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Who Cares What the Bible Says About Gays? Look What it Says About Banks!

The second-century Apocalypse of Peter surveys the eternal punishment that God delivers to people according to their crimes. In his visit to hell, Peter saw blasphemers hanging by their tongues, murderers bitten by snakes, liars with fire in their mouths, the greedy rolling on stones that were razor sharp and red hot, transvestites and lesbians thrown off a cliff repeatedly, and apostates roasted.

“And in another great lake, full of pitch and blood and mire bubbling up, there stood men and women up to their knees: and these were the usurers and those who take interest on interest.” (The Apocalypse of Paul changes the punishment to consumption by worms.)

Who says that religious studies can’t be fun?

The Bible says nothing about two loving homosexuals wanting to get married—see my recent post here—but it says plenty about usury. (Usury can be either charging excessive interest or charging any interest on a loan.) Why get in a lather about vague statements about homosexuality in the Bible when it’s quite explicit about usury? Shouldn’t the Christian anti-gay crowd focus their attention here instead?

The Old Testament declares lending with interest sinful

The vision of hell from the Apocalypse of Peter isn’t in the Bible, but all the sins that it discusses are there, including usury. Here’s how Ezekiel describes an evil man.

He defiles his neighbor’s wife. He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things. He lends at interest and takes a profit. Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head (Ez. 18:11–13).

Given the crimes that he categorizes it with, Ezekiel clearly doesn’t like lending with interest.

There are a few special cases. Jews can’t take interest from poor Israelites (Ex. 22:25, Lev. 25:35–7). They can’t take interest from any Israelites, but it’s allowed for foreigners (Deut. 23:20). And the same laws apply to resident foreigners as to Jews (Num. 15:15, Ex. 22:21, Deut. 10:19, Lev. 19:33, and others).

(This clear distinction between “us” and “them” is also present in the rules for slavery. For Jews, it was indentured servitude; for non-Jews, it was slavery for life.)

The Old Testament makes clear that, aside from foreigners, lending with interest is forbidden.

Christian thinking on usury

Wikipedia summarizes the progression of thinking about usury within Christianity. First, clergy were forbidden from engaging in usury in 325, though it was defined as interest greater than one percent per month. Next, this prohibition was extended to the laity. In the Middle Ages, things became more strict.

[The Third Lateran Council in 1179] decreed that persons who accepted interest on loans could receive neither the sacraments nor Christian burial. Pope Clement V made the belief in the right to usury a heresy in 1311, and abolished all secular legislation which allowed it. Pope Sixtus V condemned the practice of charging interest as “detestable to God and man, damned by the sacred canons and contrary to Christian charity.”

Usury today

We’ve made banking (including lending with interest) a central part of our modern economy, but the problem of wrongful lending still exists. Predatory lending is lending with unfair or abuse terms.

Payday loans are another issue. According to the FDIC, “The typical charge is $15 to $20 per $100 advanced for a two-week period, resulting in an APR [annual percentage rate] of nearly 400%.” A Muslim player on the Newcastle United soccer team has refused to wear his club’s jersey because the sponsor is short-term loan company Wonga, which charges interest rates of up to 6.56% per day.

Payday loans have declining in the U.S. to $3.3 billion per year, though economics and policy drove this, not Christian outrage.

Consistency, please

As you may have guessed, lending with interest isn’t a primary issue for me. I am outraged when powerless people are gouged by excessive interest rates, but that isn’t on topic for this blog. What does concern me is consistency. How can you rely on the Bible to support a stand against homosexuality and not be anti-usury? It’s not like usury existed thousands of years ago but doesn’t in our modern economy.

Christians may say that this anti-usury thinking in the Old Testament doesn’t apply anymore. Fair enough, but then why imagine that any anti-gay sentiments in the Old Testament apply?

We cannot know that Santa definitely doesn’t exist.
This is technically true.
But what’s your best guess?
Go on. Be bold.
— Ricky Gervais

Photo credit: Wikipedia

About Bob Seidensticker
  • GubbaBumpkin

    Lending at interest is also outlawed in Islam.

    • Sebastian

      And it was outlawed in christianity, for quite a time but when catholics spotted it may bring serious money, pope changed rules and said ‘yeah, it’s all good now, but we are doing it for good!’

  • KarlUdy

    It’s Newcastle United, not Manchester United, but on the whole, a heartfelt “Amen”. Lending at excessive interest is a blight on society because it is most vulnerable who suffer (just as it is with officials who accept bribes).

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      That was a dumb mistake! Thanks for the correction.

      It’s good to hear that we agree.

      • KarlUdy

        Makes a nice change doesn’t it :-)

        And the church in general is also very concerned about this

        Wonga is a short-term lender in the UK that charges 1% interest a day (or more). It is a modern day loan-shark that sucks the poor into terrible debt.
        Apparently, the Church of England plans to force it out of business – by competing against it:

        “I’ve met the head of Wonga, and we had a very good conversation,” the archbishop told the magazine. “I said quite bluntly that ‘we’re not in the business of trying to legislate you out of existence; we’re trying to compete you out of existence’.”

        FYI The Church of England is by far the major religious body in the UK.

  • WalterP

    What does concern me is consistency.

    You didn’t do so well with consistency on the other thread (re: selective deference to scholarly consensus).

    Why do you expect religious people to do what you yourself don’t?

    This what we would call being prejudiced against a particular type of people.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      You didn’t do so well with consistency on the other thread (re: selective deference to scholarly consensus).

      You didn’t do so well understanding what we were talking about.

      I too can cherry pick scholars who already agree with my position, but that’s not fair, at least in my book. You want to look at all theologians, not just the Christian ones? OK—go for it. And what are they going to tell you about Christianity?

      This what we would call being prejudiced against a particular type of people.

      And the prejudice is … ? You keep telling the punch line without telling the joke.

      • WalterP

        Well technically all theologians would probably arrive at a consensus you don’t like (like: theology is worth studying, at the least). So you’d thereby have to defer to it according to your very poorly-formed epistemology about what lay people “must” do.

        But as I said many times, reality doesn’t give a fuck what your gerrymandered belief maps say, nor does it care what mine says. So your whole consult-the-belief-map thing has been nonsense since the beginning.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          So you’d thereby have to defer to it according to your very poorly-formed epistemology about what lay people “must” do.

          And your approach, by contrast, is …?

          But as I said many times, reality doesn’t give a fuck what your gerrymandered belief maps say, nor does it care what mine says.

          You keep saying that. And you keep not saying how we should go about discovering truth about reality.

          I’ve stated my approach many times, and you’ve not argued with it many times. You clearly enjoy being outraged, but you’ll have to be clearer what it’s about. Sounds like we agree. Sounds like someone needs a hug.

        • WalterP

          Nice try with the cuteness.

          Your approach can’t account for the selectivity of your own gerrymandering, which has the power to shape whatever consensus you want to find, nor can it account for historical cases where the belief map was completely off. You haven’t come up with a response for that.

          You also are implying that all knowledge is scientific, which, in Nox’s words, was so foolish that no one has ever believed that. If you begin recognizing that we have a lot of non-scientific, non-consensus-supported knowledge, the belief map fails yet again.

          Your argument is fine: for a scientism adherent with no sense of history and a dogmatic view of science. Perhaps that’s why you’re so drawn to it.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Sorry to disappoint, but there’s no gerrymandering, as I’ve made clear. You want to include the entire set of the world’s religious scholars? They don’t follow the rules of science, which is why I don’t treat their consensus the same as the consensus of scientists. But forget that—what is this merry band going to tell you about the resurrection? No consensus there (at least if the numbers of scholars are representative of their numbers in society). Or about the Trinity. Or about the accuracy of the Bible.

          Nice try with the cuteness.

          It’s a lot more pleasant to read than your rage.

          nor can it account for historical cases where the belief map was completely off

          The belief map of science? Show me when the belief map of modern science (science in the last couple hundred years) was off for more than a few decades.

          You also are implying that all knowledge is scientific

          Wrong again.

        • WalterP

          You also are implying that all knowledge is scientific…

          Wrong again.

          Well there you go, perhaps there is hope you’ll shake off some scientism chains here and liberate yourself from your dogma.

          But you’d have to admit most knowledge doesn’t have a global consensus map and yet you accept it anyway. This would raise the question of why you’re subjecting religion to a higher criteria (a non-gerrymandered global map that even science doesn’t have) than much of your other knowledge. That’s probably not a question you’re ready to deal with though.

          This what we would call being prejudiced against a particular type of people.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Well there you go, perhaps there is hope you’ll shake off some scientism chains here and liberate yourself from your dogma.

          My own hope is that you’ll understand what you’re talking about before you put on the executioner’s black hood.

          But you’d have to admit most knowledge doesn’t have a global consensus map and yet you accept it anyway.

          Juggling lots of concepts isn’t your forte, so let’s just focus on what I said initially. I was talking about the scientific consensus.

          That’s probably not a question you’re ready to deal with though.

          On the contrary. I’ve corrected you so often that I feel like Don Quixote.

        • WalterP

          If you accept that only science would have a scientific consensus (a circular statement that seems entirely obvious), then your whole argument goes down: of course religion wouldn’t have a global consensus, nor would morality, nor would history, nor would x,y,z beliefs….You would need to reject all those beliefs as well as religion.

          But again, this is what we would call being prejudiced against a particular type of people.

        • Kodie

          Prejudiced against the sort of people who seek to endanger or oppress everyone who doesn’t believe their fairy story? The one there’s no consistent interpretation for? The one there is no evidence for?

          Yes. Science is consistent. It’s a tool of observation, it’s not a conspiracy, you asshole. No tricks there.

        • Pattrsn

          Walter that’s not a circular argument it’s simply the nature of science. Oh never mind.

        • Pattrsn

          I’m starting to wonder if Walter isn’t some kind of Turing test.

        • WalterP

          You guys don’t care much for counter-arguments in these parts, do you. My mistake for questioning things we don’t like to question here.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Wow–your batting average is terrible.

          Read some of the comments from some of the more civil Christians. Life is like a mirror: you act like a dick, and you get the same in return. (I think I stole that from Jesus.)

          Question all you want, but it does help if you listen to the answers so that we don’t have to frequently correct your angry misfires.

        • WalterP

          You’re doing everything you can to avoid the question of why religion needs the consensus map that most other types of knowledge don’t need.

          I’ve produced the most likely answer for your avoidance: this is what we would call being prejudiced against a particular type of people.

          Life is like a mirror: you act like a dick, and you get the same in return.

          Nothing anyone has said or posted here has been at all surprising or bothersome, I’m not even sure what you’re referring to. And if my posting links to google books and requesting someone respond to the philosophical refutation of your belief system is, in your words, acting like a dick….well please, give me the same in return.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          avoid the question of why religion needs the consensus map that most other types of knowledge don’t need.

          Yes, you’ve tossed out gerrymandering and prejudice. Alternatively, we could consider what I proposed at the first (and is discussed in more detail at that post): that the map of world religions highlights how religion and science interpret the world differently. Science desires to understand reality and come to conclusions that, after a short period of uncertainty, are either universally accepted or rejected. That’s not how religion works, and that’s what the map of world religions highlights.

          But perhaps I’m not understanding your challenge. If the key word in your sentence is needs (as in, Why should religion care about having a consensus?), if you don’t see any value in making claims that are plainly true, like science, that will be acceptable to someone who’s open minded, that’s fine.

          Nothing anyone has said or posted here has been at all surprising or bothersome

          You’re like the Tasmanian Devil in the Bugs Bunny cartoon. He may think everything looks normal, but from the standpoint of everyone else, he’s chaos.

          I can see that encouraging you to be a more winsome Christian won’t get very far with you. You’re made of tougher stuff.

        • WalterP

          You keep slipping into scientism, though earlier you were probing the possibility of freeing yourself….

          …if you don’t see any value in making claims that are plainly true, like science, that will be acceptable to someone who’s open minded, that’s fine.

          I have no idea what “plainly true” means. And how this follows from anything I’ve said is an amazing abuse of logic.

          Want to try again on why religion needs the map but not other types?

          I’ve produced the most likely answer for your avoidance: this is what we would call being prejudiced against a particular type of people.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You keep slipping into scientism

          What a relief that we have you to point out my heresies.

          earlier you were probing the possibility of freeing yourself….

          Oh, please. I’m an atheist! We never do anything right, deliberately.

          how this follows from anything I’ve said is an amazing abuse of logic.

          Not only did I misunderstand you, apparently, but that misunderstanding was a logical error. Only with an atheist, eh?

          Want to try again on why religion needs the map but not other types?

          Not especially. I can’t imagine what we have yet to discuss.

          If I thought that this was an honest appeal for information to inform a dialogue, I’d be happy to do my best. But it’s not that.

          I’ve produced the most likely answer for your avoidance: this is what we would call being prejudiced against a particular type of people.

          An new punch line! (And I liked the old one so much …)

        • WalterP

          I’ll leave you here to continue jumping up and down pointing frantically at your maps then.

          Should any interested parties want to engage the sources I brought in that seem to refute the beliefs being expressed here, you can find those in the other thread. I can’t help but notice those lines of conversations went largely unanswered. I would hope more people here would be interested in engaging counter-arguments and challenges to their beliefs.

          Again, I miss the old atheism.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I’ll leave you here to continue jumping up and down pointing frantically at your maps then.

          Yeah, trying to get you to listen to an argument that you don’t want to listen to is pretty difficult.

          I can’t help but notice those lines of conversations went largely unanswered.

          I might’ve missed something. Apologies. But if you’re throwing down a gauntlet, point out what I’ve not responded to, just to rub it in a little.

          I probably didn’t respond because I was too ashamed to admit that you defeated me.

          Again, I miss the old atheism.

          Yeah, you’ve said that. If I ask what the “old atheism” had that was so much more noble and intellectual, will I get random insults or useful information on areas that need improvement?

        • Kodie

          Did you make any?

        • Pattrsn

          Sorry Walter but I don’t think your posts qualify as arguments. For one thing you don’t seem to have any kind of grasp of the meanings of the words you use, like gerrymandered, or even science. All you do is state the same thing over and over just slightly rephrased. At no point have you actually produced a counter argument, or have even appeared to understand why it is that you’re arguing against.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          He’s certainly a test of some sort.

        • Pattrsn

          Still upset about the religion map Walter? You need to come to some closure about that.

    • Kodie

      There is no excuse for the hypocrisy of religious people, if the bible is inerrant truth and hell is real.

  • Carol

    I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The materialism of affluent Christian countries appears to contradict the claims of Jesus Christ that says it’s not possible to worship both Mammon and God at the same time. –Mahatma Gandhi

    “The appeal of which Jesus Christ in person is the living embodiment, the distinctively Christian reality, must be the criterion everywhere. Christians may never identify themselves totally with any party, institution, or even Church. Only totalitarian systems demand total identification. Christians may never join uncritically in every cry of the age. Only partial identification can be justified: insofar as this party, institution or Church corresponds to the Christian criterion or at least does not clearly contradict it.” Hans Kung, On Being a Christian

    “It is almost impossible to keep the idols of our own culture from influencing us, whether we want it to happen or not. This is certainly true when it comes to the so-called American dream. We need our eyes opened! We need to be called out! “ —Darrin Patrick, founding pastor, The Journey, St. Louis

    “Perhaps the most revolting character that the United States ever produced was the Christian businessman.” –H.L. Mencken

    In the beginning the church was a fellowship of men and women centering on the living Christ. Then the church moved to Greece where it became a philosophy. Then it moved to Rome where it became an institution. Next, it moved to Europe , where it became a culture. And, finally, it moved to America where it became an enterprise. –Richard Halverson, former chaplain of the United States Senate

    In a rare interview in 1967 with Thomas McDonnell, [Thomas] Merton pronounced that the great crisis in the church is a crisis of authority precipitated because the church, as institution and organization, has overshadowed the reality of the church as a community of persons united in love and in Christ. He now charged that obedience and conformity with the impersonal corporation-church are a fact in the life of Christians. “The Church is preached as a communion, but is run in fact as a collectivity, and even as a totalitarian collectivity. ~ George Kilcourse, ACE OF FREEDOMS: Thomas Merton’s Christ, Notre
    Dame Press, 1993

  • smrnda

    The church used to be very nasty towards money lenders when those money lenders were Jews and not Christians, and that happened during an era where Jews were shut out of so many lines of work that they didn’t necessarily have any choice in the matter, with the church being totally complicit in all the antisemitism. So basically, if someone who isn’t a Christian does it, the church has to talk about how evil it is, but once Christians start cashing in on interest rates that make a Medieval Usurer seem like a charitable enterprise, then it’s time to reinterpret the scriptures.

  • wtfwjtd

    Jesus says absolutely nothing about homosexuality, but he had plenty to say about rich men and how they made their money. And, there’s the story of Jesus driving the “money changers” out of the temple; apparently, the writers of the gospels must have felt this was a very important issue. So, why are modern Christians obsessed with condemning homosexuality, but not concerned at all about usury?
    More questions than answers here, but my point is that this isn’t just an Old Testament concern, and apparently the writers of the New Testament thought it a far more important issue than most of today’s believers. Then again, I guess they hadn’t realized yet that Jesus was in fact a Republican(tm).

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      Luckily modern folks have Republicans to correct them on this point.

  • Y. A. Warren

    Close-knit community is what true Christianity is all about. We have turned our churches into parts of political systems, all relatively anonymous. The Jews had rules governing their close-knit society. Jesus came to build a new paradigm for creating close-knit community. Christianity sold out to government in the very early years, becoming the political system of Christendom. This is a group that obviously does not follow the example of Jesus as their “christ.”
    Perhaps it is time to go back to the fork in the road and recreate the “churches” of the early followers of the Joyful Jewish Jesus. I will offer to teach a person to work, as I have many times in both my personal and professional life. I will not simply give them money to get rid of a sense of responsibility. I will offer community to all who have as their mission committed, responsible, accountable compassion to other humans, same sex or otherwise, adult or child. This does not make me a “Christian,” but it does make me feel more fully involved in humanity.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      Community sounds great. That is a positive aspect of Christianity for many believers.

      • Y. A. Warren

        True. Comminity starts with 2 committed to the same purpose and path.

  • Rachel

    Excellent post. I took on another beloved Christian myth over the same issue, the “Biblical marriage” lie on my blog. http://rachelshobbithole.blogspot.com/2013/03/dear-christians-who-oppose-gay-marriage.html It is genuinely astonishing how much of the Bible they’ll skip over in order to craft an argument that suits their ideas. Susan B. Anthony put it best: “I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do,
    because I notice it always coincides with their own desires.”

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