A God-Created World Would Look Like a ’60s Family Sitcom

“You’re so smart?” the Christian apologist says. “You think you can read God’s mind? Then tell us what life on earth should look like if God created it.”

I’m glad you asked. If an omnipotent and all-loving god created human life here on earth as a way to develop us into better people who would deserve eternity in heaven, our world would look like “Leave It to Beaver.”

Leave It to Beaver” was a popular American sitcom that originally aired 1957–1963. It showed the adventures of Beaver Cleaver (to the right in the photo above, with his TV parents and older brother Wally).

Who graduates from God’s classroom?

First, let’s view life from the Christian perspective. Jesus makes clear that few will make it to heaven.

Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13–14)

Making it through that small gate is our purpose in life. I’ve heard Christians give different metaphors for our world. God made a challenging life on earth as a test to see which people are made of the right stuff. Or it’s a proving ground where the good souls get a chance to prove their worth. Or a crucible where the dross burns away to improve our character and prepare us for heaven.

But let’s imagine life as a classroom. God apparently is so poor a teacher that he only graduates a few of his students.

If you were the president of a college, you might think that if 80% of the freshmen graduate, that’s a decent fraction. It’s too bad about the rest, but it’s not possible to make that fraction zero. But God could. God would know exactly what the problems were and how to fix them. Is it a lack of motivation? A lack of funds? Classes not relevant or interesting enough? With God in control, he could create colleges with a 100% graduation rate.

God isn’t president of an ordinary college; he’s president of the Ultimate College—life. What fraction of people graduate from God’s college into heaven? Not even half.

Is this the best of all possible worlds?

Eighteenth-century German polymath Gottfried Leibniz argued that this must be the best of all possible worlds. How could God allow all the bad that we see in the world—famine, plague, violence, and so on? Leibniz simply assumed that God would give us the best of all possible worlds, that God couldn’t improve one part without making the overall worse. QED.

God can’t make things better than what we have now? Let me suggest some ideas.

Tips for God

Here’s how an omnipotent and all-loving God could better organize life. I propose a world with a 100% graduation rate where everyone gets into heaven. It would be a world with gentle correction for errors, like in “Leave It to Beaver.”

To see what that world would look like, here are some of the plot summaries from that sitcom:

  • Beaver and Wally are in charge of the neighbor’s cat, but then a dog chases it away (“Cat Out of the Bag”).
  • Beaver discovers his old teddy bear and reluctantly discards him after his father and brother tell him he’s too old for dolls. Beaver changes his mind, but he’s too late to save it before the garbage truck comes. He tries to get it back (“Beaver’s Old Friend”).
  • Beaver is scheduled to receive an award at school and argues with his parents about whether he needs to wear a jacket and tie (“Beaver’s Football Award”).
  • Beaver must write a book report on The Three Musketeers and decides to watch the movie on TV instead of reading the book (“The Book Report”).
  • Beaver and a friend are in charge of the class cookie fund, but another student steals three dollars (“The Cookie Fund”).
  • Beaver rips his suit pants and lies about it. He’s scolded for the lie and then tells the truth when he rips the pants of his other suit, but his parents won’t believe him (“Beaver’s Bad Day”).

There are 234 episodes. In each, the stakes are low, and there is learning at the end. Beaver gets a little wiser as he’s gently nudged toward adulthood. Not everyone reaches their goals in each episode, but nothing particularly bad happens. Sure, embarrassment during a date or punishment after a mistake is traumatic, but it’s not cancer. Things are black and white, just like the show itself. It’s life with training wheels.

Contrast Beaver’s life with plausible plots from our reality:

  • Little Suzie gets smallpox and then dies (“Suzie’s Bad Day”).
  • Frank is at work when he feels an earthquake. He makes his way home, but he’s too late—a tsunami has swept away his entire town, including his family (“Frank’s Bad Day”).
  • Jamey is tormented by homophobic bullying in school and online. He hangs himself at age 14 (“Jamey’s Bad Day”).

The Christian demands, “Aren’t you the arrogant one? You think you can tell God how to arrange the universe?” But of course that’s not the question. We don’t take God as a presupposition and then rearrange the facts to support it. Instead, we just follow the facts. And this world certainly looks like a world without a god.

The best thing about believing in a crazy, illogical,
manmade, totally fictional afterlife
is that you will never find out you were wrong.
— Ricky Gervais

Photo credit: Wikipedia

About Bob Seidensticker
  • RichardSRussell

    I have yet to meet anyone — Christian, Jew, atheist; old, young; rich, poor; capitalist, socialist; male, female; black, white, brown; whatever — who would be so heartless and callous as to abandon a drowning child when the kid was within easy range of a convenient life-saving ring that could be thrown to her or him.

    God, of course, abandons such children to their fate thousands of times a day. And those are the lucky ones, who get to die quickly, not the teenage girls who get locked in some rapist’s cellar for a decade.

    My conclusion: Pretty much every human being on Earth is better qualified for the position of God than the asshole who’s currently holding the job. Any of us could make a better world than the Great Arch-Fiend.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker
      • Norm Donnan

        This is amazing,Richard Dawkins wearing a dress with a dogs butt as his head,there really is a God with a sense of humor.He should use this as his new FB profile picture.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I didn’t know that Dawkins had a beard.

        • Norm Donnan

          Its an old pic, from the 60s Ide say looking at the caftan.

      • Carol

        Hmmm, reminds me of the joke:
        Question: “What does an agnostic dyslexic insomniac do?”
        Answer: “Lie awake nights and wonder if there is a dog.”

  • RobbyU

    Most feminists or critical race theorists despise the patriarchal, predominately white Leave it to Beaver world. They’d be disgusted by your recommendation here.

    In other words, the world you’re dreaming up probably has a larger problem of evil than the one you’re rejecting. I think I’ll stick with the world God arranged, not your oppressive world that privileges white males (the leading demographic of American atheism).

    • AndrewH

      The world God arranged that has all of the problems you mentioned, plus malaria and crib death?

      • kraut2

        No, it also has bilharzia, dengue fever, HIV, Creutzfeldt–Jakob disease, various tape worms that humans play host to, including the cysts of taenie solium, for a list read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parasites_of_humans, that list does not even include bacteria and viruses.
        If this world had been created by a god, he must have loved parasites more than intelligent live.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Ouch. God has a seriously flawed sense of humor. A whoopee cushion is funny. Dengue or guinea worm, not so much.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      Can my point have been that difficult to decipher? Or perhaps you’re
      determined to misunderstand.

    • wombat

      A ‘Leave It To Beaver’ world has a *larger* problem of evil than this world? Which planet are you calling in from? The problems of this world include pain, sickness, poverty, war, and death, as well as patriarchy and oppression. Living in a world where there’s only patriarchy/oppression to fight would be a hell of an improvement.

      • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

        Agreed. Keep in mind as well that racism and patriarchy are not part of that world. Part of 1950s America, absolutely. But those topics never enter into the stories that we see on “Leave it to Beaver.” Getting punished for lying about ripping your pants is about as harsh as it gets.

        • wombat

          This feminist would be pretty happy with a world where the greatest problems involve torn pants.

        • RobbyU

          It appears we have a lot of white males present in this discussion.

        • Kodie

          No, you clearly missed the point.

        • wombat

          Are you trying to insinuate that my genitalia is affecting my ability to assess feminist concerns? Because that’s not a particularly strong point to be making.

        • Billy

          It appears we have at least one troll present in this discussion.

    • Pattrsn

      Of course because when you’re a theist what is and isn’t evil is arbitrarily decided by your god. This allows you to ignore the fact that your god is the main source of suffering in the universe.

    • KeithCollyer

      err, you seem to have totally missed the point. the author isn’t saying this is the world he wants, but the world as it would be if god existed.

    • Yep

      Yeah, God certainly never gave any privileges to males. Nothing in the Bble about that.

  • Greg G.

    This reminds me of Rick Nelson’s Garden Party after he grew up on Ozzie and Harriet .

  • busterggi

    In the best possible god-made world there would be a laugh track so those of us withquestionable senses of humor would know when to laugh without looking like idiots.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      I get a vague sense of God’s laugh track when I see Jesus in a cheese sandwich. Or a dog’s butt.

  • Norm Donnan

    I guess the main problem with your classroom scenario is that eternal life is a gift from God, you carnt earn it,be smart enough,good enough,rich enough,pretty or strong enough.There are no tests or exams to pass,no criteria of race or religion. Dont have to be a certain age to qualify,can be down syndrome or have a doctorate, in fact theres nothing you can do or be to impress God.If there were many doors to get to God,Satan would make many more, so in His infinite wisdom He just kept it simple by making one door.Now I know there are rules about proselytizing here so out of respect for Bob,I wont tell you who that door represents.but He’s standing at the door of your heart knocking,wont you let Him in???The school pass rate is a bit low,we want even you students who tell the head master how to run the show. Knock knock…..knock knock…..hello

    • Pattrsn

      How do you account for the abysmal graduation rate? All goD would have had to do is tweak human nature slightly and we’d all get to heaven. Why is it that in the vast majority of cases the religion you’re born with is the one you die with?

      • wombat

        He doesn’t even need to tweak human nature, he could just tweak his own rules. “All my creations are worthy of eternal life because I made them” would be a reasonable stance to make, if he was so loving.

        • Norm Donnan

          Your right,and because He is so loving He made it so easy, in fact it’s a free gift,all you have to do is accept it.We as students want to do everything on our terms using our wisdom and understanding…Listen to the teacher.

        • phantomreader42

          If it comes with conditions, as you have admitted it does, then it is not a free gift. Words mean things, Norm, you can’t just ignore the meaning of the words you’re using when they’re inconvenient. Are you incapable of comprehending basic English? Or are you trying to present your qualifications as High Priest of Humpty-Dumpty?

        • Norm Donnan

          Oh but masked man you are so right but in such a wrong way. What will change is the condition of your heart, mind and understanding,which at this point in time you are incapable of comprehending.But there is hope.

        • Pattrsn

          Not looking good Norm when you’re reduced to preaching

        • phantomreader42

          It’s not really a reduction, he never had anything to offer but preaching to begin with. All he can do is babble nonsense.

        • Norm Donnan

          Ouchlook beyond yonder wall,a babbling man in a mask reading a comic

        • phantomreader42

          And Judas went out and hanged himself.
          Go thou, and do likewise.
          What thou doest, do quickly.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          And who’s going to argue with the Good Book?

        • Norm Donnan

          Genisis 1 28 go forth and multiply masked man,lol

        • Norm Donnan

          Ask a question ,get an answer,and thats preaching eh?

        • phantomreader42

          You didn’t give an answer, you just babbled nonsense, then lied about doing so. Isn’t that imaginary god of yours supposed to have some sort of problem with bearing false witness?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Accept the free gift? If “accepting” means that I have to believe something unbelievable, I’m afraid that my God-given brain won’t allow me to do that. Ironic!

        • Kodie

          Imaginary friends offer no gifts.

      • Norm Donnan

        Free will….personally I dont think God is that fussed with your religion ,He judges right.What is the graduation rate and why do you think you have any knowledge of it ?

        • Pattrsn

          goD isn’t fussed with my religion? Apart from, just what exactly is my “religion”, how do you know what gOd thinks? Is it because it lives in your heart? Do you get messages from your heart god?

          What’s the graduation rate? Piss poor if you have to believe that god sacrificed himself to himself in order for him to forgive you for being born.

    • KeithCollyer

      what?!? another who totally missed the point, in a different way as well

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      There are no tests or exams to pass,

      Well … there’s that whole “how well can you believe?” test? I fail it. I can’t just believe in stuff—leprechauns, Big Foot, God. Dang—I guess that means it’s hell for me in God’s glorious plan.

      I know there are rules about proselytizing here so out of respect for Bob,I wont tell you who that door represents

      I do appreciate your consideration, but feel free to make clear which team you root for.

      The school pass rate is a bit low

      Tell me about it! What a doofus we have for a teacher, eh? You’d think that providing evidence simply for his frikkin’ existence wouldn’t be that tough, but somehow it is, and the apple-polishers in the room are always apologizing for him. Weird.

      • Norm Donnan

        Thats ok Bob,as it says in the good book,”those that seek Me will find Me,when they seek Me with all their heart.”.God is right in your face, you just need to focus,on Him instead of you,and hey,try looking in the right places as well. What team am I on,you need a box for me dont you Bob ?I consider myself a fundamentalist born again Christian,what that means to you is probably quite different to what it means to me.Oh and the doofus of a teacher isnt the problem, it’s the students who as usual are the ones not listening.Those who have or have had teenagers will understand their way of thinking is they think they know best and every one else[parents especially] are total dick heads.This is how I personally see atheists.You dont get what your being told but your experience and perspective is very narrow,…listen to the teacher,you will see He was right when your in the spiritual realm.Satan is like the other teen saying to you “dont worry about it ,it will be fine,do what you want”.He will be your down fall.

        • phantomreader42

          ‘Twas brillig, and the slithy toves

          Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;

          All mimsy were the borogoves,

          And the mome raths outgrabe.

          “Beware the Jabberwock, my son!

          The jaws that bite, the claws that catch!

          Beware the Jubjub bird, and shun

          The frumious Bandersnatch!”

        • Norm Donnan

          Ah Shakespeare,beyond yonder wall

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Well … not precisely Shakespeare in this case.

        • phantomreader42

          It’s not like Norm cares if anything he says is true or not. He’ll just regurgitate whatever the voices in his head tell him to say, with no interest whatsoever in reality.

        • Norm Donnan

          Your just to deep for my understanding maskedman,what more can l say to your poetry.

        • leilaleyla

          Ummm very, very late, but that’s Lewis Carroll’s “Jabberwocky.”

        • Jim Hoerst

          Let me get this straight, If we atheists expand our view to include angels, devils, heaven, hell, human blood sacrifices, virgin births, incarnations, incantations, resurrections from the dead and talking animals then we will understand the world better. Those sorts of things are born of superstition, not knowledge.

          Please tell me how could a rational person believe in these things and how you can maintain that you are rational if you believe in these things and advocate that others believe them also.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Hey, Jim! Thanks for the comment.

        • Norm Donnan

          Personal experience Jim,once you have it you carnt go back. religion on the other hand,dont waste your time,stick with your atheism while your alive.

        • Sue Blue

          If you’re personally experiencing visions of demons and angels, or hearing animals talk, I’d recommend a course of weekly risperidone injections and close medical supervision.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Why should I look for your god? Why not someone else’s god? Why is yours not imaginary but the other guy’s is?

          the doofus of a teacher isnt the problem, it’s the students who as usual are the ones not listening.

          You mean the students that the teacher created himself?!

          The teacher is looking more ridiculous all the time.

    • phantomreader42

      Do you have the slightest speck of evidence to support any of these claims? Any evidence at all? Anything that even vaguely LOOKS like evidence? No? Then why should anyone believe a word of your idiotic dogma?

      • Norm Donnan

        I certainly do masked man,its called the experience of faith.Its not a message you believe but an experience that becomes a message, a message of love and hope.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Uh … PR42 was asking about evidence. I think what you meant to say was, “No, I don’t have evidence. That’s not how I roll–I just go by faith.” Or however you’d phrase that yourself.

        • Norm Donnan

          not quite,but my experience is all the evidence I need and it agrees with the message,my faith is what Im working on rather than my abilities.

        • phantomreader42

          Your hallucinations are not evidence. Again, why should anyone believe your idiotic dogma, since you not only can’t back it up with anything in reality, you don’t even seem to recognize the concept of reality?

        • Norm Donnan

          I take your reality and replace it with my own

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          :-)
          Yes, I’m sure you do!

        • phantomreader42

          So, Norm, you simply do not care whether or not the things you say are true. You’re not the least bit interested in reality, all you care about are your delusions.

        • Norm Donnan

          If you had anything said worth answering and l thought you were genuine maybe

        • phantomreader42

          Since you have offered nothing but nonsense and lies, why do you think you deserve any response but ridicule and derision?

        • MNb

          Well Norm, I certainly need more than your experience. Let’s say my own experience.
          Nope. I don’t experience any god.
          You’re going to criticize me for it? Reread Matth 7:1 again.

    • BobaFuct

      You don’t need money, it don’t take fame; don’t need no credit card to ride this train…

      Wait, what were we talking about again?

      • Norm Donnan

        Your so right….it’s the power of love

        • phantomreader42

          Did you just what?
          Is what you yes?
          Did you whatever?
          Whatever you I guess.
          The stalking horse
          Was hides the guy
          In which the pony was a phony was a lie.
          You say
          Stuff is way
          Way to go
          Go away!

        • Norm Donnan

          come fly with me,lets fly,lets fly away.xx

    • Paul D.

      “There are no tests or exams to pass”

      I’m pretty sure that if you’re a Christian, you believe we have to pass a big theology exam when we die that includes the nature of God, Jesus, salvation, and so on. If you can’t get all the essential questions right, you go to that Other Place.

    • Baby_Raptor

      “I know there are rules about preaching here, so I’m going to preach anyway and just pretend that since I didn’t say Jesus I’m being respectful!”

      Yeah, good job there champ. You did *real* well on respecting those rules. Guess your need to earn points is more important than actually being respectful and making people want to seek your god by actually showing that you’re a good person, huh?

      Your god is not “knocking on the door” of anyones’ hearts. People desperately seek him for years and find nothing.

  • MNb

    Hammer, nail, head. This is exactly what Herman Philipse writes in God in the Age of Science. If theism is meaningful and has predictive power (two big ifs) then atheism has more predictive power.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      I’m a little confused, maybe because I haven’t read that book and can’t make that connection. Could you elaborate?

    • MNb

      Well, you wrote it yourself in your article! Theism predicts a world like Leave it to Beaver. Atheism predicts a more uncomfortable world, in which all kinds of problems remain unsolved and cause irrepairable harm. This assumes that theism can predict anything (which Philipse disputes for reasons you don’t address in your article) and that the word god, defined as a bodiless being, has any meaning at all. Philipse disputes the latter too.

      http://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2013/03/27/is-the-notion-of-god-coherent/

      In short: a bodiless being doesn’t have the means to interact with the material world.

  • Zap!

    If people were struck by
    (very weak) bolts of lightning every time they were bad, they’d soon stop being bad. This might be seem cruel but is it really worse than sending them to hell for all eternity?
    Or if good deeds got you an instant reward, like, an angel flew down from Heaven and gave you cake and a gold star. If diseases only afflicted wicked people. If Earthquakes were localised under the feet of bad guys. If the first chapter of Genesis had been found in every culture in the world, written in every language. If God actually spoke to more than one person at a time, in a clear, unambigous way, and allowed Himself to be recorded on a voice recorder….or even video.
    Any of these scenarios would be better than the present situation.

  • Carol

    Conservative churches in America promote a 50’s political agenda as the means to create a perfect world and Liberal churches in America promote a 60’s political agenda to create a perfect world.

    This reveals nothing about the Christian wisdom Tradition since American “Christianity” has become a civil religion or “churchianity”–more American than Christian.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      By “Christian wisdom tradition,” are you thinking of Christianity as a philosophy?

      I certainly do agree that much of American Christianity has been co-opted by the Right for political purposes.

      • Kodie

        I think Christian Americans are the least American patriots after all. They are exclusionary, divisive, and tyrannical. Plus, they tend to like to pretend our Constitution was based on their 10 Commandments, and that our nation was founded in search of creating a theocracy.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You mean: a small-government theocracy.

          Oh, wait a minute …

      • Carol

        No, Scholasticism is the Tradition that translates the Gospel narrative into philosophical categories. While useful, especially for apologetics, ISTM that something always gets lost in the translation. Scholasticism should be a gateway for theological/spiritual formation, not the resting place that it has become.
        Christianity’s Wisdom Tradition is found in the Writings [and transmitted teachings] of the Early Church Fathers and Doctors of the Church. There is much agreement with the Wisdom Traditions of the other Great Religions, but it is often expressed from the uniquely Christian perspective of the Trinitarian and Christological Mysteries.
        Although my mother “believed in God” from an intuitive, not theological, faith, I received my character formation from Aesop’s Fables, Grimm’s Fairy Tales and literary classics like Louisa May Alcott’s Little Women.
        Much of what I learned is indistinguishable from the wisdom common to all of the Great Religious Traditions and the humanitarian values in secular humanism. Wisdom is what we intuitively sense to be universally true. It’s source is probably the “collective unconscious” rather than common knowledge arrived at through a conscious reasoning process. Wisdom is the “heart knowing” that precedes and often leads to reflective “head knowing.”

  • Llewellyn Andrew

    Does a professor who takes his work serious just advance every student because it gives him a good feeling or does he set a standard.? A man can be a good teacher but if his students choose not to learn, grow, then why should they be given a higher reward. You seem to suggest that the task lies purely with the teacher and that the student should do whatever he or she likes yet still be graduated. I would say that is a double standard. Like any Father, God, who is not a magical being, passes on wisdom and lessons from His experience and for our benefit and in the end when the time comes he rewards according to thrift and deeds and we gain an inheritance. Yes, sadly many of us will not make it, not because of God but because we choose it and it does not mean we will be sent to hell but we certainly will not make it to the top. That is how it works in Gods kingdom, is it any different here.!? Of course for a few there is a severe punishment. We see this here on earth, some enjoy evil, it gives them a false sense of empowerment. They know it cannot last but continue to do their evil anyway. Our world is in a way a reflection of what is to come, and again, its not magical, its reality.

    • Pofarmer

      “God, who is not a magical being, ”

      So, what is this God, and what are his teaching methods?

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

      That is how it works in Gods kingdom, is it any different here.!?

      I hold the infallible Creator of the Universe to a higher standard than fallible people here on earth.

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        iii

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        I believe in your article you hold Him to a lower. You expect Him to graduate more people, to set lower standards. There is a reason why the standards are so high, it is because there is more to man than most understand. We are not a creation, we are the children of a God and Godhood is a title like executive director, doctor, professor, it a higher title of perfection and a symbol of a achieving perfection. We can achieve that same level.

        • Kodie

          It’s a superstition.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I view it from the perspective of evidence. In our modern age with a camera built into almost every device, surveillance cameras installed almost everywhere some surprising images have been recorded which defy many aspects of scientific thought and belief. In the past these could generally easily be dismissed but with mounting evidence more questions are raised .Although it is certainly not a slam dunk it is a plus for faith communities.

        • Kodie

          What are you talking about? Coincidences? Weird shadows? Wishful thinking.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          And you wish to convince me that you believe in science? If you truelly were interested in science you would want to explore these phenomena which are well recorded and not coincidences. Yes there are cases but many are not so easily dismissed and have drawn scientific interest but then again you have little interest in science, just bashing anyone who does?!

        • Kodie

          You speak of evidence, mounting evidence, and images that defy scientific thought, but you do not show it.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Of course there is mounting evidence, for once more video evidence which I know you would love to dismiss and very unscientific it would be but I would not be surprised that you would seeing that your interest is not science but parroting the ideas, many unproven, of others who are equally unsheltered having left the comfort of their stone haven.

        • Greg G.

          I’ve seen videos like that where there werected ghost-like images moving. Turned out to be flying insects very close to the camera and out of focusn as I recall.

        • Kodie

          I have no reason to take you seriously without seeing whatever you’re talking about anyway.

        • adam

          Demonstrate that THESE are from YOUR ‘god’ and they are REAL..

        • Pofarmer

          What in the Sam hell are you talking about?

        • Pofarmer

          We are evolved primates, not fallen Angels.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Are we? You say it with such certainty but I have yet to see solid evidence presented to me to confirm this philosophy and belief.

        • Pofarmer

          Apparently, you haven’t looked very hard. Maybe read Jerry Coynes ” why evolution is true.”

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          In fact the opposite. I wanted to know if it was true, after all they drilled it into our heads in science and biology but acting very scientific and searching for answers is frowned upon by those who wish to force this false science. I believe in science, searching and exploring, not being insulted when the answer is not to the liking of those who lack the ability to think critically.

        • Kodie

          Then why are you insulting? Are you hypocrite?

          How much money do you send your religious organization so they can send you back the ignorant propaganda to make such an arrogant statement without irony?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Do you feel insulted. I made a fair judgement and:-) it applies to the creationist and evolutionist movement. Yes, people lack critical thinking because of indoctrination. They are not dumb, at times make valid points but wish to force their view on you. If you disagree you are an idiot.I do not believe they are but it would be lovely if it did not have to end with a smear fest.

        • Kodie

          I feel that you’ve bought the propaganda and have been properly rendered ignorant of actual science, favoring science that has been wholly invented to steer you wrong, by the organization that profits from your voluntary stupidity. That propaganda trains you to be paranoid of reality and think and say ridiculous things as if they were serious.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          You just could not resist, could you.?!…

        • Kodie

          Resist what? You assert that science education in school is indoctrination and that religious fairy tales set you free to see “the truth”. We know this backwards and forwards. Do you bring something new?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Why is it that you wish to degrade me as a person, how does it elevate your point. I know that many evolutionists are brilliant men and woman, I disagree with them but will not suggest they use drugs because they have an alternative view. Yes, indoctrination. I believe one can benefit far more from science when one can more freely explore.

        • Kodie

          Are you really freely exploring? Or are you sucked into the propaganda that hopes you’ll come along with their ignorance and pay them good money for it?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Well one could well ask you the same question. No, I do not pay a cent as I made clear and nor do I attend to refresh your memory. The ten percent is in line with biblical teachings.

        • Pofarmer

          All right. what about homo sapiens, leads you to conclude that we are created differently than the rest of the life on this planet?

        • adam

          There is a way to solve this NOW, just demonstrate “Angels”

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Demonstrate evolution. I have yet to hear of a single experiment where one creature evolved into another. If you are aware of any I will review it. If its environmental adaption which has certain mathematical limits I am well aware of many experiments.

        • Kodie

          Do you not understand it’s a gradual process?

        • adam

          Each creature IS transitional, so it is your understanding of evolution that is lacking.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Yes, we change and adapt but we maintain our basic form within mathematical limits.

        • Kodie

          What mathematical limits are you thinking of?

        • adam

          What ‘mathematical limits’?

        • 90Lew90

          You have yet to hear… Try antibiotic-resistant bugs. Why are they resistant? Because they evolved. Have you ever seen a tiger with saber teeth? Or an elephant with a shaggy coat? The theory of evolution by natural selection underpins all of the life sciences. If you’ve not seen an experiment demonstrating that it’s sound science it’s because you haven’t looked.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          You know we also go through that process, without it we would not survive but it has mathematical limits and has been described as an intelligent response. The Bacteria remain Bacteria but change to survive just as our immune system adapts but a process where a creature becomes a very different creature falls beyond the mathematical limits and generally adaptation is a reasonably fast process. Notable that in a changed environment they might revert back to their original condition as illustrated by the finches on the Galapagos.

        • 90Lew90

          You keep going on about mathematics and miss the point that DNA is digital. It’s because of our Darwinian understanding of DNA that we’re now developing organic computers. You also seem unaware of the time involved in macro-evolution. Micro-evolution can be observed over the course of months and years. Macro-evolution takes place over eons. There is plenty of popular work by scientists (I’m not one) who are very good and very well qualified to explain this for you. I’m sick of arguing with rank incredulity. Let it just be said that if the theory of evolution by natural selection wasn’t sound, then all of the life sciences would collapse. They don’t. They interlock and cohere and bounce off one another, all under Darwin’s big umbrella.

          For what it’s worth, I’ve never met a Buddhist so resistant to the idea of evolution. Most Buddhists I’ve met embrace it, because it chimes quite nicely with Karma. I have to wonder, why the resistance from you? Your views seem distinctly creationist Christian to me. I’ve read a lot of the Dalai Lama’s work and even better (because he can write in English) that of Tich Nhat Hanh. Both are great advocates for science and positive lovers of Darwin’s theory of evolution. It strikes me that you don’t know much about either Buddhism or science. Christian Emperor in new clothes, perhaps?

        • MNb
        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          you will review it? Are you a biologist? If not, who cares (including you) what you conclude? You’re not qualified to make a conclusive judgment.

          On what grounds do you (a layman, I’m guessing?) reject the scientific consensus? “I don’t care for it” isn’t convincing.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Soon two angels will knock on your door. ……You do have one don’t you?

        • Kodie

          What drugs have you just taken?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          You just couldn’t resist could you!?……

        • adam

          Yes, I have a door, and I am waiting,
          Is this going to take long?

        • adam

          Nothing yet

          Full Definition of SOON
          1
          a obsolete : at once : immediately
          b : without undue time lapse : before long
          2
          : in a prompt manner : speedily
          3
          archaic : before the usual time
          4
          : in agreement with one’s choice or preference : willingly

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Don’t worry, if they exist they will knock on your door and then they will be sufficiently illustrated. But then again it might not be on your time table?!

        • adam

          So why made the claim as a fact, when it is apparently just an act of deception.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Its clear you did not understand my point but lets see, if they are real then so it will be. If it does happen then please do post me.

        • adam

          So then we are in agreement that Angels are NOT real?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          No, we are not. My view is that I can only make such a statement when I have proven without a doubt that they do not exist. Also my reading of ancient texts shows that angel is just a messenger and in many cases were human men, not always heavenly beings who also seem to be men but how can that be proven or disproven unless a person has had a clear personal experience with witnesses so I cannot prove or disprove it. I know there are a few recorded instances but the question is were they real, in some there were witnesses but it is not solid evidence.

        • adam

          So the same with Leprechans, Shiva, Zeus, Invisible Flying Pink Unicorns, Allah, aliens, Big Foot, etc?

        • MNb

          I provided some above.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          I expect him to be like a university president, except infallible. The problems that vex a university president would be trivially solved. What fraction of freshman graduate? For an omniscient university president, 100%.

          God as the petulant “rules are rules!” follower of divine justice is a Bronze Age concept. Call him that if you want, but don’t also pile on titles, Stalin-like, such as omni-benevolent.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I think you very well misunderstand His nature. Universities have rules do they not and to graduate should one not abide by those or are they flexible?

        • Kodie

          It’s your analogy. What makes you think your god abides by your puny-minded human analogy?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Did you notice the question mark?

        • Kodie

          If you want to start saying anything meaningful or logical, please start doing that instead of being cryptic and flaunting your ignorance and dishonesty.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Your bridge is waiting.

        • Kodie

          Just not sure why you’re stalling.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Universities do have rules. They muddle along as best they can, given that the rules and professors are fallible.

          God, on the other hand, is not. With God as the president, provost, and professor, I bet he could boost the “graduation rate” of his college–that is, life here on earth–to 100%. I hear he’s quite smart.

        • hector_jones

          But you understand His nature? And how, pray, tell, did you figure it out?

    • adam

      “God, who is not a magical being”

      But of course ‘God’ by definition is magical

      magical adjective

      2 being so extraordinary or abnormal as to suggest powers which violate the laws of nature

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        How does He violate the laws of nature? Do we have all the answers? It is impossible to defy the laws of nature, God is bound by these as well but He has a far greater understanding of these than we do. From your perspective it is magic. Much of our modern day technology would be viewed in the same way by a more primitive individual, I saw this in Africa as well.

        • adam

          Oh, lets see, claims of creation of the universe, even though it did apparently take 6 ‘days’, talking snakes and donkeys, worldwide flood, resurrection of supposedly ‘dead’ people, eternal AFTER LIFE, answering ‘prayers’, etc..

          So YOU dont believe in an Omni-Max ‘god’ apparently?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Have you ever seen a house build itself?

        • adam

          Is this supposed to be an response to this:

          Oh, lets see, claims of creation of the universe, even though it did apparently take 6 ‘days’, talking snakes and donkeys, worldwide flood, resurrection of supposedly ‘dead’ people, eternal AFTER LIFE, answering ‘prayers’, etc..

          So YOU dont believe in an Omni-Max ‘god’ apparently?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          You do realise that symbolism was often used by ancient scribes and even today one finds it used in Middle Eastern countries. Yes, animals have intelligence, seen a few talking animals, yes limited compared to us so who knows what is possible and not that I believe the donkey spoke Aramaic but that the man for a moment was a given the gift to understand the animal.

        • adam

          Of course symbolism is rampant in mythology, folk and fairy tales and legends.

          So when the bible says a snake and a donkey talked, it doesnt mean what it says nor say what it means.

          It is JUST symbolism, that makes sense.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I think you confuse the use of symbolism to make a point and do so with greater power and a simple fairytale meant to entertain and teach simple lessons. Yes in both symbolism are important but there is a gulf between the two.

        • 90Lew90

          Explain the gulf.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          The gulf is that the one describes a real even but the orator infuses symbolism into the event to make it more easily understood or better retained, the other is pure fantasy meant to entertain and or teach a lesson. Gospel writers also used this to teach lessons.

        • 90Lew90

          How do you discern the fantasy from the reality when both are just as fantastical?

        • Kodie

          So we should take your incredulity into account? You already admit to being de-educated and propagandized by an organization you would voluntarily give 10% of your income.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Now that depends on ones perspective doesnt it?!

        • Kodie

          No. Your logic defies intelligence.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          How does it defy logic.?! Logic is mathematically sound. I will not say all my views are 100 percent correct but they do not defy maths. So if logic is mathematically sound then so are most of my views.

        • Kodie

          You really think so? Then how could it be a matter of perspective?

        • 90Lew90

          She said *your* logic (that being non-logic as far as I’ve seen) defies intelligence. It is intelligence that’s being defied in this equation, not logic.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Yes I meant to type intelligence. Think if you read beyond that it becomes clear.

        • 90Lew90

          No you picked the logic bit up and ran with it.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I did mean to type intelligence, nothing you say will change that and admit that I made and error. She typed that my logic defies intelligence and I was illustrating that my views are logical because they are mathematically sound, not 100 percent by my own admittance and so do not defy intelligence, perhaps her views on intelligence or what she defines as intelligence.

        • Kodie

          You do not make logically sound arguments.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          That is speculative but you have a right to your opinion.

        • Kodie

          No I don’t and neither do you.

        • MNb

          Then your understanding of math is seriously lacking as well. In math conclusions never are more valid than the axioms they are based on and axioms can be changed.

        • 90Lew90

          People build houses. People are subject to the laws of physics. People are not gods. I’ve never met a person who’s showed up and claimed he blinked his own house into existence.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Yes correct.Did not know anyone could blink anything into existence,never read that before. Any religious text where anyone does that?

        • 90Lew90

          Genesis.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Od, saw no blinking in the text, sure you are not familiar with the ancient texts.

        • 90Lew90

          Right then. Neither have I ever met a bloke who said: “Let there be house. And there was house.”

        • MNb

          There was a bloke though who said: “Let there be rock.” And there was rock.

        • 90Lew90

          Thumbs up to you. That had occurred to me. Ang-gus! Ang-gus! Ang-gus!

        • MNb
    • MNb

      I have evidence that my teachers taught me. There is no evidence for any god passing on wisdom and lessons.

  • Llewellyn Andrew

    Now let look at the earth in a year if we all just sat down right now and let nature take care of everything. Firstly I believe not a single human would inhabit this earth. Our settlement will decay and over time nothing will be left except a few traces. Wild nature will fill the void and it would be as if man never was. I know it is a human philosophy that one day there will be no one to remember so it makes our existence pointless and at that point did we exist, yes but the knowledge will be held in the dust and no one will know it.?! Here is the good news, we move on. We continue, our life is not pointless.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

      I don’t see a point here. Yes, humanity may well become extinct, and the earth (or universe) won’t care.

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        The point is that we are eternal creatures. This is but one aspect of our existence.

        • Kodie

          I don’t see any reason to believe that fairy tale.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Believe what you will but it is no fairy tale which is related to magic, magic does not exist.

        • Kodie

          Magic does not exist. It ends “happily ever after”! It is so a fairy tale.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          So you don’t believe happy endings are possible?

        • Kodie

          Endings, yes.

          How much money do you pay to your church?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I do not attend church but if I did it would be ten percent of what I earn.

        • Kodie

          What for?

        • adam

          So we agree ‘supernatural’ events dont happen.
          It does make more sense that these are symbolisms.

        • adam

          But that would be supernatural, and your claim below is that magic does not exist.

          That would seem to mean that “eternal” is just another example of symbolism.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Supernatural is a word used when we do not understand something very natural and yes magic does not exist. We have already seen the immense power of a single atom and it would be arrogant to claim we have exploited its full potential because everyday we learn something new.

        • adam

          Demonstrate eternal creatures in nature.

        • 90Lew90

          Can I ask you where you’re coming from in this? You’re a believer? What flavour. Sorry, I just butted in here.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I have no specific belief system. I have been an Agnostic Buddhist and of late studied Christian views. I do find Protestantism and Mormonism interesting

        • 90Lew90

          Protestantism? That’s a bag of mixed nuts. I’ll give you a Luther quote:

          “People of your sort are hirelings, dumb dogs unable to bark, who see the wolf coming and flee or, rather, join up with the wolf.”

          From Against Latomus, pg. 146 of Luther’s Works, Vol. 32

          Find lots more insults from Luther here: http://ergofabulous.org/luther/

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          What is your point?

        • MNb

          He tries to explain to you what makes protestantism so interesting.

        • 90Lew90

          Filial piety. Dogs and wolves. Chortle. No, you said you were interested in “Protestantism”, whatever that’s supposed to mean. I thought I’d give you a quote from the original Protestant. Hateful bastard that he was.

        • adam

          And the inspiration for the Holocaust.
          Kristallnacht was held on his birthday in his ‘honor’..

          Martin Sasse, Nazi Party member and bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia, leading member of the Nazi German Christians, one of the schismatic factions of German Protestanism, published a compendium of Martin Luther’s writings shortly after the Kristallnacht; Sasse “applauded the burning of the synagogues” and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, “On 10 November 1938, on Luther’s
          birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words “of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.”http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht

          Yeah, Protestantism….

        • adam

          Of course that is why supernatural claims are dismissed by science, they are usually claims out of ignorance.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Many supernatural events are fraudulent. Houdini made its his life mission to expose these and others after him. But even he found things that he could not explain. There is a pool of evidence which cannot be explained or easily dismissed and sadly has been neglected but if one explores it it is truely fascinating.

        • Kodie

          What is it with you religious people not posting citations to back up your claims? What can’t be explained, and why does this send you to cling to the first religious propaganda that appeals to your ignorance?

        • adam

          Ignorance still does not support ‘god’ or ‘gods’ or Angels.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          And ignorance also prevents bright minds from exploring. I find that tragic. Jerry Fodor of Rutgers University and Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini of the University of Arizona wrote a book called ‘What Darwin Got Wrong. Their work has been peer reviewed and perhaps if you take the time you could learn a thing or two.

        • MNb

          Yeah, two non-biologists evaluating the validity of Evolution Theory. Look, I’m living in a developing country and am not going to spend hard earned incourant valuta on a book recommended by an arrogant person like you. You can tell us what’s wrong with Evolution Theory according to those two guys or provide links. Else I just will shrug.

        • adam

          What that we know much more than Darwin did 150 years ago.

          What Darwin Got Wrong is a book by philosopher Jerry Fodor and cognitive scientist Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini

          The London Review of Books published eleven letters (including two from Fodor himself) over the following three months. They included negative responses from Simon Blackburn, Tim Lewens, Jerry Coyne and Philip Kitcher, and Daniel Dennett and a mixed response from Steven Rose.[1]

          Coyne and Kitcher dispute Fodor’s “striking claim that evolutionary biologists are abandoning natural selection as the principal, or even an important, cause of evolutionary change” and state that “[t]his is news to us, and, we believe, will be news to most knowledgeable people as
          well.” They go on to criticise his conceptual and empirical issues, and state that “[t]he rival mechanisms Fodor cites are supplements to natural selection, not replacements”, and that “Evo-devo is not an alternative to adaptation; rather, it is a way to explain how the genes mechanistically produce adaptations.”[1] Evolutionary developmental biologist PZ Myers has expressed a similar criticism of this characterisation of evolutionary developmental biology.[2]

          So WHY would I want to read this?
          Sounds like they lack a fundamental understanding of evolution like you do.

        • MNb

          Thanks for explaining why I should keep my scarce money in my pocket.

        • adam

          It is a pretty easy choice when someone who doesnt understand the SIMPLE basics of evolution tries to convince you to buy a book THEY think refutes the evolution that they have no concept of.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Of course you and others like yourself would be critical because they are questioning and you love your comfort zone. That is not true science which is to use all available tools to discover the truth, to enquire, question and masses have been proven wrong many a time and there is a pile of discarded theories exactly because science moves forward and I venture to say that evolution is not far from the pile, will one day be yet another discarded theory.

        • 90Lew90

          I’d bet the farm you haven’t read Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini. In any case, their book was met with a massive ‘tut’. It was a money-spinner and a deliberate misrepresentation of Darwin’s ideas launched at a time when he was very much in the spotlight after a recent anniversary and the glut of books and media produced on the back of it. Darwin got quite a few things wrong. His tree-of-life idea was wrong. It’s not a tree, it’s more of a tangled thicket. But on the whole, his main idea — natural selection — remains sound. Fodor and Piattelli-Palmarini got mauled, and rightly so, because people who know better saw through them in an instant.

        • hector_jones

          Flake.

        • hector_jones

          Right. You’re the one here who is straying outside his comfort zone and understands true science. Too damn funny.

        • Kodie

          I think you’ve been fooled by someone with an eye on your wallet.

        • MNb

          “because ……”
          Yup. So there are strict rules for rejecting scientific theories.
          1) Show inner contradictions. Thus far you have failed to do so regarding Evolution Theory.
          2) Show incoherence. Thus far you have failed to do so regarding ET.
          3) Bring up empirical data that can’t be explained. Thus far you have failed to do so regarding ET.

          If those two guys, who got negative reviews by experts (ask Adam), bring such stuff up you can present it here. We are waiting.

          “That is not true science”
          Ah, the no true science fallacy.

          “I venture to say that evolution is not far from the pile”
          First of all: evolution never will be put on that pile, just like gravity and electricity never will, because they are common terms used to describe observed events. Evolution Theory might be put on that pile, but just as the refutation of Classical Mechanics (by Michelson and Morley) did not put gravity on that pile neither will any refutation of ET do that with evolution. Fossils, speciation and mutation have been observed and always will be aspects of a process called evolution.
          Above I gave three reasons (there are a few more, but for our little debate they suffice) to put ET on the pile. As you brought up exactly zero reason why that would happen I only can conclude that ET falls outside your comfort zone and that hence you are unwilling to accept it. You are the victim of wishful thinking. That’s something else you have in common with creationists. Some of them have been predicting the downfall of ET for decades now – exactly like you, creationist Llewellyn.

        • adam

          Your God is Jerry Fodor. You do after all lift his words as if he were a God, as if he was all knowing?!

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          It’s irresponsible to reject the scientific consensus as a layperson. On what grounds do you do so?

          When this book (or its thinking) overturns evolution, let me know. Until then, evolution is the overwhelming consensus of those qualified to be polled that it best explains why life is the way it is.

        • hector_jones

          Oh look, another nutjob.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Scientists agree that every alchemical claim (I’m using the term here to mean para-chemistry) is false. Every single one.

          The archives of alchemists is quite extensive. There are probably claims in there that you can’t directly refute since there is no contemporaneous contradicting evidence. Nevertheless, it’s a fair bet that these unanswerable examples don’t overturn the consensus: alchemy is bunk.

          I suspect that the same is true for supernatural claims.

        • adam

          So Houdini couldnt explain everything = therefore ‘god’ or ‘gods’ are responsible?

          Seems more likely aliens would be the default position as they would need advanced technology to get here from far away.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          I think you need evidence to back up such a statement.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Unlike evolution which lacks physical evidence to support it unless we speak of the mathematically sound model, there are numerous accounts written through the ages from different parts of the world. Its a subject that has been explored for thousands of years and one would have to compare the writings to find evidence for the possible existence of eternity but what is remarkable is how cultures in diverse parts of the world have similar traditions including hell, demons, gods and eternal life. Is it by chance?

        • MNb

          “Unlike evolution which lacks physical evidence to support it ”
          Yeah, speciation has never been observed.

          http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
          http://www.darwinwasright.org/observations_speciation.html

          Fossils never have been found, let alone transitional ones.

          http://www.transitionalfossils.com

          And of course mutations are fake.

        • Kodie

          It’s by wishful thinking, political power, and pyramid schemes.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          By chance that cultures throughout history have supernatural claims that are different from each other and from Christianity? Not really by chance, but it certainly is no evidence of every religion being a rough approximation of a single supernatural truth.

        • Greg G.

          There is tons of physical evidence for evolution. Much of it is hidden in displays at museums.

          Egyptian religion had those concepts and has influence many religions ever since Ale Ander opened trade routes to India which already had trade with the Far East.

          If people actually had a sensus diviniaticus , there would be more agreement than warfare between the most similar cults.

        • MNb

          That point doesn’t logically follow from your previous comment.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          we move on.The point is that we are eternal creatures

        • MNb

          It still doesn’t logically follow from your previous comment, no matter how often you repeat it. And I’m not going to believe you because of your beautiful eyes.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Its clear you did not understand my point. Not my problem.

        • adam

          What to make unsubstantiated claims?

        • Kodie

          Your point was to evangelize and make baseless assertions. 1. The earth will go on without humans. But 2. the “good news” – we go on? Why do you think that’s true? Asserting it repeatedly is not a “point”, nor does it logically follow from 1.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          You also clearly did not get it.

        • MNb

          Then you’re a bad teacher, failing to explain what you mean well.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          It was really not that complicated.

        • MNb

          Then you’re even a worse teacher, failing to explain what you mean.

        • Kodie

          You clearly don’t have a point then.

        • MNb

          I do understand your point. It just doesn’t follow from your initial comment, no matter how often you repeat it.
          Funny how quick, as a true believer, you get condescending.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          like I said, its not my problem.

        • MNb

          Nice that you admit that logical fallacies – like the non-sequitur in your original post – are not your problem. Defies what you wrote elsewhere on this page about logic.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Can you explain the contradictions or do you wish to pester me?

        • MNb

          I’m totally pestering you as long as you remain dishonest. I gave you links with evidence for evolution three times now and despite your announcement you haven’t reviewed them. Here you’re dishonest as well. I pointed out a non-sequitur, not a contradiction. They are not the same.

        • Kodie

          I explained them to you.

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Do you ever dream?

        • MNb

          Dreams are the product of our brains, hence temporal in every meaning of the word.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          That is not what I asked you, do you or do you not. I know some people do not, or so they cant remember their dreams.

        • Kodie

          What does dreaming have to do with your baseless assertion?

        • MNb

          I don’t need to answer your question, simply because it’s irrelevant. Yes, I dream.

          “I know some people do not”
          All people do. They just don’t remember. I have learned myself not to remember my dreams.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Well thank you for answering it anyway. As an experiment, explore your dreams. I would ad write down what you dream.

        • Kodie

          That’s not an experiment.

        • adam

          Ah, you mean the world of the IMAGINARY…

        • MNb

          I have done so about 30 years ago. It made me decide to learn myself not to remember them. Now what?

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’..

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Show me a pig evolving into monkey or something else. I am sure you can demonstrate that right?

        • MNb

          What has that to do with anything? Why should I show you? What would it prove? What would it prove if I couldn’t?
          Is this an answer to the evidence I provided for Evolution Theory underneath? In that case I have bad news for you. A pig evolving into a monkey would refute it, because ET predicts pigs can’t involve into monkey. ET says they have common ancestors.

        • adam

          THAT is not what evolution claims.

          You are asking for something ‘supernatural’

          Supernatural is a word used when we do not understand something very natural ….

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          So in a sense evolution is supernatural then because it claims animals dramatically changed from one beast to another opposed to adaptation with its mathematical limits and sound research to back it up.

        • MNb

          No, Evolution Theory doesn’t claim that, quite the opposite. It claims gradual changes.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I am aware of that but what I was asking is to view the process sped up but ist not possible so one can relegate it to speculation until it can be and properly illustrated.

        • MNb

          “what I was asking is to view the process sped up”
          An irrelevant question. You could as well ask to view things falling upward.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Totally relevant. I would like to see evidence but you cant offer it so faith is required. As long as the evidence lacks it is just a pretty idea.

        • Kodie

          What makes you think nobody can offer evidence? Did someone tell you that there was no evidence? And you believed them?

        • adam

          Is Al back AGAIN?

        • Pofarmer

          It seems there is a limitless supply of Al’s.

        • MNb

          You’re lying now. I gave two comments with links full of evidence. Here they come again.

          http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
          http://www.darwinwasright.org/observations_speciation.html
          http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
          http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/100201_speciation
          http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-

          For transitional fossils:

          http://www.transitionalfossils.com

          You announced you would review this evidence. If you don’t I’m going to remind you as long as you stay on this blog.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Of course I will. I will be honest, I do not expect much in the form of evidence but lets see.

        • MNb

          “I will be honest”
          Then you should try harder, because I needed to post these links three times before you even noticed.

          “I do not expect much …”

          So much for an open mind. I guess it never occurred to you to google on observed speciation and transitional fossils. There is an abundance of relevant information available on internet.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Drop the personal insults, you can do that right and I will review the papers.

        • MNb

          As soon as you drop your insults – like “you don’t understand the point.”
          Frankly I don’t care if you review the papers. You not doing it only confirms your dishonesty and ignorance.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          How is that an insult, it is the simple truth. I know its your tactic to bash people, I have dealt with Dawkins himself, it is nothing new. He is a brilliant man but that is sadly the only weapon you have

        • MNb

          Yeah yeah, if you insult someone it’s the simple truth, if you get insulted it’s an unfair judgment.
          You’re arrogant.
          Why do you suddenly get problems with spelling?

        • MNb

          Thanks for correcting the spelling. Good for you that you have dealt with Dawkins. I have never read anything of him. So this

          “that is sadly the only weapon you have”
          is just silly. I don’t need weapons. I gave links with evidence (none of them have Dawkins involved) and you announced to review it. You still haven’t done it. That’s good for me.

        • Kodie

          You’re being selective here. You’re very insulting by lying, condescending, and failing to read and give relevant responses. How is it insulting to point that out to you before you continue doing it?

        • Kodie

          What does it take to get you to stop being evasive and dishonest? You’ve earned no respect for your ideas, and the fact that you make claims with no citations and say it’s not that complicated a point because you failed to make one is insulting personally to me. If you have all the answers, it shouldn’t be that difficult for you to show your work instead of simply leaving it at “we’re eternal creatures”. If you think that’s true, that doesn’t follow from “the earth will be just fine without humans.”

          We’re going to go extinct does not lead to “but not really”. That’s not a conclusion anyone gets from what you posted.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I have listed work by accredited academics below, if you missed it its not my fault and if you want to be arrogant, I accept it, in fact I expect it. continue.

        • 90Lew90

          How do you do italics? I could really use italics!

        • Ron

          Here’s a list you can save for future reference:

          italic = <em>italic</em> (preferred) or <i>italic</i>
          bold = <strong>bold</strong> (preferred) or <b>bold</b>
          strike = <strike>strike</strike>
          underline = <u>underline</u>
          ™ = &trade;
          © = &copy;
          ® = ®reg;

          Other Character Codes

          Google =
          <a href=”http://www.google.com“>Google</a>

        • 90Lew90

          Thanks for that.

        • Kodie

          I use i, b, and s instead of strike. I didn’t know you could make those symbols, I have been copying them from the character map (rarely). You don’t have to put quotation marks around the url.

          Thanks, Ron. Does making the tags in bold keep them visible for instruction purposes or what did you do?

        • Ron

          Yeah, I highlighted the tags to make them stand out. While certain sites will let you get away without the quotation marks around the URL, many others (especially WordPress sites) will not; so I always recommend including them for compliance reasons. And Disqus now strictly enforces inclusion of the “http://” header in the URL address. If you leave it out, you’ll get this.

          Finally, here’s a nice list of HTML codes for the most common characters and symbols. (I’ve also added the link to my previous comment.)

        • hector_jones

          s t u f f

        • 90Lew90

          Thanks. THAT’LL STOP ME SHOUTING!

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’.

        • 90Lew90

          You should see me trying to get up the stairs some nights…

        • Kodie

          What line did you fall for?

        • 90Lew90

          Asking to show the process “sped up” is to betray a profound ignorance of the process.

        • Kodie

          You don’t know what evolution claims, apparently.

          You also never posted these “mathematical limitations” you’re talking about.

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’..

        • Kodie

          If you’re going to argue against evolution, I would think you would know something about it!

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          (Let’s just hope he doesn’t unload the dreaded croco-duck challenge on us.)

        • hector_jones

          I think monkey-pig pretty much covers that ground.

        • adam

          Or that the banana and the human penis are designed to fit perfectly in the hand and mouth.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I do believe you confuse me with creationists. I believe many of their views to be utter crock and not any better than evolutionists bar a few points here and there. for instance the age of the earth. I do not believe the earth is 6000 years old and there is no evidence to support it. the ancient texts are also ambiguous on this unless one uses the English translations. There are also references to a day being a thousand years for God

        • MNb

          The arguments you brought up against Evolution Theory (“pigs involving into dogs”, “sped up evolution”, “mathematical limits”, “lizards only transform into lizards”) are all creationist arguments.

          “I do not believe the earth is 6000 years old”
          An Old Earth Creationist still is a creationist. They deny it, but the guys from Discovery Institute also are creationists. Creationists a) reject Evolution Theory and b) maintain that god did it. You haven’t explicitely stated the latter yet, but as long as you don’t produce an alternative for ET it’s safe to call you a creationist indeed.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          I thought you were an evolution denialist. Sounds like I’m right?

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’.

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’.

        • Greg G.

          Why investigate Christianity and Mormonism while avoiding science? Start with critical thinking and approach them all rationally. You’ll save time.

        • Kodie

          He’s already been button-holed and intrigued by this propaganda that public schools are hammering in wrong science.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Why should anyone avoid science. As far as I know Mormonism encourages its members to use science not ignore or discard evidence. Some brilliant scientists have thus grown up in the Mormon faith including the inventor of Television in the states and has some prominent members in its midst. so too Catholicism, Protestantism.

        • Greg G.

          One shouldn’t avoid science but when science conflicts with the religion you happen to be following, you should change your religion. If you don’t believe me:

          “If scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.”
          ― Dalai Lama XIV, The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          That is why I find Mormonism interesting. It does not clash with science, it harnesses it and produces brilliant scientists.

        • MNb

          Mormonism claims that god and the holy spirit are material, but is evasive about measuring their quantities, like mass and volume. That’s a clash.

          http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_science/Evolution/Official_stance
          “What the church requires is only belief that Adam was the first man of what we would call the human race.”

          According to Evolution Theory there was no first man. That’s a clash as well.

        • hector_jones

          Good thing he left himself plenty of wiggle room with the word ‘conclusively’. For a second there I was worried the Dalai Lama had given up on Buddhism. That was a close one.

        • MNb

          “Why should anyone avoid science.”
          You should ask yourself. As long as you don’t read TalkOrigins and don’t consult the links I gave about observed speciation and transitional fossils you are avoiding science. Why?

        • Kodie

          When you have science, why do you need a religion?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Increasingly it is so and see how people treat unborn children. As religion is removed or perverted man becomes crueller by the day.

        • Kodie

          It’s crueler to be born and get a chance to sin and be sent to hell, I’m pretty sure.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Do you believe people going to prison is fair?

        • Kodie

          What did they do?

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Christianity was needed for this:

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(1099)#Massacre
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism#Massacre

          Apparently almost all christians last 2000 years were perverted. Only you are the pure guy.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Its no secret that Christianity has become perverted over time but the basic teachings found in the New Testament have remained remarkably intact. Peter and Paul both prophesied concerning this. It was the infusion of paganism and world philosophies which altered it and Political powers using it. There was a common effort to suppress knowledge by these groups and keep people ignorant as I see today by some groups. Christianity blossomed in the modern era as the teaching of Christ became more common knowledge. The most generous people in America for Instance are Christians. New Civilisations were formed and sadly that golden era is coming to an in in the free world.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          “Remarkably intact”? The first-century Christians had no concept of the Trinity.

          And there were other Christianities–I bet the Gnostic and Marcionite Christians wouldn’t feel especially comfortable with modern Christianity.

          What concerns you about a post-Christian West? Northern Europe seems to be doing pretty good.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          You mean the fairytale that Northern Europe is doing so well. Its certainly ok at the moment but there are some cracks showing. Many Northern Europeans migrate more central and its clear the massive welfare state cannot go on forever. The Swiss seem to be doing well but they love bucking the trend and even as a inhabitant of Austria it is hard to enter their borders. Generally Christianity is in decline in Europe as a whole and notable that the void is being filled by gambling houses, prostitution and increasing drug use. Also know that alcohol consumption is sky rocketing, especially amongst woman. I have watched the city I live in decline dramatically in just four years, crime rise and its clear spirituality has a place, does help with the ballance of things. Closing, what is terrifying is how more people feel it is fine to betray ones partner as Gods teachings are made meaningless by men.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Fairy tale? Yeah, except for all those embarrassing statistics in which they spank the good ol’ Red, White, and Blue. They beat us in homicide, pregnancies, abortions, and loads of other social metrics.

          I’ve posted on it here.

        • Pofarmer

          There is nothing new under the sun.

        • MNb

          “Its no secret that Christianity has become perverted over time”
          and you are the only pure guy.

        • Pofarmer

          Oh, please. The stats say something else entitely.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Can you supply these stats?!

        • Pofarmer

          Steven Pinker “The greater Angels of our nature.

        • 90Lew90

          Brilliant book. I’m reading his new one at the minute, ‘The Sense of Style’. It’s about writers and writing… Love Pinker.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Show me something that’s 3 but not 1 and 1 but not 3. I’m sure you can demonstrate that, right?

          While you’re at it, I’d love to see compelling evidence of the existence of God.

          Thanks!

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Yes, easy. Its called a team. 3 distinct individuals with the same goals and working together in harmony. So they are three but one in purpose. In The New Testament this is illustrated repeatedly and a request is even made to God by Jesus that the disciples be one as they are. There is a distorted view which I find no evidence for in ancient scripts and in fact contradict them. There are also some known mistranslations which is common knowledge amongst scholars.

        • Greg G.

          You’ve committed the heresy of Tritheism. Off with your head! You’re lucky the Church stopped that.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          A team? That’s the heresy of Partialism. That’s not the Trinity.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          The New Testament is clear. Three beings with one purpose.

        • MNb

          If the NT is so clear on this subject, why do so many fans of the book disagree with each other?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Nope, the NT isn’t clear at all. If you could go back in time to ask Paul to give you his take on the Trinity, he’d wonder what the heck you were talking about.

          Anyway, “3 beings with 1 purpose” isn’t what the Athanasian Creed or indeed any Christian theologian says.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          So in making that statement you discard many events in the New Testament including Stephens vision before his death where he beheld Christ standing on the right hand side of God in Heaven. Christ s Baptisms, his prayers in Gethsemane, The Lords Prayer and that He instructed men to Pray to God, not to Him but end it with his name. It very simply clear that God and Jesus are two different beings, both Gods and united in purpose but the one being above the other in authority.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          The Trinity didn’t exist in anyone’s mind, including that of Jesus (or whoever was putting words in his mouth) in the first century.

          Know why? Cuz they would have told us about it! This fundamental concept would be clearly explained, not inferred from vague clues.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          What do you mean by vague clues?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          All right, good point. The clues to the Trinity are probably better described as “nonexistent,” if we’re objective.

        • Greg G.
        • adam

          So ‘Christ’ is one god
          ‘God’ is one god
          That is TWO so far
          So YOU are are a polytheists

          How many ‘gods’ are possible in YOUR religion?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Also having researched the subject many of the original Christian views on God were altered with the power moving from Jerusalem to Rome. For the first time Christ and God became one being, before that it was not so except perhaps in a few cases.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Yes, the views changed over time. That doesn’t support the idea of the word of an immutable god, however.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I find a consistency which other scholars have noted as well for instance the teaching of loving your neighbour as yourself.

        • Kodie

          Wow man, that’s so deep! Who could think of that without Jesus?

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’.

        • hector_jones

          If we are eternal creatures then what were we doing before we were born and why can’t we remember it?

        • adam

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Your God is Mark Twain. You do after all lift his words as if he were a God, as if he was all knowing?!

        • Greg G.

          No he didn’t. He quoted Mark Twain.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          And what did Mark contribute but an opinion? Any man can express and opinion and be right or wrong. It is not scientific. It does not rely on evidence. So it is a faith based matter. I meant that as a question as well.

        • Greg G.

          Yes, opinions can be right or wrong. They can also be well-informed or not. Everybody is entitled to an opinion but most people would be better off stealing their opinion from somebody smarter. Stealing the opinions of someone with no way to evaluate their quality, as in religious opinions, is what one should avoid.

        • 90Lew90

          At least Mark Twain went to the bother of thinking before he opened his trap.

        • hector_jones

          This pretty much sums up your own musings.

          Flakes like you with your own nonsensical ideas about human existence are a dime a dozen. I can go downtown right now and ask any random drunk or homeless person what they think about these things and odds are I will get a more coherent view than you have presented here.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Hang out with drunks much?

        • hector_jones

          If you had any reasoning ability at all you would see that my comment in no way implies that I ‘hang out with drunks much.’ But while we are on the subject, what have you got against drunks? They are eternal creatures, according to you.

        • adam

          Gee I wish he would get off the pot, and actually DEMONSTRATE these eternal creatures he is CLAIMING.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Yes they are and how much time have you taken to help one? We all have weaknesses, we are al fragile and we all have great worth.

        • hector_jones

          Such dishonesty. First you say ‘hang out with drunks much?’ clearly implying that there is something wrong with me because you think I hang out with drunks. Now you want to turn the tables and make it sound like my flaw is that I don’t spend enough time hanging around with drunks and helping them with their problems.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          It was a simple question. You could interpret is as you like. Those are very much your thoughts, not mine.

        • Kodie

          Oh, bullshit Llewellyn. You are so backpedaling, like the typical dishonest Christian. Say what you mean, and don’t leave anything up to interpretation.

        • hector_jones

          It’s as if every christian who comes in here is in a competition to be more loathsome than the last.

        • Kodie

          If that’s true, Llewellyn has to get a lot worse.

        • hector_jones

          If he wants to win, sure. But clearly he’s trying.

        • Kodie

          He is showing his true colors now.

        • MNb

          Big fun, in my nasty opinion.

        • 90Lew90

          Some of the best people I know are/were drunks. I’ve met quite a few good homeless people too. The mask of the Buddhist-Mormon-Christian slips.

        • Kodie

          You’ve never heard from god, actually, just people.

        • adam

          REALLY?
          One quote and he is a God?

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          That is a good question. According to Mormonism there is what is called a pre mortal life in which we resided and many reside with God but in a spiritual form with spiritual bodies. These bodies resemble our own but lacking the imperfections and is the seat of our intelligence. There like here we had and have free will.

        • hector_jones

          Pure speculation entirely lacking in evidence. This just raises more questions than it answers. If we had bodies which ‘resemble our own’ how come we started this present existence as two cells coming together inside a female uterus? What happened to all those ‘bodies which resemble our own but lacking the imperfections’? If they were so perfect why didn’t we just keep them?

          And you have completely ignored the problem that people have no memory of this alleged ‘pre mortal’ life.

        • 90Lew90

          That’s a load of bollocks.

        • adam

          So demonstrate these ‘mysterious’ eternal creatures that you keep CLAIMING.

      • Pofarmer

        At some point you have to wonder – just how many hippie Dippin theologies are there?

    • adam

      Nature has already taken care of everything and is the VERY reason human inhabit this earth.

      And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
      So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’.

  • Llewellyn Andrew

    Well there are so many of you here hoping to twist my tail that it is hard to respond so I will not respond to any post below but will review the papers as I stated, will not be the first time. If they have solid evidence I will accept evolution, if not then I will gladly accept any abuse, it really does not bother me any more.

    • 90Lew90

      Buy a book. There are plenty. If you’re put off by Dawkins you could do a lot worse than to try Steve Jones or Richard Fortey or Matt Ridley. Look them up and leave your computer alone for a few days. Then come back.

    • MNb

      It’s not even necessary to buy books. This is an excellent start:

      http://www.talkorigins.org

      Then you never will write silly things about pigs evolving into dogs or sped up evolution anymore.

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        It was in no way silly. It would be interesting two see two processes. One, a current transitional form second a creature changing into another, most interesting would be flightless into a flying or visa versa but because of the lengthy periods mentioned the only way to observe this is speeding up the process or wait millions and billions. Not sure I will be around that long, well not in my current form that is.

        • Ron

          What you’re asking for is the equivalent of wanting to see a human being develop from an embryo to an 80-year-old adult over the span of 60 seconds.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          So are are you saying it is impossible, and I do mean speeding up the process.?! So if not so then evidence is lacking and od that men put so much trust in something which they do not know for sure. I would call that faith.

        • Greg G.

          Evolution can be surprisingly fast depending on the contingencies. See Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I am aware of the Italian Wall Lizard. Read the report before but once again the Wall Lizard still remains a Wall Lizard with some adaptive qualities. As you stated and I have also, adaption is generally a fast process and as far as I know has mathematical limits which are calculable.

        • Greg G.

          They changed from an animal that was mostly insectivorous to mainly vegetarian. Adaptation is shorter legs and stronger jaws. That required a lot of variation from the small population. But they even developed a cecal valve to help with the digestion. That’s more than adaptation, it’s innovation.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Simply, is it not a wall Lizard ? One finds this same pattern in Birds, snakes and almost every living thing which falls under the law of nature and survival. If you had to the take the Lizard back to its original habitat one would see it possibly revert to its original form but its still remains a Lizard. It is indeed an intelligent response but as stated before it has calculable limits. A geneticists explained to me that they can calculate future forms of the flue virus mathematically and have a high level of accuracy but the calculation does not lead to a new creature but a flue virus. It remains a flue virus as we remain human even as aspect of our being is altered to survive.

        • MNb

          Still not consulted the links I gave about observed speciation. You remain dishonest.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          You acusse me of dishonesty so show me where I stated I have reviewed them yet. I have not had the time yet. You sure are in a hurry to make a fool of yourself.

        • adam

          So demonstrate these ‘mysterious’ eternal creatures that you keep CLAIMING.

        • Pofarmer

          Sure, we’ll remain homo sapiens until we’re not.

        • Greg G.

          You could say that we and all other land vertebrates are fish that are adapted to breathing air and surviving on land.

          When a creature changes, the old information is lost. The species cannot retreat. Your mind has religious poisoning. You should seek the antidote.

        • MNb

          I provided antidote: the link to TalkOrigins. Like every single creationist he refuses to consult it.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Religious poisoning.? I do not need indoctrination and
          I applaudd all the free minds our there who dare to question. May liberty propsper and hate fail.

        • Kodie

          Show us the formulas you’re referring to.

        • MNb

          Clearly still not consulted the links I provided which describe observed speciation.

          “he Wall Lizard still remains a Wall Lizard with some adaptive qualities”
          You should reread the report. Slowly. Biologists don’t know yet if there was a genetic base for this evolution.

        • adam

          And ‘eternal creatures’ are natural according to you.
          So then you should be able to easily demonstrate ‘eternal creatures’.

        • MNb

          “So if not so then evidence is lacking”
          BWAHAHAHAHA! This lack of evidence actually confirms Evolution Theory. If you had began to read something about it you would have known. Instead you prefer to stick to your silliness. So much for your logical skills.

        • Ron

          Faith, when employed by theists, means belief in a deity. Hebrews 11:1 defines it as “the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

          My “faith” is placed in “the substance of things discovered, the evidence of things observed, tested, measured and quantified.” I trust the scientific method because of it’s demonstrated reliability; that is to say, it actually works. Faith in the supernatural, on the other hand, not so much.

          I would strongly encourage you to follow those links provided by MNb, especially the one from Berkeley: Evolution 101

        • MNb

          Certainly it would be interesting, but for another reason than you claimed: such observations would refute Evolution Theory. You suggested the opposite and that is silly.

        • Pofarmer

          “a current transitional form”

          Tall Water Hemp

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          This falls within adaption and the laws of nature.

        • MNb

          All speciation and hence all transitional forms fall within adaptation and the laws of nature. They are systematically formulated within Evolution Theory.
          Your answer doesn’t make any sense.

        • Pofarmer

          Sure it does. But if you looked at common waterhemp 10 years ago, it’s physiologically very different than tallwaterhemp today. It is also genetically different. At some point will it become it’s own type? Will the common type die out? Not sure. But evolution is adaption.

        • Greg G.

          There are two types of species on this earth.
          1. Those that evolve into one or more other species.
          2. Those that go extinct before evolving into a dI’d feet species.

        • hector_jones

          If you want to see a current transitional form just look at your parents. Each of your parents is a transitional form between their parents and you.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Transitional form as in between one species and the other which is part of the process called speciation.

        • hector_jones

          But the separation between yourself and your grandparents is part of the process called speciation. You are also somewhere in between your 1000th great grandparents and your 1000th great grandchildren, assuming you will have any, who could be different enough from your 1000th great grandparents that they are called a different species from them and you become a transitional form. You are the one who insisted on a ‘current’ transitional form. You need to think this through. I’ve pointed you in the right direction.

        • MNb

          Dogs are a transitional form the way you demand. Some races are still capable of getting offspring with wolves; chihuahua’s obviously not anymore.
          Of course speciation totally has been observed. A few examples:

          http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
          http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
          http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/news/100201_speciation
          http://www.darwinwasright.org/observations_speciation.html
          http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/2011/12/18/evolution-watching-speciation-occur-observations/
          http://phytokeys.pensoft.net/articles.php?id=1432

          Of course there were transitional forms in every single case.
          But you prefer to keep your head firmly stuck in the other end of your digestive system. I have given you such links before and you simply refuse to read them.
          Yawn. You’re just another dishonest apologist – a liar for Jesus. Screw the 9th commandment.

  • Guest

    Apocalypse 20
    (Challoner-Rheims 1961)

    And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. And he laid hold on the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. And he cast him into the abyss, and closed and sealed it over him, that he should deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be finished. And after that he must be let loose for a little while.

    And I saw thrones, and men sat upon them and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the witness to Jesus and because of the word of God, and who did not worship the beast or his image, and did not accept his mark upon their foreheads or upon their hands. And they came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life till the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection! Over these the second death has no power; but they will be priests of God and Christ, and will reign with him a thousand years.

    And when the thousand years are finished, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go forth and deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, and will gather them together for the battle; the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up over the breadth of the earth and encompassed the camp of the saints, and the beloved city. And fire from God came down out of heaven and devoured them. And the devil who deceived them was cast into the pool of fire and brimstone, where are also the beast and the false prophet; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

    And I saw a great white throne and the One who sat upon it; from his face the earth and heaven fled away, and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. And another scroll was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the scrolls, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and hell gave up the dead that were in them, and they were judged each one according to their works. And hell and death were cast into the pool of fire. This is the second death, the pool of fire. And if anyone was not found written into the book of life, he was cast into the pool of fire.

    Apocalypse 21:1-14
    And I saw a new heaven and a new earth. For the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and the sea is no more. And I saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God with men, and he will dwell with them. And they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes. And death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

    And he who was sitting on the throne said, “Behold, I make all things new!” And he said, “Write, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely. He who overcomes shall possess these things, and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But as for the cowardly and unbelieving, and abominable and murderers, and fornicators and sorcerers, and idolaters and all liars, their portion shall be in the pool that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

    And there came one of the seven angels who had the bowls full of the seven last plagues; and he spoke with me, saying, “Come, I will show thee the bride, the spouse of the Lamb.” And he took me up in spirit to a mountain, great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, having the glory of God. Its light was like to a precious stone, as it were a jasper-stone, clear as crystal. And it had a wall great and high with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. On the east are three gates, and on the north three gates, and on the south three gates, and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city has twelve foundation stones, and on them twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

    • MNb

      So what?

      • 90Lew90

        …And the men in white coats came. And I am holed in a padded cell.

    • Ron

      “Judas…went away and hanged himself.” Matthew 27:5

      “Go and do likewise.” Luke 10:37

      “What you are about to do, do quickly.” John 13:27

    • adam

      Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)

      7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create EVIL: I the Lord do all these things.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

      You missed all the stuff about how the new city will be built from emerald, jasper, gold, and so on, structural materials that will have no value in a place where money, rarity, or jewels will have no meaning.

      • 90Lew90

        Revelation 23:1: Gotcha!

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          I got nuthin’. (Which sounds like what you got!)

          My favorite bit of Rev. is 22:18-19, where it calls down curses on anyone who tweaks with the words in the document.

          It’s almost like they knew that documents tend to get modified over time …

        • 90Lew90

          Something you might be interested in: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-29256983

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          The cultural divide within America isn’t encouraging. Thanks.

        • 90Lew90

          You should see it in Northern Ireland. Phrases like “two communities”, “two cultures” and “divided society” are lodged in the discourse. As far as I’m concerned that just perpetuates the idea of division but our untravelled journalists and politicians seem incapable or unwilling to move the discourse along. Certainly they don’t seem to appreciate that they’re feeding division by constantly couching everything they say in those terms. The last most contentious sectarian issue is in a pocket of north Belfast, and the way it’s presented you’d think the whole place was still fighting. Nobody ‘on the ground’ gives a shit any more. Ah well… *Shrugs*

        • Pofarmer

          And within a very short time of when those documents would have been written, fwiw.

  • Llewellyn Andrew

    Here is a note in response to the fellow who suggested Northern Europe is doing so well due to the growth of Atheism. Germany is one of the nations where Atheism is rapidly expanding and the result is not rainbows and ponies. Yesterday I watched a reportage on the rise of school violence in Germany. One of the main reason why it is on the rise is because increasingly more children are raised by one parent who has little time to take care of their child, worse, teachers have no right to protect the children. This is as a result of the growing move away from religion where accountability , integrity and honour is elevated. Its also becoming more acceptable in German society to cheat on ones partner and not take care of ones family. If this is what Atheism produces then how is it superior to religious thought and philosophy where on is taught to act more responsibly.!?

    • 90Lew90

      What trash. “I watched this thing on TV and it makes me think atheism is ruining Germany.” Gimme a break.

      • hector_jones

        None of this would be happening if Germany went back to its Nazi roots.

        • adam

          Yes, the ‘good’ ole Nazi roots….

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Hitler was in no way a Christian. He was a cold blooded murderer and sphycopath. Like any politician he would make such a claim to win the support of the masses but his actions were not in line with Christian teachings and some of his sternest opponents were from the Christian community.

        • Kodie

          Let’s suppose Hitler was not actually a Christian. All those people he “lied to,” in our thought experiment, supported him because he said he was – because they’re Christians, and psychopaths. That’s what being gullible will do to you.

        • Guest

          Let’s suppose he was one. Stalin was one of yours, and he killed even more people, so what have you accomplished?

        • Dys

          The only thing required to be an atheist is a lack of belief in god. That’s it – it’s not a worldview or a belief system. To say Stalin was “one of ours” demonstrates that you don’t really understand that at all. What Stalin actually accomplished was replacing religion with a cult of personality. In other words, one religion was replaced with another, with Stalin himself at the center and essentially treated as a deity.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Stalin ate meat. Do you eat meat? If so, I guess that makes Stalin one of yours.

        • MNb

          Nothing, though one could bring up that Stalin in several ways was inspired by religion as well (he kind of deified himself).. I’m not the one who’s arguing that atheism is morally superior to christianity because of Hitler, the Crucades etc. In fact I mocked PZ Myers yesterday mercilessly for discovering only now that atheism is not morally superior.
          You are the one who claims that christianity is morally superior to atheism and brings up Hitler as evidence. I think it funny to rub it in that Hitler belonged to your camp, that’s all – as much as Pol Pot (the best example for atheist cruelty) belongs to mine.

        • MNb

          Llewellyn and facts …..

          http://www.nobeliefs.com/speeches.htm
          http://www.nobeliefs.com/hitler.htm

          “his actions were not in line with Christian teachings”
          Then there have been precious few christians last 2000 years, including you. Because you already have beared false witness on this site and that is not in line with christian teachings.

          “and some of his sternest opponents were from the Christian community.”

          Well, yes, christians have a long tradition smashing each other heads on the correct version of their belief systems.

        • adam

          Sorry, but Hitler WAS a Christian.

          And Hitler cant help you:
          He was following in the footsteps of YOUR ‘god’

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt5gLf455Q8

          Dont YOU know that Kristallnacht was held on Maritin Luther’s BIRTHDAY.
          The FATHER of PROTESTANTISM!

          Martin Sasse, Nazi Party member and bishop of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in Thuringia, leading member of the Nazi German Christians, one of the schismatic factions of German Protestanism, published a compendium of Martin Luther’s writings shortly after the Kristallnacht; Sasse “applauded the burning of the synagogues” and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, “On 10 November 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany.” The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words “of the greatest anti-Semite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews.”

        • Guest

          William L. Shirer:

          What the Hitler government envisioned for Germany was clearly set out in a thirty-point program for the “National Reich Church” drawn up during the war by Rosenberg, an outspoken pagan, who among his other offices held that of “the Fuehrer’s Delegate for the Entire Intellectual and Philosophical Education and Instruction for the National Socialist Party.” A few of its thirty articles convey the essentials:

          1. The National Reich Church of Germany categorically claims the exclusive right and the exclusive power to control all churches within the borders of the Reich: it declares these to be national churches of the German Reich.
          5. The National Church is determined to exterminate irrevocably…the strange and foreign Christian faiths imported into Germany in the ill-omened year 800.
          7. The National Church has no scribes, pastors, chaplains or priests, but National Reich orators are to speak in them.
          13. The National Church demands immediate cessation of the publishing and dissemination of the Bible in Germany…
          14. The National Church declares that to it, and therefore to the German nation, it has been decided that the Fuehrer’s ‘Mein Kampf’ is the greatest of all documents. It…not only contains the greatest but it embodies the purest and truest ethics for the present and future life of our nation.
          18. The National Church will clear away from its altars all crucifixes, Bibles and pictures of saints.
          19. On the altars there must be nothing but ‘Mein Kampf’ (to the German nation and therefore to God the most sacred book) and to the left of the altar a sword.
          30. On the day of its foundation, the Christian Cross must be removed from all churches, cathedrals and chapels…and it must be superseded by the only unconquerable symbol, the swastika.

          You’re sorry all right, not as sorry as you’re going to be.
          70 years later you’re still falling for Hitler’s lies.
          That’s pathetic.

        • MNb

          Shirer is partly wrong. Rosenberg hardly had any influence once the war begun. There were non-christian nazi’s indeed and Rosenberg was one of them; Bormann and Himmler were two others. But the claim was that Hitler was a christian, not that every single nazi was.

          “The National Reich Church of Germany”

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanns_Kerrl
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

        • Guest

          It’s really tragic how stupid you are.

        • Dys

          Yep, because childish trolling is a sure sign that you’re a winner. Guest fails again.

        • MNb

          Fortunately I’m not as stupid as you. See, the Hitler quotes from those two links are anything but lies.

        • Guest

          And you fell for them too, what a surprise.
          You’re dismissed.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Any fact that doesn’t suit you is false or a lie. Any fact that does suit you is correct or true. Anyone who doesn’t follow your scam is dismissed. Brilliant strategy.

        • adam

          Sorry, you’ve FAILED

          Full Definition of CHRISTIAN

          1 a : one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ

          Christianity is a “Revealed Religion”TM
          It gets revealed to each individually.
          What got revealed to him is that genocide is one of the things the ‘christian’ ‘god’ does and commands, so it was a ‘just’ thing to do.

          Hitler WAS a CHRISTIAN.

          “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and
          Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless
          love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.

          -Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

          He doesnt sound any different than many of the ‘christians’ posting here, and NO DIFFERENT that any other christian who justifies the atrocites in the bible.

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        You can believe whatever nonsense you like.

        • 90Lew90

          Pfft. Listen to yourself.

        • MNb

          We can – you do.

    • hector_jones

      Wow. Sounds to me like Germany must be going really gay too for all this bad stuff to be happening. You know what would probably solve this problem? If Germany went more Muslim, in which accountability, integrity and honour are elevated.

    • MNb

      “This is as a result of the growing move away from religion”
      Prove it. Also explain why crime rates (for instance murder and rape) are so much lower in Germany than in the USA.

      http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime

      Of course your entire comment starts off with one of the most dishonest strawmen I have ever seen.

      “he fellow who suggested Northern Europe is doing so well due to the growth of Atheism”
      There is no such fellow on this blog. Nobody claimed it’s “due to the growth of atheism”. For one thing it’s well known that former East-Germany has more atheists than former West-Germany and nobody will maintain that former East-Germany does better. Moreover I doubt if atheism is growing in Germany (afaIk it’s stable), but I could not find statistics.
      But above all it’s of course exactly the other way round. It’s christians like you who claim that christianity is beneficial for a population. That’s simply refuted by the demographic facts – comparable populations do not better when more religious; they usually do worse. The cause, as is recognized by even dogmatic atheists like Jerry Coyne, is not more religiosity, but religion and politics being more intertwined. You might ask Lew how that has played out in Northern Ireland/Ulster. You might also compare statistics on the American Bible Belt with statistics on secular areas in the USA (which is not the same as less religious).
      You’re bearing false witness. Your last question is irrelevant. Go repent if you take your belief system seriously.

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        Then please do explain the Mormon success. You seem to suggest that being part of a religious community is harmful, yes, that very well depends on the very specific community. I am certainly not friendly to all religious thought, some ideas clearly being harmful to society.

        Now speaking about dishonesty, the subject of Northern Europe was discussed below and the fellow is Bob so please don’t waste my time with self righteous rubbish.

        • MNb

          “You seem to suggest that being part of a religious community is harmful.”
          That’s just your overheated imagination or worse, your religious dishonesty. I never stated something like this. It’s you who wrote the opposite – that Germany falls apart because the country turned away from religion. I am a Dutchman, hence read Dutch newspapers on internet and can assure you that it’s dishonest nonsense. And no, I’m not confusing you with Bob. It was not him but you who asked

          “If this is what Atheism produces then how is it superior to religious thought and philosophy where on is taught to act more responsibly.!?”

          and this question is irrelevant.
          You are the one wasting time by amusing us with self righteous rubbish. About atheism and Germany.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I live in Austria and and am well aware of what is happening in this region. Please also learn about context. Its clear you are confused.I had a conversation with Bob which you claimed did not exist. Not sure what your point is.

    • adam

      Sorry, but Germany cant help YOU….

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zt5gLf455Q8

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

      Let’s assign the right cause to the effect. Yes, let’s be concerned about social conditions, but I don’t see the link to atheism.

      • Llewellyn Andrew

        I have watched the growth of atheism and its influence. I have not seen society benefit one bit from it. Parallel to that the growth of radicalism which had its cycles in the last twenty years. With the growth of atheism and people deserting religion people are less likely to assemble in an environment where strong bonds and a sense of community is established and more in environments which appease and overload the senses and so dull them over time. People are becoming more self absorbed and less aware of the troubles others have to face. Last night they focussed on teens in Germany who are increasingly drawn to the use of hard liqueurs and would even consume these in front of their parents with no sense of shame. Germany has a growing problem as the shift away from religion has also lead to children increasingly being disrespectful to their parents as the parents lack the tools to teach their children, the world telling them that discipline is best left to the government and others. Statistics clearly show how teenagers increasingly suffer from alcoholism and its not just isolated to them but in the group woman between the ages of 21 and 24 alcohol abuse has increased dramatically, so too other substances which will have harmful effects over a lengthier period but mixed with alcohol could prove deadly.

        4 years ago a friend of my wife passed away because her heart could not take the abuse. A young woman who had no heart defects but the Atheistic culture she associated herself with showed no concern for her life and well being. Now I am not saying all atheists are cold hearted beings and of course there is compassion and lack of compassion amongst all groups but atheism with all its pomp and speaking cannot beat the actions of members from the religious communities when it comes to the well being of others and in this I exclude radicals which constitute but a small percentage of that community.

        The Mormons for instance are the most generous people in America, Utah being the most generous state.

        Also if I look at the open assault on religion or alternative ideas to atheism then how can I consider it good, it truelly has no soul. What I like about Christianity especially is that it teaches that one should love people no matter their belief and live an life being an example rather than forcing ones will on others. In this respect I also find it tragic that certain religious communities have made efforts to force their will and way on others, I personally believing, based on my experience with faith communities, that liberty is essential and freedom to be respected. Tolerance is important and even though I believe Atheism to be seriously flawed it des not mean one shuld condemn those who belong to the movement but rather also note the good, even attempt to build bridges where possible.

        • MNb

          “I have watched the growth of atheism and its influence. I have not seen society benefit one bit from it.”
          Where? When? This is such a vague statement that it’s meaningless.

          “Last night they focussed on teens in Germany who are increasingly drawn to the use of hard liqueurs”
          They are liars and you are bearing false witness again. As you underneath obviously refused to repent your belief system is a scam.

          http://www.dw.de/german-teenagers-are-drinking-less-alcohol-but-more-irresponsibly/a-14818251

          Moreover you haven’t shown that atheism in Germany has risen last 20 years. As far as I know the percentage of non-believers in Germany is constant.

          “Statistics clearly show how teenagers increasingly suffer from alcoholism”

          Only statistics sucked out of your big fat religious thumb.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Its clear you have no interest to research the facts an rather just throw childish insults.

          http://www.worldcrunch.com/why-eastern-germany-most-godless-place-planet/culture-society/why-eastern-germany-is-the-most-godless-place-on-earth/c3s5177/#.VCaEnP6HaR-

          http://www.dw.de/in-germany-excessive-drinking-by-teens-is-on-the-rise/a-4542438

          Hamburg has a majority of atheists and is famous for its sex culture and industry. Not a great advert for atheism Im afraid or if you are for a community where everything goes then I guess its a great advert.

          Links used for commentary.

        • Greg G.

          Religion warps your mind into thinking sex is wrong.

          Edit: I did not type “sexist”. Spellchecker did it.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Never said sex is wrong. Certain religions teach wisdom, to take one partner and it is still the smartest thing to do. At the height of the Aids pandemic in South Africa over a half a million people died in one year and the numbers are still terrifying today but good that more people are getting help. A couple of months back they did a reportage on Ibiza and the sex culture there. What they showed was shocking and I ask, do you care about the well being of your fellow man?

        • Kodie

          You mean because the Catholic influence tells them that using a condom is a sin against god????????????????????????????????????

          You RIDICULOUS moron.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Catholicism is a minor belief in Southern Africa and condoms may reduce numbers, I agree with that, but its the culture degrading woman flowing from America and Europe which I believe is a great reason why the disease spread like wild fire. The gangster culture has become very popular amongst the younger generation there and woman have a hard life due to this. That is just one part of the problem. Poor leadership only promoted it. Folk moving away from moral values made it much worse. The smartest people in my mind are those who maintain monogomous relationships. Although it is not a miraculous cure the disease would well be at an end or close to it if people lived less for lust and more for pure and honest love.

        • Guest

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          The law of Moses, lovely. Not relative.

        • adam

          Sure it is

          King James Bible
          For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Matthew 5 18

        • Kodie

          You still must be made to realize that none of what you said makes a conclusion that there is a god.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Your God made people driven by lust. Don’t blame the people.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Did He.? He also gave man the ability to excercise self control as many have done through the ages.Every man has to be tested.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Are people able to get through life without sinning? If not, then I blame the design.

        • MNb

          In Heaven as well as on Earth?
          Tested on what? God is supposed to be omniscient, so he always knows at beforehand what the outcome is of any of his tests.
          You don’t make sense.

        • hector_jones

          The Catholic Church is far from atheist and yet it’s famous for its child-sex culture and industry. Not a great advert for religion I’m afraid.

        • MNb

          You are the one who is not interested in facts. I gave them in my previous comments, with links. You wrote about an entire country. Hamburg is just one city. I gave this link before:

          http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Germany/United-States/Crime

          Because these facts don’t interest you you suddenly turn to one city. Even then you get things wrong. Hint: Hamburg is safer than

          http://travel.amerikanki.com/most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world/

          All in thoroughly religious countries. Not exactly an advertisement for religious in your twisted logic.
          Sex industry can be found in any major city.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          If you want to find a correlation with society that sucks, look at the growth of Christianity in Africa. Is that a causal relationship as well?

          Not sure what your problem is with “sex culture”–or even what that is. You could clarify.

          As for Hamburg, you do know that those people eat meat, right? That’s the correlation that I see: lots of eating of meat and lots of wickedness. The connection is clear to those who have eyes to see!

          Or maybe it’s eating bread–they do that in Hamburg, too, if you can believe it. Or pastries. But the connection is clear–either meat, bread, or pastries are causing the immorality in Germany. Or beer.

        • MNb

          “You could clarify.”
          He probably means this.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reeperbahn

          Also home of the Hamburger underworld. How atheism is responsible for the Reeperbahn (and the Amsterdam equivalent, De Wallen) only knows Llewellyn.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          I lived in Africa for many years. Its not a very small place. Could you be specific or do you mean the more volatile North. I did view religion do good and wonder if you see that religion is not just all bad and corrupt, it is after all a term which applies to a broad set of beliefs including Atheism. That I found surprising but its logical that it is.

        • Kodie

          Do you mean the witch hunting or the scare against using condoms to prevent the spread of AIDS?

          Because Africa is a large place that wouldn’t otherwise have these problems without the influence of religion.

          Atheism is not a religion, and you seem to have a lot of dumb, unfounded claims that you are just repeating what you wish to believe.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          I’m referring to the inroads Christianity has made in Africa. I can’t imagine this is surprising or even news to you.

          A fascinating map showing the change in the center of gravity of Christianity worldwide here.

        • MNb

          “if you see that religion is not just all bad and corrupt”
          Strawman, false dilemma or both. Nobody here claimed that; certainly not me. You are the one who claims that atheism is all bad and corrupt and fail to provide evidence.

        • adam

          Nazism was not all bad and corrupt either…

          Definition of ATHEISM
          a : a disbelief in the existence of deity

          dis·be·lief
          noun ˌdis-bə-ˈlēf
          : a feeling that you do not or cannot believe or accept that something is true or real

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          So you see negative traits within society and, without evidence for a causal connection, you are just going to imagine one?

          My suggestion: let’s worry first about where the evidence points. Otherwise, your argument is simply, “Christianity makes for a better society; therefore, it’s true.”

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          The negative traits are solidly linked with the growth of atheism and move away from religion and where religious communities with good values still have some degree of influence people prosper because there are less erosive problems to deal with. The reason is that religious communities will resist the introduction of these elements into society compared to other more accepting communities who have moved or are moving away from religion and its teachings.

          Religion also tends to create structures which will lift people out of poverty by teaching them self reliance and give them the right support.

          One of the most used programs today to help people find work was initially created by members of the Mormon community to help its members and has been adopted and copied by governments in Europe and other parts of the world.

          Its clear Atheism can bring nothing to to the table.

          I believe the results of an organisation shows how close to the truth it is or not . In this respect certain religious communities outperform other communities.As have been shown, Jews and Mormons being at the top of the list. Just look at the increasing level of influence of the Jewish and Mormon communities in American politics. Also, these to communities are more favoured by the US government when it comes to employment because of the fact that they have such high standards.

          An interesting study showed that the three most informed groups were Jews, Mormons and Atheists, so one plus for the Atheist community.

          In the end there is a terrible culture amongst all, we all included here to only bad and not see the good because there is good in every community, even the atheist community.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Note, I exclude radical groups from this be they religious, right or left.

        • Greg G.

          IOW, you exclude all religious groups that prove you wrong and include only the ones who act more like atheists.

        • Llewellyn Andrew

          Ones that act like Atheists. Not sure Mormons and Atheists have much in common.Mormons are leaders, some Atheist as well but they mostly follow, copy and paste.

        • Kodie

          Who told you all about atheists?

        • Greg G.

          Here in the US, there is a strong statistical correlation for states and even counties, where the most religious rank highest in crime, divorce, and other negative statistics and the lowest in income, education, and other positive stats, while the least religious states are at the desired end of those rankings.

          As societies have become less religious, they have become better. Christianity looks good only because it tends to be associated with post-Christian civilization.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          “solidly linked”? I think you mean correlated. Not helpful.

          As for programs that help people out of poverty, give me the amount spent by the church in the U.S. on social programs vs. secular organizations vs. government programs. I think you’ll find that church programs make up a very tiny third place.

          I believe the results of an organisation shows how close to the truth it is or not

          Thanks for your frankness, but I’m surprised you’d admit that.

        • Kodie

          There is something to people organizing themselves and adhering to some set of rules or customs, and outcome of their system, but you cannot logically conclude that their set of supernatural beliefs is therefore true. That’s a non sequitur. Religions are really just organizations of people adhering to a set of standards or rules. Why they do so is to belong in the group, at the peril of being cast out of the group, and the group maintains that these aren’t their rules but their interpretation of a god’s rules. There doesn’t need to be an actual god to make rules and have people follow them. The problem is how the people are approached to believe in silly things.

          You are veering toward “atheists have no morals” and “atheism does not provide a moral structure,” which, the second one is true, the first one is not. You are also upset about some of the customs and standards that most people are willing to relax once they know there’s no reason to avoid certain things. If a Jew says they are not allowed to eat pork or shrimp or a cheeseburger because their god does not allow it, then why do you eat foods they’re not allowed? You don’t have the same “moral” structure that forbids things, and you can see them perhaps from an objective point of view that there is nothing wrong with eating these foods, and yet there are people in every town in America who are frightened of breaking a moral law against a god by eating pork and shellfish. That’s a silly reason to avoid certain foods. Heart disease and allergies and obesity and diabetes and celiac disease are all rational and good reasons to avoid certain foods.

          So why are you judgmental about other behaviors? Offending god is a stupid reason to behave otherwise, while harming another person is a good reason to avoid behaving in ways that can harm them.

          You are pointing to success(an ambiguous term) as a way to tell whether a religion is “true”, why don’t you just do what behaviors you think will contribute to success and avoid ones that do not, and don’t harm others, and you should be ok and not worry about listening to religious marketing propaganda that you are fearful of how the world is going. One of the harmful things religions do is get together and pretend they’re morally superior and judge people, hostilely, and warn you about offending god – really they’re the ones who hold these behaviors against you, nobody else. Another one of the harmful things religions do is collect your cash, so they want to make you fearful of the world and seek a safe haven with a moral structure because they seek to make money. Still doesn’t make god real though.

        • Kodie

          What – has no one requested you cite your sources? The flaws in your reasoning have been pointed out already, but you seem to have been sucked into the European version of Fox News, not a reliable source for any truth.

      • MNb

        Let’s be concerned about real social conditions, not imaginary ones like LLewellyn produces.