lots of things are cults or superstitions, but Christians don’t include themselves in that group. Then there are people who believe all those beliefs have some power, but since it’s not Christianity, such as yoga or astrology it gets filed with the capacity of summoning demonic power.

          That’s magic Karl. Deny it all you like, but you are excepting your beliefs from the definition because you think it’s any different.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          It would still be magic because you are taking something that isn’t even real and giving it human (or physical) capacity and intention.

          Kodie, you have an extraordinary ability to bypass all reason and argument and simply assert the conclusion you have previously arrived at in the most dogmatic manner. Tell me, how do you do it?!

          I think the problem with these definitions is that in normal usage, people make exceptions for their religious beliefs apart from magic.

          If you have a problem with the definitions, I suggest you take it up with dictionary.com. I’m sure they have a feedback process.

        • Kodie

          Kodie, you have an extraordinary ability to bypass all reason and argument and simply assert the conclusion you have previously arrived at in the most dogmatic manner. Tell me, how do you do it?!

          Tell me why you answer me as if this is the first post I’ve made in this thread or any thread on the subject, as if I’ve just completely out of the blue, made up some fact I like to believe without supporting my arguments? You ignored several other comments, but feel free to go about defending your right to believe in a spirit magic world no one has ever seen that can’t be seen but could be described as if by a crazy person but we’re to believe them without any evidence or proof?

          In short, why should anyone take you seriously? You don’t have an argument other than wishful thinking so you cherry-pick something you can discredit out of context from my other comments as well as some other people’s comments that I agree with, but which you, I’m guessing, decided were not easy enough to debate?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Kodie,
          I would not have written something like that if it was the first post you’d made. It is built up over several weeks of observing how your posts are impervious to reason and your thinking is dogmatically set in stone.

          A couple of words of advice. Just stating something u believe in “spirits don’t exist”, “God isn’t real”, “Jesus didn’t rise from the dead” as if it were a fact agreed by everyone in the conversation will not get anyone to either agree with you, or even want to respond to your posts. Instead it makes you come across as a crank who will only repeat their assertions no matter how convincing the evidence or arguments against their previous assertions are.

          Secondly berating people for not responding to your posts, or in the case of accusations against me, not responding to all of your posts, or every point in your posts is likewise not going to get you what you want. What will, is writing clearly thought out posts that stick to the point and treat your fellow posters with respect.

          By the way I’m not responding to the guy who threatened to “bust my chops in” either. My choices to respond or not are entirely my own.

          Peace,
          Karl

        • Kodie

          How does the spiritual affect the physical without being able to be detected? We should be able to detect something that moves another thing that we have the ability to (a) see motility of organism; (b) know organism is live; (c) know human cells and organs react poorly to organism; (d) overtake similar organisms regularly by creating medicine in labs and studying its effectiveness.

          You have not destroyed those arguments with your own dogmatic fantasy. You have not explained how you get this to work in your own mind, even, describe how you think these invisible anthropomorphic hands move to intentionally battle over our lives – interacting with us physically, but physically unreal and undetectable. You have not even come up with an answer for the many people, including myself, who really want to know.

          I have thought this through. You don’t respond to anyone, it doesn’t have to be me, who asked you. Retreat and sulk because someone berated you, but you start to talk about demons for real, and when pressed, you only hit the ones you think are easy, like how you prefer to call Jesus’s parlor tricks “signs” and you prefer people not call your spirit beliefs “magical”. You have not once defended this idea you have or the thought process behind it, nor any evidence.

          In the last thread where you got all butt-hurt because Bob lumped you in with the unreasonable, and you think you’re reasonable – you have to show it. You do have to demonstrate that you are any different.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          So, just to wrap up, your argument is that demons could be behind disease and that science hasn’t proved that they’re not. I agree. Is there anything more to it than this? Some evidence that this belief is well founded?

          Is there any other area of your life besides religion where you say that science’s inability to prove a claim wrong gives you license to believe that it’s right?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          So, just to wrap up, your argument is that demons could be behind disease and that science hasn’t proved that they’re not. I agree. Is there anything more to it than this? Some evidence that this belief is well founded?

          I think this is a fair summary. I don’t need to show that such a belief is well-founded, as the point I was making is that your statement that “we know [demons] don’t cause disease” is not true. You don’t know, you make an inference based on the evidence and assumptions you bring to the table.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          the point I was making is that your statement that “we know [demons] don’t cause disease” is not true.

          We have the same evidence for demons as we have for the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn or pixies or the Purple People from Pluto. We “know” in the same way that we can say that we know anything–never 100%, but more than enough to act on.

          Since you opened this can of worms, you want to show us why your belief that demons do cause disease is well founded?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          We have the same evidence for demons as we have for the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn or pixies or the Purple People from Pluto. We “know” in the same way that we can say that we know anything–never 100%, but more than enough to act on.

          There are numerous accounts of both demonic activity and exorcisms (whether you believe them or not is another story). To discount these reports you need to more than simply assert that “we know” they aren’t true.

          All of your other examples are things that we know are invented and are not based on any evidence at all.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          You raise a good point–I should’ve used examples that have been seriously claimed as real. Unicorns, giants, fairies. You know about these as well as I do.

          Your point that we can’t know any scientific claim for certain is valid, but we were all on the same page before you mentioned it, so that doesn’t open any new doors.

          You’re not entitled to your own facts. If claims for unicorns are not supported, why pretend that claims for demon-caused disease is since you have no more evidence for it?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Unicorns exist, we tend to call them rhinos these days. Giants exist, some even wrestled for the WWF. Fairies I’m not so sure of, but the traditional belief in fairies had them depicted as nothing like Tinkerbell. I would put them in the same box as extra-terrestrial life: possible, but I don’t currently have access to anything that could help me investigate what I would need to have a firm belief one way or the other.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          Uh, no–unicorns, fairies, and giants (I’m thinking of the “Jack in the Beanstalk” kind) don’t exist.

          I don’t currently have access to anything that could help me investigate what I would need to have a firm belief one way or the other.

          Seriously? You’re telling me that you’re on the fence about each of these things?

          So a guy comes up to you and says, “Karl! I just saw a unicorn! It ran off, but I’m sure it was one!” You figure that this is evidence in favor and you have no direct evidence against, so you believe now? It’s hard to imagine you stumbling through life with a gullible attitude like this.

          In fact, I bet you don’t. I bet you’re just as skeptical as I am about remarkable claims–government leaders are lizard people, there’s a hole into the hollow center of the earth at the north pole, and so on.

          So why the accepting attitude about demons? You have no problem with different standards for your religious beliefs than for others?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Seriously? You’re telling me that you’re on the fence about each of these things?

          No. I’m on the fence about fairies and extra-terrestrial life. And the reason is that I don’t currently have any way to find out information which would help me be better placed to believe or disbelieve.

          Do you protest as much to those who profess the possibility of extra-terrestrial life?

          Regarding demons, the clinching evidence I have is the life of Jesus as recorded in the gospels.

          In fact, I bet you don’t. I bet you’re just as skeptical as I am about remarkable claims–government leaders are lizard people, there’s a hole into the hollow center of the earth at the north pole, and so on.

          You and I both know you’re making these things up. Things that are honestly believed and have a history and tradition will get my time more. And you might (or might not, it’s been a while since we discussed it) remember I don’t discount the possibility of genuine miraculous events occurring in other religious traditions.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          I’m on the fence about fairies

          Why is that? Because there’s roughly equal reasons to believe in them as not believe? I’d be curious what these two bodies of evidence look like, because the latter is far bigger IMO.

          Do you protest as much to those who profess the possibility of extra-terrestrial life?

          (1) Extraterrestrial life is hardly a remarkable supposition. We know about planets, and we know about life. Maybe there’s more than one–not a big deal. No natural laws to overturn.

          (2) If someone is so into the idea that it changes their life (maybe they go through life with tinfoil hats to keep the aliens out of their brains), then yes, I would protest. This would not be a benign belief.

          Regarding demons, the clinching evidence I have is the life of Jesus as recorded in the gospels.

          And that’s it? Since you discard claims in every other ancient book that conflict with science; do you think your belief in this one exception is well grounded with evidence? Or do you just believe on faith, without worrying about evidence?

          You and I both know you’re making these things up.

          Not really. There are people who really believe (or recently believed) this. The hollow earth thing was big in Nazi Germany. The idea of reptilians in government exists in the US today.

          Things that are honestly believed and have a history and tradition will get my time more.

          Lots of things are honestly believed that you don’t give a second glance–Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

          I don’t discount the possibility of genuine miraculous events occurring in other religious traditions.

          But is it because those traditions are right?

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Why is that? Because there’s roughly equal reasons to believe in them as not believe? I’d be curious what these two bodies of evidence look like, because the latter is far bigger IMO.

          Because the claims that there is a world of faerie that at some points in time and space intersect with our physical world is not one that I am in the position to disprove, nor do I know of anyone who has made any serious attempts to do so.

          (1) Extraterrestrial life is hardly a remarkable supposition. We know about planets, and we know about life. Maybe there’s more than one–not a big deal. No natural laws to overturn.

          I am in a similar position re fairies. We know about this “world”. Maybe there is another world of faerie. It would not contradict any natural laws of our universe, as it is simply the existence of a different one that at some points touches our universe.

          Not really. There are people who really believe (or recently believed) this. The hollow earth thing was big in Nazi Germany. The idea of reptilians in government exists in the US today.

          I did not know that. But I think we can agree that these are different sorts of ideas to the idea of the existence of a faerie realm, or a spiritual realm (with demons) which exists alongside and at some points makes contact with our physical world.

          Lots of things are honestly believed that you don’t give a second glance–Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

          I think Buddhism, Hinduism and other major faiths have a lot of truth in them. I disbelieve their mythos (ie what they say the world is like, but then again I disbelieve the atheist mythos too :-)), but that is because I believe the Christian mythos makes the best sense of the world as I see it.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          the claims that there is a world of faerie that at some points in time and space intersect with our physical world is not one that I am in the position to disprove, nor do I know of anyone who has made any serious attempts to do so.

          So what? You believe things until they’re disproved?

          We know about this “world”. Maybe there is another world of faerie. It would not contradict any natural laws of our universe, as it is simply the existence of a different one that at some points touches our universe.

          Uh … the hypothesis that there is life on some of the billions of planets that there seem to be isn’t much of a stretch. You seem to be talking about a much bolder claim.

          these are different sorts of ideas to the idea of the existence of a faerie realm, or a spiritual realm (with demons) which exists alongside and at some points makes contact with our physical world.

          I agree. The existence of a completely new realm has a far bigger burden of evidence because it is so dramatically different.

          I believe the Christian mythos makes the best sense of the world as I see it.

          Do all paths lead to God? Do the Hindus and Buddhists risk their soul by not converting to Christianity?

        • Kodie

          But I think we can agree that these are different sorts of ideas to the idea of the existence of a faerie realm, or a spiritual realm (with demons) which exists alongside and at some points makes contact with our physical world.

          You still have not constructed a process by which this would work and also go undetected. If it is in contact with our physical world, it would be something we could physically detect somehow with some instrument. We can’t see viruses with our eyes – we have invented instruments to magnify them so we can see. If something can be detected by instruments, it is not in a spirit realm. You are just also making stuff up. You give more credit to legends with a long history than just something I could make up, but that does not mean yours is any less made up.

          Please explain how something in the spirit realm can never be detected but can physically move physical things anyway. How can a demon manipulate a bacteria, for example? How can we not figure out how to catch the demon in the act without merely guessing that it was demons? You know it’s not invisible pandas because? I made that up. no u.

          Ok, what is your “reasonable” argument then. You never have answered the basic question.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          So what? You believe things until they’re disproved?

          No, I suspend judgment.

          I agree. The existence of a completely new realm has a far bigger burden of evidence because it is so dramatically different.

          Only for a committed materialist. And on what basis does one hold materialism?

          Do all paths lead to God? Do the Hindus and Buddhists risk their soul by not converting to Christianity?

          All paths do not believe to God. Salvation is found in Christ alone. This does not mean the historical claims, or the accounts of miracles in other religions are necessarily false. Since most other religions don’t depend on these things in the way that Christianity does, it creates no great conflict. I can believe that Buddha did escape his royal life and meditate under a tree until he could make sense of suffering. I do not need to believe that the solution he came to was correct.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          No, I suspend judgment.

          Since there are arguments on both sides, why not suspend judgment on the Jesus claims as well?

          Only for a committed materialist.

          You posit a new realm for fairies without any evidence, and anyone who disagrees is closed minded?

          How is your position different from someone who says, “You haven’t proved my position false; therefore, I’m entitled to hold it”?

          Salvation is found in Christ alone.

          And yet “Buddhism, Hinduism and other major faiths have a lot of truth in them.” Sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Why not just be like the right-wing extremists and reject all other religions as false? Admittedly, this does make your views nicer, but I’m trying to find a coherent logic behind them.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Since there are arguments on both sides, why not suspend judgment on the Jesus claims as well?

          I’m not suspending judgment because there are claims on both sides. I’m suspending judgment because I don’t have access to evidence to help me decid one way or the other.

          How is your position different from someone who says, “You haven’t proved my position false; therefore, I’m entitled to hold it”?

          Surely you don’t mean “You haven’t proved materialism false; therefore I’m entitled to hold it?” Yet, on what other basis do you hold materialism?

          Why not just be like the right-wing extremists and reject all other religions as false? Admittedly, this does make your views nicer, but I’m trying to find a coherent logic behind them.

          There is simply no need to believe that everything that comes out of these religions is false. Of course, at certain points every religion that teach that salvation is found in Christ alone is going to wrong on at least that point, and the basis of salvation (and what salvation means) are pretty fundamental points for any religion. So at a fundamental level I will disagree with them. But that does not mean they can’t be right about some things.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          Surely you don’t mean “You haven’t proved materialism false; therefore I’m entitled to hold it?” Yet, on what other basis do you hold materialism?

          We could quibble about what “materialism” means, but perhaps we can ignore that. I think that science is the best avenue for finding out about reality because of the awe-inspiring tsunami of information that it’s provided us that’s held up to critique.

          In other words, I follow the evidence. I hold no position simply because no one has proven it false; I follow the evidence.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Do you hold to methodological naturalism in science?

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Define the term.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          From wikipedia: It is strictly the idea that all scientific endeavors—all hypotheses and events—are to be explained and tested by reference to natural causes and events.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          I guess.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          If you do hold to methodological naturalism then you are holding an a priori assumption which prevents any scientific endeavour from finding out anything beyond the natural world.

          Which means that it is a poor tool for saying anything about the supernatural.

          Kind of like saying that nothing invisible exists because if it did, then we could see it.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          Show me something better and I’ll incorporate that as well.

          And this does nothing to address my point that I’m following the evidence. By contrast, you hold a view simply because no one has been able to prove it wrong, which is backwards from the approach (science) that we know has delivered on its promise to provide understanding of reality.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          And this does nothing to address my point that I’m following the evidence.

          What it does show is that you cannot limit the evidence to science, which renders your earlier point …

          I think that science is the best avenue for finding out about reality because of the awe-inspiring tsunami of information that it’s provided us that’s held up to critique.

          rather unsatisfactory as it can only tell us about the natural world.

          To then come to the conclusion that the natural world is all there is, is as I illustrated earlier, like saying that nothing invisible exists, because if it did, then we could see it.

          By contrast, you hold a view simply because no one has been able to prove it wrong, which is backwards from the approach (science) that we know has delivered on its promise to provide understanding of reality.

          No. I suspend judgment when I don’t have what I need to make a decision. Is that backwards from science.

          You suspend judgment on extra-terrestrial life ( I presume) for similar reasons that I do – it’s possible but there’s no way we could currently know one way or the other.

          The only difference is that you say if something is supernatural it should not be believed, and I do not. And as far as I can tell, your reasons for doing so are based on an assumption of how you acquire understanding of reality that precludes the possibility of coming to any conclusion that implies the supernatural.

          I suspect we are probably at an impasse here where we will not make much more progress on this topic. So I think we might want to give this a rest here until you want to start a thread on materialism or the existence of the supernatural. This might also give a chance to reply to each other without scrolling several pages up to find the reply button :-)

        • Kodie

          @Karl,

          I look forward to the answers you still won’t bother to give for direct questions about how your spiritual world is supposed to interact with the physical world while still being undetected by instruments in a completely new topic that is exactly about the same thing as this one.

        • Bob Seidensticker

          Karl:

          What it does show is that you cannot limit the evidence to science

          Show me a good reason to accept something outside of science, and I’m there.

          it can only tell us about the natural world.

          Bingo! That’s exactly what you’re saying. You’re not hypothesizing some spiritual world in another untouchable dimension; you’re talking about spirits affecting our world. That’s a scientific claim; let’s use science to test it.

          To then come to the conclusion that the natural world is all there is

          I don’t know that for sure, but that is where the evidence points.

          I suspend judgment when I don’t have what I need to make a decision. Is that backwards from science.

          Absence of evidence can be evidence of absence. When there is no evidence for demon-caused disease, you’re foolish to hold that hypothesis.

          You suspend judgment on extra-terrestrial life ( I presume) for similar reasons that I do

          We know about planets and we know about life. That there is another confluence of the two, like we see on earth, is possible. No new laws of science need to be invented or broken for this to be the case. Not that big a deal. We have evidence.

          But supernatural beings affecting disease here? Whoa–that’s a big claim. You must have evidence to hold this, and you have none (none, at least, that you’ve shared with us).

          The only difference is that you say if something is supernatural it should not be believed, and I do not.

          You and I could hang out for half an hour and come up with a hundred crazy claims for which there is zero evidence. Would we be entitled to hold any of them? Should we withhold judgment and say that they could be true? Yes, they could, but what idiot would live his life as if they were??

          precludes the possibility of coming to any conclusion that implies the supernatural.

          I’m open to the supernatural. I just gotta have the evidence. (Wait–I’ve said that before, haven’t I?)

          This might also give a chance to reply to each other without scrolling several pages up to find the reply button :-)

          Agreed–that is annoying.

        • Bob Jase

          Kindly supply scientific, not anecdotal, evidence that spiritually is more than emotional reactions due to body chemistry or how spiritual beings can be completely separate from the physical world and still be considered part of reality.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          Why scientific?

        • Kodie

          Karl, you’ve been asked more than a couple times how the spiritual affects the physical without the physical detecting the spiritual. If something is real, then it’s real, and if it’s not, it’s not. Do you understand? If a bacteria can be moved by a spirit, then that is in the physical realm, i.e. scientifically detectable.

          You seem to have avoided anyone who has pointed that out to you, and then you come up with “why scientific?” If it crosses over, it can be measured. If it can’t be measured, it’s impossible to cross from a spirit realm to a material one. For example, wind exists. Gravity exists. You can’t see them, but they have measurable effects. Then we know they exist and measure them. You are giving anthropomorphic properties that affect you or me with the purpose of holding a battle over you or me. Do you not understand how ridiculous that is and why it’s ridiculous to say that we are just talking about somebody who we’re guessing has an agenda but can never be caught?

          So all you have is paranoia. They’re after you. You don’t have anything to show for that disturbing ideation, and you don’t think you should have to. But you think we should take you seriously anyway. You think you’re the “reasonable” one.

        • http://www.hongkongudy.com Karl Udy

          OK, if I am to use scientific evidence, must it assume methodological naturalism? If so, I then it is making a priori assumptions which will not allow it to attribute any effects to spiritual causes.

          If not, then what sort of scientific evidence am I supposed to use?

        • Kodie

          If you’re to convince us spirits have an effect on the physical world, yeah. That’s what that means. You continue to speculate about a world unseen, where your hypothesis is not by far the only possibility*, and you defend the reasoning why it can’t be scientifically proven but you can still think a particular thing is still true, and you will not be taken seriously. That’s what that means.

          *i.e. How do you eliminate all the other infinite possibilities that don’t line up with Jesus or demons or whatever it is? How do you know it’s not invisible pandas? How do you know the wind is not an animal? How do you eliminate the possibility of super-intelligent bacteria with evil intentions? All we can see under the microscope is what they’re made of and how they react, but we don’t know what they’re really thinking when they attack our organs. You seem to think only humans have that kind of intelligence, and spooky spirits, but not animals. But how do you know what they’re thinking? You have built a secret world on speculation but you refuse the possibility that we’re just animals, because you feel like believing something else that you can’t prove, a specific something else, not a general “anything’s possible at all”. How do you eliminate every possibility, including the one where there’s nothing there behind it all, we’re just animals?

  • http://gamesgirlsgods.blogspot.com/ M

    You know, we could just drop the “sometimes absence of evidence really is evidence of absence” bomb on Karl and see if his head explodes …

    Sometimes, we don’t see something because it’s not there. My inability to see my Tesla roadster is because I don’t actually have a Tesla, however much I might want one. Our inability to find any speck of evidence for demons is almost certainly (p>0.000000001) because they don’t actually exist, no matter how much you might want them to. They’re also logically impossible beings (purely spiritual yet can interact with the physical world yet are undetectable by all physical means) which is yet another reason to reject the demon hypothesis.

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