Daniel’s End Times Prediction: a Skeptical Approach

horses and guards

We’ll wrap up this series on Daniel with one final interpretation of the 70-weeks prophecy, a secular one. If this interpretation is accurate, the 7 years of tribulation, the Rapture, and all the rest are built on nothing.

(For the first Christian interpretation of Daniel 9 go here, and for the first post in this series, go here.)

Remember the timeframe of the composition of the book. It’s the beginning of the Maccabean Revolt, when things were looking bleak for the Jews. Jeremiah had said that 70 years in Babylon would erase the sins of the Jews, and God would bring them home and prosper them. But now it’s the 160s BCE, and Antiochus Epiphanes has massacred tens of thousands and polluted the Temple. What’s the deal? Wasn’t the suffering supposed to end?

That’s why Gabriel visits Daniel (in chapter 9) to say that it wasn’t 70 years, as Jeremiah thought, but 70 weeks of years. And—whaddya know?—from the standpoint of the audience, that long period was just about to end. Telling the readers that they are living in the end times and that they don’t have long to wait is typical of apocalyptic literature like Daniel.

What follows is the interpretation of Chris Sandoval (“The Failure of Daniel’s Prophecies”). I’ll step through Daniel 9:25–7 and give this skeptical interpretation.

From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the leader, comes, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks.

The 7 weeks and 62 weeks aren’t back to back. Let’s return to the 7 weeks and focus first on the 62 weeks. It starts when Jeremiah’s 70 years starts, in 605 BCE. That prophecy is the “word” that explains the exile and promises the rebuilding of Jerusalem. It ends 62 weeks later in 171 BCE (605 – 62×7 = 171) with the death of the Anointed One, high priest Onias III.

Jerusalem shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

The 7 weeks extend from 587 BCE when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar until 538 when Babylon itself was conquered and exiles returned to Judah (587 – 7×7 = 538). This isn’t part of the big timeline, nor does it need to be. Since we’ve gone from Jeremiah’s 70 years to Daniel’s 70 sevens of years, the number 7 (the number of completion) is obviously important. Chopping out a block of 7 sevens serves several purposes: (1) it leaves a remaining timespan of 62 weeks that nicely fits between important dates, (2) that 49-year time period was roughly the time during which Jerusalem lay in ruins, and (3) it’s numerically pleasing (with all those sevens).

After the sixty-two weeks, the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.

The 62 weeks is pulled out as a separate unit and makes sense as our primary block of time. Onias, the Anointed One, was put to death in 171, at the end of the 62 weeks.

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.

Antiochus Epiphanes is “the ruler.” He was the Seleucid king who corrupted (the word for “destroy” can also mean “corrupt” or “pervert”) the city and Temple. He had tens of thousands of Jews massacred. This was the beginning of the Maccabean Revolt.

He will confirm a covenant with many for one week.

This was also a period of civil war between traditional and Hellenized Jews. Antiochus killed high priest Onias, well-loved by the traditionalists, and made alliances with the Hellenized Jews. From the standpoint of the traditional Jews, the ones behind the rebellion and the writing of Daniel, those Hellenized Jews were collaborators or even traitors.

This begins the final week of years, 171–164 BCE.

In the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.

Halfway through this “week,” Antiochus prevented Jewish sacrifices and created the “abomination that causes desolation,” the sacrifice of pigs to Zeus in the Jewish temple. (That’s discussed in detail in the first post in this series.)

Of course, this whole thing would’ve been a lot easier if the author had dropped the pretense and given names to things, but where would the fun be in that?

Like it or not, this interpretation is both more plausible and is far more honest to the text than the Christian interpretations.

Since the Bible and the church
are obviously mistaken in telling us where we came from,
how can we trust them to tell us where we are going?
— Anonymous

(This is an update of a post that originally appeared 4/2/14.)

Appendix: Here’s the timeline that shows the important dates (all BCE) and the blocks of time.

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  • Dannorth

    We can be sure that the Christian interpretation of Daniel is correct because of the divinity of Jesus. And we know that Jesus was divine otherwise he wouldn’t have been prophesied in Daniel.

    See easy peasy. Plus I refuse my namesake waning in irrelevance. So there, checmate atheist!

  • Bob Jase

    Knowing the ancient Jews were rotten prophets doesn’t make the Christian prophets any less rotten.

    • MystiqueLady

      I wonder if this was “prophesy” or was it written after the historical verifiable dates?

      • RichardSRussell

        Every cake is a miraculous fulfillment of a prophecy called a recipe.

        • MystiqueLady

          Please, don’t give the fundegelicals another “thing”. I can see it now: Christian Bakery Features Prophecy Cakes!

        • RichardSRussell

          Not much different from fortune cookies, then, except the bakers aren’t Chinese and their products aren’t available to gay people.

        • Greg G.

          I can see it now: You are going on a long journey… TO HELL!

          We can still add “in bed” to them.

        • Cozmo the Magician

          Somewhere someone is putting this in a fortune cookie: “Today is not a good day to buy cake”

        • Cozmo the Magician

          It has SEVEN layers and THREE toppings and ONE crucified cherry.

        • MystiqueLady

          And it sends your diet straight to hell! :d

        • Cozmo the Magician

          Hmm.. now there is an interesting project. I need to find some bible verses that say how bad dieting is.

  • Kevin K

    Isn’t 7 some sort of magical number? Or is that 4? Or 6? Not pi though.

    • epicurus

      Don’t forget 3, and 9, and 2, and oh yeah, 10, and 8, and…
      An old study bible I had long ago would claim that just about every time there was a number reference it had some kind of frickin special significant magical meaning.

      • Kevin K

        So, only 5 is left out? Poor five!!

        • Michael Neville

          But “five golden rings” must mean something.

        • http://humanistchaplainjourney.blogspot.com/ Mark Landes

          Only in holiday songs

        • epeeist

          Well the elves got three and the dwarves got seven. Not sure which race got five.

        • Cozmo the Magician

          Tolkien left out the verse ‘Five for the internet trolls in their mom’s basements’

        • Michael Neville

          How do you think that Treebeard and the other ents were able to overthrow a mighty wizard like Saruman? It wasn’t just clean living and leafiness that did it.

        • Kevin K

          Big. MAJOR. CHORDS!!!!!

        • https://www.jonmorgan.info Jon Morgan

          I have heard that 5 was the number of grace, 6 the number of man (think 666…), and 7 the number of perfection.
          Even when I believed the Bible the “proofs” for these things sounded like cherry-picking.

        • Aram

          It gets the middle piece of 153 being special, because that’s how many fish Jesus caught or something.

        • TheNuszAbides

          pentagram, duh.

        • Greg G.

          A Vietnamese friend explained why Asian tea sets come with different numbers of cups. The Chinese have four cups because the word for “five” sounds like death. The Japanese have five cups because their word for “four” sounds like death. The Vietnamese have six cups because they like to party.

    • MystiqueLady

      It is the Number of Completion — Ancient civilizations all had various magic numbers, and 7 is one of them.

    • Greg G.

      They saw seven planets, at least that’s how Josephus is translated, the Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. Civilizations saw the same planets so that made 7 their lucky holy number.

    • Sandpirate

      But, 42 is the answer to all questions.

      • Cozmo the Magician

        Nope, 42 is the answer to just ONE question ‘The Ultimate Question of Life The Universe and Everything” Of course nobody knows exactly what that question IS.

        • Sandpirate

          Wouldn’t the “Everything” part include all questions? Or would that just stick us in some sort of never ending Boolean loop?

        • Greg G.

          So ‘The Ultimate Question of Life The Universe and Everything” is “Forty-two?” and the answer is the confirmation “Forty-two.”

        • Sandpirate

          Makes perfect sense.

        • RichardSRussell

          I believe it was explained in a sequel as “What’s 9 x 6?” (There were some rounding errors in the intervening calculations.)

        • Cozmo the Magician

          But sadly, that question was flawed as the computational matrix of the great bio-computer known as Earth was disturbed when the dominate native evolving hominid species was replaced by marooned exiled hair dressers, ad executives and telephone sanitizers. The Vogans really had no need to destroy it after all…

    • Cozmo the Magician

      The real magic number is ‘Eleventy-eleven’ and you can type it using just two keys !!!11

    • Michael Neville

      A good apple pi is as close to magic as we humans can get.

      • Greg G.

        I’ll take some of that pi a la mode, and could you put a little ice cream on mine, please?

    • Otto
  • Ed Senter

    More honest? and More plausible? What a joke!
    The skeptic’s view just pulls numbers out of a hat and inserts them into nonsense.

    The Bible confirms itself. If you want to take Daniel and interpret it in isolation, you will never understand. And If you are seeking predictions instead of understanding, prophecy is nonsense. But, if you read Daniel along with every other book of the Bible, particularly with Revelation, you will begin to see the forest and the trees won’t stump you.

    Start with the gap interpretation of prophecy. Sandoval dismisses this out of hand without any consideration. Prophecy is like looking at a mountain range. You can see the beginning and the end but the valleys of time are not differentiated. The dispensationalist’s view is the most accurate. Christ was crucified at the exact end of the 69th week, and the 70 week is yet to come. The book of Revelation also pinpoints the 70 week with amazing clarity.

    • Otto

      In other words prophecies work best looking in the rear view mirror

      • Joe

        “Prophecies in the rear view mirror may appear more fulfilled than they are.”

    • Giauz Ragnarock

      Anyone ever ask what the point of writing down a prophecy was in your circles? Is God dead or going to forget to tell us or stranded on some remote island? What would a God lose if they said, “That’s an interesting hypothesis, but I don’t think this “prophecy” has anything to do with me”? They would still be there. However, in our lives Gods are just words on pages and screens and in speech. “Prophecy’s” main purpose seems to be to make those words seem significant since there are not any Gods to say, “Yeah, sounds like me…”

    • Joe

      The skeptic’s view just pulls numbers out of a hat and inserts them into nonsense

      You mean like the length of a week or a year?

    • RichardSRussell

      The Bible confirms itself.

      You mean it’s tautologous, right? As in “This is the word of God.” “How do you know?” “Because it says so right here in the word of God!”

      • Ed Senter

        No, tautology would be “the Bible is a fairy tale.” Why? “Because it was just made up!”

        • Joe

          Wouldn’t both be tautologies?

        • Susan

          tautology would b the “the Bible is a fairy tale”.

          As Joe said, they are both tautolgies..

          I don’t begin with the premise that it is made up. It’s just that when I examine it, there is not reason to think it is any less made up than astrology, Elivis is alive, mormonism, islam, the Loch Ness monster etc.

          I don’t assume it MUST be just made up.

          It’s just that no one has ever shown the distinction.

          So, yeah. So far, it falls into the “just made up” category.

          Over to you.

        • Ed Senter

          I have examined the Bible and have concluded that there is no way it was just made up. Sure, you can quibble about how many days it took to create the world, or question the story of the flood. But once you get into the story of Abraham and the promises, and Israel, and all the way through to Christ and the endtimes, and how Paul fully explains it all, there is no way it was made up. All you have to do is take away the judgmental scoffering, and the traditions of men (who make void the word of God), then read it like it was just a piece of literature, it is the most fascinating collection of books ever.

        • Susan

          I have examined the Bible and have concluded that there is not way it is just made up

          I have no reason to believe you’ve read the whole bible. And you’ve never provided any support for its supernatural claims being anything but made up.

          you can quibble about how many days it took create the world

          Quibble about how many days? You can’t be serious.

          or question the story of the flood

          Question the story? It never happened.

          judgemental scoffing

          Not accepting your unsupported claims isn’t scoffing. I’ve tried many times to politely explain why I don’t accept your claims

          the most fascinating collection of books ever

          What collections of books are you comparing it to?

        • Greg G.

          I have examined the Bible and have concluded that there is no way it was just made up.

          What literature of the day have you studied to compare it with?

        • Ed Senter

          They said Homer’s Iliad and the Odyssey were myths until they discovered the archeology to back it up.

        • Greg G.

          They still say they are fictional tales. They just located the existence of the city of Troy.

          Spiderman is said to live in New York. They discovered New York. Does that make you believe Spiderman in non-fiction?

          What literature of the day have you studied to compare the Bible with? Are you trying to agree with me that the Gospel of Mark is based on the Iliad and the Odyssey but don’t want to admit that Mark is fiction?

        • TheNuszAbides

          Not Even Wrong. your critical faculties continue to cry out for improvement.
          “there was a city corresponding on a modest scale to Troy” does not mean “the Iliad isn’t a myth”.
          and how is the Odyssey “backed up”? because it mentions names of geographical features that were later in use as names of geographical features?

        • Ed Senter

          What would it matter if it were myth or historical fact?

        • Greg G.

          You would need another metaphor. But Hermes running across the water in the Iliad seems to be myth.

        • TheNuszAbides

          that would depend on whether a large population of humans were convinced that the text told them and the rest of humanity crucially important and uniquely profound things about how to behave. among other things.

        • Ed Senter

          Why do you care about the rest of humanity? You are going to die and that’s the end of it for you.

        • TheNuszAbides

          you must have me confused with some other atheist. we’re not as identical as you seem desperate to imagine we are.

          just in case you were honestly asking because you actually wanted an answer: i care about the rest of humanity because i’m related to them, and because i’ve been very impressed by the behavior of a few of them, and i think that sort of behavior is worth encouraging and spreading, and because i am disappointed by those who fail to support such behavior because they collectively make it more difficult for us to transcend “nasty, brutish, and short” as a species.

          anyway, the implication that [not believing in any traditional afterlife fantasy] somehow indicates [i have no reason to care] … merely demonstrates your ignorance and shallow imagination – not anything about what i, or anyone else, should or shouldn’t care about, or have some supremely authoritative ‘excuse’ for caring.

        • epeeist

          Why do you care about the rest of humanity?

          And here we have the favourite theist logical fallacy, the false dichotomy. In this case that only the theist cares about humanity and atheists only care about themselves.

          A close friend of mine died in the early hours of Tuesday morning, as an atheist I presumably shouldn’t care about her passing, after all the universe is meaningless and uncaring so why should I not be the same.

          Incidentally she died of bowel cancer, an ailment which if your twat of a god existed it would have created. She too was an atheist and never really recovered from the death of her husband who died of prostate cancer, another ailment for which your twat of a god was responsible for creating.

          No man is an island,
          Entire of itself,
          Every man is a piece of the continent,
          A part of the main.
          If a clod be washed away by the sea,
          Europe is the less.
          As well as if a promontory were.
          As well as if a manor of thy friend’s
          Or of thine own were:
          Any man’s death diminishes me,
          Because I am involved in mankind,
          And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
          It tolls for thee.

        • Michael Neville

          This is one of the biggest LIES (yes, Ed, you LIED) that theists tell about atheists, that we’re self-centered, egotistical, selfish narcissists who don’t care about other people. We do care about people because we’re empathetic, social beings whose very nature requires us to care. Unlike you, who shares your concern for others with concern about what an imaginary critter demands from you, we can focus our caring entirely on others.

          Yes I’m going to die and that’s the end of me. So what? While I’m alive I can help humanity as much as I’m able and willing to do. I don’t worry about the fiction of “pie in the sky when you die” but that’s something entirely different from how I treat people today.

        • epeeist

          This is one of the biggest LIES (yes, Ed, you LIED) that theists tell about atheists, that we’re self-centered, egotistical, selfish narcissists who don’t care about other people.

          And it’s lie from deliberate ignorance, just look at the Baltic and Nordic nations, some of the least religious in the developed world, where provision for those who are less well off is built in to the society. Compare with the US where religiosity is high, inequality is rampant and the poor are denigrated.

        • Ed Senter

          Is it religiosity? or, Is it homogeneity? Get rid of all the “riffraff” and you can do anything…

        • Michael Neville

          Contrary to your belief, other people aren’t “riffraff”. That you consider the possibility of others being “other” and beneath you shows that I’m right when I say you don’t care about people.

          Your life doesn’t have meaning except for what you hope to get when you die. You don’t give a damn about other people. You are one sorry individual and I pity you.

        • Ed Senter

          Dude, you are incapable of an intelligent discussion. Anger has overtaken you.

        • Michael Neville

          Do you think I’m angry? You’re a source of pity, not anger. You reject reality, you hate humanity, and you’re not too fond of your own dumb ass, but you don’t even achieve annoyance, let alone anger. And if I was angry at you there would be no doubt in your mind about my anger.

        • epeeist

          Is it homogeneity? Get rid of all the “riffraff” and you can do anything…

          You think the Baltic and Nordic nations are implementing a “final solution”?

          Or are you just invoking whataboutery because you have no response to the point I made…

        • Ed Senter

          There certainly was no genocide in recent centuries, but given their isolation/geography, small populations, same race, and especially their STATE RELIGIONS, your claim that there is a connection between the “least religious” and “most provisional” is certainly false. Just because their state religions lean toward stoicism rather than the more expressive religions you like to denigrate gives even less credence to your point.

        • epeeist

          There certainly was no genocide in recent centuries

          So no evidence in the past, any evidence that they might just be planning genocide or merely “ethnic cleansing”? Or is it just an unsubstantiated assertion?

          and especially their STATE RELIGIONS

          There is a “state religion” here in England, about 1.6% of the population attend services each week, for many countries in Europe (with or without a state religion) attendance figures for weekly services are 5% or below (this would include Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Iceland, Finland and Estonia). Even in Italy and Spain only a minority are religiously active.

          your claim that there is a connection between the “least religious” and “most provisional” is certainly false.

          It is? It’s a good job I didn’t make that claim then.

          If you had read more comment more carefully you would have realised that what I was pointing out was that there is a positive correlation between religiosity in particular societies and social dysfunction.

        • adam
        • Kodie

          Why wouldn’t you? Do you need a reward to be a decent human being? Your religion makes you a terrible person.

        • Ed Senter

          What do you think you know about my “religion” that makes me a terrible person?

        • adam
        • Susan

          What do you think you know about my “religion” that makes me a terrible person?

          She explained that in her very short post.

          You need a reward to be a decent human being.

          You think there is no reason to care about people unless you get a reward for it from an imaginary being.

          I would ask you to try to read for comprehension but it became obvious long ago that you can’t or won’t.

        • Kodie

          Not only doesn’t he read, he can’t remember that we’ve been over this before a couple other times.

        • Kodie

          For starters, that you don’t care about people.

        • Ed Senter

          I value all life, including people.
          I can’t wait to hear the explanation for your conclusion.

        • Michael Neville

          No you don’t. You care only about your imaginary god. People are secondary to your idolatry for a fictitious critter. You’re a typical Christian apologist, all GOD! GOD! GOD! and not a word about actual people.

        • Ed Senter

          Connect the dots for me. I don’t get it.

        • Michael Neville

          You’ve already said that a life without an afterlife is “wasted”. That tells me you have no interest in the real world, only in Heaven. Since humanity lives in the real world you have no interest in us. The only thing you care about is the sadistic, narcissistic monster you worship.

        • Ed Senter

          Yes, a life without the afterlife is wasted. That means the afterlife gives this life meaning. Therefore, this life is most definitely worth living and is not wasted. So you got that backward.
          I value all life including human life. But I don’t worship creation INSTEAD of the Creator like you apparently do.
          Without the Creator and Sustainer of life, God, there would be no life. So God comes first and foremost. Then all things will follow.

          Is my way of thinking challenge those who think this life is all we get? I suppose so because you must blame someone for things that are absolutely beyond your control.

        • Michael Neville

          If the only thing that gives your life meaning is something unconnected with your life then you must be a sad, miserable, lonely failure. I don’t need an invisible friend to give my life meaning. I get meaning from my family (I’ve been married since 1972 and we’re still in love), my friends, my job (I look forward to going to work every day), my interests and my curiosity about the world and the universe. I pity you for not finding meaning in any of those things.

          While I can blame other people for doing things that affect me but which I have no control over, I realize that, to use the old saying, shit happens. The universe is a non-sentient place which cannot care about anyone. So if shit happens then I just put up with it the best I can. This is called “being a rational adult”, something which you appear to be unfamiliar with.

          BTW, you haven’t given any evidence that the sadistic bully you worship created anything. Since imaginary critters are at a serious disadvantage in the creation business, I know your “God” didn’t create or sustain anything.

        • Greg G.

          Yes, a life without the afterlife is wasted. That means the afterlife gives this life meaning.

          Why go to church if you know the sermon is going to end? It can’t have any meaning.

          Why have sex if it has to end?

          Why have a party if it will end?

          If you know you won’t live forever, then every day becomes precious.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          William Lane Craig dismisses life on earth, the only life we know we have, as “the cramped and narrow foyer leading to the great hall of God’s eternity.”

          Christians like WLC dismiss life here on earth, and yet they want to pretend that they’re the only ones who appreciate it fully.

        • Kodie

          It can be tedious, especially if you have a habit or routine that you can’t readily escape from, like work, obligations like children, or just struggling to stay on the good side of a regular paycheck that allows you to keep a roof over your head without the walls caving in from some rent increase or other emergency, as you know, whenever you see some kind of small windfall ahead, there is something waiting to break that takes it all and leaves you struggling as you were before.

          But the idea that you need some afterlife to make this struggle worth it, I get it. I don’t want to pretend we’re all at freedom to enjoy life. Instead, we appreciate what we can, and sometimes religions point in the right direction. Rather than being nervous and tense all the time, we should enjoy whatever we can if we can’t afford to appreciate more. I think religions tend toward illustrating this idea with unloading our tensions on god with prayer and then appreciating our families and friends, art, music, nature, our relative health, small pleasures, and “trust” that god is taking care of the rest, so our day-to-day toil is released in some sense of joy, no matter what our circumstances.

          So, what you have correct is that religions like Christianity sell their viewpoint to believers, but it is paired with the idea that without this belief, you are totally lost, tense, and pointless. Well! If you come to believe that if you give up your religion, you are without any hope or joy in this one life, you are set up to not only maintain belief, but to tell atheists that they are without hope and they are lying to themselves if they find a finite life meaningful at all. That’s just crazy. Being down and negative, such as one might be if they have no substantial income, a lot of stress about losing even that, and maybe other problems like a sick child and another one on the way, it can just break you if you let it. Religion has marketed the product to fill that gap, and fooled people into believing their religion is the only way to get to feel ok in dire times, and people like Ed Senter would say it’s only death, and you are only fooling yourself. I mean, that is what they want to believe! If you can manufacture in yourself the strength to move forward, to find a temporary point, like enjoying a sunrise, it must lack substance if you die eventually and don’t get an afterlife.

          The idea of Ed Senter just seems so heartless – how dare you enjoy anything and not praise Jesus. How dare you feel good, you must be in denial! How dare you not lie, cheat, steal, rape, and murder people, you must secretly believe there’s a god who will punish you.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Helpful input, thanks.

        • Kodie

          He is caught in a prison. He can’t give up religion because he thinks it is the only way to have any hope. He has been frightened by the rumor that it’s impossible to enjoy living, and pointless to be sociable and generous without being graded by Jesus and sent to the head of the class when you die. Meanwhile, mature adults manage to appreciate life without negotiating with the universe for more. That is such childish thinking! If one kid gets a candy, the first thing another kid will do is protest if he doesn’t also get some candy. Dogs are the same way. Monkeys are the same way. Ed Senter has not only latched onto the idea that heaven is his reward for putting up with this junk called life, but convinced that he should settle for nothing less, and anyone who does is the fool. Like a brainless animal responding to the merest attraction.

        • Ed Senter

          That’s why they invented Viagra (by accident, of course) just so we can squeeze every last drop of preciousness from this life…

        • Greg G.

          They won’t have Viagra in heaven, though. You won’t need it because there won’t be any sex.

        • Ed Senter

          Maybe there will be something much better in heaven. You do know that the pleasure from sex is little more than chemical reactions going on in the brain, eh?

        • adam

          In heaven you wont have a brain to have chemical reactions.
          Your brain will decay back into star dust.

        • Greg G.

          There won’t be any chemical reactions in heaven.

        • Kodie

          How does god enjoy the praise?

        • Greg G.

          Good point. What’s a divine endorphin?

        • Kodie

          I don’t know what you think isn’t valid about chemicals in the brain. You seek your chemical dosage from believing in Jesus. That’s actually why you think there’s no reason to live without Jesus, it’s the chemicals in your brain bringing you pleasure. It works like any drug or activity or relationship that a person would seek out to elicit the feelings they get from their own brain. Some feelings can be toxic, like guilt, anxiety, low self-esteem, etc., and the answer to those feelings isn’t Jesus, it’s just that believing in Jesus is one of the ways some people can replace their toxic feelings of emptiness, loneliness, despair like you do with good chemicals that make them feel good. Some people eat food, some enjoy a hobby, some people never get out of those feelings at all, and you got out of your toxic feelings* with bullshit about Jesus saving you.

          *Often, the religion-pushers (like you) will assume your negative feelings, press on them, use them as an opening. I don’t need your Jesus, I’m fine. Even if I weren’t fine, I am not gullible enough to believe it. If I need help, there are plenty of other ways to trigger the chemicals. It may not be so easy, but you seem to think there’s only one thing that can, and everything else is “death”. That’s your warped religious perspective, sorry you are in a cult!

        • Ed Senter

          Not only does death become you, you lack a sense of humor.

        • Kodie

          You fragile child. I don’t know what joke you might have been telling, but telling me I lack a sense of humor every time you attempt to be funny might be your fault.

          If you don’t have anything relevant to say, I would have to assume that you have nothing to say but to pretend to insult my lack of humor.

        • Kodie

          You need some excuse to care about people; otherwise, you would not. That makes you a terrible person who needs a reward to be a decent human being. You have a warped, weak, and insecure perspective, and project a lot of your own flaws onto other people who manage to cope with reality and find one finite life meaningful enough without falling to pieces that it doesn’t have a sequel. If you cannot find life meaningful without a fake fairy-tale ending, then you are a pathetic useless sick fuck. I mean, you do what you need to do, but don’t pretend you know that other people lead empty lives without the fake incentives you require to just wake up in the morning. Those are some of the lies that your religion feeds you and do not relate to actual lives led by normal people who don’t suffer from your affliction of needing an afterlife to be content, moral, or helpful.

        • Ed Senter

          I value all life. I care about people only to the extent that they not be stupid. I need no excuses.
          I am a Christian, not in order to gain some reward, but because Christianity is the truth.
          Jesus said that I should love my neighbor. He did not say I had to like them.

          As for you, you apparently think that I am a “terrible person” only because you comprehend some violation of your religion which is secular humanism. If you don’t worship God, you must worship man.

        • Michael Neville

          Define “stupid”.

          We don’t worship anyone or anything. Just because your life centers around giving your god blowjobs in hopes that you can continue to blow him after you die doesn’t mean we do anything similar. Secular humanism isn’t a religion, it’s a way to express care for other people, something you obviously know or care nothing about.

        • Ed Senter

          Stupid is contrary to truth.
          Sorry to hear that one of those priests molested you.
          No wonder you are so angry.

        • Michael Neville

          I love how certain Christian apologists “know” about my personal life based on nothing but their own projections and imagination. No, I was not molested by anyone as a child. Nor am I angry at you or your preaching. You’re not a cause of anger but rather of pity. I can’t imagine how miserable life must be for you if the only thing that gives it meaning is what you hope happens after you die.

        • Greg G.

          I have to admit that I was molested by myself as a child… and as a teen… and as an adult.

        • Michael Neville

          The infamous self-abuse. I’ve been known to do that to myself.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I love how certain Christian apologists “know” about my personal life based on nothing but their own projections and imagination. No, I was not molested by anyone as a child. Nor am I angry at you or your preaching.

          Ah, yes, but you are a hedonist who knows that Christ exists but refuses to acknowledge Him because you like all the drugs and orgies.

          Gotcha!

        • Michael Neville

          Now you’ve told on me. See if you get invited to the next baby roast and orgy.

        • MNb

          “Stupid is contrary to truth.”
          Yeah, that explains why your comments totally lack truth.

        • adam
        • Kodie

          If you think there is no point to caring about people if you don’t get to live forever makes you literally a whining demanding piece of shit.

        • Ed Senter

          Why would YOU care since you believe there is no afterlife?

        • Kodie

          That’s the fucking point, dummy. Your mind has been so poisoned not to give a fuck about this world, this life, anyone, unless you get a prize. You’re spoiled by arrogance and selfishness. If you can’t have ice cream, you don’t want to eat your peas!

        • Ed Senter

          You didn’t answer the question.

        • Kodie

          I did, but you are too uptight and dumbened by your religion that it went over your head.

        • MNb

          “If you don’t worship God, you must worship man.”
          A false dilemma that demonstrates that you don’t care about truth at all.

        • Ed Senter

          Oh yeah? What do you value the most? That is what you worship.

        • Michael Neville

          Just because you worship something doesn’t mean anyone else does. I love my wife but I don’t worship her.

        • Ed Senter

          What you value most may or may not have anything to do with anyone else. You could worship yourself…

        • adam

          ” You could worship yourself…”

          Or he could worship no one and nothing.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/55cb05f27a8f417178b44211ade06b1f9d1afc2a0441068e4498bc0d55dc31a4.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Then die, idiot.

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          Hey, if you won’t worship the only true God, you have made your choice and deserve to die.

        • adam

          “you have made your choice and deserve to die”

          Yes, we see how CRUEL your “God” as made you.

        • Greg G.

          I now see that there is no attachment button. 80(

        • Kodie

          Hey, if you want to believe that everyone who doesn’t validate your belief deserves to die, you are a superstitious moron. You can’t provide any evidence except your childish fears, so move on to trying to scare us! God sure sounds like he loves people, thanks god, for sending an inept moron like Ed to teach us how to be cowardly and hate life for you!

        • Ed Senter

          You have apparently accepted death as your fate (why I don’t understand), so what’s the problem?

        • adam

          “You have apparently accepted death as your fate (why I don’t understand), ”

          Uhhh, demonstrate human beings who dont die.
          Otherwise you DO understand.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/62da10177de8c12d9feedf1a0ff3d448ed929feef887a1192640edb3a8a15953.jpg

        • Kodie

          The problem is the wrong way you think of it.

        • Michael Neville

          How very Christian of you to say so. I’m sure you yearn for the days when self-proclaimed or even merely accused atheists were burned at the stake. It is an old tradition:

          …he sacrificed burnt offerings. The LORD smelled the pleasing aroma…. Gen 8:21-22 (NIV)

        • Greg G.

          There you have it. The smell of burning flesh is objectively good.

          But how does God smell? Is it a chemical reaction with molecules?

          PS: I meant, “How does God detect odors,” but the other connotation is an interesting question, too. God’s BO may well be the objectively good aroma of burning flesh.

        • Ed Senter

          An atheist would not be an acceptable sacrifice.
          I am not your judge.

        • Michael Neville

          You personally may not be my judge but there are a large number of your fellow Christians who would happily take on that role. Florida pastor doesn’t get why atheists aren’t registered like sex offenders [LINK].

          Now, many (especially the atheists), may ask “Why do this, what’s the purpose?” Duhhh, Mr. Atheist for the same purpose many States put the names and photos of convicted sex offenders and other ex-felons on the I-Net — to INFORM the public! I mean, in the City of Miramar, Florida, where I live, the population is approx. 109,000. My family and I would sure like to know how many of those 109,000 are ADMITTED atheists! Perhaps we may actually know some. In which case we could begin to witness to them and warn them of the dangers of atheism. Or perhaps they are radical atheists, whose hearts are as hard as Pharaoh’s, in that case, if they are business owners, we would encourage all our Christian friends, as well as the various churches and their congregations NOT to patronize them as we would only be “feeding” Satan.

          Looks like Pastor Stahl is ready and willing to judge us.

        • adam

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/4a9019bd4b36d57112c08c85370a60c13311dd25f63bc2cff30ad27ccde2d1e6.png Hey, if you cant demonstrate that YOUR ‘God’ is anything but IMAGINARY.

        • Kodie

          I don’t think Ed cares about being a good person. He cares about not being a terrible person because then he gets dessert.

        • adam

          For Ed, it really doesnt matter.

          If Ed eats a baby that he just killed and raped, if he stuffs part of that baby down the severed throat of its mother then rapes the mother.

          Jesus FORGIVES.

          Ed can be as terrible as he can IMAGINE, as long as he doesnt blaphemy the Holy Ghost, JESUS WILL HEAL HIS SINS and accept responsibility for his actions.
          THAT is all that Ed is concerned with.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c5445e273728092c84dc583a4e5d5b4272a1e62c42654b930aa001a7c5c86900.png

        • Ed Senter

          If the Bible doesn’t convince you, the demonstration you demand will come when Jesus returns in the clouds and slays most of mankind with the sword from his mouth.
          But hey, you have already accepted death as your final destination…so…

        • adam

          “If the Bible doesn’t convince you,”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fe3b6e666be78e0d82aa897b20a788edbe62268deabf9959680627ca7a98d270.jpg

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5b190739aba2095cf50af0a92d5ea5bad134ba0b9342a2ac4d8cb74b65981dd5.jpg
          ” the demonstration you demand will come when Jesus returns in the clouds and slays most of mankind with the sword from his mouth.”

          That’s just so……. sociopathic, you know.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1510d568b7f8da50a984a3aa4b10f0eb028571cfac8189b5e5a09d18f827096e.jpg

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/eafe4502493500dea4e6452065e545ef602f7a21889d0ad499f2c769484b11c2.gif

          The clouds, really, we’ve been beyond the clouds and guess what? No Jesus. No dome, no nonsense from ignorance sheep herders either.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/2ceec26ad7b22af608c85ee0afb846b3763896e7e500d415999fbad78f93e1c2.jpg
          “But hey, you have already accepted death as your final destination…so…”
          So …… accepting reality.

          As opposed to Believing in MAGIC?
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5b40fd99673a42236edaabecdec5324dc9fe839d9aeb7fa8cfe5ebcd91ad56f3.jpg

        • adam

          ” the demonstration you demand will come when Jesus returns in the clouds
          and slays most of mankind with the sword from his mouth.”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/64635b0f247a44ac0db2c0b6003572c26a0ddfeda0e0e1a2235a1d5f7e4f5017.jpg

          What a bunch of MONSTERS.

        • Greg G.

          Yes, that would convince people who are not gullible. I wonder why God only gives enough evidence to satisfy gullible people?

        • adam
        • Kodie

          You really believe that will happen, that’s sad, you’re waiting for it.

        • adam

          “Hey, if you won’t worship the only true God”

          Hey, how can I know that YOUR “God” is the ‘only true God’?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e902fc8a6aff8e1b1db158762d3e7bdaab1894471fb56d9f89db788237574fc3.png

        • Ed Senter

          If an ass can understand, maybe you are dumber than an ass.

        • adam
        • adam

          If an ass can understand?
          If a talking ass can understand?

          A talking ass being able to understand

          Really?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/04570f3531aa4e675333fdcce29973e95d6ad5b518125333d607badb96b99c03.png

        • adam

          ‘if you won’t worship the only true God, you have made your choice and deserve to die.’

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c34fc7352daf9a5a303932581c1d6fdf6df8670ef3e0dd882dbba5653cdd2368.png

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          Yeah, Jesus loved you so much he died for you, idiot.
          And he also loved you so much that he will not take away your free will by forcing you to love him back.
          So the choice is yours- life or death?

        • Greg G.

          If Jesus will punish you forever for not loving him, then he is not loving.

        • adam

          “Yeah, Jesus loved you so much he died for you, idiot.”

          But your claim is that he is alive, so then he didnt die, and you are lying.

        • Ed Senter

          The resurrection was proof that what he died for was true, stupid.

        • MNb

          The Resurrection did not happen, so what he died for was a lie according to your own argument. Thanks.
          Plus your “comment” does not even address Adam’s comment.

        • Ed Senter

          How do you know “The Resurrection did not happen”?
          Some examine the evidence and conclude He rose. Others may or may not have examined the evidence and conclude its all a lie. Those are called rockheads.
          And, punk adam didn’t comment. He’s a contrarian.

        • MNb

          “How do you know ….”
          Science. Specifically biology, but also chemistry and physics.
          There is no biological, chemical nor physical evidence for dead people coming alive.
          You don’t have a theory how it could happen.
          You only have a Leap of Faith and call it a conclusion.

          “punk adam didn’t comment.”
          Given your christian dishonesty this remark can be rejected without any further do.

        • Ed Senter

          So your answer to the question, “How do you know the Resurrection did not happen?” is “I know (science) that I don’t know”.

          Gee, science can give the same answer to questions like, “What is life?”, “Why is there death?”, “What is the mind?”
          Yet we all know we exist, that existence is finite, and that we think.

          So you think I have no theories?
          How about the existence of other dimensions? After all, what we call matter contains more space than what we see.

        • adam

          “”What is life?”
          Definition of life

          ˈlīvz

          1 a

          :the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body

          ” “Why is there death?””

          Because things cease to maintain themselves through chemistry.

          “What is the mind?”

          Definition of mind

          a

          :the element or complex (see 1complex 1) of elements in an individual that feels, perceives, thinks, wills, and especially reasons

          b

          :the conscious mental events and capabilities in an organism

          c

          :the organized conscious and unconscious adaptive mental activity of an organism

          So easy,

          Well not for you?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/637bfeb32fe76da958e611fbfd841246baeabb7b96c48f9a41144e316ea0e22d.jpg

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          science can give the same answer to questions like, “What is life?”, “Why is there death?”, “What is the mind?”

          I’m a little confused. Are you saying that science doesn’t have the answers but that you do? I can pull answers out of my ass, too, but why are yours any more credible than mine?

        • Bob Jase

          Clearly he is a wise ass.

        • adam

          I am suspicious about the ‘wise’ part.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Aha–there’s my problem.

        • MNb

          No, lying Eddy, my answer is exactly what I wrote, not your dishonest twist.
          On the contrary, science says that existence is finite.

          “How about the existence of other dimensions?”
          That’s not a theory about dead people coming alive.
          Also other dimensions belong to our natural reality. No god involved.

        • Ed Senter

          You obviously know little about science. All science can tell us is what we know. By definition, science says nothing about the unknown. So, what you believe about “science” is nothing but conjecture.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Your overbloated confidence (not to be confused with arrogance) is too funny.
          Science says all kind of things that are not known yet or science could never make any progress.
          Even better – your non-comment has exactly zilch to do with my previous comment.

        • Kodie

          I think you’re the one who sounds like you don’t know anything at all about science. What do you mean “by definition”? Look at all the shit we didn’t used to know and now we know them, and that comes from science. Scientific research, the scientific method. I think you are spinning out now.

        • Greg G.

          By definition, science says nothing about the unknown.

          Ah ha ha ha! Think of all the things we know now that was unknown to our ancestors two centuries ago. How much of that did not come from science? They didn’t even have the telegraph.

        • Ed Senter

          What a shock. You actually agree with me.
          But somehow, I don’t think that was your intent…

        • adam

          “Some examine the evidence and conclude He rose”

          You mean like Superman rises?

          Or Batman Rises?

          There is no ‘evidence’, just a STORY.

        • Kodie

          It’s a fantasy of yours that Jesus is coming any day to get your back here. Doesn’t seem at all likely, so that’s your job to provide the evidence. Your evidence happens to be the bible, which is not evidence that it’s anything more than a story. We know your actual motivation is fear of death, fear of dying someday, but also of meaning no more than a cockroach. Do you have a family or any friends? You make it sound like Jesus is the only friend you have, so that would be devastating to realize he’s imaginary.

        • Ed Senter

          You are like the Jewish scoffers who demanded a sign that Jesus was the Messiah. Jesus said, “The only sign you will get is the sign of Jonah”. Matt 12:38

        • Kodie

          The bible tells a good story sometimes – it blatantly indicates that many people will think this full-of-shit story is full of shit.

        • Kodie

          The resurrection isn’t proof of anything. You are inserting your wishful thinking into the discussion. In the story, to prove what he claimed, a science-fiction character magically resurrected. It is funny that you don’t give a shit about Jesus except that he can make your pathetic life meaningful for you after you die. Other people actually think he was a wise enough leader who had some positive thoughts how to be a good person or live a nice life, and doesn’t matter if the spooky zombie bits are true. You’re like, if the spooky zombie bits aren’t true, I’ll slit my wrists, who cares!!!!

        • Ed Senter

          That is the problem with believers and unbelievers alike.
          Jesus never taught an ethic apart from himself. He said that there was something wrong with the world and the only way to correct it was that he die.
          “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by Me”.

        • adam

          “Jesus never taught an ethic apart from himself. He said that there was
          something wrong with the world and the only way to correct it was that
          he die.”

          OUTRIGHT LIE, Ed

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/89d230f179881be8275da4101e50e5e24d2a0bb95addba201026fbc36fa9a751.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Pulling random text out of context that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said means YOU are the LIAR, punk.

        • adam

          Its not random text, LIAR.

          It’s the actual words of scripture.

        • Greg G.

          Ed calls you “punk”. I think he means it as a term of endearment.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          “Endearment” of a sort. Doesn’t that word have a particular definition in prison?

        • Greg G.

          I never heard the term the two times I went to prison.

          I played basketball on a team that played in a tournament put on in a prison for the inmates. But hearing the gates slam and lock behind you as you entered were still alarming. They sounded better when you were leaving.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I was in a maximum security prison once, for a book club session on my book “Future Hype.” Judging by the dog-eared condition of the copies, those guys read it more thoroughly than any other group I’d discussed it with.

          They weren’t required to wear prison outfits, and it was like being in a meeting at Microsoft. Some guys were type A, but some seemed pretty gentle. And yet they were all lifers.

        • Pofarmer

          Lol. When we got out MO Concealed Carry permits (yeah, I was kind of a gun nut, so sue me) you had to get an FBI check which required you to go in the “Secure area” of the jail to get fingerprinted and something else. Little weird.

        • adam

          I dont understand why he keeps coming on to me.

        • MNb

          That’s obvious to me. Your cartoons hit a sensitive spot. It’s a compliment; Ready Eddy shows they are successfull.

        • Greg G.

          It is a quotation from the Sermon on the Mount, where Matthew has Jesus throwing out random topics. It is nearly impossible to quote a passage of that sermon out of context.

        • Ed Senter

          Tell me, wiz, what does that text have anything to do with what I said and why would it make me a liar?

        • Greg G.

          You said, “Jesus never taught an ethic apart from himself.”

          Adam posted Matthew 5:17 where Jesus is teaching the Law and the Prophets, which are a different ethic.than himself.

          Then there was the rich man who asked what to do to get to heaven. Jesus told him to follow the Law by citing some of the ten commandments before he told him to sell everything and give it to the poor. That’s teaching an ethic apart from himself.

        • Ed Senter

          And Jesus came to FULFILL the Law and the Prophets. He didn’t come to further impose on man something only He could do. He didn’t come to show man how to be saved. He didn’t preach a social gospel. He taught that it was only through Him could anyone be saved. “I am the way, the truth, and the life.”

          When the rich man walked away distressed after Jesus told him to sell everything and follow him, his perplexed disciples, after noting that no man could qualify to be saved, asked, “How can anyone be saved, Lord?” Jesus said, “what is impossible for man is possible for God”. Which we know later to mean salvation came by way of the cross.

        • Greg G.

          You said, “Jesus never taught an ethic apart from himself.”

          Now you are talking theology, not ethic. Jesus went for three chapters in the Sermon on the Mount. It was about ethics and it was not about Jesus.

        • Ed Senter

          I can sum up what you think are “ethics” with one verse- “20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 5:20

          Jesus was not teaching a way of life. He was teaching about hypocrisy and the only way to cure it was Himself.

        • Greg G.

          …and the only way to cure it was Himself.

          Nothing like that is mentioned in the whole Sermon on the Mount. You are reading things into the text that is not there. There’s a mountain full of people and three chapters of text without Jesus ever making that point. Your claim of “Jesus never taught an ethic apart from himself” has been vanquished.

        • Michael Neville

          I can sum up Christian ethics in one quote from Abbot Arnaud Amaric. During the Albigensian Crusade, before the Sack of Bézier in 1209, the good abbot advised a soldier who was worried about killing orthodox Catholics instead of just heretic Cathars: Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. (Kill them. For the Lord knows who are His.). This is the origin of the modern phrase, “Kill them all and let God sort them out.”

        • Otto

          How can a hypocrite cure hypocrisy?

        • Kodie

          Jesus hasn’t cured you of any hypocrisy.

        • adam
        • adam
        • MR

          I keep imagining Jesus calling people fools and idiots. You don’t make a very good case for your religion.

        • Ed Senter

          Oh, He used much worse language.
          Some that come to mind: hypocrite, snakes, vipers, son of the devil, white painted sepulcher, dead men’s bones, thieves, liars, murders, etc.

        • MR

          He’s not a follower of Jesus. I’m just evaluating your actions to your professed standards. You don’t make a very good case for your religion.

        • Greg G.

          I’ve been called worse. I can only dream of being called a “white painted sepulcher”. It would be a blessing to me.

        • adam

          Sorry.
          Where’s the ‘proof’?
          Isnt Jesus DEAD?

          If not let’s see him alive, stupid.

        • adam

          Then where is YOUR Jesus?

          I can tell you, HE’s DEAD.

        • adam

          But the resurrection never happened, Jesus, IF he existed at all is DEAD.

          Besides, if your STORY is true, then:
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7b7c730cdaece89fdcc9f95469528e0e690c448367d4f62be0da4140c7a7521a.jpg

        • adam

          What resurrection, Ed?

          You just claimed Jesus is dead.

        • MNb

          The love of a stalker. I’m better off without it.

        • Michael Neville

          I think I value my wife the most and, as I said, I don’t worship her. I’m fully aware of my all too human foibles and faults so I know I’m not worthy of worship.

          Just because you worship something doesn’t mean I have to worship anything and I don’t. Sorry that reality doesn’t match your delusions again.

        • Greg G.

          That is a weird definition of “worship”.

        • MNb

          Nope. You don’t get to define my terms, arrogant jerk.

          https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

          1. I’m not British and don’t call anyone “worship”.
          2. I don’t offer and/or express any reverence to any divine being or supernatural entitiy.
          3. I don’t perform any form of religious practice with any creed and ritual.
          4. I don’t have any extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem.

          For instance my three heroes of the 20th Century are Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King and Nelson Mandela.
          You can save the effort – I’m very aware of their flaws. No extravagance, just recognizing how positive some of their contributions were.

        • Ed Senter

          WORSHIP – a contraction of WORTH and SHIP
          And it is not your term. I used it first and even gave its meaning for purposes of communication.
          An intelligent person could have figured that out.

        • adam

          “An intelligent person could have figured that out.”

          Well, that explains why you missed it.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0c81b752cdadd1742273087ff1c68da2dafdb33124b0b5c864f32254c185c51c.jpg

        • Greg G.

          WORSHIP – a contraction of WORTH and SHIP
          And it is not your term. I used it first and even gave its meaning for purposes of communication.
          An intelligent person could have figured that out.

          Matthew 4:10 quotes Jesus saying, “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’” which is quoting Deuteronomy 6:13. The word Jesus used for “worship” is:

          προσκυνέω proskynéō, pros-koo-neh’-o; from G4314 and a probable derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, i.e. (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore):—worship.

          If you aren’t going to use Jesus’ meaning, why bother MNb about it? His use is more aligned with the use in Matthew than yours. If you are telling MNb that he is wrong, you are telling Jesus that he was wrong, too.

        • MNb

          I don’t care about your definitions and even less about your caps.
          It’s my term as far as I use them.

          ” I used it first”
          The argument of a toddler.

          “even gave its meaning for purposes of communication”
          Irrelevant for me. Only the meaning I give words are relevant for me. I gave it above. Apologists like you are not trustworthy.

          “An intelligent person could have figured that out.”
          No, because your reaction is utterly unintelligent. An intelligent person – ie not you – would realize that a proper definition has have discriminatory power and must be ambiguous. Your meaning fails in both aspects.
          You wasted your time, except that you managed to increase my distrust in you.

        • adam

          ” I care about people only to the extent that they not be stupid.”

          I care about you, in spite of your stupidity.

        • Kodie

          You can’t keep up with this. You seem to think that, without god, that people have no good reason to be decent. That means you’re a terrible person because you can’t think of any other good reason to be nice, fair, generous. You are a terrible person.

        • adam

          “Why do you care about the rest of humanity?”

          Because I rely on it.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ba6ff62b4fa3a9d09e8e938168bca0a7c17e25df5c4ca0e31fb227ca52d5abef.jpg

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

      Ah, so I see the Senter Way: assume the Bible is true, and then pick and choose facts to have Daniel support the Bible.

      Yeah, I see that if you do it that way, it might work. Problem is, that approach is biased, and honest people don’t think that way.

      • Ed Senter

        Honest people examine the book for what it says at face value. If a prophecy has not yet come to pass, an honest investigator does not report it as a failure, but as something yet to come just like the book instructs.
        Your skeptic approach is not honest. It is more akin to a scoffer.

        • Otto

          Honest people examine the book for what it says at face value.

          “Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.” Luke 21:32-33

          So then if you are honest you will admit this failed.

        • Greg G.

          John 17:20-23 (NRSV)20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

          How can an honest person not say that is the greatest prayer failure of all time? Jesus prayed that all believers would be in so much agreement that the rest of the world would be so impressed that they would believe Jesus came from God. Christians have never been in significant agreement on anything and the world has never been so impressed that everybody believed.

          An honest person does not take propaganda at face value.

        • Kodie

          Does the bible prophecy scoffers? Because who would ever be able to tell you ahead of time that a lot of people would think this book is total bullshit? WHO ON EARTH COULD FORETELL THAT!!!!

        • Ed Senter

          Jesus asked whether or not he will find faith in the land before he returns.
          “26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.” Luke 17:26
          Yeah, most people don’t have a clue. There are scoffers everywhere.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          your approach works only when you assume the Bible correct beforehand. That’s the antithesis of honest.

        • Ed Senter

          No one will know if the Bible is correct UNTIL it comes to pass. That is not assuming anything. That is called faith.

          Daniel was instructed to seal the prophecy for the latter days. What you consider as failed prophecies, are just now beginning to make sense since the Jews have restablished a presence in Jerusalem.

        • Greg G.

          No one will know if the Bible is correct UNTIL it comes to pass. That is not assuming anything. That is called faith.

          But if you do not make that assumption, you have no true premises.

        • Ed Senter

          What exactly do you think is being assumed?
          Daniel had several visions. Most have come to pass. Some are yet to come. Daniel was instructed to seal the book until the endtimes. How is that anything other than taking the book for what it says?

        • Greg G.

          Most Bible prophecies are vague. They are so vague that people see them being fulfilled every year for a couple of thousand years. It is like literary cold readings. You know how cold readings work, right? The psychic says vague things that can be interpreted many different ways and the listener fills in the details.

          Daniel’s so-called predictions were different. They were very specific and detailed, even giving nicknames to identify leaders. Then he gave very specific predictions that failed. But gullible believers changed modes to the “well, it just hasn’t happened, yet” mode.

          Daniel says it was supposed to be hidden until the end times. How does one seal something up to hide it and have it magically appear at the beginning of the end times? It is ridiculous. One has to be deliberately naive to accept that. Daniel wrote it to look like it was old and then presented it as if they were in the end times.

          It is early Messiahnism. Jewish superstition was that David’s throne would last forever because Yahweh said so. Then they were taken over so they assumed their ancestors had pissed Yahweh off somehow so they had to figure out what that was and change their ways, then God would restore David’s throne and kingdom. They imagined that a Messiah would have to come to do that.Every generation hoped it would happen during their lifetime.

          Eventually, some began to read Isaiah 53, Zechariah 3, and other prophets as historical accounts of the Messiah having already come, died, was buried, rose in three days, and was intercessing for sins in heaven, which implied he was resurrected, but would soon come back as the Messiah, A generation later, Mark wrote a fictional story of that Messiah’s life as if it had been in the first century.

          That explains why the early epistles talk about Jesus a lot but never talk about Jesus as an itinerant teacher/preacher. Those early epistles only refer to Jesus in terms of the OT scriptures.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          If Daniel was a book from another religion, you’d laugh at how weak a claim of prophecy it was. If it’s simply the best you’ve got and you’re trying to make the best of it, that’s fine, but don’t imagine that your argument does much to convince anyone who isn’t eager to be convinced.

        • Kodie

          Ed has already told us that he can’t get through a day without self-delusion, and assumes nobody else can either.

          http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2017/09/daniels-end-times-prediction-take-two/#comment-3563130535

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I’m getting a lot of “We’re all biased, so it’s nothing to be ashamed of that I’m biased” lately.

        • TheNuszAbides

          “We’re all biased, so it’s nothing to be ashamed of that I’m biased”

          i prefer only one thin layer of relativism in my reality sandwich, tyvm.

          and it should go without saying that that be nuance-infused relativism. even if it takes a few days to emulsify; i can wait. #FirstWorldProblems

        • Ed Senter

          I take the book at face value. Daniel is told to seal up the book until the endtimes. When you see the Jews reestablishing themselves in Jerusalem, to whom and to the place the prophecy is directed, that should wake some people up- those who have an open mind and can see.

        • Greg G.

          take the book at face value. Daniel is told to seal up the book until the endtimes.

          The book was written to say that so it would seem like they were in the end times when it was “discovered”. Think about it… how does one go about sealing up a book until the endtimes?

        • https://www.jonmorgan.info Jon Morgan

          So I assume you are willing to extend the same courtesy to an honest investigation of the prophecies of Joseph Smith?
          When I read https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Joseph_Smith/Prophet/Alleged_false_prophecies , I see many of the same explanations as I see and used to use for Biblical prophecies.

        • Ed Senter

          I have no problem with honest investigations concerning anything.
          If a Mormon tells me that God is an exalted man and Jesus is not divine, we have a problem right off the bat because that is contrary to the Bible.
          Joseph Smith is more like a date setter than a prophet.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          What is the difference between accepting the bible at face value while disregarding parts of reality don’t support it and accepting another religious text at face value while dismissing parts of the bible that don’t support it?

        • Ed Senter

          What is real? vs. What is true?
          Did God really stop the sun Joshua 10:13? The All-Mighty can do anything, therefore, it probably happened. However, I don’t based my faith on whether or not it is true.

          Is God an exalted man as the Mormons believe?
          Well, who exalted him? If one man can be exalted, therefore can I become God also? The very question exposes the lie. The truth is no man can become God.
          The very foundations of Mormonism are based on a lie. Because there can only be one God-The All Mighty. Not only the Bible says that, reason proves it.
          Therefore, God as an exalted man is no God at all.

        • Michael Neville

          Did God really stop the sun Joshua 10:13? The All-Mighty can do anything, therefore, it probably happened.

          How come the Chinese, the Egyptians, the Babylonians, the Sumerians, the Sanskriti Indians and everyone else who were keeping records at that time didn’t notice such an unusual thing happening? From the way everyone except the Biblical writers treated the Sun stopping, you’d think it didn’t happen. Especially since the Book of Joshua was written several hundred years after the supposed events took place, I really have to doubt that the Sun stopped in the sky. But that’s just me, the guy who thinks the Bible is a collection of myths, fables and lies.

          Not to my surprise, you misunderstand Mormon theology. Their god isn’t an exalted man, he’s a man who became a god. Happens all the time. Hercules became a god, so did Rama.

        • Ed Senter

          An exalted man IS a man who becomes god. So I miss your point.
          Jesus is God who became man. For anyone to become God defeats any idea of a Supreme Being.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          The All-Mighty can do anything, therefore, it probably happened.

          This is a non-sequitur even if I generously grant the existence of your god. Just because he can do something doesn’t indicate that it “probably happened.”

          Of course, no concession needs to be made since the needle hasn’t moved an inch toward this all-mighty diety being real.

          The very foundations of Mormonism are based on a lie.

          No, it contradicts the bible in the same sense that the bible contradicts evident reality. So I must ask again, why is the latter ok, but the former is not?

        • Ed Senter

          You are not using it In the same sense.
          Religions that contradict is not the same as your claim that the Bible contradicts evident reality. The Bible contains the evidence. You just don’t believe it. Plus the Bible questions existence, life, the mind, the seen and the unseen. It elicits hope. Atheists have nothing but death.
          The Mormon god is no God at all. Their god defies reason.

        • Greg G.

          Just because a writing gives false hope of life after death does not mean it is true. A god that can make a rock so big that he cannot lift it also defies reason.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Atheists have nothing but death

          Atheists have reality, which is hard to beat.

          The Mormon god is no God at all. Their god defies reason.

          That’s true. Maybe this gives you some insight into how outsiders see your religion.

        • JustAnotherAtheist2

          It is the exact same sense. The bible takes precedence when it and evident reality (appear to) contradict, and the Book of Mormon takes precedence when it and the bible (appear to) contradict.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          The All-Mighty can do anything, therefore, it probably happened.

          And no evidence required!

          Many of the rest of us prefer the reality-based approach to belief rather than the fantasy-based one.

        • Ed Senter

          Do you want evidence that the Bible is true? Look no further than Jerusalem and the reestablished nation of Israel. The Jews scattered all of the world for 2000 years, yet they have returned to their land. Why has this happened now? Because Daniel’s 70th week is on the horizon.

          I was studying this today: The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah, so the resurrected Jesus returned to the right hand of the Father to await His people, Israel to cry out for help from the Lord. This principle is repeated over and over in the Bible.
          From Hosea: “15 I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.” Hosea 5:15
          “6 Come, and let us return unto the Lord: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.
          2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.” Hosea 6:1,2

          The Bible confirms itself. Two days = 2000 years, then third day = millenium

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/ Bob Seidensticker

          Yet more unfalsifiable claims. You’d laugh at how transparent they were if they came from another religion.

        • Kodie

          Or as he claims to have scoured through the “dregs” of all the other religions. I wonder what Ed would say why people believe in other religions at all. Does Christianity just have the superior marketing campaign? He has mentioned that he finds their promises less satisfying. He doesn’t want reincarnation, so he rejects it, and so on.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Humans can make precise predictions. What a shame that Yahweh can’t.

        • Ed Senter

          If He had to spell it out for you, humans would not need to practice faith. A little mystery requires faith, and “without faith, it is impossible to please God.”

        • adam
        • adam
        • adam
        • adam
        • adam
        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Yes, you’re right. Curiously, we seem to be using similar definitions of “faith.”

          Requiring faith is exactly what you’d do if there were no God. As a result, you’ve got an uphill climb to show that God exists despite Christianity’s need for faith.

          And how is faith compatible with God’s passionate desire to have us know him? He knows that we fry in hell if we don’t believe the right things. Why then put this obstacle in the way?

        • Ed Senter

          Faith is an ACTION, based on BELIEF, sustained by CONFIDENCE.
          Yes, you can not exist without faith. Your only option is the object of your faith. When the object of your faith is God’s word, God promises eternal life.
          I don’t know what you think the “right things” are- it’s probably some caricature you have envisioned.
          All God wants from us is our trust. God created all things and he sustains all things. If you refuse to acknowledge that, all that is left is for you to die.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          you can not exist without faith

          I have no use for faith, but thanks.

          Requiring faith is exactly what you’d do if there were no God.

          When the object of your faith is God’s word, God promises eternal life.

          What good is the promise? You need evidence to back it up.

        • Ed Senter

          This is general knowledge. When you drive a car, you are practicing faith. You are acting on the belief that all of the other drivers will stay on their side of the road.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          First you tell me:

          If He had to spell it out for you, humans would not need to practice faith. A little mystery requires faith, and “without faith, it is impossible to please God.”

          And now it’s:

          When you drive a car, you are practicing faith.

          These dishonest games are why atheists get frustrated discussing with Christians.

        • Susan

          If He had to spell it out for you, humans would not need to practice faith

          So, you’re saying that the predictions are so impressive that they prove the bible.

          You’re also saying that they’re not precise because we need faith.

          And you haven’t explained why “faith” is good except it gets you out of a jam when it’s pointed out that the predictions aren’t impressive.

        • Ed Senter

          1. Prophecy is not a prediction. That is, God doesn’t say, “Jesus will return on Sept. 25, 2020”. He does say that you will know the signs of the times.
          2. Prophecy is all about God being in control and doing what he says he will do.
          3. Prophecy inspires faith. The whole Bible is a record of God dealing with his chosen people, Israel. If God keeps his word to them, I know he will keep his word to me.
          4. To any one with an open mind, prophecy is might impressive.

        • Susan

          He does say that you will know the signs of the times.

          A human wrote that. And the signs are so common that believers since the beginning think they are in the end times. Because someone wrote something down.

          Prophecy is all about God being in control.

          No. It’s about a human writing something down with no burden to support it.

          Prophecy inspires faith.

          It inspired faith in David Koresh’s followers.

          To any one with an open mind, prophecy is might impressive

          You’ve neither shown that your mind is open nor that prophecy is impressive.

        • MR

          The Koresh comment is apropos. Without an objective means to analyze them, his words are equivalent to those of a cult follower.

        • Kodie

          That’s a wild excuse!

        • adam
        • Bob Jase

          I have Jews working in the same building as me, we aren’t in Israel so you’re full of shit.

        • Ed Senter

          Didn’t say they ALL must return; however, the present State of Israel has an open invitation for any Jew to become a citizen.

        • adam
        • adam
        • adam

          “The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah,”

          But you apparently dont understand why.
          The Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah because he DIDNT meet the BASIC CRITERIA.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/62da10177de8c12d9feedf1a0ff3d448ed929feef887a1192640edb3a8a15953.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          You missed the point. The Old Testament PROPHESIED their rejection!

        • Kodie

          That’s just your gullibility. The bible seems to be full of similar tactics. People from the future will be skeptical, that is your “prediction”. That is your amazing prediction. They made up a messiah, some guy (probably a lot of them) decided to be that messiah, and just like if Jesus Fucking Christ himself knocked on your door tomorrow morning, you would think he was a fucking lunatic and call the police. This is a cult in the making, and lots of people would have not gotten on board, just like any other cult you can think of. You, the gullible moron, got swept up thinking this book makes accurate predictions instead of making up stories and random people feeling that it’s up to them to make sure those “predictions” are fulfilled. You know, I used to go out with a guy who one day thought he was the second coming of Jesus. Sadly, he was hospitalized and messed up for quite a while and never the same again. I mean, there you go, Jesus promised to return, and we subdued him with medications and he took a low-rung stockboy job at a major retailer once he was able to start seeking employment again, so no rapture for you.

        • adam

          YOU missed the point.

          The Torah gave the specs for the Messiah, Jesus didnt meet that criteria.

          “Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

          Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.

          Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.

          Biblical verses “referring” to Jesus are mistranslations.

          Jewish belief is based on national revelation.”

          http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

        • Ed Senter

          Are you a Jew, adam?
          The Jews don’t worship God. They worship the Torah/Law. Just like atheists, Jews pick and peck what they like out of the Bible. If you have a hardened heart, you will not see. The OT prophesied their rejection and eventual conversion into recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.

          “9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
          10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.” Isaiah 6:9,10

          “10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.” Zechariah 12:10

        • adam

          “The Jews don’t worship God.”

          Are you a Jew?

          Jews worship the God of Abraham, just like christians and muslims.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/130fd73d4d1fb8d44561582f5da3d25a01a3ce6610d72d62008d60c7e7067449.jpg

          “Just like atheists, Jews pick and peck what they like out of the Bible.”
          You mean just like you do?
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a77e4ac6b76257f40e795a4cf0a260492db2eede843f62cd13f32839211ed306.jpg

          ” The OT prophesied their rejection and eventual conversion into recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.”
          Show us all where this is in the bible.

          Your cherry picked verses dont say that.

          ” If you have a hardened heart, you will not see. ”

          And if YOU pretend, you will ‘believe’ you see, when you dont.

        • Ed Senter

          “10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
          11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
          12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
          13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
          14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
          15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
          16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
          17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
          18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.” Matthew 13

        • adam

          “The Jews don’t worship God.”

          Are you a Jew?

          Jews worship the God of Abraham, just like christians and muslims.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/130fd73d4d1fb8d44561582f5da3d25a01a3ce6610d72d62008d60c7e7067449.jpg

          “Just like atheists, Jews pick and peck what they like out of the Bible.”
          You mean just like you do?
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a77e4ac6b76257f40e795a4cf0a260492db2eede843f62cd13f32839211ed306.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Jews and Muslims put preeminence on the Law.
          Punk adam doesn’t understand because he is dull of mind.

        • adam

          No, it is Paul who ignores the LAW and what Jesus stated on the Law

          Just like YOU:

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/89d230f179881be8275da4101e50e5e24d2a0bb95addba201026fbc36fa9a751.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Fool, neither Paul nor I “ignores” the Law. We revere the Law. We understand that only Jesus could fulfill the Law. No ordinary man can maintain the perfection demands of the Law. Any man who thinks he can perform the righteous acts of the Law denies Christ.
          Therefore, Jews and Muslims and Christians who believe they are righteous by keeping the Law will be judged by the Law and the only verdict can be guilty.

          As for me, Jesus Christ is my mediator. I will not be judged by the Law. I will be deemed innocent because Jesus Christ paid the price of redemption with his life.

        • adam

          “We understand that only Jesus could fulfill the Law.”

          And he was VERY clear what that would look like, and it hasnt happened yet, so YES you are ignoring Jesus and the Law.

          ” I will be deemed innocent because Jesus Christ paid the price of redemption with his life.”

          I thought you said Jesus was still alive?
          If he is not dead, then he hasnt paid the price.

        • Ed Senter

          Only Jesus could keep the Law. So how is that “ignoring Jesus and the Law”?

        • adam

          We’ve covered this.
          I you are too stupid to keep up, please take notes.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/89d230f179881be8275da4101e50e5e24d2a0bb95addba201026fbc36fa9a751.jpg

        • adam
        • Joe

          The Jews scattered all of the world for 2000 years, yet they have returned to their land. Why has this happened now?

          We’ve been over this before. You wouldn’t accept my answer that it was deliberate manufactured this way with prior knowledge of OT scripture.

        • adam

          ” The All-Mighty can do anything, ”

          And yet cannot defeat iron chariots

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d31ab45c82072f5956edbf1fb7c20e2def96839aa94839458da1da64f44d4e37.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Go away child. You are only interested in ridicule and mockery.
          Judges 1:19 is probably a mistranslation or a missing punctuation. See Joshua ch.15 for a parallel view.

        • Michael Neville

          You can’t explain away a Biblical verse and it’s Adam’s fault that you can’t.

        • Ed Senter

          Adam is a little punk with nothing but ridicule and mockery. He offers nothing intelligent.
          So you think the Bible is historically accurate, or is it only accurate on the parts you can berate?

        • Michael Neville

          You don’t like Adam because he raises points that you have difficulty answering. Plus he’s snarky, which you find annoying.

          I sincerely doubt that the Bible is historically accurate except by accident. For instance, most Biblical scholars and all Egyptologists consider Exodus to be fiction, a propaganda piece where a small country says their god is a bigger badass than the gods of the local superpower. There is no historical or archeological evidence that Hebrews were slaves in Egypt or the plagues happened or that over a million people wandered around the Sinai desert for 40 years.

        • Greg G.

          or that over a million people wandered around the Sinai desert for 40 years.

          What about all those leftovers? How do you explain all the sandwiches there?

        • Michael Neville

          Spectrographic analysis indicates those were ham and cheese sandwiches, which are doubly tref. They are probably relics of either Assyrian armies marching to Egypt or Martians surveying Earth for possible colonization.

        • Ed Senter

          Adam does not care, so why waste my time on someone with answers I have absolutely no trouble giving. He is a punk.

          Don’t believe everything on the internet. The evidence may be right in front of you, if you care to open a Bible.

        • Michael Neville

          Unlike most Christians, I’ve read the Bible cover to cover. Since I didn’t read it with god goggles on, I saw it was a collection of myths, fables and propaganda that didn’t say very much I found interesting. It certainly wasn’t evidence that a “god” existed.

          As for Adam, as I said before, he raises points you can’t answer. Whining “he’s a punk” says more about you than it does about him.

        • Ed Senter

          Adam’s caricatures are certainly propaganda for ridicule (and I have answered them), but what on Earth is the Bible propaganda for? Hope for eternity?

        • Kodie

          Yes, exactly. They’re trying to sell you something they don’t have by making you insecure that you don’t have it. Stop projecting your poor outlook on real life on people who are not fooled by the bullshit in the bible.

        • Ed Senter

          I would rather have hope than tragedy.

        • Michael Neville

          We prefer reality over wishful thinking.

        • Ed Senter

          What you call reality, I call tragedy. And hope stands on firmer ground than “wishful thinking”.

        • Michael Neville

          Thanks again for showing your hatred of the real world by calling reality “tragedy”. You’re so blinded by idolatry of your god that you reject everything that doesn’t look, feel or smell like you think your god is like. Considering that your god is purely a figment of your own imagination, you’re living in a private universe, untouched by anyone or anything else. I’m not surprised that you hate other people, they might intrude into Ed’s Universe (pat. pending).

        • Ed Senter

          I said YOUR reality is a tragedy.

        • Michael Neville

          You know nothing about my reality except that I don’t believe in your or any other gods. That’s hardly tragic.

        • adam

          “And hope stands on firmer ground than “wishful thinking”.”

          Hope is wishful thinking.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b12fa1635e121ebbb3409640826d721ba93278771f0064bd133804faa3f01397.png

        • Kodie

          I don’t understand at all. If you can’t live forever, you don’t want to bother living at all? You got sucked up into a cult that made you sick in the head so it can sell you something it doesn’t even have. There is no eternity, get over it.

        • Ed Senter

          Not at all. I cherish every moment of life. But I see no purpose to this life if there is no afterlife. Maybe it is you who are sick in the head for believing this life is all there is?

        • Greg G.

          Then what is the purpose to this life if there is an afterlife? Is it just to weed out people who are not gullible?

        • Ed Senter

          The purpose of this life is to worship God and prepare for eternity.

        • Greg G.

          You can do whatever you want to do. Why waste your life on an imaginary pursuit and worshiping Super Santa Claus?

        • adam

          ” But I see no purpose to this life if there is no afterlife.”

          There is no afterlife, Ed, you are wasting your life.
          Get a hobby.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/d8d3ba2209471f7e1830bdc3d25fb419c6edaa96722eff144dae5f022e64b36a.jpg

        • Michael Neville

          I like that gif.

        • Greg G.

          I cherish every moment of life.

          Six minutes later you wrote:

          What you call reality, I call tragedy. And hope stands on firmer ground than “wishful thinking”.
          http://disq.us/p/1nbb4q2

          You are missing a lot.

        • Ed Senter

          How would you know, wiz?

        • Greg G.

          The time is given in minutes for the first forty-five minutes or so after you post. I checked the time since you posted each reply and used the mathematical operation called subtraction.

        • adam
        • Michael Neville

          Long-haired preachers come out every night
          Try to tell you what’s wrong and what’s right.
          But when asked how ’bout something to eat
          They will answer with voices so sweet
          You will eat, bye and bye,
          In that glorious land above the sky.
          Work and pray, live on hay,
          You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.

          –Joe Hill “The Preacher and the Slave”

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OTMjy_ATbF8

        • Kodie

          You can’t just enjoy the fucking ride? You have been poisoned and made so sick, you’ve been lied to to mess with your head and make you despair, and believe that this is normal for anyone who realizes they don’t live forever. It’s just the power of suggestion, Ed. It’s not normal.

        • Ed Senter

          So your purpose in life is to just be happy?- enjoy the ride? You truly have made yourself the center of the universe. Ha!

        • Kodie

          I didn’t say that. You just find not having eternal life or an ultimate external purpose to your life enough to slit your wrists. It just doesn’t help to be gloomy about it, which you are.

        • Greg G.

          We can all hope we don’t have tragedy, but sometimes tragedy happens and we have no choice.

        • Ed Senter

          Yeah, no tragedy like the tragedy of death, eh?

        • adam

          “Yeah, no tragedy like the tragedy of death, eh?”

          Unless it is merciless unending TORTURE for eternity

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/64635b0f247a44ac0db2c0b6003572c26a0ddfeda0e0e1a2235a1d5f7e4f5017.jpg

        • Kodie

          You”re afraid to be dead, and can’t think of a single reason to be a decent person, or to be happy/satisfied/content about anything, if you will someday be dead forever. The tragedy is that you were made sick and taken advantage of with the promise of a fake cure for the “tragedy” of a finite life. The tragedy is you would rather waste it hoping for whatever you think comes after.

        • Ed Senter

          I can think of a few reasons but I was more interested in your reasons. I will even give you a subject line- “My Life As An Ant”

        • Kodie

          You think life is completely pointless unless you get to live forever. So, that is your idea, not mine.

        • adam
        • adam

          “Adam does not care,”

          adam DOES care,

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/984030700e86062e2deb26f5244a20edfd5d804ca6e1cfaafac40f75368cdb20.png

          “so why waste my time on someone with answers I have absolutely no trouble giving”

          Then GIVE THEM, Ed, quit being such a LYING COWARD.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/681785c573e0e941d7e81f66dd2e305bc7671f7e9b41f0b84b263f098be05d79.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Hey, punk, where have I lied or backed down to you or anyone of the others?
          You present a caricature then tear down a strawman, punk.

          Christianity is not a lifestyle to showoff. Christianity is life itself. Jesus taught himself- “I am the way, the truth and the life”.
          Ponder that for a while, punk.

        • adam

          ” where have I lied”

          “Adam does not care”

          “You present a caricature then tear down a strawman,”
          Where I have done this?

          “Christianity is not a lifestyle to showoff”
          It OBVIOUSLY is for you and others.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/49f0ca4631534acf942b9d64ae61e9a1d6f6d0b47867db781ef1dde60fcdbdb5.jpg

          ” Jesus taught himself- “I am the way, the truth and the life”.”
          And Superman taught himself – Truth, Justice and the American Way.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8a1d48c6ea9ae94abc4986173c1c9496602e6dc86fef2062e9417b9a7f4f213b.jpg

          Ponder that….

        • Ed Senter

          Can’t handle the truth, punk?

        • adam

          I can.

          You can seem to recognize it.

        • Susan

          Adam is a little punk with nothing but ridicule and mockery.

          No. You made the claim that “the All-Mighty can do anything.” and Adam pointed out a verse that showed your claim had a problem.

          He provided so much more than ridicule and mockery. He was completely on point.

          Your defense was that it was probably a mistranslation or a punctuation problem without supporting it.

          Adam is not a little punk. He addressed your point. Little punks handwave, evade and make nonsensical excuses. .

        • Ed Senter

          Adam responds to almost all of my posts with some ridiculous picture which he copied from some hateful website. He does not comment. I just delete his nonsense.

          If you study the Bible, God requires faith. He isn’t going to do everything for you. As I said in another post, the Israelites were a faithless bunch and had to wander 40 years in the desert before they could take the promised land from the interlopers. They eventually took most if not all of the land. Now you can read Judges 1:19 as a mocker and conclude God ain’t almighty and be in error. Or you can rightly divide the word and understand that God is going to get things done in spite of what faithless people fear to do.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I’ve never understood the value of faith, particularly since it screams out that the whole thing is a sham. Shouldn’t God make his existence clear?

        • Greg G.

          Or you can rightly divide the word and understand that God is going to get things done in spite of what faithless people fear to do.

          That is a hand-wavy, evasive, nonsensical excuse.

        • Kodie

          Adam’s memes are pretty well pointed and no theist seems capable of confronting them. If you think they’re silly, it’s only because you are silly.

        • Ed Senter

          I have confronted them over and over and all I get is more caricatured nonsense. You silly mockers can’t even get right what you ridicule.

        • Michael Neville

          You haven’t confronted them, you’ve either ignored them or you’ve whined that “Adam is a punk”.

        • Ed Senter

          You certainly have ignored my refutations.

        • Michael Neville

          Oh, you gave refutations? Sorry, I must have missed them in all your whining about Adam and your Biblical preaching. Or was that preaching supposed to be refutations? If so, they were incompetent in both regards.

        • Kodie

          You confront them by dismissing them without comprehending them. That’s weak shit, Ed.

        • Ed Senter

          I comprehend them as ridicule and mockery. Please prove otherwise.

        • Kodie

          Maybe you don’t know how you sound to other people.

        • adam

          “I have confronted them over and over and all I get is more caricatured nonsense.”

          But you DON’T confront my posts, Ed, you are LYING, you know BEARING FALSE WITNESS, but THAT’s OK with YOU, right?

        • Susan

          Adam responds to almost all of my posts with some ridiculous picture which he copied from some hateful website.

          There was nothing ridiculous or hateful about it. You made an erroneous claim based on a book written by humans and Adam pointed out that your “omnipotent” deity was flummoxed by iron chariots. In the very book you rely on.

          You had no answer to that of any substance. “Mistranslation” or “punctuation error”. Because you said so. Meh.

          The rest of your comment is just proselytizing. There is no reason to believe your book is any more relevant than the Koran, the Book of Mormon or Sylvia Browne.

        • Ed Senter

          If you think my comment was “proselytizing” then you don’t know squat.
          I don’t give a care what you believe.
          If you are happy with death and believe that is reality, so be it.

        • Michael Neville

          Ed, all you’ve done since you started posting on this blog is proselytizing. You’re trying to give us “the good news” about your Jesus. We get Christian missionaries like you all the time here. Why do you think we’re able to answer all your arguments? Years of practice discussing Christianity with folks like you have honed our skills, especially since you’re not bringing anything new to the table.

        • Ed Senter

          Beside the fact that I am not trying to “convert” anyone, your only skill is ridicule and mockery, dude.

        • Michael Neville

          Your inept preaching is so pathetic that ridicule and mockery is the most reasonable response.

        • Susan

          If you think my comment was proselytizing, then you don’t know squat.

          Religious assertions for which you provide no support. That’s proselytizing. That’s all you’ve done.

          If you are happy with death

          You don’t mind death a bit unless it happens to you.

          Being unhappy with death doesn’t make your wishful thinking real.

        • Ed Senter

          The only assertion I have made is “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” and the support is the Bible.
          I am not seeking converts and I don’t even care If you believe it or not.
          And hope stands on firmer ground than “wishful thinking”.

        • Susan

          The only assertion I have made is “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” and the support is the Bible.

          Yeah. Those are pretty big assertions and you haven’t supported them. Also, you’ve made countless other unsupported claims but let’s focus on those two.

          The claim is “the bible”.

          So…. (whistle, whistle)

          I am not seeking converts and I don’t even care if you believe it or not

          Then, what are you doing here?

          And hope stands on firmer ground than “wishful thinking”.

          All you’ve provided is whistling in the dark.

          If it stands on firmer ground, (’cause your late night TV preacher said it), then show it.

          If you claim firm ground, then show it.

        • adam

          “If you think my comment was “proselytizing” then you don’t know squat.”

          Definition of squat

          1 a

          :the act of squatting

          We know squat, apparently you do not.

          “I don’t give a care what you believe.”

          Why would you? You dont if what you believe is true or not.

          “If you are happy with death and believe that is reality, so be it.”

          Just demonstrate that death is not a reality, instead of proselytizing.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1e68e84484a8bd329d1117850d1fe42582694969f00836ecc24a313ad7ff63d9.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          You will get your demonstration in due time. Jesus Christ will slay 5/6 of the world’s population on the plains of Megiddo. After the millennial reign of Christ and the final battle, every being that has ever lived will be resurrected and go before the White Throne to be judged.

        • adam

          “You will get your demonstration in due time.”

          How so?
          Jesus said those he spoke to, would see end times.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6a5b53f4489e73d718f1bf8170a6e17f5961429392c56d208f90d3671f5a3179.png

          If Jesus cant even get that right how is he going to commit MASS GENOCIDE?

          “After the millennial reign of Christ and the final battle, every being
          that has ever lived will be resurrected and go before the White Throne
          to be judged.”

          And Santa is going to bring you a lump of coal.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/474299198fa468cb412454dc5c43a24444b671b390af392fb7d2e088f0031e1d.jpg

          ” Jesus Christ will slay 5/6 of the world’s population on the plains of Megiddo.”

          This is the work of a MONSTER like Hitler, and YOU WORSHIP this guy?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cdf1945c329723ddbb7c03a5aa7c5a3ef1bae3c5f93caabe7aed79f438227c78.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          A son of the devil will be in denial because he knows his time is short…

        • adam
        • adam

          Oh, is this another thinly veiled threat from your Magical Sky Daddy?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/102697e7faecdc67306ad919c76a1e01e698f44fbed89fa96dcc85012ac3ce5f.jpg

        • Kodie

          Looks like you’re spinning now.

        • adam

          It ALWAYS boils down to idle threats and celebration of the destruction of the planet and billions of innocent lives.

          And YOU call that LOVE.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3e1fd5b21d17ffb7174c2b5d62ef3fbf92a65e14569aa1561044dc9171c7eb99.jpg

        • MNb

          “had to wander 40 years in the desert before they could take the promised land from the interlopers.”
          Yeah – that amazing collection you call the Bible shows that they were amazingly bad at navigation. It took Alexander the Great just ten years to travel from the Middle East to India and back. Healthy people can walk from Alexandria to Gaza in two weeks.

          “God is going to get things done”
          and doesn’t shy away from genocide – doesn’t respect the rights of the people who already lived there. Like nazis for instance.
          Your god is amazingly evil according to that amazing collection of books of yours.

        • Ed Senter

          No, they were on the borders of the Promise Land in a matter of days. God did not allow them to enter because of their lack of faith. You do know the meaning of ‘wander’, don’t you?
          What do you know about “evil”? “We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in high places.”

        • Greg G.

          The front of the group should have arrived before the back end left Egypt.

        • Ed Senter

          May be, may be not…

        • MNb

          Ah yeah, I forgot the core principle of christianity: if something good happens, praise the Lord. If something evil happens, blame Homo Sapiens. No principle shows better how christianity sucks than that one.
          I know that quite a few christians think that genocide is evil unless commanded by their god, an immaterial version of Hitler. Are you one of them?

        • Ed Senter

          Do you know the Bible story, or are you just being obstinate?
          Since I believe God and an afterlife, I leave things like death and dying in the hands of the Lord. I am powerless in that regard.

        • adam

          “Do you know the Bible story”

          Yes, WE know its a STORY, but people like you apparently dont.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b137dcd866bfea35a9330971547f96e3205fbe8a9ebbbc117eea0df080409124.jpg

        • MNb

          Thanks for not answering my question. It confirms that you are not trustworthy.
          Your comment has nothing to do with what I wrote, so shrug.

        • adam

          “No, they were on the borders of the Promise Land in a matter of days.”

          And Superman has X-ray vision

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          The opposite of reason is NOT faith, punk.
          The truth is, you can not exercise faith WITHOUT reason because faith begins with an operation of the mind which acts on some believe sustained by confidence that by which what is believed will become fact.

        • adam

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b12fa1635e121ebbb3409640826d721ba93278771f0064bd133804faa3f01397.png “The opposite of reason is NOT faith”

          Indeed it is

          “because faith begins with an operation of the mind which acts on some believe sustained by confidence ”

          Nope, read your bible again.

          “which acts on some believe hope sustained by confidence that by which what is believed will become fact.”

          FTFY

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/0618711d45daa8dbd9279d4fd56aa468905735520adeaae1b71037ffa900be28.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          What is hope but a “belief sustained by confidence”?
          The opposite of faith is fact. Although circumstance may say otherwise, once what is hope for becomes fact, it is no longer faith.

          For instance, God said, “I am the Lord that healeth thee”.
          Now faith says, act on God’s promise of healing (belief sustained by the confidence that God does what He says).
          Although I am sick (the circumstance) says otherwise, I keep faithing.
          Once I become well (what I had hoped for becomes fact), I am no longer faithing.

          What the folks at Victory Tabernacle should have said was, “If ur faith is big enough, circumstances dnt count”.

          So once again, you are a punk.

        • adam

          “What is hope but a “belief sustained by confidence”?”

          Not very good with words huh, Ed.
          Must be why you still claim to be a christian

          Definition of confidence

          1 a

          :a feeling or consciousness of one’s powers or of reliance on one’s circumstances

          Wishful thinking is exactly what Faith is:

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/776ee9cb44b1845e5a62ce2f892baf0c5ddae40995c8cc0fc5fbc5a113ae2682.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          idiot,
          You go from “reason is the opposite of faith” to “faith is not A reason”. What a punk.

          Wishful thinking is thinking about something you want. It takes no brain power to desire something.
          In order to form a belief, however, one must exercise the mind, that is, reason must form the belief.
          Of course, faith is not based on proof. Faith is based on the belief. Once the belief becomes fact, it is no longer faith.
          Properly understood, faith is a verb and not a noun.
          Biblical faith is an action based on belief in the confidence of God’s word.

        • adam

          “Wishful thinking is thinking about something you want. It takes no brain power to desire something.”

          Exactly, the fruit of religion, the wish for eternal life.

        • Ed Senter

          The topic was faith, liar.

        • Kodie

          You wish for eternal life because you can’t cope (and you think nobody else can cope) with the reality that someday you’re going to die, and your life doesn’t have any ultimate purpose. Religions…. theology doesn’t offer you anything real. It’s marketing. They know just how to appeal to your sense of insignificance and despair in a cold unintentional universe, and tell you a bedtime story, so you can sleep without the nightmares. You’re here telling us those stories are your reasons, they give you confidence to have faith in something you have no evidence for. Faith is based on want, and religion/theology is based on exploiting fear.

        • Ed Senter

          Fool, the evidence is the BIBLE.
          You can make up all the shit you want about not believing the Bible, but the bottom line is YOU DON’T BELIEVE.
          I, however, do believe. I don’t believe because I was “indoctrinated” or “Ignorant”. I believe because I have studied everything I can get my hands on and have formed a belief that what the Bible says is true.
          I understand. I don’t understand why you don’t.

        • adam
        • adam
        • Kodie

          The bible isn’t evidence for anything. You believe because you’re scared and miserable without it.

        • Ed Senter

          Wrong. There was a time when I didn’t care one way or the other and I was perfectly happy.
          Then one day I was flipping through the channels and truth stared me right in the face. I made my choice.

        • Kodie

          That’s called an existential crisis, dummy.

        • Michael Neville

          We don’t understand because the Bible is an obvious, undeniable, glaringly blatant collection of myths, fables and lies. We fail to understand how someone who claims to “have studied everything I can get my hands on” couldn’t help but reach that evident conclusion. Even when one accepts things like the creations (there are two of them), the Noachian Flood and Exodus as metaphors, major cornerstones of Christianity like the Resurrection are so highly improbable that it strains imagination that any reasonable person looking at them critically would think they’re anything but myths and fables. The lies are bits like the zombies described in Matt 27:52-53 (NIV):

          and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.They came out of the tombs after Jesus’ resurrection and went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

        • Ed Senter

          What turned me around was when I learned Jesus was not some turn the other cheek hippie, and instead, He came to die. Everything came together and the entire Bible started to make sense. It wasn’t some legalistic gibberish about how to live right. The book was a story about life itself revealing the truth about why we are here and our purpose. As a wise man once said, “if I didn’t worship God, I would worship the guy who wrote the Bible.”
          The only explanation as to why I understand and you don’t is the parable of the sower.

        • Michael Neville

          So you’re the seed that fell on stupid ground.

        • adam

          ” It takes no brain power to desire something.”

          Which you demonstrate constantly.

          “In order to form a belief, however, one must exercise the mind”

          Nope, most ‘belief’ come from indoctrination, the process of NOT THINKING.

          “reason must form the belief.”

          Indoctrination is a reason people form beliefs, IGNORANCE is the most common reason.

          “Once the belief becomes fact, it is no longer faith.”

          Which is WHY religion NEEDS FAITH.

          “Biblical faith is an action based on belief in the confidence of God’s word.”

          And God’s words condone the OWNERSHIP of human beings AS PROPERTY.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/e389054ce6c972f909aee2e1015b3f98cdad7f4e59ed68593237da544ca0616c.jpg

          AGAIN, not what the bible actually states, but DISHONESTY is what allows you to keep having Faith

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b12fa1635e121ebbb3409640826d721ba93278771f0064bd133804faa3f01397.png

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t know where the part about “DISHONESTY” comes in, but let’s see if you are consistent:
          Do you believe in evolution?
          Were you indoctrinated to believe in evolution or do you believe evolution out of ignorance? (Because I am quite sure you have not read every single journal article or have done any studies on the subject yourself.)
          Which is WHY evolution NEEDS FAITH!

        • adam

          “Do you believe in evolution?”

          Yes, of course, who is ignorant enough not to?

          “Which is WHY evolution NEEDS FAITH!”

          No, facts dont need FAITH, religion REQUIRES FAITH because it CAN NOT demonstrate the facts necessary.

          This is your dishonesty.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a720e446c270c1510395a5455fc767e1839c52143c5dcd4fe607f7791c5a4884.jpg

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c6338d1c2d9058da691571a6688df25eccabd8e89b7749c14069533aa53e08b8.jpg

        • Greg G.

          Where reason ends, faith begins.

        • Ed Senter

          No, reason and faith are conjoined. Faith is not intuition. Where reason ends, intuition begins.

        • Greg G.

          Then show a logical proof with true premises that shows there is a god. You can’t there because reason doesn’t go there. That’s what faith does. It can take you anywhere, even if the place doesn’t actually exist. Faith is indistinguishable from imagination. Faith is not reason and reason is not faith.

        • Kodie

          You cannot exercise faith without wishful thinking. I am not going to say that it isn’t using a sense of reason, as I think most theists don’t operate on pure faith, but operate on a convincing bullshit show that lures your sense of reason to someplace unreasonable. You feel like life has to have a meaning or else you should kill yourself, so it’s vitally important to you that there’s a Jesus, and you will draw any fucking blurry-ass, jagged, crooked line between what you want, and whatever that is, i.e. eternal life and Jesus’s resurrection being real, so that your sense of reason is adjusted to whatever will make that maintain veracity.

        • Ed Senter

          You want to play word games. Here is the meaning of biblical faith:
          1. I wish God exists.
          2. I believe God exists because I have studied the Bible.
          3. I faith by making Jesus Lord.

        • Greg G.

          1. You wish God exists.
          2. You made up an excuse to believe God exists.
          3. You faith because you cannot validly reason your wish.

        • Michael Neville

          You’re starting with wishful thinking, which is what Kodie said was part of faith. So you wish that Jesus exists, then you read the propaganda which talks about Jesus and you have confirmation (does the term “confirmation bias” mean anything to you?). So you proclaim your wishful thinking is the result of reason.

          The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool. –Richard Feynman Cargo Cult Science

        • Kodie

          1. I wish god exists.
          2. I see no evidence, just fiction.
          3. I cannot pretend as good as you!!! Stop hassling me!

        • Ed Senter

          Most of the atheist’s arguments are semantical but they are not honest enough to admit it.
          The “evidence” is hiding in plane sight.
          You can’t faith? So be it.

        • Kodie

          I can’t begin to make myself as sick and stupid as you are to start warming myself with the delusional flames of heaven like you do.

        • MNb

          God –> Bible –> God –> Bible –> God –> Bible –> God ….

          The core of your argument is “I wish”.
          Well, I wish to win a gold medal on the 100 m running when I’m 60 – without doing any preparation. One makes as much as sense as the other.

        • Ed Senter

          You don’t know the argument because you are too busy making semantical errors, rockhead.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          I just summarized your non-argument, Ready Eddy.
          Plus you obviously don’t understand what semantics means. I may have erred, but not regarding semantics, because my summary has nothing to do with it.

        • Ed Senter

          ‘Faith is not blind’ does not = “I wish”
          So, either you don’t understand the meaning of words or the argument, or you are just intellectually dishonest.

        • adam
        • MNb

          Faith cannot be anything but blind, dummy. It is or is not confirmed by reason or evidence. But if faith used reason and/or evidence it would cease to be faith (Kierkegaard)
          Indeed “faith” does not mean “I wish”. In your case it does. You just wrote it yourself, just above. In “premisse” 1.

          “either you don’t understand the meaning of words.”
          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Yeah, because the christian Ready Eddy, who as a good christian thinks himself to be a sinner, hence imperfect, hence tempted to lie, impossibly can be expected to understand words wrongly.
          You excellently show the main failure of christianity: it preaches humility and produces arrogance.

        • Ed Senter

          ‘1.’ is not a “premise”, rockhead.
          1. 2., and 3. illustrate the difference in the three words.

          Faith is not blind because it is based on belief. Belief can only be formed by reason. You may not agree with the reasons for the belief, nevertheless, one must use reason to form the belief. Reason does not confirm faith. Fact confirms faith. Thereby, faith and reason are compatible.

          You confuse my confidence for arrogance, rockhead.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          Faith is blind exactly because it’s based on belief.
          Belief can or cannot be confirmed by reason.
          Try to believe and have faith in square circles.
          Belief by definition does not have reasons.
          That’s what Kierkegaard meant with Leap of Faith.
          You are arguing against a devout and very intelligent christian.

          “Thereby, faith and reason are compatible.”
          Faith and reason can be compatible. I never denied that.
          Often it isn’t.
          Reason (specifically science) says that dead people never come alive again.
          Your faith says it happened once at least (the Resurrection).
          That’s not compatible. You have to reject either reason or faith in this specific case.
          Frankly I don’t have any problem if you prefer to reject reason here. I have a problem – well, sort of, because I think it convenient if you confirm your dishonesty and hypocrisy plus it’s entertaining – if you deny that problem.

        • Ed Senter

          The best I can say about Kierkegaard is that he was a mixed up Lutheran stuck in the Age of Enlightenment. I don’t base my faith on whether or not Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. Some things are beyond human reason. If you want to play that semantical game called “blind faith”, so be it. I am not a mystic.
          Nevertheless, if I have a goal, let it be clarity. So far we have been playing semantics.
          I think my explanation of the terms I use above is pretty clear.
          I base my faith, as any Christian should, on the Resurrection. That is the defining pivotal point of Christianity. If Christ be not risen, everything else is crap.
          Science has not yet discovered the mechanism of resurrection, neither has it negated it. The only thing we know is that we don’t know. However, we do have eye witness reports that Jesus indeed rose from the dead. If a trial were held, It can be shown beyond reasonable doubt that Christ rose. That is not “blind” or fantasy. That is real.
          I don’t have “faith” that Christ rose from the dead because I have determined and agree with my mind (reason) that the Resurrection is a fact. Because Christ rose, I faith that one day I will rise from the dead unto eternal life. That is Biblical faith in God’s word.

        • MNb

          What you can say or not can say about Kierkegaard is irrelevant, given your dishonesty.
          I don’t play a semantical game. I have given a clear, unambiguous definition.

          “if I have a goal, let it be clarity.”
          Then you better never become a striker (football – what Americans call soccer) or basketball player. You miss that goal widely with your attempts to define.

          “Science has not yet discovered the mechanism of resurrection, neither has it negated it.”
          Science has negated it as much ias it has negated that you will fly away from a roof when flapping with your arms either.

        • Ed Senter

          What you have done is equate Kierkegaard’s “leap of faith” with “blind faith” and the result is that you are blind.
          Kierkegaard sought to explain Christian belief beyond the semantic game being played at the time, just like you are doing. The “leap of faith” was not coined by Kierkegaard, but was a derogatory term used by his detractors.
          Definitions are a tool by which we seek to clarify communication. Since your apparent goal is only your emotionally driven need to ridicule and mock, our communication is pretty limited.

        • MNb

          Yeah, Ready Eddy with his overbloated confidence that nobody should confuse with arrogance, despite being exactly the same, knows as sure that the Resurrection is a fact that he understands Kierkegaard better than for instance

          http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/phl201/modules/Philosophers/Kierkegaard/kierkegaard_individuality.html

        • Kodie

          Your belief is based on fear. You think your god wants you so bad that you are afraid to piss him off by noticing that some of the aspects of god in the bible are immoral and ugly. Your humility is only to god, and your arrogance to others because you think you are so much more important because you’re going to heaven, because for some reason, you think that is the only thing that makes you more important than a cockroach. I asked you how, you still didn’t say.

        • Ed Senter

          I didn’t see a ‘how’ question. You just blurted an uninformed opinion.
          My faith is based on FACT- THE RESURRECTION.
          What is immoral and ugly is you, as well as a lot of people, refuse to trust God. You have an emotionally driven need to ridicule and mock that which you do not understand.

        • Kodie

          I asked you something like 3 different times now. Your faith is based on fear that you might say something honest.

        • Susan

          FACT THE RESURRECTION

          Putting it in block caps doesn’t make it a fact, Ed.

          You have to support your claim that it’s a fact.

          In all of your hundreds of comments, you never do this. You just make bare assertions.

        • MR

          Without support it kind of lines right up there with FACT – SANTA CLAUS DELIVERS PRESENTS.

        • Greg G.

          FACT – THE EASTER BUNNY HIDES EGGS.

          Wow, that’s kinda fun.

        • Susan

          Wow, that’s kind of fun.

          FACT. ALL VERSIONS OF YAHWEHJESUS ARE INVENTIONS OF POO-POO HEADS

          Oh, yeah. I see what you mean. It saves me from having to do any work.

          And such gravitas (a word sophistimicated christians like to use when we deal with “strawmen” like Ed because they’re above it)

          It’s invigorating.

          FACT- I”M SUPER SMART AND A FANTASTIC DANCER

          Man, I FEEL so RIGHT about EVERYTHING.

        • Kodie

          FACT I WAS IN THE 3RD SEASON OF BREAKING BAD AND I’M ONE OF GEORGE CLOONEY’S TWINS.

        • Greg G.

          FACT – THIS TIME NEXT YEAR WE WILL BE RICH, IN SHAPE, AND TAN.

        • Susan

          WE WilLL BE RICH

          AND HANGING OUT ON A BEACH ON ANY PART OF THE PLANET THAT WE LIKE

          BECAUSE FACT!: WE WILL BE FLUENT IN 12 LANGUAGES AND THE NATIVES WILL ADORE US AND PAY US HANDSOMELY JUST FOR BEING US!

        • Ed Senter

          I have determined the Resurrection is true based on the eye witness testimony, the historical evidence, and the shear veracity of the Bible itself. It is all forensic.
          I have stated that over and over. If all you will accept for evidence is “scientific”, that makes you intellectually dishonest because you accept plenty of things without any scientific basis whatsoever.
          Two people can sit on a jury and examine the exact same evidence and come to two totally different conclusions. Doesn’t make them bad people, deluded or subject of ridicule. It is just that one believes its true and the other doesn’t.

        • Susan

          I have determined the Resurrection is true based on the eye witness testimony

          What eyewitness testimony do you have? What standards do you apply to it that makes it stand out compared to eye witness testimony of alien abductions?

          the historical evidence

          What methodology do historians use for any historical claim that your determination meets?

          and the shear veracity of the Bible

          Which you have’t demonstrated.

          I have stated that over and over.

          We all know that. But you haven’t shown it. Nor explained your method no matter how many times you’ve been asked to do so.

          Stop stating it over and over and show it.

          that makes you intellectually dishonest

          Nope.

          Some idiot on the internet who’s demonstrated no knowledge of even a single version of the bible he claims is true because “It is so because I say so.” has convinced no one.

          You are centuries behind your own theologians.

          Most christians are.

          The theologians are there to proceed from unsupported premises.

          And to pretend there’s an “intellectual” answer when people don’t believe their premises are supported by anything.

          Castles on clouds.

          Not because they provide one. But because they say there is one.

          If there were one, they could actually show it.

        • Ed Senter

          All any Christian has is the written word contained in the Bible along with the power of the Holy Spirit.
          If you don’t have the desire to learn, nothing is likely to convince you.
          If you do not seek, you will not find.
          BTW, all you have given me are excuses.

        • Susan

          All any Christian has is the written word contained in the Bible

          Yep.

          along with the power of the Holy Spirit.

          Nope.

          If you don’t have the desire to learn, nothing is likely to convince you.

          You claimed historical evidence and ignored the historical method.

          You referred to the “sheer veracity of the Bible” without demonstrating its veracity in the least.

          All you have are bare assertions. You have no business trying to “teach” anybody anything.

          .

        • Ed Senter

          Who said I was a teacher? Depending on your background, it may take years to understand the Bible since there are so many false teachers out there.
          If you have any interest see drgenescott.com , pastormelissascott.com , lesfeldick.com
          They are pretty good teachers.

        • Greg G.

          Those are the false teachers you should avoid.

        • Ed Senter

          Why?

        • Greg G.

          You take the fairy tales in Genesis seriously. Nobody should pay attention to teachers that have students defending fairy tales as history. You and a guy named Ray Martinez who posted incessantly on talk.origins prove that Scott was an idiot.

        • Ed Senter

          I am not a creationist and neither is Dr. Gene Scott.

        • Susan

          Who said I was a teacher?

          I didn’t. I said you have done nothing but make bare assertions and when asked to support them, you just make more bare assertions.

          And that you blame other people for being unwilling to learn when they exaplain how ludicrous that approach is.

          If you have any interest see… They are pretty good teachers.

          Do they justify the claim that Yahwehjesus exists and that it inspired any of the bibles? Or do they just assume that?

          If they’re good teachers, they would have taught you not to make unsupported claims.

        • Ed Senter

          I am not writing a dissertation on a blog comment section. And I have no inclination to convince pseudo intellectual academicians.
          Dr. Gene Scott has done a most excellent proof of the Resurrection and you can read it on his website.
          How does any one “prove” God exists? Augustine already did an excellent treatise. I have just used common sense and logic/reason.
          I can explain the Bible, but I don’t know everything- nobody knows everything.

          Furthermore, it is nobody’s job to convince you of anything. First, you must be a learner before you can be taught.

        • Susan

          I am not writing a dissertaion on a blog comment section.

          I didn’t ask you to. I asked you to do something other than make bare assertions. You’ve written enough text for a dissertation but all you’ve done is make bare assertions.

          it is nobody’s job to convince you of anything.

          If you make a claim, it’s your burden to support it. This is basic stuff.

          you must be a learner before you can be taught.

          How would you know if I’m a learner or not if you only have bare assertions?

          =====

          Edit: 1 hour later. Fixed typo. (test to text)

        • Greg G.

          She put scare quotes around “teach”. That is not calling you a “teacher”.

        • Ed Senter

          She keeps wanting to be “convinced”, but first she must be a “learner” so she can be “taught”.

        • Greg G.

          If you do not seek, you will not find.

          If you seek using the light of gullibility, anything you find will look like truth, no matter how false it is.

        • Ed Senter

          Right back at you, atheist.

        • MNb

          Yeah, you are very good at excuses for not seeking and learning.

        • Ed Senter

          That is what a juvenile delinquent would say…

        • Greg G.

          That’s what deliquents are told repeatedly. Add that on to your count.

        • MNb

          A juvenile delinquent who’s smarter than you.

        • adam
        • epeeist

          I have determined the Resurrection is true based on the eye witness testimony

          But it isn’t “eye witness” is it Ed? What you have is hearsay, and as you have intimated in this post the default position is to reject hearsay evidence except in very specific circumstances.

        • Ed Senter

          If this was a capital murder case with your life on the line, you are arguing the prosecution’s case. So stupid…

        • epeeist

          If this was a capital murder case with your life on the line, you are arguing the prosecution’s case.

          So in order to convict someone you would allow uncorroborated hearsay in court. I pity any person who is standing trial with you on the jury.

          But of course this is complete whataboutery in order to deflect from the fact that all you have for the so called resurrection is uncorroborated hearsay.

        • Ed Senter

          You have it backwards. The prosecution can object to any evidence offered in defense. What you are presenting are objections to your evidence in defense.
          Your life is on the line (for real) and Jesus Christ is your only witness for your defense.
          If my life was on the line, I would want every scintilla of evidence considered in order to save my life.

        • epeeist

          You have it backwards. The prosecution can object to any evidence offered in defense.

          Actually both sides can object to any evidence that is presented. One objection they can make is that what is being presented is hearsay and therefore not admissible as evidence except in specific circumstances.

          Of course what is really on the line here is the fact that having agreed that hearsay is not generally admissible as evidence you are now having to back track faster than Wile E. Coyote stepping off a cliff because all you have in the bible is hearsay.

        • Ed Senter

          My mistake was assuming you were honest enough to understand the analogy.

        • epeeist

          My mistake was assuming you were honest enough to understand the analogy.

          Oh I understood the analogy, poor as it was.

          My mistake was assuming that you were honest enough to accept that given hearsay is only acceptable in certain circumstances then the bible cannot be used as a source of evidence given that it consists of nothing more than hearsay.

        • Ed Senter

          What is on trial here is whether or not there is an afterlife. What is truly bizarre is that atheists are doing everything they can to exclude any and all evidence that supports an afterlife. That is just beyond reason.

        • MNb

          My dear stupid christian, several years ago my father has been killed by someone he and I knew personally. I brought him in myself.
          Still I wouldn’t have him convicted on evidence as meager as yours for the Resurrection.
          Because unlike a selfish christian like you I respect the necessity of a high probability for such important decisions, even if it’s against my own direct interest.

        • Ed Senter

          Maybe you missed the analogy so I will spell it out.
          Your life is on the line. Jesus Christ is your only witness advocate. Yet you guys want to argue why he should NOT testify on your behalf.
          If there was even a scintilla of evidence, I would be fighting to get it admitted into evidence.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You’ve done nothing to show that it’s not all pretend. In your particular version of Dungeons and Dragons, which you think is reality, we have do do particular incantations to save ourselves and advance to Level Two. That’s fine, but why imagine that it’s reality?

          As for “scintilla,” that’s just Pascal’s Wager speaking out of turn.

        • Ed Senter

          It is not my job to show that it’s not all pretend.
          You want to “cross examine” and find every excuse possible as to why not to believe.
          You create your own reality and imagine that your life has meaning and purpose.
          What you lack is the courage to step out in faith and understand that there is something other than yourself that is the center of the universe.

        • Michael Neville

          It is not my job to show that it’s not all pretend.

          If you want us to accept your proselytizing then you have to show us that it isn’t all pretend. Does your god exist, yes or no? If you say yes then you have to give reasons for your yes. Otherwise you’re just mentally masturbating.

          You want to “cross examine” and find every excuse possible as to why not to believe.

          It’s not our fault that you’re lousy at justifying your belief in your god. It didn’t help your case at all when you dug in your heels, pretending that your Bible doesn’t condone and support slavery.

          You create your own reality and imagine that your life has meaning and purpose.

          Our reality doesn’t include imaginary gods and suchlike fictions. And just because the only meaning your get from your life is wishing thinking about “eternal life” doesn’t mean that our lifes don’t have meaning and purpose. Unlike you, we do not fear death.

          What you lack is the courage to step out in faith…

          Faith is what you have when you don’t have evidence. We don’t have faith, reality is sufficient for us.

          …and understand that there is something other than yourself that is the center of the universe.

          We’re not the center of the universe. Nothing is. Certainly a fictitious, imaginary, non-existent god isn’t.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Atheism is the null hypothesis so, yes, it is your job to show that it’s not pretend.

          What’s truly surprising, however, is that you’ve got an audience here, but you don’t seem to care to actually share good reasons for why we should adopt your worldview. I’ll admit that all your insults have me right on the edge of joining your church. (Or is it right on the edge of banning you? I don’t remember.)

        • Ed Senter

          Too funny. I have had nothing but insults thrown at me.
          Atheism is a cop out.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          So then you have nothing.

        • Kodie

          What kind of cop out? From the delusional contortions you think make you superior and more meaningful than a cockroach?

        • Greg G.

          You haven’t made the case that anyone’s life is on the line after they are dead.

        • Ed Senter

          Because the analogy has nothing to do with after you are dead.
          The case is about eternal life vs. death.

        • Greg G.

          I understand the analogy. You haven’t made the case that the analogy applies to anything that is not completely imaginary. Eternal life is wishful thinking of someone who fears the finality of death and the threat of hell.

        • adam

          “Yet you guys want to argue why he should NOT testify on your behalf.

          No, bring him on, let him testify NOW.

          But you said he was dead, Ed.

          Is Jesus dead or not?
          If not, get Jesus out to testify.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/47968c2eaefa4f9181b4646021475ab8c462db74ae5a77412b54c606bae95068.jpg

        • MNb

          Uh no, that was not the analogy. But OK.
          Bad analogy. In a courtroom my life is on the line. When talking the fake christ our afterlife is on the line. Even according to your low standards those two are not the same.
          Oh – and of course, now my afterlife is on the line, I actually have read what that fake christ said according to four unknown authors. So it remains hearsay. Worse – what that fake christ said demonstrated that he was fake.
          My dear stupid christian, those analogies you apologists love so much have a tendency to demonstrate exactly the opposite of what you design them for.

        • epeeist

          All of this comes from the fact that he admitted that hearsay was only acceptable as evidence in exceptional circumstances. Having admitted that he is now stuck with the fact that the bible is nothing more than hearsay…

          Hence the resort to proselytisation and threats.

        • MNb

          How stereotypal, don’t you think?
          I mean, proselytisation and threats worked in the past.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Verden

          But sometimes it didn’t.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Boniface#Last_mission_to_Frisia

          “a group of armed robbers appeared who slew the aged archbishop”
          More likely a group of angry pagans who didn’t appreciate this christian hooligan destroying their sanctuaries by cutting Holy Oaks.

        • Ed Senter

          I am not arguing heaven or hell, rockhead.
          If there is no God, the only alternative is nothing.
          And to believe “nothing” is simply too stupid for an intelligent being to fall for.

        • MNb

          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          I haven’t used the words heaven and hell a single time, stupid liar.
          I used the word afterlife.
          Because that’s the word you used.

          “And to believe “nothing” is simply too stupid for an intelligent being to fall for.”
          BWAHAHAHAHA!
          In the first place when coming from a stupid christian like you this is a compliment, not an insult.
          In the second place even christians (but maybe not you, given your stupidity) recognize that I was nothing before my parents has sex about 9 months before I was born.

        • Ed Senter

          From nothing to nothing, so what’s in between is just freak random nonsense. And you call me stupid? Ha!

        • MNb

          “From nothing to nothing, so what’s in between is just freak random nonsense.”
          That you are in love with logical fallacies like this non-sequitur doesn’t mean I am, Mr. Stupid Christian Apologist.

        • Ed Senter

          The subject is “stupid beliefs” so it is not a logical fallacy.
          Since you began as nothing and you will end as nothing, then what’s in between (your life) must have no meaning or purpose.
          That is a logical conclusion.

        • Greg G.

          Your premises are founded on religious non-sense so your conclusions will not be reliable even without the logical fallacies.

        • Ed Senter

          Not at all. The premises are secular. From nothing to nothing, so what’s in between (life) must be nothing.

        • Greg G.

          That makes the every moment of consciousness we have all the more meaningful.

          If life was forever, this whole lifetime would be insignificant.

        • Ed Senter

          If you cease to exist, it will be like you never were here.

        • Kodie

          If you die and go to heaven, it will also be like you were never here.

        • Greg G.

          No, it will be exactly like I was here.The results of all the things I fixed and the accidents I caused will leave their mark forever, even if nobody knows or cares. I won’t be caring either at that point.

        • Ed Senter

          uh huh, the butterfly effect with absolutely no importance.

        • Greg G.

          Right. There are billions of people alive today who will not even be a footnote in the history books. In 150 years, they might be a name in genealogies. The easy way to not be anonymous is to assassinate a famous person or a lot of anonymous people. Who knows how many catastrophes I have prevented by being careful for which I would have been famous for causing without my diligence? I prefer it that way. One day the sun will expand and the earth will be vaporized so it will be like life never existed, except for the telecommunication signals traveling through space.

        • MR

          The hubris of Ed. The need to feel important. Speaking of genealogies, I wonder if Ed could name his fifth-great grandparents on his mother’s father’s mother’s mother’s father’s mother’s side. One day Ed will be thought about as much as he thinks about them.

          There is no remembrance of former things,
          nor will there be any remembrance
          of later things yet to be
          among those who come after.

        • MNb

          “The hubris of Ed.”
          This is perhaps the biggest failure of christianity. It preaches humility and stimulates hubris.

        • Greg G.

          Speaking of genealogies, I know something about my mother’s father’s mother. In my sophomore year in college, I lived in a dorm. They had put signs on the doors of our rooms with our name and hometown. The guy next door saw my hometown and asked if I knew his uncle. Being a very small town, I had known him my whole life. He told his mother and she told him to ask if I knew her cousin, who happened to be my grandfather. A few years later, I told my grandmother about that. She thought for a minute and said that I was a double cousin to my dorm neighbor. My great-grandfather and his grandfather were brothers and their wives were sisters.

        • MR

          A double cousin! I’ve not heard that term used, I like it!

          My mother grew up in a small town, but I was born elsewhere. I went back to visit the town as an adult and walked into the local cafe. Some old farmer who didn’t know me from Adam was sitting there, looked up, took one look and said in his slow drawl, “You must be that Henrick’s boy.”

          Family resemblances and long memories. A twilight zone moment for me. :S

          Disclaimer: Names have been changed to protect the not so innocent.

        • Michael Neville

          Names have been changed to protect the not so innocent.

          So in reality he didn’t know you from Ignorant Amos.

        • Greg G.

          A double cousin! I’ve not heard that term used, I like it!

          The daughter of my maternal grandfather’s cousin married my mother’s cousin on her mother’s side. So their four daughters are double cousins, too, but different distances.

        • https://www.jonmorgan.info Jon Morgan

          By your own premises, your comment is probably meaningless, since it didn’t exist yesterday, and even with the wonder of the internet is unlikely to exist in 100 years.
          So why should we respond to it?

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t care if you respond or not, but my comment was not a stupid belief.

        • https://www.jonmorgan.info Jon Morgan

          I think your comment incorrect, but I don’t think it meaningless.
          That is because I accept the existence of meaning without eternal meaning – a thing which your comment didn’t seem to do.

        • Ed Senter

          You can give your life meaning, but without an afterlife, you might as well have never existed.

        • Kodie

          I still can’t see how you think you might as well have existed, so long as you get eternal life. You don’t think this through.

        • Greg G.

          How can you enjoy a party if it doesn’t last forever? How can you enjoy a Sunday sermon if it ends before the NFL games start?

        • MR

          Casting aside other things, hold to the precious few; and besides bear in mind that every man lives only this present time, which is an indivisible point, and that all the rest of his life is either past or it is uncertain. Short then is the time which every man lives, and small the nook of the earth where he lives. –Marcus Aurelius

        • Greg G.

          Buddha on Living in the Present. “The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past, worry about the future, or anticipate troubles, but to live in the present moment wisely and earnestly.”

          https://www.mindbodygreen.com/0-2755/Buddha-on-Living-in-the-Present.html

          I know that the Buddhists learned art from the Greeks after Alexander opened the Silk Road trade routes. I wonder which way that philosophy went or if it was developed independently.

        • MR

          And how can you enjoy the party in the big mansion in the sky when the vast majority of mankind is being tortured in the basement? What sense does it make for an all-loving, omniscient being to create a creature knowing he was condemning it to eternal torment? No one asked to be created.

        • MNb

          Perhaps not, but it was a stupid comment resulting from your belief.

        • Ed Senter

          From nothing to nothing, then nothing.
          As an atheist, you are stuck with it- nothing.

        • MNb

          Stupidity piles upon stupidity.
          Communication with you is impossible, because you just repeat your stupidities ad nauseam. Apparently this has become another logical fallacy you are in love with.

        • MNb

          Ready Eddy demonstrates that he doesn’t want to understand what a non-sequitur means either.
          He carefully has disqualified as a judge of what constitutes logic.
          And of course he moves a goalposts. The Italian football team (soccer in the USA) has a job for him.

        • Kodie

          You still never answered me how you think your external validation to your abuser makes your life more meaningful than a cockroach. I mean something to me, I mean something to others, I am here for a little while, and we all do the best we can…. maybe some people don’t do the best they can, but I don’t see how your life is meaningless or purposeless without a god, or rather, meaningful or purposeful only if there is a god. You approach life with such misery about it, that I don’t even see how the (fictional) promise of eternal life can make you happy. Where are you going, what will you do forever, that you can’t do now, and can’t feel good about for the short duration of your natural life.

          I really don’t get what “hope” you think you have. We are talking about a different topic than if it’s true or if it’s not true now. I am asking you to explain why you think that makes your life have hope, meaning, or purpose, because I don’t think you think about it awfully hard. Even if you have eternal life in heaven with Jesus, I don’t know how you call that a purpose.

        • Ed Senter

          If there is a God, then there is objective purpose.
          If there is no God, then whatever purpose there is to life is all made up nonsense. Because you will die and it will be as if you never existed at all.
          Therefore, an atheist is hypocritical to call any theist belief “a fairy tale” since his own life is nothing more than a fairy tale.
          You believe I must “approach life with misery” because you yourself are in fact miserable but have convinced yourself otherwise. So ridicule and mockery is all an atheist can muster against a theist who actually has a life with purpose.

        • Michael Neville

          As usual with you, Ed, you’re flat out wrong.

          If there is no god (and there’s zip point shit evidence to even hint at the existence of any gods) then whatever purpose we have in life is whatever we decide it is. It may be made up nonsense, like the made-up nonsense of a “god”, but it may be something else. You wouldn’t know because you’ve told us that eternal life is the only purpose for your life and you don’t understand how anyone can’t have that as a purpose. You do approach life with misery because it’s only the afterlife that has any appeal for you. You’ve told us that almost verbatim. If the only thing sustaining you is your wishes for what you hope to get after you die, then this life must be meaningless for you. Coupled with your abject fear of death, we think that’s pretty miserable.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          If there is no God, then whatever purpose there is to life is all made up nonsense.

          Show me that definition of “purpose” in the dictionary. I’ve not seen that.

        • Joe Jach

          Is it ok to ‘jump in’ here?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You’re asking for permission to comment? Go for it.

        • Joe Jach

          Thanks, more ‘observing’ right now…

        • Ed Senter

          I explained it sufficiently above.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Nice sidestep! I completely didn’t see that you avoided my question! It’s almost like you didn’t have a response.

          Truly I’m in the presence of greatness.

        • Kodie

          No, you literally sound miserable if we take away god. You can keep saying it’s objective purpose, but it’s not. It is a meaningless statement in itself. If there’s a god, and you get external validation from that god, I still don’t understand what purpose you serve. You just believe something without even thinking what that belief means. It means you don’t fear death and you don’t hate life, but I still don’t understand why. Unless you mean something to someONE all-encompassing, it’s all bullshit and worthless, that’s what you say. And so you think you do mean something to that someONE, somehow that’s an improvement? I don’t understand at all, and neither do you.

        • Greg G.

          A meaningful life will always have been meaningful, even after death.

        • Ed Senter

          -the same with fairy tales. But you are still dead.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You, too.

          Sorry to rain on your happy parade.

        • Ed Senter

          We will see, won’t we.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Pascal’s Wager again! Wow–that flaccid argument is appropriate just about everywhere. Does it do birthday parties, too?

          http://www.arabianknightsfarms.com/akfepic/buttons2.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          When your “argument” is nothing but contradiction, “we will see” is entirely appropriate.

        • MNb

          No, we won’t. After we die we won’t see anything anymore, because our eyes will stop working.

        • MR

          You seem to be the only one who has a problem with that.

        • Ed Senter

          To me at least, it would be a total waste of intellect.

        • MR

          So?

        • Kodie

          Why would you detonate so many explosives that close to the irony meter factory, Ed? We needed to pace ourselves here.

        • Greg G.

          Why do you fear being dead and why do you project that others have the same fear? Once you realize that religion is a fairy tale and hell is just an imaginary place, you are not controlled by fear.

        • Kodie

          No wonder you cling to your Jesus and can’t wait to die! Your perspective is catastrophic! Life doesn’t have any meaning given to us from a spirit in your imagination. It comes from taking it as a gift itself. You don’t appreciate it, so you would just kill yourself if it wasn’t against your superstition.

        • Ed Senter

          So you agree with me. What you call a “gift” is just “freak random nonsense”. Your “gift” has no meaning or purpose other than what you imagine.
          At least my “imagination” is backed by evidence and reason. And I appreciate every moment of this life because I know my learning will never go to waste.

        • Kodie

          Are you fucking kidding me with this shit. You have no evidence or reason at all. You have literature! Piles and piles of manure have been written about this, at it’s core, it’s still a mythical bullshit you want to believe because you would feel hopeless otherwise. If you came to reality, you’d realize, this is all there is, and we’re all in this together alone, and we just make it work as best we can until we’re not here anymore, that’s it. Do not try and mistake your confidence in what you wish to be true for “evidence” or “reason”.

        • MNb

          Hey Ready Eddie, the more I think about your analogy the more I like it. Which probably doesn’t spell any good for you.
          Let’s identify the roles. Let’s assume the Anglo-American jury system (the analogy works a little bit different in Germany and The Netherlands).
          Judge: me, MNb, because I am the one who is going to determine the rules. You are not qualified given all your dishonest stupidities.
          Jury: me, MNb, because you want me to convince that I am guilty – you are the one proselytizing.
          Defendant: me, MNB, because you write that my afterlife is at stake.
          Lawyer (attorney – in Dutch it’s the same word) of the defendant: me, MNb, I’m going to defend myself.
          Prosecutor: you, because you are making the claims.
          Here we go!
          Judge MNb: Welcome, gentlemen. I realize it’s not fair that I play different roles. So to compensate I’m going to be very flexible. The prosecutor will have a lot of room, even so much that this case might become ripe for appeal. Prosecutor, are you ready to present your case?
          Prosecutor Ready Eddie: yes, I am.
          Judge: beware your manners, Mr. Prosecutor, You can call me Your Honor.
          Prosecutor: I can’t do that. I only call our Creator the Intelligent Designer My Lord. Nobody else doesn’t deserve any title. We humans …
          Judge: Enough, Mr. Prosecutor. Your bad manners are well noted. However today I’m going to let it pass. Please continue.
          Prosecutor: I accuse the Defendant MNb of being a sinner and if he does not ….
          Defendant MNb: Objection , Your Honor! The term sinner presumes that there is a god and Mr. Prosecutor hasn’t even begun to demonstrate that. On the contrary, I …
          Judge: Enough. No digressions. You don’t have to call me Your Honor either, given the fact that you and I are the same person that’s a bit silly anyway. But you are right. Mr. Prosecutor should make a case for god – and actually his god – first. However I said I would be flexible. Are you 100% sure that there is no god or is there room for doubt, even if that doubt is beyond reason?
          Defendant: No, I am not 100% reason. There is some doubt, even if it’s unreasonable.
          Judge: Thanks, it’s noted. But even if the doubt is unreasonable we judge that Mr. Prosecutor will have his chance. Let’s steelman his case and for the sake of argument consider the possibility that there is a god, that it’s the christian god, even if these considerations are unreasonable. Mr. Prosecutor, please continue. The accusation against the defendant is clear. What punishment do you demand?
          Prosecutor: No no, I am not demanding anything. That’s up to god. Btw he actually is also the jury and the ….
          Defendant: Objection! Mr. Prosecutor is ….
          Judge: Be silent, Defendant. I can recognizing nonsense myself. Mr. Prosecutor, it’s you who introduced the analogy. Then also accept the consequences or your analogy will fall apart long before it ended. God, whether he exists or not, is not here. You are. Like a real prosecutor represents government you now represent your god, even if it’s imaginary. Answer my question. What punishment do you demand?
          Prosecutor: Eternal afterlife. However regarding after life the actual choice is …
          Judge: Enough, Mr. Prosecutor. I am not interested in your digressions. To use your own words: the afterlife of the defendant is at stake. Correct or incorrect?
          Prosecutor: Yes, but ….
          Judge: I said enough, Mr. Prosecutor. You are not deaf, are you? Oh wait, my bad. You are a stupid apologist and lack of focus is to be expected. Still I cannot tolerate it – this trial already is a waste of time. Your case is clear. The defendant is accused of being a sinner and his afterlife is at stake. Defense, it’s your turn.
          Defendant: This accusation is nonsense. There is no god. Sin is a meaningless word. There is no accusation so their can’t be any punishment. However I do concur that the punishment as proposed by Mr. Prosecutor is cruel and terrible.
          (The jury shivers in horror).
          Nobody deserves such punishments. In my country even life sentence lasts 30 years at the max, depending on the behaviour of the prisoner. It’s unthinkable that my client, who accidentally happens to be me, you and the jury too, should be punished like that for something that is not a crime and moreover something he can’t be guilty of by definition. Thank you, Mr. Jury, for your attention.
          Judge: You are silly again, defendant. You don’t need to call your self Mr. either. Your point is clear. However this trial is all about evidence. Mr. Prosecutor, are you ready to present it?
          Prosecutor: It’s about time. I have the best evidence possible: the Testimony of Lord YHWH Himself, as laid down in the Holy Bible.
          Defendant: Objection! Mr. Prosecutor has not …
          Judge: Yeah, yeah, enough and overruled. This evidence is admitted.
          Prosecutor: Especially four books, the Gospels, are relevant for my case.
          Defendant: Objection! The four Gospels are not Testimony of Lord YHWH, as Mr. Prosecutor claimed They are written by …
          Prosecutor: The texts are obviously inspired by Lord YHWH Himself, who merely used humans to write them down.
          Judge: Objection overruled.
          Prosecutor: Besides the Gospels the Holy Bible provides supporting evidence in the form of Genesis ….
          Defendant: Objection! Genesis contains two origin stories that contradict each other. It can’t be reliable.
          Prosecutor: The Holy Bible being inspired divinely ….
          Judge: Spare me your theology. I don’t care. Restrict yourself to the four Gospels.
          Prosecutor: But Genesis makes clear where sin comes from. Due to the Fall and Original Sin the defendant can nothing be but a sinner. Jesus himself explicitly referred to it when ….
          Defendant: Objection! This evidence is supposed to come from Mr. Prosecutor’s god (an imaginary one I permit myself to repeat) and now he’s suddenly talking about another character.
          Prosecutor: Lord YHWH, his son Jesus the Christ and the Holy Spirit are one. It’s called the Trinity, a difficult theological topic. Let me explain ….
          Judge: Enough. I already told you that you must restrict yourself to evidence. I won’t permit theological disgressions. But as I’m in an extraordinary benevolent mood today I’m going to accept your argument. Jesus spoke on behalf of YHWH his Father. His Testimony will be admitted. Please continue.
          Defendant: Objection!
          Judge: Defendant, behave yourself please! What again?
          Defendant: Hearsay. Jesus did not write down his testimony myself, the authors of the Gospels did.
          Prosecutor: Given what’s at stake – the afterlife of the defendant – I must insist …
          Judge: Yeah yeah, overruled. You have nothing better than this and never will have anything better than this. That doesn’t exactly speak for your case, but still you can continue.
          Prosecutor: According to Jesus Christ, King of Heaven and Earth, the defendant is a sinner and He being divine we have no choice but to accept it. However Lord YHWH has a plan. Jesus Christ himself ….
          Judge: Enough. This trial is not about divine plans, it’s about the question whether the defendant is guilty of sinning or not.
          Prosecutor: I’d like to provide some relevant quotes from the Holy Bible. For instance …
          Judge: Enough again. We all here are familiar what’s written in the four Gospels. There is no need to repeat it. This trial already lasts too long. Do you have more evidence?
          Prosecutor: Yes. The defendant is an outspoken atheist. Not believing is already a sin. That’s already enough to require punishment. At this point I rest my case.
          Judge: Your turn, defense.
          Defendant: Given the fact that judge, jury and defendant are the same it won’t be necessary to repeat all the nonsense of Mr. Prosecutor. There is only one thing I would like to point out. Even if we accept the ridiculous claim that YHWH, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, then …
          Prosecutor: Objection! That’s not ridiculous. Do some serious theological study and …
          Judge: Accepted. Whether it’s a ridiculous claim or not, that doesn’t matter right now. We only need to discuss the evidence as laid down in the Gospels.
          Defendant: OK then. Jesus was not only supposed to be Christ,
          Prosecutor: Objection! Loaded languaged. Jesus was not supposed ….
          Judge: Accepted. Defendant, make your point. Stick to the evidence, ie discuss the Gospels.
          Defendant. Jesus was not only Christ, even if Mr. Prosecutor has never brought in any evidence for this, he was also a miracle curer and a prophet. He made several prophecies that have been proven false. For instance ….
          Prosecutor: Objection! Those prophecies are not false, on the contrary. Take …
          Judge: Silent, you two! Show some respect for this court. Defense, you don’t need to quote from the Bible. The jury and I are exactly as aware of these quotes as you are. Prosecutor, you have had your chance. Defense, make your point.
          Defense: I have made my case too. Jesus is a false prophet as the Bible makes clear. I rest my case.
          Judge: Finally. That took way more time then necessary. Jury, pay close attention. I will summarize the case. Please neglect all the nonsense brought up by both the Prosecution and the Defense. The question is simple. Is the defendant guilty of sinning and should he be punished this horribly, with afterlife, spend in the eternal and unescapable company of Mr. Prosecutor and likeminded souls? Or is the defendant innocent and should rest in peace after he dies? Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, return to nothingness? We all have the background information that the prospect of nothingness scares Mr. Prosecutor his pants off. However that cannot play any role. Guilty of sin or innocent, that’s the question. You have heard the evidence: Jesus’ words as laid down in the Gospels. You have heard the Defense: Jesus was demonstrably a false prophet. So even if Lord YHWH is nothing but the product of imagination, even if the punishment proposed by Mr. Prosecutor is acceptable, even if the testimony is nothing but hearsay, your verdict depends on this point. Is Jesus’ testimony reliable or not? The verdict is yours.
          Jury: We haven’t been able to arrive at a verdict. Jesus is a false prophet, no doubt. The point is: Mr. Prosecutor doesn’t have a case. So it’s meaningless to say that the Defendant deserves a punishment like proposed by him or not, in the form of eternal afterlife. We are thinking of the punishment right here and now, during the life of the defendant. Mr. Prosecutor alas hasn’t had the chance to make this point, but his punishment involves more: he wants to force prayer and church attendance on the defendant. We think that utterly unfair. We think the defendant should be free to decide whether to pray and to visit church or not. Not coincidantally we happen to know that the defendant has prayed as a child and a teen and also has visited church and even mosque. We also have access to the background information that Mr. Prosecutor defends free will. That means he wants to leave the choice to the defendant as well. That he has even tried to make a case doesn’t speak for his coherence, but that’s something we are used to.
          So no verdict as far as afterlife goes, not in this trial. As far as Eartly life is concerned the defendant is free to leave this courtroom.

        • Ed Senter

          First of all, you need to learn how to reason because you are all over the place. Don’t be upset, most people don’t know how to think.
          Second, the only thing on trial here in my analogy is whether or not there is an afterlife.
          Finally, from what I can decipher from your rant, the conclusion for you to my analogy is that the verdict is still unknown.

          The difference between you and me is that I am looking and you don’t care.

        • MNb

          “Don’t be upset, most people don’t know how to think.”
          Don’t worry, I am not upset. I only need to look to stupid christian liars like you to get how true this is.

          “that I am looking”
          while wearing blinkers and keeping your eyes closed.

          “If this was a capital murder case with your life on the line”
          Your words, not mine. For your analogy to work this means “my afterlife is at stake”, which exactly is what my parody was about.
          But of course you are too stupid a liar to get this.

        • Ed Senter

          A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive. Where have I lied?- put up or shut up.

          For YOUR afterlife to be at stake means that you must first assume there is an afterlife. That is not my analogy. My analogy is testing whether or not there is an afterlife. And you atheists are doing everything you can to exclude all of the evidence for an afterlife. That is stupid.

        • MNb

          “A lie is a deliberate attempt to deceive.”
          I apologize. Even given your many stupid comments I find it hard to imagine that even you hold all your stupid falsehoods to be true.
          Like this one.

          “evidence for an afterlife”
          This is not even the worst example of your stupid falsehoods.

        • Ed Senter

          So you are saying that the books of the Bible and the Resurrection are not evidence? Not even the most detached and depraved investigator could come to that conclusion.
          Or, you are saying that the Bible is a lie? Which means you have proof of the truth?

        • Greg G.

          The Bible is evidence that it mostly was made up. Archaeology has shown that Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, and Joshua are fairy tales. Many other books are campfire stories. Some are science-fiction without any science.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          So are you saying that Dianetics is not evidence?

        • Ed Senter

          Evidence for what?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Evidence for Scientology.

        • MNb

          Ready Eddy continues his stupid falsehoods and displays he doesn’t want to understand what the word evidence means.

        • Ed Senter

          Would it not be easier to just define what you mean by “evidence” than to play the part of a smart ass?

        • MNb

          Given your lies, logical fallacies and other falsehoods that would be a waste of time.

          “play the part of a smart ass”
          Yeah, that’s on of my strong points – confronting others by reflecting their own attitude and behaviour.
          But in case it’s a genuine question I recommend you to study some philosophy of science.

        • Ed Senter

          I looked up “philosophy of science” to help me possibly understand your line of commentary. I am totally befuddled as to why you have called be such names as ‘liar’ and ‘stupid’. Not because I don’t understand “philosophy of science” (which I find interesting), but because it has absolutely nothing to do with my commentary or the continuing argument.
          How could one possible “test” the claims in the Bible and the Resurrection or even an afterlife. Other than near death experiences, which are not objective, what tools are available to test the afterlife? So why would you subject the Bible to any “scientific” test?
          Nevertheless, the Bible is evidence offered for the truth of the matter. Whether or not the Bible is indeed true is a different inquiry.

        • MNb

          “How could one possible “test” the claims in the Bible and the Resurrection or even an afterlife.”
          Exactly. So every time you talk about “evidence for the Resurrection” you demonstrate you actually don’t understand philosophy of science. Given your tendency to cling to such stuff no matter what people explain to you I call you stupid. Like here:

          “Nevertheless, the Bible is evidence offered for the truth of the matter.”
          Stupid, exactly because you claim to understand philosophy of science. If you actually did you would not have written this. But like I wrote – you’re not going to withdraw this no matter what. And that’s stupid, assuming I estimate the results of you IQ tests correctly.
          As for lying: in this very comment you didn’t. I promise to point it out to you the first time I catch you.

        • Ed Senter

          You make the fatal error of assuming “science” is the only way to test evidence. I have brought this up several times.
          You even brought up the court scenario of testing evidence which contradicts your own assumptions.
          You are very opinionated but not very educated.

        • MNb

          “You even brought up the court scenario of testing evidence”
          Nope, I wasn’t the one who brought up the court analogy. You were with “allowing hearsay of what Jesus said”.
          Oh – and my scenario wasn’t about testing evidence.
          But I won’t count this as another lie of yours; just stupidity, given your excellent job of missing the point of my scenario.
          Still, if you genuinely wish to decrease your stupidity, better not tell me what my assumptions are. You’re not hitting the nail, you’re hitting your thumb.

          I almost missed it: thanks for confirming that you don’t understand philosophy of science.
          Evidence is not tested. Evidence does the testing.

        • Ed Senter

          What we have here is a failure to communicate.
          This is not a scientific inquiry. Why you think it is, is beyond me.

        • MNb

          “a failure to communicate”
          So you do have some brain cells left that are still working!
          I – and undoubtedly not only I – noticed this weeks ago, when it became clear that you hardly pay attention to what people write. Like yesterday. You asked me why I call you a liar. I promised to point the first lie of yours I met. When I did – it was BobS who called you out – you accused me of attacking you ……
          Communication with someone like you is impossible.

          Another example is you not taking my advise. Everytime you tell me what I think, like here

          “Why you think it is”
          you look more stupid and dishonest. But granted, like so many other christians here you haven’t reached the point yet beyond which the difference between stupidity and lie becomes meaningless.

        • Greg G.

          Your courtroom analogy went down in flames. Science may not be the only way to test evidence but it is the best way. Science considers evidence in detailed and systematic ways. As soon as we come up with something better, we will switch to that.

        • adam
        • MNb

          You are right, Ready Eddy – all those nasty athiests underneath got ONE ELEMENTARY TRUTH totally wrong.
          You are the ultimate arbiter of what constitutes a fact and what doesn’t.
          As such you are not arrogant, you are confident.
          You are second, immediately after your imaginary sky daddy.

        • Ed Senter

          Again, you burn a strawman.
          I am not “the ultimate arbiter”. I am merely a member of the jury. Two jurors can examine the same evidence. One finds the evidence true and the other not true.
          It is the same with believers and nonbelievers.
          Therefore, faith is not blind, nor must I take any “leap”. I have examined the evidence for the Resurrection and have found it to be true.
          Therefore, I am a believer.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nope. You don’t care about truth or reality, so you’re willing to accept a comforting lie that makes you feel special.

        • MNb

          That’s not a strawman, stupid, because my previous comment was not an argument.

        • Ed Senter

          I know because it was a caricature, therefore a strawman.

        • MNb

          And you confirm that caricature by decreeing (as the Ultimate Arbiter you are) that a caricature suddenly is an argument.
          Thanks.

        • Ed Senter

          Thanks for confirming that you lied.

        • Greg G.

          You read your Bible with that dirty reading comprehension?

        • MNb

          Matth 7:1, Readdy Eddy – remember that one.
          See, now matter how you wriggle, the caricature won’t ever become an argument.
          Arguing that you confirm a caricature is an argument, but not the caricature itself.
          Looks like you are the one who is lying. Or stupid. Likely both.

        • Ed Senter

          When a caricature is offered in response to a well reasoned argument, it is an argument.
          Matthew 7:6-

        • adam
        • MNb

          Thanks for confirming the caricature again.

        • adam
        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Wrong. You can’t exercise faith without APOLOGETICS, which is a twisted, inconsistent warping of reason to meet a predetermined conclusion.

        • Ed Senter

          Well, the “predetermined conclusion” for atheists is DEATH, so I had rather argue the reasons for LIFE.

        • Michael Neville

          You’re not arguing for life, you’re whining that the thought of death scares you.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          So you’re STILL saying that “Once you believe, then you’ll believe” in the TL;DR version.

          Why should we accept that nonsense?

        • Ed Senter

          It’s take God at His word, or you will lose.

        • Michael Neville

          Pascal’s Wager combined with threats. Do Christians have any other arguments than “you’ll be tortured forever by my loving god unless you believe”?

        • Greg G.

          You are the person claiming the Bible is accurate. Tell us why the “All-Mighty” couldn’t help Judah against the chariots of iron.

        • Ed Senter

          What do you mean by “accurate”?
          I have said the Bible contains the Word of God. Is it the inerrant word? There is a lot to debate. However, as the apostle Paul said, “all scripture is offered for our edification and must be rightly divided.”
          Chapter 1 of Judges is a recount of Joshua 15. Are they different points of view? Is the report accurate? Is the translation accurate? What we do know is that God told Israel to take the promise land from the Canaanites after they left Egypt. But they were fearful and without faith, so they had to wander 40 years in the desert until all those faithless Israelites died. When they did drive out the interlopers, as this passage in Judges recounts, was God with Judah or was he not? All of Israel eventually took the land, but it wasn’t easy.
          Contrary to popular opinion and mockers like yourself, the Bible was not handed down to Moses on Mt. Sinai. It is a collection of books written by fallible men under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

        • Greg G.

          If you have to include the adjective “fallible” for men, then you must think it is not accurate. I apologize for thinking you thought it was accurate.

          So is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit infallible? It can’t be if it can’t work around the fallibility of man.

          Why would you think I would think anything was handed to Moses? The evidence shows that the Exodus never happened so there was nobody names Moses leading it.

        • Tommy

          So is the inspiration of the Holy Spirit infallible? It can’t be if it can’t work around the fallibility of man.

          Reminds me of what the Atheist Experience show host Matt Dillahunty said during a debate with presuppositional apologist Sye ten Bruggencate about this subject: “No matter how pure the water is, if you run it through a dirty filter, then the water will come out dirty.”

          Pure water = Holy Spirit
          Dirty filter = Human minds
          Dirty water = Fallible discernment

          But then again; if the water is pure, then why have a filter at all?

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          Another caricature, punk.
          The truth is, “hate” is better translated “prefer” which keeps its meaning in context.
          ” 26 “Those who come to me cannot be my disciples unless they love me more than they love father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, and themselves as well.” Luke 14:26 (Good News Translation)

        • Greg G.

          That is what Matthew 10:37-39 says. He appears to have been basing it on Mark 8:35. Why did Luke put in “hate”?

          You really had to shop a lot of Bibles to get that translation. I found an “abandon” and a “disregard” but every other translation has “hate” from http://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm

          New International Version
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.

          New Living Translation
          “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by comparison–your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.

          English Standard Version
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

          Berean Study Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be My disciple.

          Berean Literal Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and yes, even his life, he is not able to be My disciple.

          New American Standard Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

          King James Bible
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Holman Christian Standard Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, and even his own life–he cannot be My disciple.

          International Standard Version
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can’t be my disciple.

          NET Bible
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

          New Heart English Bible
          “If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Aramaic Bible in Plain English
          “Whoever comes to me and does not hate his father and his mother and his brothers and his sisters and his wife and his children and even himself, he cannot be my disciple.”

          GOD’S WORD® Translation
          “If people come to me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples.

          New American Standard 1977
          “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

          Jubilee Bible 2000
          If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, and even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          King James 2000 Bible
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          American King James Version
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          American Standard Version
          If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Douay-Rheims Bible
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Darby Bible Translation
          If any man come to me, and shall not hate his own father and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life too, he cannot be my disciple;

          English Revised Version
          If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Webster’s Bible Translation
          If any man cometh to me, and hateth not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Weymouth New Testament
          “If any one is coming to me who does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes and his own life also, he cannot be a disciple of mine.

          World English Bible
          “If anyone comes to me, and doesn’t disregard his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can’t be my disciple.

          Young’s Literal Translation
          ‘If any one doth come unto me, and doth not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple;

        • Ed Senter

          The gist of the verse is do not put anything between you and God.
          You must study the Bible. You can’t just read through and pick out parts that you do not understand in order to ridicule.

        • Greg G.

          The gist of the verse is do not put anything between you and God.

          That is the gist of the Matthew 10:37-39 version of it as well as the Luke 9:23-27 version. But Luke 14:26-27 really amps it up.

          Mark 3:31-35 (Matthew 12:46-50 and Luke 8:19-21) has Jesus’ family looking for him. When he is told, he rejects them, saying:

          Mark 3:33-35 (NIV)33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

          Also:

          Mark 10:29-30 (NIV)29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel 30 will fail to receive a hundred times as much in this present age: homes, brothers, sisters, mothers, children and fields—along with persecutions—and in the age to come eternal life.

          Where does Jesus interact with his family in the Synoptics besides getting lost in Jerusalem at age 12?

          Apparently you are reading the Bible the way you think Jesus should have treated his family rather than how the gospels say he did. You have no business telling me how to study the Bible. You are obviously doing it wrong.

        • Ed Senter

          Why are you worried about his family?
          Mother Mary was at his crucifixion. His great uncle, Joseph of Arimathea claimed his body.

          What is obvious is that you don’t care to learn anything.

        • Greg G.

          Follow the conversation. You are trying to downplay Jesus saying you had to hate your family to follow him. That is consistent in the Synoptics.

          You want to bring in the Gospel of John to discredit the Synoptics. John has a touching scene with Jesus and his mom, ol’ what’s her name. John never gives his mother’s name. John gives the names of three women. Three of them are named Mary, including the sister of Jesus’ mother. The other named woman is Martha who had a sister named Mary.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I see you quoting from the book of legend as if it was settled fact.

          Based on how thorough the Romans were about documenting even minor facets of history in their subject territories, the complete lack of ANY contemporary documentation of some person allegedly coming back to life, ALL the zombie saints rising from their graves (Matt 27:52), the curtain in the Temple being rent asunder, etc.

          So I call BS for lack of evidence.

        • Ed Senter

          A person with a hardened heart ain’t going to believe even with the facts staring them in the face.
          Jesus first coming was discreet. It is at His second coming when He will come as the King of Kings.

        • Kodie

          The gist of the verse is your family may think you’re a wacko, so fuck ’em and come join my cult.

        • Susan

          your family may think you’re a wacko, so fuck ’em and come join my cult.

          Out of the frying pan, into the fire.

        • adam

          ” You can’t just read through and pick out parts that you do not understand in order to ridicule.”

          You mean like YOU DO?

        • Greg G.

          First, you have to have faith that you are right, then whatever pops into your mind is the true interpretation of a Bible verse. I can’t do that, so all my interpretations must be wrong.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          We HAVE studied the ‘bible’…with a dispassionate and courageous eye, overcoming the supernatural fear that was drummed into us as children below the age of consent.

          The book is vile, self-contradictory, poorly-written, and pornographic in both violent and sexual ways, by its own purity demands.

          THAT is *precisely* why we don’t believe it any more.

        • Ed Senter

          Yet, you are still bound by your traditions.
          It is a shame that you have not been properly taught.
          The only “purity demand” was on Christ.

        • adam

          “Another caricature, punk.”

          No, a DIRECT QUOTE, but a smarter person would know the difference.

          Your DISHONESTY is telling:

          You cherry pick a strawman then blame ME for creating one.

          Are you Donald Trump?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/1cacd31dfc70c2256752ccdddbb7f9187a55b6b6909939e4d04ed62ba2074089.png

          New International Version
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.

          New Living Translation
          “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by
          comparison–your father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.

          English Standard Version
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

          Berean Study Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be My disciple.

          Berean Literal Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters and yes, even his life, he is not able to be My disciple.

          New American Standard Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

          King James Bible
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Holman Christian Standard Bible
          “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, and even his own life–he cannot be My disciple.

          International Standard Version
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can’t be my disciple.

          NET Bible
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

          New Heart English Bible
          “If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his own father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Aramaic Bible in Plain English
          “Whoever comes to me and does not hate his father and his mother and his brothers and his sisters and his wife and his children and even himself,he cannot be my disciple.”

          GOD’S WORD® Translation
          “If people come to me and are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my disciples.

          New American Standard 1977
          “If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

          Jubilee Bible 2000
          If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and sisters, and even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          King James 2000 Bible
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          American King James Version
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          American Standard Version
          If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Douay-Rheims Bible
          If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Darby Bible Translation
          If any man come to me, and shall not hate his own father and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life too, he cannot be my disciple;

          English Revised Version
          If any man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and life, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Webster’s Bible Translation
          If any man cometh to me, and hateth not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Weymouth New Testament
          “If any one is coming to me who does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes and his own life also, he cannot
          be a disciple of mine.

          World English Bible
          “If anyone comes to me, and doesn’t disregard his own father, mother, wife,children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he can’t be my disciple.

          Young’s Literal Translation

          ‘If any one doth come unto me, and doth not hate his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own life, he is not able to be my disciple;

          Study BibleThe Cost of Discipleship
          25Large crowds were now traveling with Jesus, and He turned and said to them, 26“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he cannot be My disciple. 27And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple.…

          http://biblehub.com/luke/14-26.htm

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/681785c573e0e941d7e81f66dd2e305bc7671f7e9b41f0b84b263f098be05d79.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          The Devil can quote the Bible, but it takes the Spirit to discern truth, punk liar son of the devil.
          The truth is “hate” as used in everyone of those translations means to PREFER.

        • adam

          the Devil is IMAGINARY and cant quote anything.

          the Spirit is IMAGINARY and cant discern anything.

          “The truth is “hate” as used in everyone of those translations means to PREFER.”

          ONLY TO YOU.

          The rest of the world can READ

          New International Version
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate
          father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even
          their own life–such a person cannot be my disciple.

          New Living Translation
          “If you want to be my disciple, you must hate everyone else by
          comparison–your
          father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters–yes, even
          your own life. Otherwise, you cannot be my disciple.

          English Standard Version
          “If
          anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife
          and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he
          cannot be my disciple.

          Berean Study Bible
          “If anyone comes to
          Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and
          brothers and sisters–yes, even his own life–he cannot be My disciple.

          Berean Literal Bible
          “If
          anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his father and mother and wife
          and children and brothers and sisters and yes, even his life, he is not
          able to be My disciple.

          New American Standard Bible
          “If anyone
          comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and
          children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot
          be My disciple.

          King James Bible
          If any man come to me, and
          hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren,
          and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Holman Christian Standard Bible
          “If
          anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother, wife
          and children, brothers and sisters–yes, and even his own life–he
          cannot be My disciple.

          International Standard Version
          “If
          anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children,
          brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can’t be my
          disciple.

          NET Bible
          “If anyone comes to me and does not hate
          his own father and mother, and wife and children, and brothers and
          sisters, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

          New Heart English Bible
          “If
          anyone comes to me, and does not hate his own father, mother, wife,
          children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot
          be my disciple.

          Aramaic Bible in Plain English
          “Whoever comes
          to me and does not hate his father and his mother and his brothers and
          his sisters and his wife and his children and even himself,he cannot be
          my disciple.”

          GOD’S WORD® Translation
          “If people come to me and
          are not ready to abandon their fathers, mothers, wives, children,
          brothers, and sisters, as well as their own lives, they cannot be my
          disciples.

          New American Standard 1977
          “If anyone comes to Me,
          and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and
          brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My
          disciple.

          Jubilee Bible 2000
          If anyone comes to me and does not
          hate his father and mother and wife and children and brethren and
          sisters, and even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          King James 2000 Bible
          If
          any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and
          children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he
          cannot be my disciple.

          American King James Version
          If any man
          come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children,
          and brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be my
          disciple.

          American Standard Version
          If any man cometh unto me,
          and hateth not his own father, and mother, and wife, and children, and
          brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my
          disciple.

          Douay-Rheims Bible
          If any man come to me, and hate
          not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and
          sisters, yea and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

          Darby Bible Translation
          If
          any man come to me, and shall not hate his own father and mother, and
          wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, yea, and his own life
          too, he cannot be my disciple;

          English Revised Version
          If any
          man cometh unto me, and hateth not his own father, and mother, and life,
          and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he
          cannot be my disciple.

          Webster’s Bible Translation
          If any man
          cometh to me, and hateth not his father, and mother, and wife, and
          children, and brethren, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he
          cannot be my disciple.

          Weymouth New Testament
          “If any one is
          coming to me who does not hate his father and mother, wife and children,
          brothers and sisters, yes and his own life also, he cannot
          be a disciple of mine.

          World English Bible
          “If
          anyone comes to me, and doesn’t disregard his own father, mother,
          wife,children, brothers, and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he
          can’t be my disciple.

          Young’s Literal Translation

          ‘If any
          one doth come unto me, and doth not hate his own father, and mother, and
          wife, and children, and brothers, and sisters, and yet even his own
          life, he is not able to be my disciple;

          Study BibleThe Cost of Discipleship
          25Large
          crowds were now traveling with Jesus, and He turned and said to them,
          26“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and
          wife and children and brothers and sisters — yes, even his own life — he
          cannot be My disciple. 27And whoever does not carry his cross and
          follow Me cannot be My disciple.…

          http://biblehub.com/luke/14

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “Once you believe it’s true, you’ll believe it’s true!”

          Do you have ANY idea how stupid that sounds?

          If the black-letter text of your own book offends you, either you’re wrong or the book’s wrong. NO amount of handwaving is going to change that.

        • Ed Senter

          Yeah, that sounds pretty stupid. Maybe you could explain what it means.
          I don’t get what you mean by “offend”.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Your entire BOOK is a caricature…but you won’t admit it because you can’t accept that you’ve been living a LIE…and will CONTINUE to live a lie until you muster the courage to examine your religion with a dispassionate eye.

        • Ed Senter

          It is one thing to not believe the evidence. It is quite another to call it a “lie”. Please elaborate.

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          Another caricature, punk. Is Ezekiel describing a vision or the real deal?
          Answer- IT IS A VISION!

        • Greg G.

          Exodus 32:27 (NIV)27 Then he said to them, “This is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says: ‘Each man strap a sword to his side. Go back and forth through the camp from one end to the other, each killing his brother and friend and neighbor.’”

        • Ed Senter

          So the wiz concedes the verse from Ezekiel was a vision, so now wiz finds another random verse which he thinks shows a bad God?
          Who are you to judge God, wiz? These Israelites committed a grievous sin by worshipping a golden calf. God chose to eliminate 23,000 of them.
          Now go to Acts when the Holy Spirit descended upon the apostles at Pentecost. 3,000 were converted. The Law is a bitch. Thank God for His grace.

        • Michael Neville

          Who are you to say that Greg G. isn’t qualified to judge your god? According to your own propaganda your god is a sadistic bully who kills people just because he can. Lot’s wife looks in the wrong direction and ZAPPO! she’s a pillar of salt. An anonymous pharaoh won’t listen to Yahweh’s political operative and the first born of Egypt are toast. The people in Sodom and Gomorrah annoy Yahweh and it’s “nuke ’em from orbit” time. Greg was just commenting on another incident, one that you tried to excuse your murderous thug of a god.

        • Greg G.

          It is not a random verse. It is a verse that is clearly not a vision but it says essentially the same thing. Wanna know how I found it? It was a cross-reference in the NIV.

          But so what if it is a vision? It is still providing that imagery in a positive light in the Bible. That is why the Bible is a horrible example for morality. If you don’t have a sense of morality, don’t read the Bible because it’ll mess you up. If you do have a sense of morality, there is no need to read the Bible for it.

          Ezekiel 23 should be censored from children and adolescents.

          The story of Exodus is complete fiction. The Hebrews were not in Egypt in large numbers. They didn’t march out of Egypt, wander the desert for forty years, then annihilate the Canaanites, Midianites, and all the others. Their religion developed out of the Canaanite culture. There was no Moses. You are worshiping a fairy tale.

          Acts 2 is fiction. Luke borrows from Josephus a lot. Acts 2:2-4 sounds very much like this passage from Antiquities of the Jews 1.4.3 where Josephus is quoting the Sibylline Oracles about the Tower of Babel

          The Sibyl also makes mention of this tower, and of the confusion of the language, when she says thus: “When all men were of one language, some of them built a high tower, as if they would thereby ascend up to heaven, but the gods sent storms of wind and overthrew the tower, and gave every one his peculiar language; and for this reason it was that the city was called Babylon.”

          The part about the flames in verse 3 comes from Euripides’ The Bacchae: “Flames flickered in their curls and did not burn them.”

          Acts 2:5 mentions the Jews from every nation is a reversal of Genesis 11:4 where the Jews are scattered in the Tower of Babel myth. Acts 2:6 is about all of them understanding the languages which is a reversal of Genesis 11:6 about everybody speaking different languages.

          The gospels and Acts are works of Greek mimesis and Hebrew midrash mixing works of fiction to create new fiction.

        • adam

          “Who are you to judge God, wiz”

          Someone with better morals that your “God”.

        • Ed Senter

          All morality is relative.
          Compared to God, you have no morals.

        • Greg G.

          If God actually condemns people to eternal torture for not believing a ridiculous story without evidence, then everybody is more moral than God.

        • adam

          “Compared to God, you have no morals.”

          Slavery – condoned by YOUR ‘God’, I CONDEMN slavery
          Genocide – done by YOUR ‘God’, YOUR “God” promises to do it again – I CONDEMN genocide.

          I actually HAVE MORALS.

          You and YOUR “God” – not so much.

        • Ed Senter

          You are about as significant as a roach, squash.

        • MNb

          That’s still far more significant than your imaginary sky daddy.

        • Kodie

          How are you more significant than a roach?

        • adam

          And you are as sociopathic as your ‘God’.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nope. That’s YOUR fear…

          WE are human…a mix of primal instinct and unattainable ideals for which we still reach.

          No flies on us, Eddie-poo…if you want to believe that for yourself, fine, but you’re not going to make any sales unless your mark is very immature mentally or emotionally distraught.

        • Ed Senter

          Whatever gave you the idea that I was selling any thing?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          VALID morals are based on minimizing harm, on the basis of the idea that since we each don’t want to be harmed, we should not harm others.

          Religious ‘morals’, where they conflict with this overarching framework, are invalid.

        • Ed Senter

          That’s just your opinion. There is no such thing as a ‘valid’ or ‘invalid’ moral. Even by your definition, morality is based on “should”.

        • Greg G.

          So what is Christian morality based on. If you are a Christian, you go to heaven whether you murder 1 or a thousand people, how much you lie and steal, and even if you pick up sticks on the Sabbath. If you are not a Christian, you go to hell for eternity just for breathing.

          With an understanding of subjective morality, the consequences for crime is the possibility of spending a significant portion of the only existence you will ever have in prison. The consequences of harming someone may cause you to lose friends and allies in this life. That is greatly significant with no afterlife, but nothing but a trifle for the person with the slightest hope to live forever in paradise.

        • Ed Senter

          All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is no special Christian morality. As Paul said, “all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient.”
          The question is not “what can I do?” or even “what would Jesus do?”. The question is “what would Jesus have me do?”
          If you have the spirit of God in you, you can’t stopped being changed. Your world view changes and so will your actions follow.

        • Greg G.

          So many Christians come to this forum saying that there is objective morality and it is based on God. If you disagree, go work it out with them. Until you get those concepts ironed out between you and other Christians, you will not impress anybody and Jesus will still be the greatest prayer failure of all time.

          John 17:20-23 (NRSV)20 “I ask not only on behalf of these, but also on behalf of those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given them, so that they may be one, as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become completely one, so that the world may know that you have sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

        • Ed Senter

          I am not here to impress naysayers like yourself, wiz. Christianity is full of false prophets.
          What you fail to understand is that God ain’t on trial. You are.

        • Kodie

          In other words, you are the victim of an imaginary abuser, and you think if you hang around long enough, he’ll come by to straighten us out for you. I wonder why he sent some stupid guy like you in the first place.

        • Greg G.

          If Jesus can’t get a prayer answered because people like you can’t agree with other Christians, then who is God supposed to blame for that? Jesus thought Christians would agree so whole-heartedly that the rest of the world would accept that as evidence for the existence of God and Christianity itself.

          If Christianity can support false prophets, then the followers must be gullible. If you can’t convince those gullible Christians that you are right, then why do you present your evidence-less bullshit to atheists?

        • Ed Senter

          Jesus said when he returned it would be like in the days of Noah. Apparently, there is going to only be a relative handful of Christians awaiting his return.
          The Bible IS evidence.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          So the End is around the corner, but the number of Christians is to be quite small? That’s confusing. I thought you’ve told us how many Christians there are. Aren’t they at their highest percentage worldwide now?

        • Ed Senter

          Like you said, God don’t like lukewarm.
          Only God knows the number.

        • Greg G.

          A handful of Christian in agreement is not enough to impress the rest of the world. it wasn’t two thousand years ago when there were fewer people so it won’t be enough at anytime. Jesus is a prayer failure. If God doesn’t answer Jesus’ prayers, then he won’t answer yours unless you happen to guess what was going to happen eventually.

        • Ed Senter

          We’ll see, won’t we.

        • Greg G.

          We have seen for 2000 years. Billions of people have died since then. Jesus’s prayer failed most of them. Millions ate dying every year and you are letting them down.

        • MNb

          Yeah, of gullible people capable of believing all kind of silly stuff. That specifically includes you.

        • Greg G.

          What’s so grievous about worshiping a golden calf? Why not just use reason to show them that God is real but Baal is not?

        • Ed Senter

          Baal is real. He is a fallen angel and maybe even Satan himself.
          After all, they threw gold into the fire and out popped a calf. Satan can perform what we think are miracles.
          Paul said, “we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers in high places.”

        • Greg G.

          Satan can perform what we think are miracles.

          If so, then you could be fooled, too. Satan could do what you Christian humans think are miracles so you could be worshiping Satan with such idiocy as a Law that only condemns, forgiveness for a belief, and killing a so-called son makes it possible.

          OTOH, there are lots of tales of miracles in literature but nothing but confirmation bias toward coincidences to demonstrate any miracles today.

          But it has always been that way. Miracles are recalled from the past. Psalm 77 is lament that God used to do “mighty deeds” but not in the Psalmist’s day.

          Psalm 77 (NRSV)1 I cry aloud to God,    aloud to God, that he may hear me.2 In the day of my trouble I seek the Lord;    in the night my hand is stretched out without wearying;    my soul refuses to be comforted.3 I think of God, and I moan;    I meditate, and my spirit faints.Selah4 You keep my eyelids from closing;    I am so troubled that I cannot speak.5 I consider the days of old,    and remember the years of long ago.6 I commune with my heart in the night;    I meditate and search my spirit:7 “Will the Lord spurn forever,    and never again be favorable?8 Has his steadfast love ceased forever?    Are his promises at an end for all time?9 Has God forgotten to be gracious?    Has he in anger shut up his compassion?”Selah10 And I say, “It is my grief    that the right hand of the Most High has changed.”11 I will call to mind the deeds of the Lord;    I will remember your wonders of old.12 I will meditate on all your work,    and muse on your mighty deeds.13 Your way, O God, is holy.    What god is so great as our God?14 You are the God who works wonders;    you have displayed your might among the peoples.15 With your strong arm you redeemed your people,    the descendants of Jacob and Joseph.Selah16 When the waters saw you, O God,    when the waters saw you, they were afraid;    the very deep trembled.17 The clouds poured out water;    the skies thundered;    your arrows flashed on every side.18 The crash of your thunder was in the whirlwind;    your lightnings lit up the world;    the earth trembled and shook.19 Your way was through the sea,    your path, through the mighty waters;    yet your footprints were unseen.20 You led your people like a flock    by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          God used to do “mighty deeds” but not in the Psalmist’s day.

          That’s so common a trope that it must have a name.

          The author of the Tao Te Ching lamented that things had been going downhill in society, but things were terrific during the reign of the (mythical) Yellow Emperor.

        • Greg G.

          “Times are bad. Children no longer obey their parents, and everyone is writing a book.”
              –Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BC-43 BC)

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          ” and everyone is writing a book.””

          Of course! It’s NaNoWriMo (National Novel Writing Month)

          😉

        • Joe

          If so, then you could be fooled, too. Satan could do what you Christian humans think are miracles so you could be worshiping Satan with such idiocy as a Law that only condemns, forgiveness for a belief, and killing a so-called son makes it possible.

          And of course, God wouldn’t intervene to stop this as it would violate our free will.

        • Joe

          Baal is real. He is a fallen angel and maybe even Satan himself.

          Let me guess though: He’s invisible, and can’t be detected by man if he doesn’t want to be found. He also works in ways that are indistinguishable from natural ways so as not to reveal himself. Got it.

          How many such creatures actually exist?

          Satan can perform what we think are miracles.

          How do we tell the difference?

        • Ed Senter

          You can not read the Bible and conclude demons do not exist.
          If fact, Satan’s biggest ploy is to get you to believe he doesn’t exist.

        • Joe

          How do you know what Satan’s biggest ploy is?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “You can not read Harry Potter and conclude Dementors do not exist.”

          “You can not read Lord of the Rings and conclude that Balrogs do not exist”.

          Do you see how silly that sounds, now?

        • Ed Senter

          Friend, it makes perfect sense. Good analogy.

        • Greg G.

          Right. When I read The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings, I was anxious to find out how each episode turned out but they were full of cliffhangers when it went to a simultaneous adventure with other characters. I even had a dream about the Elven princess Galadriel once. But never once did I believe hobbits, wizards, orcs, and dragons existed. Nor even Elven princesses.

          I can enjoy the stories in the Bible the same way, though it lacks suspense, but it is unsettling to remember that many people actually believe those stories at any level.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “Baal is real. He is a fallen angel and maybe even Satan himself.”

          More assertion.. I DON’T BELIEVE YOU.

        • adam

          “Who are you to judge God, wiz?”

        • Susan

          Who are you to judge God, wiz?

          You judge God good. Who are you to do so?

          committed a grievous sin by worshipping a golden calf.

          That’s monstrous!

          God chose to eiminate 23,000 of them.

          How lovely.

        • MR

          And Greg isn’t judging God. He’s judging whether the story makes sense.

          It doesn’t.

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t judge God.
          WHATEVER God does is good because He is the Almighty.
          Get it?

        • Greg G.

          WHATEVER God does is good

          Is that your final judgement?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Trust Ed to make “God is good” into a meaningless tautology.

        • Joe

          I don’t judge God.
          WHATEVER God does is good because He is the Almighty.

          You obviously made a judgement that this was a true statement?

        • Ed Senter

          If you want to call “always good” a judgment, I suppose.

        • Joe

          You made a judgement that “God is good”.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Eddie-poo, we realize that for you, ‘judgement’ is ALWAYS condemnation, because that’s how your book works.

          ACTUAL justice is in determining truth of an accusation and mandating actions to both mitigate any harm and try to prevent a recurrence. That can include fines and jail time, but can also include psychotherapy to get the perp past the emotional baggage that impelled the antisocial action to begin with.

        • Ed Senter

          I and other Christians have been adjudged innocent because we are covered with the blood of Christ.
          So, judgment is not always condemnation.

        • Susan

          I don’t judge God.

          Of course you do.

          WHATEVER God does is good because he is the Almighty

          I get that you’re a terrible thinker. And that your compassion has been dulled by monstrous fairy tales that promise you will forever and that it doesn’t matter what happens to any other living being.

          Power is not goodness.

        • Ed Senter

          Ok, let’s do a little thinking exercise.
          I say whatever is ‘good’, it takes power to make it so.
          Now you tell me what ‘good’ is that is not someone’s opinion.

        • Susan

          let’s do a little thinking exercise

          OK. But be careful. This will be new for you.

          I say whatever is ‘good’, it takes power to make it so.

          If by “power”, you mean the ability to influence a situation, then whatever is torture, rape, murder, genocide etc. takes power too.

          Power is power. Having power is not the same as being good. That’s basic.

          Now you tell me what “good” is that is not someone’s opinion.

          I can’t. Neither can you.

          You think an imaginary genocidal rapist is good.

          I don’t.

          I am happy to explain what I mean by “good”. That is what my opinion is.

          It means having compassion and acting on that compassion for living beings that have the capacity to suffer.

          Now, you tell me what you mean by “good”. What’s your opinion? If it’s that imaginary, genocidal rapists are good because they can do whatever they want to, I’l find your opinion morally revolting.

          But hey, that’s just my opinion.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Good is minimizing harm and maximizing freedom and respect for consent.

          Next?

        • Ed Senter

          That’s just an opinion.
          Try again?

        • Greg G.

          It is the collective opinion of many people which makes it a subjective morality, even if some people claim they have an imaginary objectivity for it.

          If Christianity had an objective morality, why did they burn witches a few centuries ago and why did they stop doing it? If it is objectively wrong now to do it, it was objectively wrong then.

        • Ed Senter

          A “collective” opinion is still a power play which proves my point that might makes right. There is no such thing as objective morality.
          So, you agree with me again, but somehow, I don’t think that was your intent.

        • Greg G.

          But a collective opinion that favors minimizing harm and promoting thriving that forces compliance through levels of punishment proportional to the harm caused is preferable to a system that has no rewards or punishments beyond adhering to one ridiculous belief.

        • Ed Senter

          We agree again- believing that death is all there is as the result of a short life is absolutely ridiculous.

        • Greg G.

          That is the opposite of what I said. If that is a problem with your reading comprehension, then it would be ridiculous to believe your Bible-based belief system.

        • adam

          “believing that death is all there is as the result of a short life is absolutely ridiculous.”

          But it’s true, Ed, otherwise you could demonstrate someone who never dies.

        • Kodie

          Where in Greg G.’s post did he agree with you? You still never answered me how this makes your life more meaningful than a cockroach’s.

        • Michael Neville

          Ed wants somebody to admit to sharing his fear of death.

        • Ed Senter

          “adhering to one ridiculous belief”

        • Kodie

          Did you hurt yourself reaching for that one? Again, I believe you don’t know how to read. After all this time, I have realized your willful illiteracy.

        • Kodie

          You fear the wrath of your imaginary abuser, you were told that’s being “humble”, to suppress what should be your honest opinion. You’re taught to be a liar, you’re taught to love violence as long as you’re not the target, justify it with god’s perfect justice or some other bullshit, and hunger for approval more than decency. You can’t demand decency from god, so you call it good and you call it love anyway, because you’re not allowed to say otherwise.

          That’s a superstition, like being afraid to step on a crack or break your mother’s back. You are so weak inside from fear of death. Why bother if we’re all just going to be dead forever, that’s what you’re actually afraid of. If you dare to give god an honest assessment, you are afraid he will smite you – we don’t fear god because he doesn’t exist. Smiting or sinning is not real. You think we’re defying god or rebelling or having an unhappy life, or we don’t deserve a happy life, but you rejoice that someday god will sort us properly or all your siting like a good boy will mean nothing. Such a superstition.

        • Ed Senter

          You have fallen for the lie- “you shall know good and evil and be as God”.
          I don’t know good and evil.

        • Kodie

          You mean you’re a sociopath.

        • adam

          “You have fallen for the lie- “you shall know good and evil and be as God”.”

          I can never be IMAGINARY like God, maybe exaggerated and lied about like Jesus, if he actually existed.

          “I don’t know good and evil.”

          Then what makes you think God is good and not evil?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/25868c89df190f1a1b0c4fea7ddc7591c0d18461fcd81749e02a9ccebceaab91.jpg

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Even in the story, that wasn’t a lie. ‘Adam’ & ‘Eve’ DID know good and evil, as evidenced by their shame at their nakedness.

          In the story, ‘god’ threw them out because they’d head for the Tree of Life next, at which point they WOULD be as ‘god’.

          So, not a lie…the serpent was framed, as was ‘Eve’. The real culprit was ‘god’, for setting up a sting operation that children couldn’t resist.

        • Ed Senter

          That is a stupid childish caricature.
          It wasn’t a “sting operation” like dangling a piece of candy before a child.
          It was a well reasoned prohibition imposed on a man and woman who are every bit much smarter than we are.
          It was just like the book says. Adam and Eve either trusted God, or they were out the door and completely on their own. They were banished from the source of life itself.

        • Greg G.

          Well reasoned? If they didn’t have knowledge of good and evil without eating from the tree, then they could not know that it was evil to disobey God. If they had knowledge of good and evil, then nothing would change if they ate from it, so it was not reasonable to ban it.

        • Ed Senter

          Whether it was good or evil didn’t even enter into the equation until after they ate of the tree. All they had to do was take God at His word and not eat from that tree. Having knowledge of good and evil was suppose to make them as God. It didn’t make them God so that was a lie.

        • Greg G.

          So your God created people without the ability to resist eating from the tree in order to have a pretext for damning others to hell when the Might could condemn anybody for any reason or no reason. It is completely pointless.

          If God didn’t want them to eat from tree, he could have made Jesus instead of Adam.

          If God did all that just to torture people, he is a sadist. The word “good” is an inappropriate adjective for such a horrible concept of a being.

          Why would you want to spend eternity with such a monster? Do you think you can appease it?

        • Ed Senter

          Responding to the intelligible parts of your post in order to debunk a common atheist error: God could have created an automaton but He did not. He created Adam with a free will.

        • Greg G.

          I think your cognitive dissonance must have kicked in and blocked your mind from thinking it through to the logical conclusion. Let’s try it more simply.

          If God created Jesus instead of Adam in the beginning, then he wouldn’t have to condemn anybody. Jesus could take care of the garden and play with the animals, just eating from the Tree of Life forever. instead of forty days.

          Mark 1:13 (NRSV)13 He was in the wilderness forty days, tempted by Satan; and he was with the wild beasts; and the angels waited on him.

          Or are you saying that creating Jesus instead of Adam would be an automaton?

        • Ed Senter

          God did not condemn any human. He had a redemption plan in place. Jesus was not a created being. He is God in the flesh.

          What should I have thought through to the “logical conclusion”?

        • Greg G.

          How can a perfect god come up with a flawed redemption plan in the shape of Swiss cheese? Jesus said there was a place where people would go for gnashing teeth, therefore the redemption plan sucked.

          If he had just created Jesus, he would have had the Garden of Eden forever.

          Here are some verses about God being partial to his chosen people:

          Exodus 19:5‘Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own possession among all the peoples, for all the earth is Mine;

          Deuteronomy 7:6-8For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

          Deuteronomy 14:2For you are a holy people to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

          Deuteronomy 26:17-19You have today declared the LORD to be your God, and that you would walk in His ways and keep His statutes, His commandments and His ordinances, and listen to His voice. The LORD has today declared you to be His people, a treasured possession, as He promised you, and that you should keep all His commandments; and that He will set you high above all nations which He has made, for praise, fame, and honor; and that you shall be a consecrated people to the LORD your God, as He has spoken.

          Then we have verses that say that God is not partial:

          Galatians 2:6 (NRSV)6 And from those who were supposed to be acknowledged leaders (what they actually were makes no difference to me; God shows no partiality)—those leaders contributed nothing to me.

          Deuteronomy 10:17 (NRSV)17 For the Lord your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who is not partial and takes no bribe,

          The Bible says anything you want it to say and the opposite.

        • Ed Senter

          Why do you think the redemption plan was flawed? God isn’t going to force any one to take advantage of it. You have a choice between death and life everlasting.
          You do understand that Jesus was not a created being?

        • Kodie

          Why did Jesus have to be born? Who was being god while Jesus grew up? Did you know that by the time Jesus reached adulthood and started his preaching, probably most of the people who were alive when he was born had already died. Why did god take so long to think of Jesus in the first place, and then when he was ready to come to earth as Jesus, he took over 30 years to actually get the message out? And when he finally did get the message out, he depended on a handful of his cult members to spread it across the world, which took another couple hundred years to get at least to Europe. It’s over 2000 years later, and some of you numbnuts think there are people in the west who have never heard of Jesus yet, just because we find the story to be fictional. As far as other places on the planet where Jesus is still unknown, you raise money to make trips to teach the bible to starving children instead of what they actually need. I also think Jesus shouldn’t have died. Sacrificing his life to die to save idiot Ed Senter just seems like a stupid thing to do. He could have stayed alive on earth forever, transmitting his own message, being believed in by anyone who met him. Of course, that’s also silly. Nobody would believe him, you certainly wouldn’t. Crazy cult leader, that’s Jesus. Dying is something cult leaders prepare themselves for.

          I just don’t think the Jesus idea was one of god’s best.

        • Bob Jase

          Jesus had to be born because it was part of The Divine Plan Which Cannot Be Changed. Yahweh and the Holy Ghost (who’s ghost? – don’t ask!) were both god while Jesus grew up just as he was before and still is (so why Jesus, oh yeah, the Plan). Jesus was present before the universe was created so it didn’t take Yahweh any time to think of him as per The Plan. What either of them was doing for the first half of eternity is no one’s business but the Holy Ghost and he/she/it ain’t talking. God (all of hims) has eternity as a schedule so its not in any hurry to get word out or be consistant about his word, that’s our problem. So are starving children, climate change, mass murder and itches that we can’t reach. Jesus didn’t die, remember, death is final, Jesus just took a long nap, not as long as the one for his second coming but still long.

          And nope, Jesus wasn’t god’s (all of hims) best idea, that was Trump.

        • Kodie

          It all makes so much sense now. Count me in!

        • Greg G.

          Why do you think the redemption plan was flawed? God isn’t going to force any one to take advantage of it. You have a choice between death and life everlasting.

          A perfect redemption plan would redeem everybody without forcing anybody to accept it with threats like hell. If people are not accepting it, it is not perfect, ergo, it is flawed. It offers pie in the sky when you die without evidence, which means it is ridiculous to accept the concept.

          You do understand that Jesus was not a created being?

          Of course not. Jesus is an imaginary being.

        • Ed Senter

          Everyone is redeemed. It is just up to each individual to accept it or not. Only God knows why someone would not accept it. That is not a flaw.

        • Greg G.

          Forcing the punishment but not the redemption is a major flaw. Were you silly enough to make that up or gullible enough to believe it when someone told it to you?

        • Ed Senter

          This is a simple concept. I don’t understand why you refuse to understand.
          God could have created automatons. He did not. He created humans with free will.

        • Greg G.

          I know it is a simple concept. Why don’t you get it? God could have made a hundred times smarter with 20/20 foresight, too, so we could know the consequences of our actions to give us more free will. Why didn’t Gene Scott ever teach that?

        • Ed Senter

          We know the consequences and it is called death. And now the free will part is to choose between Jesus Christ our Redeemer or the second death.

        • Greg G.

          That is imagined theology bought and sold by fearful people.

        • Ed Senter

          For the sake of argument, let’s take my imagination and put it up against your imagination.
          Your imagination leads you to death, but my imagination leads me to life everlasting.
          Now, whose imagination would be from a more advanced intelligence?

        • Greg G.

          Do you think our bodies are not going to die? So far, so good for both of us, but it is not due to imagination that our bodies will die, so your example is not about what I imagine, it is the logical conclusion from the observation that over 75% of the people who were alive when I was born have died and only a handful who were alive when my grandfather was born are still alive.

          We know what happens to our cognitive abilities when a part of the brain is damaged and becomes non-functional. When you die, your brain decays so it cannot function.

          But that you will go on living after death is pure imagination.

        • Ed Senter

          Got it! Your intelligence is no more advanced than any other animal.

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          All God wants is the recognition that He is God. That is what that tree represented.

        • adam

          “All God wants is the recognition that He is God.”

          And God is incapable of doing so WHY?

          “That is what that tree represented.”

          No, the tree represented knowledge, without knowledge, Adam and Eve were just automatons.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/84fd9a6ae9aadbc517ef0ee17887c30ef93815c5b41f77ba134615529a239f33.jpg

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/5a9a9eb2a217d0ca004375f1f1ef57a67c079ef43bd707856a7b0d17e65228a7.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          The Adam talking to God comic was actually pretty funny

          What you refuse to understand is that Adam and Eve were the smartest and most knowledgeable humans to have ever lived. They were perfect. It has all been down hill ever since. The forbidden tree was the knowledge of GOOD AND EVIL. When they ate from that tree, they got a lesson of what it meant to be separated from God. Eating from that tree was an act of insubordination.

        • adam

          “What you refuse to understand is that Adam and Eve were the smartest and most knowledgeable humans to have ever lived.”

          And yet too ignorant and innocent to even know that they were naked.

          Ed, you’re an idiot as well.

          “They were perfect”

          Perfectly stupid until they had knowledge.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/cabed70b642dd4e05ad235b84e0aa17bf649485d3dd1ae990d98e27dbf7f5a23.jpg

        • epeeist

          SOP for theists such as Ed, when under stress just make some shit up. After all it’s not possible to check whether it’s true or not.

        • adam

          “After all it’s not possible to check whether it’s true or not.”

          but you can check out that it is not true.
          Otherwise they would have been smart enough to at least know they were naked.

          My 3 year old granddaughter is THAT ‘knowledgeable’

          But that doesnt stop Dishonest Ed, from lying, obviously.

        • epeeist

          but you can check out that it is not true.

          Well yeah, but you can see what happens when you show that the shit that Ed is making up doesn’t stand up to scrutiny, he simply makes some more shit up.

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t care if you believe it, but just get the story right, moron. They didn’t know they were naked because they were covered by God’s glory.

        • adam

          Not what it says, you are making stuff up again, you know LYING

          8Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
          9But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

          10He answered, “I heard you in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; so I hid.”
          11And he said, “Who told you that you were naked?

          They hid from the Lord God

          But the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”

          Your “God” is as impotent as you are.

          But no surprise there:

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c4e3bbea2d1e4d81dbd3798980be2ee8b39f893fee5d1d2b81b76b5e7ba184e1.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Since you think they were a couple of numbnuts “too ignorant and innocent to even know that they were naked”, how do you explain this?-
          “6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate.”

          So, according to you, she was smart enough to desire wisdom (and be as God) but not smart enough to know she was naked?

          My version makes a lot more sense.

        • Greg G.

          Because the serpent told her:

          Genesis 3:4-5 (NRSV)4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You will not die; 5 for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

        • Ed Senter

          Did the serpent also tell them they were naked?

        • adam

          YOUR VERSION?

          Eve was easily manipulated by the serpent, precisely BECAUSE she didnt have knowledge.

          And the even HID from YOUR “God”

          What an impotent God, just like you!

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c4e3bbea2d1e4d81dbd3798980be2ee8b39f893fee5d1d2b81b76b5e7ba184e1.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          If she was this automaton like you say, she would never have eaten the fruit. She would not have a choice other than to leave the fruit alone regardless of any manipulation.

        • Greg G.

          She wasn’t smart enough to make the correct decision. Nobody to blame but the manufacturer for that.

        • Ed Senter

          She was smarter than you.
          You not only willingly choose death, you reject redemption.

        • Greg G.

          We are as smart as evolution made us. A god could have made everybody much, much smarter so we wouldn’t make errors with our free will. If we are created by God, its his fault and nobody else’s.

        • adam

          “If she was this automaton like you say, she would never have eaten the fruit.”

          How difficult is it to trick a 1-3 year old into eating a piece of fruit.
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/24003acbe259fbd4611386b7a0761bc045ddcbd367319e26bdeed765705d3e8f.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          So a 3-year old is married and is told to go forth and multiply? SF

        • adam

          No, Eve had no knowledge of good and evil, even a 3 year old knows when it is naked.

        • Kodie

          According to you, all god is he wants his balls licked constantly, and you call that a wonderful fate. The truth is, he’s not god, because he doesn’t exist. The garden of Eden story is a myth that ancient people used to explain “why”. Why isn’t everything perfect, why do I have pain, why do I have to work so hard? Because your asshole of a god set us up so he could justify punishing us, or that we live in the reality of an indifferent universe and it is what it is? You are so pathetic.

        • Ed Senter

          So sorry for your molestation experience. Now, you refuse the truth and believe a lie.
          I don’t care if you believe the story or not. The principle is the same. Because Adam did not trust God, he lost his inheritance and God separated Himself from His creation. God is not punishing us. What we call ‘suffering’ is the result of God’s separation which ultimately results in death. Fortunately for us and because God values His creation, God had a redemption plan in place in order to restore that which was lost. That is what the entire Bible is about.

        • Kodie

          It’s just like a dumb fuck Christian to interpret what I posted as having been molested. You really can’t think of any other reason you come across as a pathetic dishonest bot?

        • Michael Neville

          Ed also accused me of having been molested even though I hadn’t given any reason for him to think so. I really have to wonder why he has a molestation fixation.

        • Ed Senter

          You are the one who wrote about licking balls, dude.
          Not my style.

        • Kodie

          Every single thing you write sounds like you’re into it, as long as it’s Jesus’s balls.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “WHATEVER God does is good because He is the Almighty.
          Get it?”

          You just claimed that “might makes right” is both moral and justified.

          Did you REALLY want to do that?

        • Ed Senter

          I never said, “might IS right”. I said, “might MAKES right”. Whatever is good, it takes power to make it so.

        • Greg G.

          Power can make evil right. So you cannot trust the powerful to tell you what is good. Power might convince people that it is OK to pick up sticks on six days of the week but worthy of death on the seventh day. If people believe in the power, they will go along with it. The power doesn’t even have to be real if people simply believe it is.

        • Ed Senter

          Once again, you agree with me, but somehow, I don’t think that was your intent.

        • Otto

          At some point you had to judge God good…that is still judging God

        • Ed Senter

          I am not expressing an opinion about God. I am stating the result of a defining attribute of God without which there would be no God.

        • Greg G.

          Oh, I get it now. You are judging a circular argument to be valid.

        • Otto

          But you accept the defining attribute as being true…you judged it correct.

        • Ed Senter

          God is omnipotent.
          That is no more a judgement than saying ‘what goes up must come down”.

        • Otto

          I wasn’t referring to God’s omnipotence…

        • Ed Senter

          Omnipotence IS the defining attribute.
          God does not have to be “good”.

        • Otto

          >>>”God does not have to be “good”.”

          Exactly…and you have judged that he is good.

        • Ed Senter

          Define “judge”.
          How is that different from an opinion and attribute.
          Exactly where did I judge?

        • Otto

          Judged = Determined

        • Ed Senter

          Some people argue semantics in order to facilitate a concept.
          You, on the other hand, argue semantics because you have nothing else to say.

        • Otto

          No I argue semantics because when atheists determine that the Character of God portrayed in the Bible is an awful, immoral monster Christians like you say we are ‘wrong to Judge God’, ‘God’s ways are not our ways’, etc. I am pointing out people like you are doing the exact same thing.

        • MNb

          Yes. You just judged your god when you wrote “WHATEVER God does is good”.
          Thanks.

        • Ed Senter

          No, you didn’t get it. Stating an attribute is not the same as making a judgment, rockhead.

        • adam

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3cea7d4fdc384f592beeb53fb1583a03a02faf09f6cbfdd8595339ebdd3d4a5d.jpg ” Stating an attribute is not the same as making a judgment,”

          Yours is, but you are too stupid to understand the english language.

        • Greg G.

          How do you know it is an attribute? You either made a judgement or you made it up without evidence.

        • MNb

          Exactly – you just demonstrated that you are the one who doesn’t understand the difference between an attribute and a judgment, Ready Eddy.

        • Ed Senter

          Glad we agree, but I doubt that was your intent, rockhead.

        • MNb

          Keep on doubting, stupid liar.

        • Michael Neville

          So why should we accept the sadistic, narcissistic, immoral bully you worship as being good? According to your propaganda your god kills people just because he can, he orders genocide and rape, he condones slavery, none of that sounds pretty good to me.

        • Ed Senter

          Think.
          God is omnipotent, therefore, what ever He does is good.

        • adam
        • Greg G.

          If Satan was omnipotent, would you make that argument? How do you know what you call God isn’t actually Satan telling you that he is God? How could you possibly know, especially since you can’t distinguish them from imaginary beings?

        • Michael Neville

          So might makes right. If you were capable of giving your apologetics some thought, you’d realize that’s not a basis for morality.

        • Greg G.

          If Hitler was omnipotent, would everything he did be good?

        • Ed Senter

          yes.

        • Greg G.

          Then “good” has no intrinsic meaning to you. Murder is good if God says it is. Abortion is good if God says so.

          Deuteronomy 32:39 (NRSV)39 See now that I, even I, am he;    there is no god besides me.I kill and I make alive;    I wound and I heal;    and no one can deliver from my hand.

          Does God have a creator? This verse shows that God is an atheist when it comes to that question. If God is demonstrating that atheism is the correct position, then who are you to go against God’s belief? You should stop believing. God says so.

        • Ed Senter

          What that verse is saying is that there is only one God. What you wrote is unintelligible.
          Correct, “good” has no intrinsic meaning. It can only be used for comparative purposes. It is relative.

        • Greg G.

          I know what the verse says and what it is supposed to mean.

          Who created God? If God says there is no other god, then he is an atheist regarding his creator. His creator is just as invisible to him as he is to us. All of the arguments you use for us not being able to detect God applies to God not being able to detect his creator. Why would you trust that atheist but not other atheists? If the god of your religion is an atheist, why are you not an atheist?

        • Ed Senter

          God is not a created being. It’s called infinite regression.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          And you stop that infinite regression just because you say so–very nice. Who could’ve thought at a mere definition could be so powerful? Or so handy?

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t need every possible question answered. Do you? My faith is based on the resurrection.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Good point. Why lose sleep over fundamental, unanswerable questions that highlight the mythological nature of your worldview?

        • Ed Senter

          Where we differ is on the “fundamental”.

        • Greg G.

          God could be a created being. Maybe his creator is created, too, and maybe not. If there is an infinitesimal chance for a creator god to have come into existence naturally, then you don’t have infinite regress. For an extremely large number of gods, it becomes inevitable that one of them would have come into existence naturally. But none of them could actually know about their own creator if they all play hide and seek from their creations for ineffable reasons.

          God’s creator plays hide and seek with God but is even better at it than God is with us. God can only hide from mortal beings for a limited time while his creator can hide from immortal beings indefinitely.

        • Ed Senter

          That is what Mormons believe.
          I am not a Mormon.

        • Greg G.

          It’s no sillier than Christianity and you both have similar evidence.

        • Kodie

          That is non sequitur. For argument’s sake, your god does whatever he wants to do, and he can do whatever he wants to do. That doesn’t make it good. It makes you sound like a monster and a victim of abuse. You’re living under the threat that god can banish you if you breathe wrong. That’s some tense shit, and not the work of someone who is good. If god can do whatever he wants, why does he want so very badly to crush your hopes and have so much weakness in his “power” that he has to threaten you? You are terribly insecure and abused.

          The problem is, it’s hard to feel bad for you because it’s imaginary.

        • Ed Senter

          I have stated this before: Whatever is good or bad is nothing but an opinion. I have also said this: Might makes Right.
          Whatever God does is good, apriori, simply because He is All-Mighty.

          So, your judgment of God is nothing but your opinion. Since you don’t even believe in the existence of God, your opinion is nothing but a caricature. You operate under a delusion.

        • adam
        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          Child, you have already demonstrated you have no intellect.

        • adam

          I am mirror you are glue…..

          “WHATEVER God does is good because He is the Almighty.”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a18a3237d360e002dbdd901e4a3f5688a3463b7d939dbc595090ceadb5ae4faa.png

        • adam
        • Greg G.

          Can you explain it without insulting anyone’s intellect?

        • MR

          Ed always runs away from the hard questions.

        • Kodie

          Ed doesn’t believe he’s not a cartoon character. When he says things, they sound like they make sense in his head, and when you draw the diagram for him of what his actual words actually mean, he thinks that’s the caricature. God is good because Ed is scared of god.

        • epeeist

          Child, you have already demonstrated you have no intellect.

          And there goes another irony meter.

        • adam

          ” The Law is a bitch. Thank God for His grace.”

          So which is it?

          The Law is a bitch or thank God for it’s grace?

        • Ed Senter

          The Law can not be kept. It never was meant to be kept. All the Law can do is condemn you.
          You can know good and evil and still not do it.

        • Greg G.

          If God is perfectly just, then everybody is condemned. If God is perfectly merciful, then nobody is condemned. If some are saved and some are condemned, then God is not perfect.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “The Law can not be kept. It never was meant to be kept.”

          Sounds like, according to this, a real asshole set up the rule set.

          And even beside that, you’re throwing around assertions that you’re not supporting.

        • Ed Senter

          Paul, in the book of Romans said that no man can keep the Law. A reasonable inference is that it never was meant to be kept.
          Then, it you understand the big picture, God gave the Law to prove the devil wrong. You can know good and evil and still not do it.
          Jesus said that no man is good. Only God is good.
          The big picture, of course, is that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. Jesus was the perfect man, because He was God. He had the price of redemption which was a perfect life. He paid the price with His death on the cross. His resurrection is proof that all He said was true and is our guarantee that we will have eternal life if we just trust God.

        • Greg G.

          Paul, in the book of Romans said that no man can keep the Law. A reasonable inference is that it never was meant to be kept.

          Yes, I agree that it was not meant to be kept. A reasonable inference would be that the Law was made up by priests who lived off the sacrifices of those who could not follow all of them.

        • Ed Senter

          No. What that is is an Unreasonable inference. There is no connection between the statement and the inference. What you have created is a caricature because you are a rockhead.

        • Kodie

          The law is a bitch, I love my abuser!

        • adam

          Stockholm syndrome it is.

        • Kodie

          If having a sense of morality at all is your indication of “moral objectivity”, who are you not to judge god? What happened to your sense of morality there? It just goes away? You are out for blood, cheering on god while he demolishes villages and wipes out societies?

          Meaning something to that guy is your only sad purpose in life!

        • Ed Senter

          There is no such thing as “moral objectivity” or objective morality. All anyone has is an opinion.
          I don’t presume anything about God. He knows infinitely more than I.

        • adam

          “I don’t presume anything about God.”

          And yet

          “He knows infinitely more than I.”

          Definition of hypocrisy

          plural hypocrisies

          1

          :a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not :behavior that contradicts what one claims to believe or feel

        • adam

          “I don’t presume anything about God.” ”

          Mr, Dunning

          “He knows infinitely more than I.”

          Meet Mr Kruger

        • adam

          “Now go to Acts when the Holy Spirit descended upon the apostles at Pentecost. 3,000 were converted. ”

          Do you remember in Spiderman II when he was left neurologically fused to mechanical tentacles.

          Miracle BABY!

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          It is a direct quote of a VISION, dumb idiot punk son of the devil.

          And concerning Deuteronomy, if the Israelites had eliminated the idol worshipping heathen as God had commanded, maybe they would not have fallen prey to idolatry like they did.
          Either way, man can’t keep the Law; only God can.

        • adam

          “It is a direct quote of a VISION,”

          No, it’s NOT, it is a STORY.
          “Ezekiel (/ɪˈziːki.əl/; Hebrew: יְחֶזְקֵאל‎, Y’ḥez’qel, Hebrew pronunciation: [jəħezˈqel]) is the central protagonist of the Book of Ezekiel in the Hebrew Bible.”

          “Either way, man can’t keep the Law; only God can.”

          Even YOUR “God” cant keep the Law

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/db61fa4bd6b578456c4be2d672753cd6ce316144a7d06c33412ee8c2725c6010.jpg

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c111a745bb6e423e6e81ec5958bcbc0fc24d63a641b94dda6110f52d8f68d0d5.jpg

        • adam

          “It is a direct quote of a VISION,”

          No, its not a direct quote, and yes, we know what a VISION is.

          a

          :something seen in a dream, trance, or ecstasy;

          b

          :a thought, concept, or object formed by the imagination

          It is something IMAGINARY.

        • Greg G.

          Why didn’t God create humans with the ability to keep the Law if it was important that they do follow it? Was God incapable of doing that?

        • adam

          IM PO TENT

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          Another caricature, punk.
          The truth is, if a woman claims she was raped but did not scream, both the woman and rapist are stoned. If the woman claims she was raped and did scream, only the rapist is stoned. The point being, it is better that a woman die than be raped. That is, she would fight to the death if she could.

        • adam

          “Another caricature, punk.”

          You mean another DIRECT QUOTE from the bible?

          “The truth is, if a woman claims she was raped but did not scream, both the woman and rapist are stoned.”

          Only if they are in the city, where people could hear them scream and only because the rapist would be damaging another’s PROPERTY, and because of adultery.

          ” If the woman claims she was raped and did scream, only the rapist is stoned.”

          ONLY in the city, and for damaging someone elses property.

          ” That is, she would fight to the death if she could.”

          Has nothing to do with her, other than she is someone else’s PROPERTY that gets damaged.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c862151f2f5bdf2af3910632858abe4bc4896f4a6d1d906e92b6825e8d451539.jpg

          See, if she is engaged, then the damage is to someone elses PROPERTY.

          You really should read your bible, it is a series of monsterous cruelty

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/bbce14a42148cb7935b08d9c8ed885e034ab959153a97ca0c1e9bfd3a95ee7bb.jpg

        • Kodie

          So…. you’re going to blame the victim.

        • Ed Senter

          You have it mixed up. “Blaming the victim” is an excuse given by the accused. Proving the crime of rape occurred, is totally different.

        • Kodie

          Blaming her for not screaming? Not everyone who is raped is free to scream, or in a place where people can hear them. Some of them are unconscious, even. You are blaming the victim.

        • Greg G.

          Deuteronomy 22:23-29 and Exodus 22:16-17 are about the rape of virgins. Where is there anything about the rape of non-virgins? Deuteronomy 22:22 says that if a man is caught sleeping with another man’s wife, both are to be put to death, but there is no exception for rape.

          So these verses are not so much about rape but protecting the virginity of the girl as a commodity owned by her father until another man buys it from him.

        • MNb

          For an unbeliever it’s reassuring to see how christian love goes to the rapist, not to the raped woman.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          What’s your address, Eddie-poo? Imagine you were visited by some guys who’re into nonconsensual rough sex with you as their victim.

          I’d be interested in seeing how you’d react if such a thing happened…I think you’d be VERY indignant if your honesty was impugned, victimizing you with betrayal of justice besides the physical and emotional betrayal that would be involved.

        • Ed Senter

          Why don’t you visit your criminal courts some day and sit through a few rape trials then get back to me.

        • MNb

          “….. are stoned.”
          That’s even worse than Adam’s caricature.

        • Susan

          The point being, it is better that a woman die than be raped.

          Are you serious?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “if a woman claims she was raped but did not scream, both the woman and rapist are stoned.”

          You seem to APPROVE of this emotionally…you DO realize that would make you a moral monster, right? Right?

        • Ed Senter

          Read or watch “To Kill a Mockingbird” sometime.

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          The more things change, the more they remain the same. If you had any brains, punk, you would realize they are no longer called “slaves”. They are referred today as “employees” and “tenants”. Hah!

        • adam

          “They are referred today as “employees” and “tenants”. Hah!”

          Hah, employees and tenants aren’t PROPERTY that you pass on to your children.

          Leviticus 25:44-46Living Bible (TLB) 44 “However, you may purchase slaves from the foreign nations living around you, 45 and you may purchase the children of the foreigners living among you, even though they have been born in your land. 46 They will be permanent slaves for you to pass on to your children after you;

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a18a3237d360e002dbdd901e4a3f5688a3463b7d939dbc595090ceadb5ae4faa.png https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b790f7e9f2291008f16e421ec9e53502015b30d5d276ec1fe7ff4c318f4c45ea.jpg

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Lev. 25:44-46. Read and memorize.

        • Kodie

          If you had any sense, you wouldn’t rationalize away what the bible actually says and pretend it’s anything benign. That’s the fucking point, dummy. Theists can’t handle and have to make excuses for the bible constantly, because YOU ARE THE HOPELESS ONE. You are the weak one. You can’t handle reality without god, Jesus, and heaven, and anything you can do to preserve the illusion for yourself overrides any rationality. YOU CAN’T SEE ANY POINT TO LIVING LIFE ANY LONGER if you aren’t saved. It’s super-important to you to ignore and deny whatever you have to about the bible in order to retain that false hope. It’s not important to an atheist to ignore the flaws in the bible as it is for you, and to pretend you’re hurting Adam’s feelings by pretending he’s the punk. You are ignoring his memes because they actually say something. I get it – memes can seem lazy, but you are the laziest. You repeat so many lies about atheists you should be in hell already.

        • Ed Senter

          The only reason for such a meme is to ridicule the “inerrant word of God” people. Therefore, adam is a punk.
          If, however, you want to discuss why those verses are in the Bible, that would be an interesting discussion.
          But that is not your point, is it.
          BTW, you have no sense of humor and fail to see the irony.

        • MNb

          If quoting the Bible is ridiculing the Bible then the “inerrant word of God” apparently contains some ridiculous things.

        • Greg G.

          The passage in the meme comes from Leviticus 25:44-46. It says you can own people as property, own their children, bequeath them in your will, the restriction against treating fellow Hebrews harshly does not apply to foreign slaves.

          Leviticus 25:44-46 (NRSV)44 As for the male and female slaves whom you may have, it is from the nations around you that you may acquire male and female slaves. 45 You may also acquire them from among the aliens residing with you, and from their families that are with you, who have been born in your land; and they may be your property. 46 You may keep them as a possession for your children after you, for them to inherit as property. These you may treat as slaves, but as for your fellow Israelites, no one shall rule over the other with harshness.

          The following passage shows that a slave bought with money is not a bound (indentured) servant nor a hired hand.

          Exodus 12:43-45 (NRSV)43 The Lord said to Moses and Aaron: This is the ordinance for the passover: no foreigner shall eat of it, 44 but any slave who has been purchased may eat of it after he has been circumcised; 45 no bound or hired servant may eat of it.

          If you can’t read the Bible honestly, you are doing it wrong. Why bother doing it wrong? You end up with faith in imagination.

        • Kodie

          Please explain humor to me. In my experience, Christians have a terrible sense of humor, very lame, bad timing, no idea what sarcasm is, etc. Please tell me exactly why you think Adam’s memes aren’t talking about you and be specific. Say, Adam says I’m like this, but I’m really like this.

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t hold that “the Bible is the inerrant word of God”. So when adam pulls what he thinks is evil out of the Bible, it demands discussion.
          What is slavery? What did it mean in 15th century BC? Did you read all of the other verses dealing with slavery in the Bible? Do you know that slavery is still practiced today? etc.
          Atheists use a very superficial understanding of the Bible in which to ridicule and mock. I haven’t found many to be intelligent.
          The humor is failing to see the irony that there is little difference between a slave, employee, or tenant.
          And, the U.S. never had a slave problem. The problem has always been about race. If you study the discussions from centuries ago, the issue wasn’t about whether to have slaves. The issue was whether or not the Negro race was human.

        • adam

          “What is slavery? ”

          It is the ownership of human beings AS PROPERTY, just as the bible states.

          “The humor is failing to see the irony that there is little difference between a slave, employee, or tenant.”

          ONLY an IDIOT would make the claim that someone living as a tenant or working as an employee is OWNED AS PROPERTY>

        • Ed Senter

          Really?
          What does an employee or tenant own as capital? Their labor.
          Who owns their labor? The employer and landlord.
          Just because the industrial revolution took over the agricultural landscape today, its still all the same. Workers are slaves. Just prettier language.

          The point is, punk, you don’t have a point.

        • Kodie

          Employers don’t own the employees’ labor, they rent it, and the employee is relatively free to seek a different location to work in, a better-paying employer to work for, or a different kind of career. Depending on the skill set they can offer, it might be difficult, but they are free to leave and go home. Slave owners own the actual people, and any children they have. You willfully refuse to comprehend the difference.

        • Ed Senter

          That’s all sweet and nice coming from someone living in the post industrial age.
          But put yourself in a society totally tied to agriculture and tribalism. And you own no land, no inheritance, no power. Would you be willing to “rent” yourself into servitude?

          And, for your information, God prohibited involuntary servitude.
          “16 Whoever kidnaps a person, whether that person has been sold or is still held in possession, shall be put to death.” Exodus 21:16

        • Kodie

          No, I understand the times, you asshole. I understand that society did not apparently have a concept that humans had feelings and should have rights as an employee. There were no choices offered, so a hungry person has to do whatever they can do to stay alive. They didn’t rent themselves into servitude, they submitted to the only option there was. That’s freedom to you? That’s a free society?

        • Ed Senter

          The 13th Amendment recognizes 3 types of servitude: voluntary, involuntary, and forced labor on conviction of a crime. Only 1 illegal.
          In my opinion, I see no difference between an employee or tenant and a slave. They are just legal slavery.
          (I hope you realize the price paid in blood over the centuries for what you think is freedom.)

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You’re OK with being an “employee” slave? If so, I wonder if you’d be OK being a slave for life according to Old Testament rules. After all, they’re all the same.

        • Ed Senter

          Ha! I am not OK with being an “employee” under today’s rules. I am merely trying to communicate ideas contrary to the goals of you guys which is ridiculing things you know little about.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          So then your position is nonsensical for both atheists and Christians. Got it.

          And tell me what these things are that we know little about. Christian stuff?

        • Ed Senter

          No, I just have a larger and more realistic view of the world than you do.
          And, you know very little about the Bible. You may have read it and accepted ridiculous interpretations of it, but you don’t understand it.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          3 sentences, each one making unsubstantiated claims.

          When you get the chance, you’ll have to back up some of this with evidence.

        • Ed Senter

          What evidence will you review? If you will not take God at His word, which is the basis of faith, you are destined to die forever (Which you probably have already accepted as your fate).

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Take God at his word? Why? Would you take any other god at his word? You drive through life blissfully unaware that other people don’t accept your God claims.

        • Ed Senter

          I can tell the difference between a straight stick and a crooked stick.
          I don’t care if you “accept” anything. We are all free to choose our fate. I am just having fun debunking stupid atheist’s claims about something they don’t even believe in.

        • Kodie

          You’re not debunking anything. Why is your interpretation any more valid? Christianity is so obviously a superstition someone made up, and you trying to explain it as though it doesn’t sound absurd, silly, childish, and fantastical doesn’t mean you’re debunking it. It just means you’re spinning it.

        • Michael Neville

          Just for curiosity’s sake, Ed, when are you going to get around to doing some of this debunking you’re so fond of?

        • Greg G.

          I am just having fun debunking stupid atheist’s claims about something they don’t even believe in.

          You must be imagining that happening because you aren’t posting them to this forum.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Clever tactic! If you are challenged with something to which you have no rebuttal, you ignore it. I wonder if that would work if you’re short in paying your credit card bill. Or the tax man.

          I am just having fun debunking stupid atheist’s claims

          Have you finally debunked a claim? That’s great! Show me.

        • Greg G.

          Anybody can write that they are taking dictation from God but only a fool would believe that. If you want to take God at his word, you need to listen to the organ grinder, not the monkey.

        • Ed Senter

          They killed the prophets. Then when God came in the flesh, they killed Him, too. You speak the words of Satan.

        • Greg G.

          God thought his prophets were expendable? What if they didn’t kill Jesus? What would have become of God’s plan?

        • Michael Neville

          You keep talking about God’s words and Satan’s words but you have yet to show that either of these critters are anything but figments of your imagination. So what’s your evidence that either of these critters exist in reality? Remember that your lying Bible doesn’t count as evidence.

        • Susan

          I just have a larger and more realistic view of the world than you do.

          That seems unlikely. As always, you make more bare assertions when asked to support bare assertions.

          you know very little about the Bible

          As always, you make more bare assertions when asked to support bare assertions.

          you don’t understand it

          As always, you make more bare assertions when asked to support bare assertions.

          How many hundreds of comments now?

          “Because Ed says so” is not convincing.

          Except to Ed.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          ” I am not OK with being an “employee” under today’s rules.”

          So, are you self-employed, independently wealthy, or a flim-flam artist of huckstery, like a preacher?

        • Ed Senter

          I am a rugged individual. I hate the corporate state. I contract my services. I would not impose on anyone something I would not do. And I don’t think much of landlords or anyone else who profits off the backs of other people.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Then tell me, Mr. Rugged Individual, whether you’d happily be in slavery for life as described in the OT. As I understand it, it’s no worse that employment.

        • Ed Senter

          Ha! I am a slave only to God.
          And if you are still playing the game that “God condoned slavery” of the type of “pick any caricature”, I don’t play that game.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I don’t play that game.

          “That game”? You mean the game of providing good evidence and argument? I thought rugged individuals like you valued the truth. So just admit that you’ve got nothing. If you’re too afraid to admit it to me, do yourself a favor and admit it to yourself.

          Hey, I’ve got an idea! Next time you find yourself in a bind while defending God, tell him to get off his ass and defend himself.

        • Ed Senter

          Be careful for what you demand.
          Jesus will return and the sword from his mouth we be swinging. The time is right around the corner and closer than you think. Obstinate atheists may be his prime target.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Why think that? He said that lukewarm was his least favorite.

          If I stand in judgment in front of God, I’ll be happy to tell him what I did with the brain he gave me. I used it. I was skeptical. I didn’t believe bullshit because it was pleasing or because of inertia or because it was the ideology of my times.

          And of course this doesn’t address my implied question: why doesn’t God ever do anything obvious? Why are his actions indistinguishable from his not even being there?

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t know. Two people can examine the same thing and come to two different conclusions. But you call me a liar.
          I do know one thing. There is only one thing that God can not create. That is trust, faith, and love freely given.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I call you a liar because you refuse to let the Bible speak for itself. You want to use it as a sock puppet to speak what you want it to say. Doesn’t that seem wrong? Don’t you hate it when other Christians use that approach to make arguments you dislike?

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t think like or dislike has anything to do with it. I let reason be my guide.
          If the messenger says, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are to remain secret and sealed until the time of the end.” Daniel 11:9, I am going to look for “the time of the end” for the prophecy to be fulfilled, and not some arbitrary date that satisfies my bias.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          How is “time of the end” not some arbitrary (from our standpoint) date?

        • Ed Senter

          We are sitting in the cat bird seat with tons more information. We don’t know the day or the hour, but we certainly can tell the season.
          The Jews returning to Israel establishing a nation in 1948 is the number one indicator that this is the “time of the end”.

        • Greg G.

          The Book of Daniel was sealed up 26 centuries ago until the end times. It was found 22 centuries ago so that was the end times. Yet we are still here. A halfway intelligent reading of Daniel will expose the scam.

        • Ed Senter

          If it is a scam, why do you even care?
          You are not even honest enough to have an intelligent discussion about it.
          Jesus spoke about the Abomination in the Temple from Daniel (Matt 24) and the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD, so when the Temple is rebuilt, that will be another sign.
          That is still in the future.

        • Greg G.

          Mark put Daniel’s words into Jesus’ mouth after the temple was destroyed. Its a fairy tale.

        • Ed Senter

          So the atheist’s position is to jumble it all up and call it a “fairy tale”. Got it.

        • Greg G.

          No, I have looked at the Bible in depth while comparing it with archaeology and with the literature of the day.

          Everything before David is contradicted by the evidence. The book of Daniel is fake.

          The early New Testament Epistles are midrash that came to absurd conclusions to give hope to their generation that a reincarnated Messiah was coming while they lived. The gospels created an imaginary first century Jesus.

          It amounts to fairy tales.

        • Ed Senter

          The absence of archeological evidence does not contradict anything. Just means it hasn’t been found, yet. And the literature of the day originated with Babylon, you know, the Tower of Babel. Lots of evil back then.
          And there is plenty of evidence of David and Solomon’s Temple. You say Daniel is fake only because it is so accurate, that it must be fake. Only problem is most of what is in Daniel hasn’t happened yet. It is still future.
          The Messiah will not be “reincarnated”. He is already risen and in his spiritual body. He will return just as prophesied. The gospels presented a risen Christ. Paul’s epistles revealed the meaning of the Resurrection and the Church as the Body of Christ. What’s next is the restored Kingdom of Israel.
          Fairy tale or not, it is more than you got, wizard of death.

        • Greg G.

          The absence of archeological evidence does not contradict anything. Just means it hasn’t been found, yet.

          People who wanted to find evidence of the Exodus have searched diligently for over a century. If the story was true, it should be easy to find evidence. The absence of evidence where evidence should be abundant is evidence of absence.

          And the literature of the day originated with Babylon, you know, the Tower of Babel. Lots of evil back then.

          We know how languages develop. They didn’t understand the process thousands of years ago so they made up a fairy tale to explain it. There are many unfinished pyramids (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfinished_Pyramid ) that were already two thousand years old when the Bible was being written. Perhaps they told stories about one of those as the focus of the story. That is far more likely than the story being true.

          And there is plenty of evidence of David and Solomon’s Temple.

          From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon%27s_Temple#Archaeology

          There is no archaeological evidence for the existence of Solomon’s Temple, and the building is not mentioned in surviving extra-biblical accounts.[20] Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman argue that the first Jewish temple in Jerusalem was not built until the end of the 7th century BCE, around three hundred years after Solomon.[20] They believe the temple should not really be assigned to Solomon, who they see as little more than a small-time hill country chieftain, and was most likely built by Josiah, who governed Judah from 639 to 609 BCE.[20]

          It appears that every religious belief you hold is wrong.

          You say Daniel is fake only because it is so accurate, that it must be fake. Only problem is most of what is in Daniel hasn’t happened yet. It is still future.

          No, it is very accurate until it is impossible for it to come true because the person it referred to died elsewhere. That is how historians know it is pretend. It says the book was supposed to be sealed up until the end times but it appeared four centuries later. What was the point of it appearing 22 centuries ago if it wasn’t actually the end times?

          The Messiah will not be “reincarnated”. He is already risen and in his spiritual body. He will return just as prophesied.

          A spiritual body would not be the seed of Jesse, which is what the prophecies say.

          The gospels are fiction. The early epistles show what the early Christians believed and those beliefs do not include a first century teacher or a preacher. Some of the later epistles are forgeries from dishonest people who believed the fiction of the gospels.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          And the best thing is that you and your kind will be able to say that for the next 200 years. “It could be tomorrow!” you’ll say, nodding knowingly.

        • Ed Senter

          The best you got is, “it’s a fairy tale”.
          We’ll see, won’t we.

        • Susan

          The best you’ve got is “It’s a fairy tale.

          It’s indistinguishable and you just keep asserting that it’s not.

          You’ve been asked what method you use to distinguish it from countless myths and fairy tales that aren’t real and you’ve provided nothing.

          We’ll see. Won’t we.

          How will we see? All models of seeing that we can speak about reliably require functioning brains. If by “see”, you mean “know” all models of knowledge require functiong brains.

          So, for hundreds of comments all you have is an insistence that we Kiss Hank’s Ass on your say so.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBbwIzIpSLk

        • Ed Senter

          You have read most of my posts. If you think I have provided nothing, then you ain’t honest.
          God doesn’t need me to prove he exists. Atheists have the same evidence I have. The difference is you create a caricature, and I don’t.
          From the Tower of Babel (where all your myths and fairy tales come from) to Jesus Christ returning in the clouds with vengeance, God is in control.

        • Michael Neville

          The Tower of Babel itself is a myth, just like the rest of the Bible, except that part that’s lies. The so-called “evidence” that you’ve provided is unreliable at best and completely unconvincing. It’s not our fault that we don’t accept your “evidence” despite your attempt to make your failure to convince us that your god is anything but a figment of your imagination.

        • Susan

          If you think I have provided nothing, then you ain’t honest.

          You have provided exactly nothing to support your bare assertions.

          There’s nothing dishonest about that statement.

          God doesn’t need me to prove he exists

          Good thing. Because you can’t. .

          All you are capable of is assertions, insults and excuses.

        • Ed Senter

          Why are you an atheist?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Oooh! The “You’ll be sorry!!” gambit.

          I’ll have to add that one to my list of 25 Stupid Arguments Christians Should Avoid.

        • MR

          50.

          50, Bob.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Yep.

        • Ed Senter

          I am not so presumptuous as to predict your feelings.
          I said, “We’ll see, won’t we”.

        • adam
        • adam
        • Greg G.

          There is only one thing that God can not create. That is trust, faith, and love freely given.

          How can anybody believe somebody who can’t count?

        • Greg G.

          Or he could go after people gullible enough to believe the Bible instead. The Flood never happened but God might resent Christians who blame him for it despite evidence to the contrary.

        • Kodie

          Yeah, that’s your wish. You wish Jesus would just show up now and prove all your whining has any substance. Pathetic, Ed! But…. that’s just who you are.

        • MR

          This kind of talk makes me think of Jesus’ words when he said, “Not everyone who cries Lord, Lord….” If Jesus did exist, he’d be taking note of every insult and threat that Ed makes. It makes his Christianity that much more of a farce.

        • Ed Senter

          “8 But do not ignore this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day. 9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some think of slowness, but is patient with you,[b] not wanting any to perish, but all to come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a loud noise, and the elements will be dissolved with fire, and the earth and everything that is done on it will be disclosed.[c]” 2Peter3

        • Kodie

          Pretend all you like that your imaginary friend is going to show us because why would he send a dummy like you to spread this if it were true? Why would god entrust an idiot like you to try to explain anything to anyone, unless he didn’t even exist?

        • Susan

          Pretend all you like

          We’ve asked him to show us how it’s not just pretend, for hundreds of comments now.

          He just comes back with more pretend stuff and tells us we’re stupid because we don’t believe it.

          Ed must be a god.

          We should just believe him because he says he has truth.

          And if we’re not convinced, it is the devil.

          Excellent formula for evaluating truth claims.

          =====

          Edit: blah, blah, blah

        • Kodie

          I sometimes get the feeling he is in a panic spiral.

        • Susan

          I sometimes get the feeling he is in a panic spiral.

          Hard to say.

          Poe’s Law is in full effect on Ed.

        • Ed Senter

          I am just a witness.
          The Bible is available for anyone to check it out for themselves.

        • Susan

          8 But do not ignore this one fact

          Calling something a fact doesn’t make it so.

          with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like one day.

          That’s convenient. Humans say the darnedest things.

          but the day of the Lord will come like a thief…

          See above.

        • Greg G.

          I read that the Buddha was meditating when a rock came rolling down the hill, headed right for him. He maintained his meditation. Just before the rock hit him, the rock split in half, with each piece missing him. Religious believers will write most anything and religious believers will believe those anythings.

          Don’t you have any evidence that doesn’t look exactly like something that was made up by an imaginative person?

        • Ed Senter

          When the Jewish leaders demanded proof, Jesus said, “The only proof you will get is the miracle of Jonah”.
          They didn’t understand because they had rocks for brains. You have been given much more evidence than they ever had, yet you still demand more. The only conclusion I can draw is that you are also a rockhead and are in an even worse position than those dumb Jews.

        • Greg G.

          Your myth has a mythical person giving another myth as an answer. That’s soooo meta, man!

        • Michael Neville

          Jesus will return and the sword from his mouth we be swinging.

          The return of Jesus has been promised by idiots like you for the past 2000 years. I’d rate Jesus swinging his mouth sword (hint: that’s usually called a tongue) any time in the near future as the same as my chances of winning the lottery even though I don’t buy tickets.

        • Ed Senter

          “3 First of all you must understand this, that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and indulging their own lusts 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since our ancestors died,[a] all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation!” 5 They deliberately ignore this fact, that by the word of God heavens existed long ago and an earth was formed out of water and by means of water, 6 through which the world of that time was deluged with water and perished. 7 But by the same word the present heavens and earth have been reserved for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the godless.” 2 Peter 3

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Who wrote 2 Peter? And how do you know?

        • Ed Senter

          At face value, Simon Peter the Apostle wrote it. How do I know? I don’t.
          Why do you care? Is something wrong with the verses I provided? It’s directly on point in response to the poster.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You know … and yet you don’t know. Whoa–that’s some freaky Heisenberg shit happening there!

          I’m just pointing out that most NT scholars say that Peter didn’t write 2 Peter, that 2 Peter is an amalgam of several different sources, and that the authors of 1 Peter and 2 Peter are different.

          The church can make canonical any book it wants (and it has). I’m just pointing out the shaky foundation on which your dogma is built.

        • Ed Senter

          What dogma would that be???
          First sign of a reprobate is to attack the messenger and not the message.
          Just as many scholars say Peter wrote both.

        • adam

          32“Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
          33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

          That generation died 2000 years ago.

        • Ed Senter

          Only a rockhead who doesn’t even believe would interpret it that way.

        • adam

          Dont tell me, tell Jesus, he said it, right?

        • Greg G.

          Christianity has been burning scoffers and blasphemers since they first got political power. Blasphemy is a victimless crime and scoffers are just people who respect your intelligence enough to tell you that your religious beliefs are ridiculous.

        • Ed Senter

          Yeah, right…It is more like you atheists are in a circle jerk indulging your own lusts.

        • Greg G.

          What are you accusing me of? What do you think I do that you do not do that is so horrible?

        • Ed Senter

          You are an unbeliever and you ridicule and mock those that do believe.

        • Greg G.

          How is that so different than when you, as a believer, ridicule and mock those who do not believe? You accused me of indulging my own lusts but your example is exactly what you do. Ho hum, another self-important Christian warrior for an impotent god projecting his faults on others. .

          All you have to do is provide reasonable evidence and we would believe. You should try that just once.

        • MR

          Thank you, Greg. It’s so awkward when you have to show Christians how to be good Christians.

        • Greg G.

          I would like to show smarmy Christians how to be good people.

        • Ed Senter

          There is no such thing as a “Christian warrior”. “For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought
          into captivity to the obedience of Christ”. (2 Corinthians 10:4,5)

          It is not my job to convince you to believe

        • Kodie

          Why don’t you learn to fucking read? None of your response was relevant to what Greg G. said.

        • Greg G.

          “Christian warrior” is a metaphor, Ed. Christian warriors wear metaphorical breastplates and helmets:

          Isaiah 59:17 (NRSV)17 He put on righteousness like a breastplate,    and a helmet of salvation on his head;he put on garments of vengeance for clothing,    and wrapped himself in fury as in a mantle.

          Ephesians 6:17 (NRSV)17 Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.

          1 Thessalonians 5:8 (NRSV)8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, and put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

          It is not my job to convince you to believe

          Then why are you here? If you want to make claims, you need to show evidence to support them. Otherwise, you are mentally masturbating. You shouldn’t that in public forums.

        • Kodie

          It is more like you atheists are in a circle jerk indulging your own lusts.

          Ok, Ed. What lusts do you think we’re “circle jerk indulging”? Do you even know what you’re talking about?

        • Michael Neville

          Yawn. Come back when you’ve got evidence that isn’t from the collection of lies called the Bible.

        • Kodie

          This is how marketing works. You feel like you’re in a secret club, while the bible tells you it’s totally full of shit and can’t save anyone.

        • Ed Senter

          It is not a secret. “The same word brings life to some and death to others.”

        • https://www.jonmorgan.info Jon Morgan

          What these verses you quote from 2 Peter actually suggest is that 2 Peter was written at a later date (and not by Peter) to explain away the non-return of Jesus.
          Nearly 2,000 years later that is how apologists still use them.

        • Ed Senter

          So? We don’t know of a thousand year millennium until Revelation. Peter died before that book was written. And there is no conflict.

        • Greg G.

          2 Peter relies on Matthew. Matthew used Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews which can be internally dated to ~94 AD. That makes 2 Peter very late first century but more likely a second century document. That means it was not written by Simon Peter/Cephas.

          But you fear death too much to study the Bible honestly.

        • adam

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6a5b53f4489e73d718f1bf8170a6e17f5961429392c56d208f90d3671f5a3179.png “Jesus will return and the sword from his mouth we be swinging.”

          Will he have spidey-sense and sling his own webs to be swinging by?

          “The time is right around the corner and closer than you think.”

          Nope, further that you obviously think.

          “Obstinate atheists may be his prime target.”

          Oh I bet they are:
          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c4e3bbea2d1e4d81dbd3798980be2ee8b39f893fee5d1d2b81b76b5e7ba184e1.jpg

        • adam

          “And if you are still playing the game that “God condoned slavery” …, I don’t play that game.”

          Yeah, because you already LOST that game.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/831e274b356c03b8778b1d9672b8ab244560e2fda7a4cd57b0436d5bda02694f.jpg

        • Susan

          I am a slave only to God.

          It must be nice to have the choice to be a slave to an imaginary being.

          As opposed to being forced into slavery by real beings

          And if you are still playing the game that “God condoned slavery”

          Clearly the Jesus character that humans wrote about accepted slavery.

          You’ve done no work to show that any god exists. And made no connection between your god and the Jesus character that humans tell us about,

          Still. Just saying.

          The Jesus character that humans tell us about didn’t seem to be concerned about humans owning other humans by economic or military force.

          He might as well have used a rape metaphor.

        • Ed Senter

          Jesus did not come to teach how to live right. He taught about eternity.
          Adultery is used often as a metaphor for worshipping false gods.

        • Greg G.

          Adultery is used often as a metaphor for worshipping false gods.

          I don’t know about often but I would say that Ezekiel 23 would be an example. It’s pornographic literature.

        • Susan

          Jesus did not come to teach how to live right. He taught about eternity.

          If he didn’t even have good advice about how to live right, why should we believe him about eternity?

          Adultery is used often as a metaphor for teaching about false gods.

          You haven’t shown that any god is anything but a false god. Neither did human writings about your Jesus character..

          But nice dodge from the subjects of slavery and rape.

          By nice, I mean blatant. Not actually nice.

        • Ed Senter

          If you don’t understand the first book of the Bible, you probably won’t get the rest.
          This is a fallen world. Adam lost his inheritance to the devil.

          So, how does an unbeliever explain all the suffering and strife in the world? Mother Nature? Evolution? Eventual hope of Utopia?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          A pettifogging distraction from the point of slavery as involuntary chattel servitude.

        • Ed Senter

          It is not a distraction at all if it is a counter-point to some idiotic claim of “God condones slavery”.

        • adam

          “Would you be willing to “rent” yourself into servitude?”

          AGAIN, not what your Bible God says:

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fc08e92607fbb10ca5d9fec66168d9bf582a2748fa716fdb4283c37e046c25e1.jpg

        • Greg G.

          Is the selling part of Exodus 21:16 about capturing someone and selling them into slavery or is it about collecting a ransom for a kidnapping? If it is not about kidnapping for ransom, where in the Bible is that forbidden?

        • Ed Senter

          You are arguing like the Pharisees and other lawyers trying to find that loophole.

        • adam

          “You are arguing like the Pharisees and other lawyers trying to find that loophole.”

          What loophole.

          God state outright you can PURCHASE slaves AS YOUR OWN PROPERTY, to pass down to your children.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/33db0ae24b2227b6e9d5a68e163db56f694d809309548bb015e1279858262217.jpg

          So YOU are the weasel looking for a loophole.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/891db665af58352b854d9ed1a804cdf6e137dcd9f96a37adc7b7e573d25a0072.jpg

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          As I see it, Greg is following the facts. You seem to be the one with the predetermined conclusion, looking for loopholes that will allow you to maintain your beliefs and save face.

        • Kodie

          loopholes that will allow you to maintain your beliefs and save face avoid hell.

          FTFY

        • Greg G.

          I take that as you saying you don’t know the answer to either question.

        • adam

          And you are avoiding the question, because you understand your own lie.

        • Ed Senter

          Pray tell, was there a question?

        • MNb

          Yes. It’s a fine demonstration of your christian dishonesty that you don’t want to recognize it.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “You are arguing like the Pharisees and other lawyers trying to find that loophole.”

          That is PUREST projection, dude.

          I mean, *really*??!!

        • adam

          “And, for your information, God prohibited involuntary servitude. ”

          Except, no God doesnt

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fb4831e1694c2ba934736efcb24fc7f67501a3f169ecaeac7e1a8fd31de3d3f6.png

        • Ed Senter

          You are not smart enough to understand, but you are a slave, punk.

        • adam

          Oh, I understand how dishonest you are.

          And no, I am nobodies PROPERTY that will get passed on to their children as a permanent inheritance, AS YOUR “God” states.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/917e0243e0594115544c9172e33a00ff6b12bf5cfaf9f6f87087252570d3b723.jpg

        • Kodie

          Nobody here is dumb enough to understand the dumb way you have to interpret the bible in order to be saved by apparently a slave lover.

        • adam

          I am not smart enough to understand that I am not OWNED AS PROPERTY to be PASSED DOWN TO SOME OWNERS children as PERMANENT INHERITANCE.

          I actually understand words and their meanings, Ed, you apparently are not smart enough.

        • Ed Senter

          If you can’t distinguish the forest for all of the trees, you will never understand.
          Just this morning I read an article where Dremond Green of the Warriors said that owners of professional sports teams should call themselves “chairmen” instead of owners because it suggests slavery. Mark Cuban shot back that Green should take a course in business. Green gets it. Cuban sugar coats it.

        • epeeist

          Oh look, over there, a squirrel.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          The forest is still composed of trees which we study…and the reality of trees don’t contradict the forest, or vice-versa.

          In your ‘forest’, some of the ‘trees’ DIRECTLY CONTRADICT each other…but we’re still supposed to believe the entire forest is healthy and helpful?

          Not likely, and you’ll have to work REALLY hard to justify that assertion.

        • adam

          I am not smart enough to understand that I am not OWNED AS PROPERTY to be
          PASSED DOWN TO SOME OWNERS children as PERMANENT INHERITANCE.

          I actually understand words and their meanings, Ed, you apparently are not smart enough.

        • adam

          “If you can’t distinguish the forest for all of the trees, you will never understand.”

          So you’ve AGAIN demonstrated that you are dishonest with your ‘slavery’ definitions

          An OWNER of a TEAM is not the OWNER of its players.

          But of course, you HAVE to be dishonest to defend the bible.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/62da10177de8c12d9feedf1a0ff3d448ed929feef887a1192640edb3a8a15953.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          A team is just the total of all of the parts. The owner owns the player’s contract. The owner can trade that contract with a different owner and the player has to go. The principle is the same whether its 1500BC or 2017AD. It is all slavery.

        • Greg G.

          You don’t know basketball, either. A team is greater than the sum of its parts. It usually takes a while for a new player on a team to fit in and mesh his talents with the talents of others.

          The contracts are not unilateral. The player can negotiate what he wants. The player gets paid by the new team, the old team or both, but he still gets paid. Players can have no-trade clauses and they can set conditions for which teams they will accept a trade with. Players can ask to be traded and will be accommodated.

          A player can refuse to go and just retire. Slaves don’t get that option. Slaves don’t get to sign a contract. Team owners don’t get to keep the player’s children.

          Maybe you should argue something you know, like nothing.

        • Kodie

          Ed, you’re a sick fuck.

        • adam

          ” The owner can trade that contract with a different owner and the player has to go.”

          the player doesnt have to play, and the TEAM owner doesnt OWN the player.

          “It is all slavery.”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7727bcdfd822989b5275e6db190c1aa197bf11e0d18b14f4619816604d50666a.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          Then it is VOLUNTARY slavery. A distinction without a difference…

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Cute! God approves of slavery, so you say (1) No, he didn’t, and (2) even if he did, that’s no worse than workin’ for the Man.

          Liar. You kiss your wife with that mouth?

        • Kodie

          Ed loves slavery. His lips are 100% committed to Jesus’s ass.

        • Ed Senter

          Of course, a reprobate would call a truth teller a liar.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Of course–it’s so simple. If we just assume from the outset that Ed is correct, it all falls into place!

          I’m kicking myself for being so obtuse.

        • Kodie

          So you say slavery is good.

        • Ed Senter

          Good or bad, slavery is a fact. You can try to legislate away the bad parts, but everyone is still a slave to someone or something.
          There is even a song: “Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose…”

        • adam

          ” You can try to legislate away the bad parts, but everyone is still a slave to someone or something.”

          So who has the ability to will YOU to their children AS A SLAVE, Ed?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/6a5ce862a330f3605ae834bd01805b9f95e6c7b76e373b5245d7a0e104804989.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          The Gov’t sells treasury bonds backed only by the ability to tax the citizens. We are all slaves to the Gov’t.

        • Michael Neville

          I’ve run across some strange economic ideas before, especially from libertarians who try to push a parody of Austrian School economics, but I’ve never seen someone try to justify Biblical slavery with a misunderstanding of how government bonds work. I’m an accountant, which means I know some basic economics. I’ll try to explain government bonds.

          A treasury bond, sovereign bond or government bond is financial paper issued by a government, generally the central bank or the treasury ministry, with a promise to pay periodic interest payments and to repay the face value on the maturity date. A national government bond is a risk-free investment because the government can issue additional currency to redeem the bond at maturity. There have been occasions when a government has defaulted on its domestic debt, such as the 1998 Russian ruble crisis [LINK]. However issuing additional currency can cause inflation, which lowers the value of the currency compared to the goods and services that currency can purchase.

          Almost all government bonds are bought by financial institutions, central banks, and the issuing government itself. Most government bonds bought by individuals are either state or municipal bonds which are not risk-free but usually offer higher interest than national government bonds. There is no requirement for any individuals to buy any sort of government bond, which means Ed’s “slaves to the Gov’t” nonsense is just that, nonsense.

        • Ed Senter

          Exactly, but what backs those bonds? How does the gov’t pay off those bonds plus interest?
          Isn’t the only way for gov’t to get money through taxation? Also, isn’t inflation a type of hidden taxation?

        • Michael Neville

          Perhaps you missed my point that buying bonds was voluntary. That means that nobody is forced to buy bonds so bonds aren’t slavery.

          Like many economic illiterates, you fail to realize that taxation is the cost of government services. If you want things like police and fire protection or even esoteric things like space programs and drug regulation then you pay taxes so governments can provide these things.

          Inflation is generally not generated by governments (who usually do what they can to eliminate inflation). But I’m no up to discussing complicated concepts like the causes and effects of inflation.

          Also taxation isn’t the only way for governments to get money. Does the word “bonds” mean anything to you?

        • Ed Senter

          This is unbelievable…who said anything about buying bonds being slavery? I sure didn’t.
          A treasury bond is a debt instrument with a promise to pay at some future date. How is that debt going to be paid? With money out of the public treasury. How does money get into the public treasury? Taxes are deposited into the public treasury.
          Haven’t you heard politicians whining about future generations paying off the debt?
          Therefore, the only thing that backs gov’t debt is the gov’t’s power of taxation. That is a form of slavery.

        • Michael Neville

          This is unbelievable…who said anything about buying bonds being slavery? I sure didn’t.

          You sure did, you lying sack of shit.

          The Gov’t sells treasury bonds backed only by the ability to tax the citizens. We are all slaves to the Gov’t.

          That, you lying sack of shit, is you saying that bonds equal slavery.

        • Ed Senter

          So far all you have done is muck up the issue and call me a liar. You are incompetent.
          This is what you said, “Perhaps you missed my point that buying bonds was voluntary. That means that nobody is forced to buy bonds so bonds aren’t slavery.”
          A reasonable person would understand your statement to mean that you were equating “buying bonds” with slavery, but since “nobody is forced to buy bonds”, “bonds aren’t slavery”.
          You completely mischaracterized my statement because I said nothing about anyone being forced to buy bonds. I said that we are slaves to the Gov’t because bonds (debt instruments) issued by gov’t are backed only by the ability to tax the citizens. It is the citizens who must pay off the debt. Therefore, we are slaves to Gov’t.
          And that is a perfectly logical and reasonable statement.

        • Michael Neville

          You’re the one who claims that government bonds cause slavery and I’m the one that’s incompetent? You’re not only a liar but you’re a stupid liar. No wonder you’re a Christian, you’re too stupid to recognize the obvious inconsistencies, numerous flaws, and outright ridiculousness of Christianity (and every other religious belief).

          Go away, boy. Your feeble attempts at proselytizing, your pompous insults and your outright lying have become boring. You’re not winning any hearts and minds for your fictitious Jesus and you’re not going to. No one here has your fear of death so your promises of eternal life aren’t making any sales. In short, you’re a failure as a missionary. Go back to the Christian blogs where you’ll find people who share your silly superstitions.

        • Ed Senter

          Another dishonest, mixed up atheist bites the dust…

        • Kodie

          You are making a huge mistake here. You want to equate any kind of work with slavery, because of debt. You have to be a really dishonest ignorant piece of shit to compare owning people like they are an appliance, beating them, forcing them to stay, punishing them if they run or slack off. Is the government forcing you to stay at your job and you can’t live in your comfortable home and choose your friends, and what you do with your day? It’s a fact that most people have to work in exchange for money to live and eat and buy Russian math classes for your kids. If you want something, the bargain is you have to pay for it with something, and if you don’t have a large stack of cash in the bank vault, you generally have to rent out your labor. Is that really the same thing as being beaten and owned like a vacuum cleaner? There’s a vacuum cleaner in my closet that can’t leave because it doesn’t want to leave because it’s not a person. If I instead had a butler in the closet, and any time I want the floor clean, I say “go butler!” and he doesn’t so I kick him in the balls until he does. I mean, he gets a place to live, a 5 square foot dark closet…. he’s actually taking up space in MY APARTMENT! I should just hang him out the window. I give him some food too, but not the good stuff. On his birthday, I let him watch tv for 2 hours. So Butler has a place to live, food, and even gets to enjoy having a birthday treat, in exchange for picking stuff up off the floor any time I tell him to, which isn’t even every day, so he gets a lot of days off. A place to live, food, a generous vacation plan, and even a treat for his birthday. What more does anyone need? Having a regular job, buying things with your salary, like food, shelter, and paying taxes for the roads and the police and the libraries, that’s exactly the same.

        • Ed Senter

          The mistake is believing that “slavery” is limited to only the brutal dehumanized version (which represents only a super small percentage in the course of history) and using that as a caricature to ridicule and mock things you don’t understand.

        • Kodie

          I understand what it says in the bible – “how to own people”, and your ridiculous ignorance of this fact, and trying to excuse it as though it’s the same as having a mortgage or other kind of debt. You are a piece of shit – Christianity made you that way! Why would I want eternal life, even if your childish fantasy were real, if you’re there, owning slaves and cheering on Jesus? You fucked up moron. What you’re selling is a disgusting way to spend eternity! Good thing it’s not true, you big fucking baby. You want it so bad, you don’t care how disgusting it is, you don’t care what kind of monster you have to become. You’ll say anything not to piss off your imaginary friend, Jesus.

        • Greg G.

          Christians are so messed up with the meaning of words. Christians read that they will be persecuted, but when they are not persecuted, they call trivial annoyances persecution. Somebody saying, “Happy Holidays!” is not persecution.

          In the same way, you are trivializing slavery to being in debt. A person can declare bankruptcy if their debt is too great. Being in debt isn’t as bad as indentured servitude but in both instances, a certain amount of work allows you to end up with something you get to keep. Slavery isn’t like that.

        • adam

          Nope, you still fail to have even the slightness knowledge of what slavery really is.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fc08e92607fbb10ca5d9fec66168d9bf582a2748fa716fdb4283c37e046c25e1.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          So says the junior high smart ass. Ha!

        • Greg G.

          It says so right in the Bible.

          Deuteronomy 16:11-12 (NRSV)11 Rejoice before the Lord your God—you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female slaves, the Levites resident in your towns, as well as the strangers, the orphans, and the widows who are among you—at the place that the Lord your God will choose as a dwelling for his name. 12 Remember that you were a slave in Egypt, and diligently observe these statutes.

        • Ed Senter

          You are a slave to the world, the flesh, and the devil, rockhead.

        • Greg G.

          You are trying to think in inappropriate analogies. That is why you suck at thinking.

        • adam
        • Kodie

          All the rationalizations you have to do to ignore the ownership of humans as though they were appliances in the bible. You’re a sick fuck.

        • Michael Neville

          Yeah, Ed justifies Biblical slavery by claiming that everyone is a slave. Apparently being a basketball star making millions of dollars per year equates to being a slave who can be inherited by the owner’s children. You’re right, he is a sick fuck.

        • Ed Senter

          you are an ignorant fuck.

        • Kodie

          I don’t know why you would say such a thing to me! You’re so fucking warped. Other Christians think you are a cartoon and are offended at us about being mistaken for or lumped in with a warped backwards ignorant fool kind of Christian like you. They call you low-hanging fruit, a marginal rarity that we shouldn’t waste our time with, unlike their “true” Christianity, which they then proceed to explain how it’s different from yours, except it’s not really. I’m just saying, there’s superstition, and then there’s utter foolishness, guess which one you are?

        • Ed Senter

          What the hell are you talking about?

        • Kodie

          I’m talking about what a fool you are, and that foolish slavishness to your abuser has made you a disgusting and ridiculous human being. It’s funny how much you don’t care about being a good person at all, because you are saved just by believing Jesus can save you, making you selfish, insecure, and weak. If you can’t live forever, you can’t even figure out how to keep from slitting your wrists. It means so much to you that you don’t care about anything or anyone else. Not only are you wrong about everything because of your superstition, you are stubborn and horrible just to stay on the good side of your horrible captor (who is actually imaginary). Atheists don’t believe god exists, he’s a fictional character, but he’s your fictional character, the one you dare not recognize fault with. But you’re here, you’re a real person (I think?) and what have you got to show for yourself? What have you got going on that you need to exist forever?

        • adam

          Ed it TOO STUPID to actually understand WORDS

          Definition of employment Merriam Webster

          a

          :activity in which one engages or is employed

          but we know what you mean Ed.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/8f6da14fe703eddce996e67a273a7c0b2bebcb6544517f3f761d91d9fdd9f27e.jpg

        • adam

          “VOLUNTARY slavery”

          Oxymoron

        • Ed Senter

          This coming from a moron who would rather argue semantics than understand concepts.

        • adam

          This coming from a moron who doesnt even understand what the word slavery means in the bible

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/33db0ae24b2227b6e9d5a68e163db56f694d809309548bb015e1279858262217.jpg

        • Greg G.

          Draymond Green is making $16 million this year.The NBA promotes its stars which allows them to make more money from endorsements. The league minimum is over $815,000. Green can retire in luxury at anytime. When his contract expires, he can look for other situation and his “owner” doesn’t get a say in it. His situation is so sweet, sugar-coating can’t help. Being an NBA star or riding the bench isn’t like working on a plantation under a whip.

        • Ed Senter

          So what? Whether he is a well compensated star or a minimum wage janitor the principle is the same. And the “whip” has just been transformed to economic constraints. The whip today is rent, utilities, money for food, transportation, clothes, etc. Capitalism still requires slavery in the form of employees and 3rd world guest workers.

        • Kodie

          Ed, for once you are correct. If you are in the US and you buy stuff, you probably endorse slavery and/or child labor somewhere. It’s worse when you are poor and have to shop someplace like Wal-mart, because the life you hate being poor just means you are looking for the best prices which means someone somewhere is being exploited. We love slavery in America. But that’s not what we’re talking about, Ed. Do you buy stuff?

          We’re talking about what it says in the bible. God loves slavery as an economic system. You don’t seem to love slavery as an economic system. You don’t love it now, and you don’t really ever come out against anything in the bible except James, but if you are saying that slavery now is against your personal philosophy, then you are against god’s philosophy. God instructed how to exploit other humans by owning them or controlling them, didn’t he, didn’t he, ED. That’s from the bible only. If your only counter-argument is “it’s the same as today with people who have jobs and rent apartments or owe the bank for their mortgage, AND you consider yourself a “rugged individual*” who managed to find some way outside of this system, either you are employing slaves yourself, or you disagree with the bible.

          Which is it?

          *Also a ‘fraidy cat of the imaginary characters “god” and “the devil”, and death, and most of reality.

        • Greg G.

          Any economic system requires labor and trade. Workers get to trade. Slaves do not.

          Mice, elephants, sharks, and falcons still have to acquire food to survive.

          If a person acquires enough power, which involves risks, he or she can get others to provide those things. One can also use other people fears and superstitions to make them sacrifice things to you if you can keep them convinced they will be rewarded when they die and the sacrifices ensure that.

        • adam

          “So what?”

          So you TRY and justify slavery to justify a monsterous God.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c4e3bbea2d1e4d81dbd3798980be2ee8b39f893fee5d1d2b81b76b5e7ba184e1.jpg

          “Capitalism still requires slavery in the form of employees and 3rd world guest workers.”

          Still not slavery Ed, no matter HOW MUCH you LIE about it.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/baadaf4c80c33c90acdc126c5bea5ae76ecbf62299c02cb86c7d7be47c668796.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          How have I justified anything? I am just stating the facts.
          You can’t just pick a verse from a book that you don’t even consider true then attempt to interpret that verse without realizing the entire Bible is written within the context that this is a fallen world.

        • adam

          You are not stating facts, Ed, you are LYING.

          but that is what apologetics is all about, LYING about what the bible says to justify your own beliefs.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/33db0ae24b2227b6e9d5a68e163db56f694d809309548bb015e1279858262217.jpg

        • adam

          “Being an NBA star or riding the bench isn’t like working on a plantation under a whip.”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7727bcdfd822989b5275e6db190c1aa197bf11e0d18b14f4619816604d50666a.jpg It would be if Ed has his say….

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          It’s not OUR fault YOUR book says so many f**ked up things, Eddie-poo.

          Deal with it.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          ‘Kidnapping’ is only one classification of capture…and in context, it only deals with kidnapping other jewish people.

          Leviticus 25:44-46

          “44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.”

          So your ‘kidnapping’ point is an attempt to avoid the question by focusing on one pettifogging point that agrees with your assertion.

        • Ed Senter

          Oh, yeah? What other forms of “capture” are there that couldn’t fall under the category of ‘kidnapping’?

          And, you are missing the big picture. The Israelites were a peculiar people chosen to be God’s oracle to a fallen world. It is through these people that God would reveal his plan for the world.
          Nitpicking over what you desire to use as ridicule and mockery is just stupid. There is only two forms of slavery that count. You are either going to be a slave to God, or a slave to the world, the flesh and the devil.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Kidnapping is a kind of capture, not the other way around.

          Yes, the Israelites were God’s people, just like the other tribes of the area had their own gods (Chemosh for the Edomites, if I recall, and so on). This little Palestinian pantheon doesn’t look as impressive as God 5.0 (or whatever version you’re on now) looks like, now that he’s omnipotent and all that.

        • adam

          “Who owns their labor? ”

          They do,
          Which is why they can seek employment elsewhere.

          ” Workers are slaves.”

          I am no slave, I negotiate my salary and benefits.
          NO ONE owns me as property that they can pass down to their children.

          The point is, punk, you don’t have a point.
          AND you’re an IDiot

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/33db0ae24b2227b6e9d5a68e163db56f694d809309548bb015e1279858262217.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          If you own your labor, why are you selling it?
          Do you know the difference between voluntary servitude and involuntary servitude? It is both slavery.
          What you have described is voluntary servitude.
          And is there any condition where slavery can be forced by current law? See the 13th Amendment.
          (How did you get a job? You argue like a junior high student.)

        • adam

          “If you own your labor, why are you selling it?”

          For money to buy those things which I need and want.

          “Do you know the difference between voluntary servitude and involuntary servitude?”

          servitude
          A state of subjection to an owner or master.
          Lack of personal freedom, as to act as one chooses.
          Forced labor imposed as a punishment for crime: penal servitude in labor camps.

          I do, do YOU?

          “What you have described is voluntary servitude.”

          No, it is the polar opposite.

          voluntary

          Done or undertaken of one’s own free will: a voluntary decision to leave the job.
          Acting or done willingly and without constraint or expectation of reward: a voluntary hostage; voluntary community work.
          Normally controlled by or subject to individual volition: voluntary muscle contractions.

          “And is there any condition where slavery can be forced by current law? See the 13th Amendment.”

          Again not voluntary

          “How did you get a job?”

          I interviewed for it, as opposed to being purchased as property.

          “You argue like a junior high student”

          Well that is apparently good enough to demonstrate how utterly ignorant and evil you are.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c34fc7352daf9a5a303932581c1d6fdf6df8670ef3e0dd882dbba5653cdd2368.png

        • Greg G.

          Do you know the difference between voluntary servitude and involuntary servitude? It is both slavery.

          Voluntary means you can quit. Slavery means you get whipped. Voluntary means you can go on vacation. Slavery means you get whipped.

          You are making a metaphor of slavery then equivocating between them. You are diminishing the dehumanization that slavery does.

        • adam

          “You are diminishing the dehumanization that slavery does.”

          How else can you justify worshiping a monster like Jehovah?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/60865103a336b5d68f96eb3254e706491af8f8a5dbd80dafef9edf2beab0319d.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          No, I am not.
          You, however, are imposing your self-important “enlightenment” standards on a term that has varied meanings.

        • Greg G.

          Right. They were not in a free society. Humans have had to invent that on our own. It took a while for humans to do it because they revered the Bible and its regulation of slavery.

          Too bad God couldn’t inspire that.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          IF you have a problem with ‘enlightenment’ standards..then GTFO of the Internet, stop using electricity, medicine, spectacles, artificial fabrics, any mechanisms that didn’t exist circa 30 C.E.

          OR, accept that you’re a hypocrite and just keep silent so you aren’t so obviously holding idiotic ideas.

        • Ed Senter

          Where did the hypocrite crap come from?

        • Kodie

          Look, we know Ed’s a slave to Jesus, and so afraid that he will get whipped. We also know this makes Ed and other Christians who have to utter these contortions about slavery monsters on earth. I mean, this can’t be right, can it? If slavery is wrong, and Ed seems to know this, why would god and Jesus make it so humans would realize this at the same time have to make excuses for the immorality the bible has to offer, portraying Christians as the monsters of the world instead of the saints? What could possibly make Ed think that heaven makes him significant? If he can please his masters by looking like a victimized idiot, how is that a selling point? Does Ed even really love Jesus, or is this his way of avoiding a much worse eternity?

          Good job, god! What an insecure loser, forcing some asshole like Ed, I mean, what does god need with Ed Senter’s adoration? Pathetic!

        • Greg G.

          Ed has trouble distinguishing apologetics from reality.

        • Kodie

          It’s brainwashing. The religions do not only teach what to believe, but what all the counter-arguments for the silly things they believe to watch out for, and what to say when someone points out this or that bullshit from the bible, and also all about what atheists are like and how atheism is also a religion and evolution is a religion and atheists are drug-addicted baby-eating satanic fornicators who reject god, and how you keep after them with the proselytization to burn them, and why do we talk so much about something if we don’t believe it exists, and we must really have a god-shaped hole, and take everything “out of context”. Of course the proper context is to warp everything the bible has to say into something benign that doesn’t make us vomit in disgust. Yeah, that wasn’t really slavery, god didn’t have any choice because they were going to have slaves anyway, so he taught them how to be a little more humane, that’s all. Those people were wicked anyway, all of them, the whole city had to be exterminated like insects, but how dare you compare a clump of cells to an insect, it’s a whole human baby with all the parts waiting to grow, and ladies who want to fuck should be punished with raising it but don’t tax me, she should come to church where we’ll make sure to find a good home for her bastard.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I think he’s an apologeticist of convenience.

          Best way to test would be to get him to cross a busy street, and watch him to see if he looks both ways for safety before crossing.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “If you own your labor, why are you selling it?”

          Exchange of value, labor for currency.

        • Ed Senter

          Then you are a slave.

        • adam
        • Ed Senter

          Watchful Slaves
          35 “Be dressed for action and have your lamps lit; 36 be like those who are waiting for their master to return from the wedding banquet, so that they may open the door for him as soon as he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those slaves whom the master finds alert when he comes; truly I tell you, he will fasten his belt and have them sit down to eat, and he will come and serve them. 38 If he comes during the middle of the night, or near dawn, and finds them so, blessed are those slaves.
          39 “But know this: if the owner of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he[g] would not have let his house be broken into. 40 You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an unexpected hour.”
          The Faithful or the Unfaithful Slave
          41 Peter said, “Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for everyone?” 42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and prudent manager whom his master will put in charge of his slaves, to give them their allowance of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master will find at work when he arrives. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put that one in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says to himself, ‘My master is delayed in coming,’ and if he begins to beat the other slaves, men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in pieces,[h] and put him with the unfaithful. 47 That slave who knew what his master wanted, but did not prepare himself or do what was wanted, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know and did what deserved a beating will receive a light beating. From everyone to whom much has been given, much will be required; and from the one to whom much has been entrusted, even more will be demanded.

        • adam

          So INSTEAD of just saying human beings shouldnt own other people as PROPERTY.
          Jesus, who LACKED the morality to do so, instead tells a fable about BEATING INNOCENT slaves, and YOU think this is LOVE, doncha?

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/b31dbd3ed05fd697beb97dd8b17257f225763e065c994fc7ada63f8edf616c29.jpg

        • Greg G.

          Did you miss the point that Jesus is approving of slavery and beating slaves? Quoting the rest of the passage doesn’t mitigate that at all.

        • Ed Senter

          Did you miss the point that adam’s meme was a lie?
          Now you are lying if you think Jesus approved of slavery and beating slaves. The story was a parable using concepts common for the time.

        • Susan

          Did you miss the point that adam’s meme was a lie?

          A direct quote from your holy book was a lie?

          you are lying if you think Jesus approved of slavery and beating slaves

          He appears indifferent. Using them as a metaphor seems to be the same as using rape victims as a metaphor.

          using concepts common for the time

          He could have just explained how economies work that don’t involve owning people.

          Instead, he used a metaphor based on his indifference to the fundamental problem of owning people.

        • Greg G.

          The meme is a paraphrase but it is not a lie.

          If Jesus did not approve of slaves being beaten, he wouldn’t have used this example. He presents beating slaves as natural. Leviticus 25:46 allows slaves to be treated like slaves, after all. If Jesus opposed beating of slaves, why not just say that it is wrong to beat slaves the way it is presented in the parable?

          But Luke has softened the version of Matthew 24:45-51 where Jesus says the bad slave will be cut to pieces. Luke at least added that ignorant slaves should receive a lighter beating. Mark 13:33-37 doesn’t have the slave beating in the parable. That was added by the author of Matthew. So you have three different fictional accounts.

        • Ed Senter

          You are so hung up swinging in the trees, you fail to see the forest.
          The lesson is that Jesus is our redeemer. He is the way, the truth and the life. If you insist on having it your way, you will DIE, rockhead.

        • MNb

          Which of course is a prospect way more preferable than spending eternity in your unbearable presence.

        • Kodie

          What do I need to be redeemed for? How can a person who may have lived over 2000 years ago redeem me? You never answer these questions. This is a magical superstition you believe.

          Keys to a superstition: Believe in some kind of idol (Jesus, a shiny penny, a 4-leaf clover), will bring you (luck, meaning, fortune) if you hold onto it and keep it with you. It can be in the form of a habit (avoiding cracks in the sidewalk, prayer, dance), to bring something you don’t have (money, love, rain) or avoid something you don’t want (your mother to die, 7 years of bad luck, 70-100 pointless years with nothing you can think of to do but cry that you’ll die someday and mean nothing more than a cockroach your whole long meaningless life).

          You can’t be redeemed until you come off your bullshit. You are using your religion to abuse others, and so generally I think the religious make assholes of themselves. This is not a superstition unless you are doing it all so god loves you. I don’t know what you get out of this, Ed. You have been lied to about atheists and atheism. You believe false motivations that we must have, in addition to the stupid ways you have to distort what the bible actually says into something that doesn’t make you accidentally question your abuser. Why do Christians always have to bother people? Why can’t you shut up and keep your dumb fantasies to yourself? A 2000-year old fictional character can’t make you mean anything.

        • Greg G.

          I will die whether I have it my way or not. So will you. That fact remains that the Jesus of Luke and Matthew was not opposed to slavery and the beating of slaves.

        • MR

          Ed playing with squirrels again.

        • Ed Senter

          I may die in the flesh, but I have the promise that I will have life everlasting. You may get what you hope for which is nothing.

          Jesus did not come to bring peace but a sword, rockhead.
          So, you are all mixed up and can’t get anything right.

        • Greg G.

          Jesus said, “Turn the other cheek.” Jesus is a ventriloquist dummy that can be made to say anything. Jesus is a Rorschach test. The way a Christian describes Jesus tells more about the Christian than about Jesus.

        • Ed Senter

          Yeah, a Christian is rich fertile ground that produces much fruit. You, on the other hand, are a rockhead that no seed can penetrate.

        • Greg G.

          “a Christian is rich fertile ground” = full of horse shit

        • adam

          “Yeah, a Christian is rich fertile ground that produces much fruit.”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/65b51a914367249f1fd520e931d29188c14c827b7462e26b4f1560c5ae20d920.jpg

        • Kodie

          Have you considered that what you’re saying is really dumb? Even the bible acknowledges that it sounds really dumb. Then they rationalize why people will resist believing it by blaming the other person for being a fool or having a hardened heart, or being a swine, etc. to make gullible morons like you feel superior. That’s how marketing works, and then you feel like you’re doing us a favor, saving us from “drowning”, but you’re really just a pawn. They’re using you to get money for themselves. You’re not a slave to god, you’re a slave to the fantasy you desire – they target your insecurities and amplify them so you feel useful. You have suppressed your honest opinion about god, failing to recognize that he’s a monster and it makes you a monster. Only thing is, god doesn’t exist, but you do, and all the damage you can do running around falling for this fantasy, along with all the other Christians who think they are saved and they can act like assholes all they want because Jesus loves them anyway. You are not producing fruit, you have a case of explosive diarrhea for Jesus. It’s childish nonsense.

        • Ed Senter

          Sorry for your experience. All I can say is trust God, not people.

        • Kodie

          Are you completely unable to read?

        • Ed Senter

          Read what? Be specific.

        • Susan

          You are so hung up swinging in the trees, you fail to see the forest.

          You haven’t shown us a molecule of a tree. So, you haven’t shown us a forest.

          The lesson is that Jesus is our redeemer

          That is not a lesson. It’s a bare assertion without support.

          If you insist on having it your way you will DIE

          Long before humans existed, everything died. Often,in the shittiest ways. They still often do, including humans.

          News for you, Ed. You’re going to die too.

          We all are. We should be grateful that we live in places and times where it’s not so brutal as it could be. Most earthlings can’t say that.

          Your claim is that you will live forever.

          A bald and unsupported claim.

        • Ed Senter

          So when you refuse to understand the Bible, you just dismiss it as “not evidence”?
          The claim is supported by the Bible, rockhead. Believe it or don’t believe it. I don’t care.
          “Only a fool says there is no God”. Why? Because the alternative is NOTHING, rockhead.

        • Michael Neville

          We do understand the Bible. That’s one major reason why we dismiss that collection of myths, fables and lies as not being evidence.

          “Only a fool says there is no God”.

          As usual you don’t know what we actually say. A few atheists say “there are no gods” (remember that your favorite sadistic bully is not the only god that people have) but most of us, including Susan and me, say “we don’t believe in gods”. Now if you were half as smart as you pretend you are, you’d realize why we say that, but since you’re a dumbass I’ll have to explain it to you. We don’t believe in gods because there’s no evidence for gods. You’ve been told this before but you won’t accept what we say about what we believe and why.

        • Ed Senter

          I have listened to what you actually say and you are not intellectually honest.
          It is one thing to say “I don’t believe the evidence”, it is quite another to say “there is no evidence”. In legal circles, that is the difference between challenging the factual sufficiency of the evidence verses the legal sufficiency of the evidence.

        • Michael Neville

          You’re hardly the one to talk about intellectual honesty. You’re the one who lied about your precious Bible not giving rules for chattel slavery. Furthermore I didn’t say “there is no evidence.” I said “the Bible is not evidence.” So that’s another lie on your part.

        • Ed Senter

          I never said the Bible has no rules for chattel slavery. I said that rules for slavery can not be used to support some emotive drivel like “God condones slavery”.
          And, “there is no evidence” vs. “the Bible is not evidence” is a distinction without a difference.

        • MNb

          If your god hadn’t condoned slavery he should simply have forbidden it instead of setting rules, silly. Ah well, what else can you expect from someone whose belief system is build upon fear for not existing.

        • adam

          Definition of condone

          :to regard or treat as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/33db0ae24b2227b6e9d5a68e163db56f694d809309548bb015e1279858262217.jpg

          Definition of may
          1 a archaic

          :have the ability to

          b
          :have permission to

        • Michael Neville

          Let us pretend that your Bible is inspired by your hypothetical god. If this god hadn’t wanted people to own other people then there would be a commandment: “Thou shalt not own another person.” That, coupled with your Bible giving rules for chattel slavery, tells me that your god condones chattel slavery. Just because you don’t like the idea that your sadistic monster of a god is immoral doesn’t mean that your sadistic monster of a god isn’t immoral. Since your propaganda actually brags about your god’s immorality, then you have no choice but to accept you worship an immoral god. QED!

          And, “there is no evidence” vs. “the Bible is not evidence” is a distinction without a difference.

          Tell me, Ed, are you (1) stupid, (b) very stupid, or (iii) incredibly stupid? The point that you don’t recognize that there may be other evidence besides the Bible tells me that you’re (D) SUPER FUCKING STUPID!

          I now withdraw my claims that you lied since I now realize that you’re too stupid to understand what other people are saying.

        • Ed Senter

          My goal is clarity so let’s see who is really stupid.
          I made the distinction between the “factual” vs. “legal” sufficiency of the evidence. Whether you understand it or not, you were making a claim on the legal sufficiency of the evidence. Now it appears you realize your error and want to challenge the factual sufficiency, that is, the Bible is evidence but you don’t believe it or think it is not enough to conclude “God exists”. Fine. As individuals, each of us get to be the trier of fact.

          As for slavery, God forbid the Israelites to kidnap anyone. That would include capturing anyone for the purpose of enslavement. Therefore, claiming God “condones” slavery of the type that fits your caricature would be error. There is voluntary and involuntary slavery.

        • Michael Neville

          No, you stupid twit, I’m saying that your Bible is not evidence because it’s a collection of myths, fables and lies. That mean, shit for brains, that it is not a truthful document and cannot under any circumstances be considered evidence for anything. I don’t realize any error because I haven’t made one. All your tapdancing, handwaving and general bullshit just tells me that you’re too arrogant and/or stupid to admit that you’re wrong.

          Your Bible gives rules on how to treat chattel slaves. You and your fellow Christians believe the Bible is at least inspired by your immoral god and some even say it was dictated word for word by the sadistic thug you worship. That means that according to your own Bible your god approves of chattel slavery, just like he approves of killing people because he feels like it, like he approves of genocide and rape, and is generally an asshole.

        • Ed Senter

          You are very opinionated but no very educated.

        • Michael Neville

          Did you pull that out of the same rectum where your pulled your stupid shit about me being molested?

        • Ed Senter

          You were the one talking about giving God a blow job, dude.

        • Michael Neville

          And your point is what, fuckhead?

          I am not a dude but you are a fuckhead. But I won’t call you one if you don’t call me dude. Do we have an understanding?

        • MR

          In other words, you can’t counter Susan’s points; so you resort to calling her rockhead. Do you suppose Jesus would be proud?

        • Ed Senter

          There were no points to counter.
          Jesus said that if you don’t understand the parable of the sower, you won’t understand anything.

        • MR

          You’re being a douche bag for Jesus. You’re a lousy example for your religion.

        • Greg G.

          Because the alternative is NOTHING, rockhead.

          We are here, so that’s something. So, your religion is wrong about that, too. When your brain ceases to function, you will be dead. It will be like the previous 13 billion years of the existence of the universe before your brain began to function. No problem. Don’t worry about it.

        • adam
        • MNb

          Ýeah, your belief is not build upon reason. Your faith is the result of fear. You need a psychologist. This type of irrational fear is called existential fear. I overcame it by myself when I was 9 or 10 years old, a few years before I was confronted with the god question.

        • Ed Senter

          Define ‘reason’.
          Maybe what we have here is a failure to communicate.

        • MNb

          Reason does not include your fear for not existing.

        • epeeist

          If you insist on having it your way, you will DIE, rockhead.

          And as ever, the descent to ad baculum.

        • Ed Senter

          Wrong again.
          Throwing someone a life preserver and you refusing to use it is not an appeal to force.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “Throwing someone a life preserver”

          THAT one again…

          Based on your own book, the one supposedly throwing the life preserver is the asshole who shackled chains around me and threw me in the deep end in the first place.

          Since there’s no evidence your book’s superstitious asshole exists, the rest of your analogy falls flat.

        • Ed Senter

          Pray tell, how did he do that?

        • Kodie

          This delusional need to “save” anyone from your asshole of a father (who happens to also be imaginary) just makes you look like a pathetic loser. You’re just a pawn, the church makes money and you get nothing. What was so great about the commission? You didn’t get it, more for them. There’s no substance in anything you say. The problem here is you just don’t fucking get it.

        • Ed Senter

          I am a slave to the truth, that is all.
          I don’t care one way or the other whether anyone is “saved”. The church is full of error. And the “great commission” is imposed on the restored Kingdom of Israel during the millennium.
          Oh, I get it. I get a lot. “Peals before swine” and “the parable of the sower” come to mind.

        • Kodie

          Once again, that’s the bible, a marketing device, appealing to your ego to get you to buy a story they full well realize comes across to others as utter bullshit.

        • Ed Senter

          Of course it comes across as bullshit to the rockheads who are damned.

        • Greg G.

          Only the gullible fail to realize it is fiction.

        • Kodie

          It comes across as bullshit to anyone who can read and be honest at the same time.

        • Ed Senter

          To anyone who can read and be honest would recognize that the story has not ended.

        • Kodie

          Ed, the bible tells you “this is bullshit” over and over again. Like a used car salesman, it says “trust me” but it’s clearly bullshit.

        • Ed Senter

          I am sorry you feel that way.

        • adam
        • Michael Neville

          Telling someone who’s standing on a dry hill that if he doesn’t get an imaginary life preserver to protect him from a non-existent flood comes pretty damn close to a threat, especially if the words “you will DIE” are uttered.

        • Ed Senter

          Funny, that is what the scoffers said to Noah…
          But, unless you are totally delusional, you know you are going to die. There is no doubt. God is offering a way out of what is inevitable.
          …and Jesus said it would pretty much be like it was at the time of Noah before he returned.

        • Michael Neville

          Since Noah is a totally fictitious, never happened, only idiots and Christians believe that bullshit, complete myth, your rebuttal is a failure.

        • epeeist

          Throwing someone a life preserver and you refusing to use it is not an appeal to force.

          Your analogy doesn’t go far enough. The only reason we are supposedly in the water is because your god put us there in the first place.

        • Ed Senter

          No, we are in the water because Adam didn’t trust God and ate the forbidden fruit.

        • Kodie

          So you worship a petty asshole because you believe a story about fruit and you’re afraid to die.

        • epeeist

          No, we are in the water because Adam didn’t trust God and ate the forbidden fruit.

          And your god didn’t see this coming?

          So your god threw us in the water and said that the only way out was to accept his life preserver, otherwise we could drowned.

          Sounds like a threat to me.

        • Ed Senter

          -another stupid atheist argument…
          You hear it as a threat because you are obstinate.
          God could have created an automaton, but he didn’t.

        • adam

          “God could have created an automaton, but he didn’t.”

          And yet that is what Heaven is all about.

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/f6edead041781202f80c75d015d387e6cc53a861b9cb5dd846e0f4dd40a5805a.jpg

        • Greg G.

          Hell is a threat. It’s an empty threat except to those who believe it is real.

        • adam

          “God could have created an automaton, but he didn’t.”

          How do you explain yourself Ed Automaton?

        • Ed Senter

          I have free will just like you and everyone else.

        • adam

          I dont have free will.

          My will is levitation and invisibility.

          You, apparently just have very low expectations.

        • Kodie

          I don’t think you do. You think you are making a free choice, but your answers sound like you are held hostage, and any minute, your captor decides to cut off another finger, or your whole hand, or your ear, or stab you right in the eye, or just end you, you freely choose to report your captor is a wonderful guy, so good, and he’s good because he’s the one with the knife and you’re the one with the rope digging into your wrists.

        • Ed Senter

          How do you come up with such a morbid analysis?

          The truth is that we all must eat or we will die.
          Christ is the bread of life. If you do not partake, you will die. I can not make it any simpler.
          You can choose to plug into the source of life or not. If you don’t, you will die.

        • Kodie

          Because of the words you say. You sound like you have a gun pointed at your head by Jesus.

        • Kodie

          Why can’t you even be honest? If the bible says god condones slavery, why don’t you say “yeah, so slavery must be ok”. You need to lie about it or god will strike you dead and send you to hell. So god would rather pass a liar up to heaven than someone who agrees with his own views on slavery. You are the stubborn one here. Apparently, god needs people in heaven who have no individuality at all, who can’t think for themselves or speak with their own mind. You are the automaton. Maybe it has never occurred to you, but there is nothing about you anyone here finds worthy of emulating. So, “follow Jesus and be a boring monstrous abuse victim for eternity, just like Ed Senter” isn’t really helping your campaign. If we take 100% of everything you’ve said so far, that’s all it amounts to.

        • Ed Senter

          God does not condone slavery and it is not ok. However, slavery is a fact in a fallen world.
          And we are not to follow Jesus in the sense of emulation. We are to make Jesus LORD.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Wow. You’re just a blatant liar, aren’t you? God sets the rules for slavery, and you pretend that he doesn’t?

          What does it say about you that you worship this genocidal SOB?

          You’ve hard that every man is your teacher? You’ve got a bunch of smart atheists here that could teach you some things, but you refuse to learn. That’s a missed opportunity.

        • Ed Senter

          Smart atheists? Ha! You guys are nothing but a bunch of junior high smart asses.
          What is pitiful is that you think you can interpret a book that you believe is just made up nonsense, and understand a God that you don’t even believe exists?
          At least Satan believes and he is destined for hell.

        • Michael Neville

          We’re smarter and more knowledgeable than you, Ed. Not that that’s a particularly great achievement.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I’m just letting the Good Book speak for itself. The Pentateuch makes clear that God is fine with slavery. You’re the one who’s dishonest about what it says.

          And baby Jesus cries.

        • Ed Senter

          Let’s see, The Pentateuch was written at a time that God had just lead the Israelites out of Egypt where they themselves had been “slaves”, then they encounter nothing but hostile enemies on their way to The Promised Land. Then, on the outskirts of their destination, they lose faith and whine about all of the giants. God makes them sit it out for 40 years to ponder their faithlessness. All the while, these “Chosen people” are surrounded by heathen societies where slavery of the worst kind is everywhere and worship of false gods is the norm.
          You make it sound like God lays down the laws in order to set up some kind of Utopia, or he ought to. Ha! The Israelites never keep the Law and the Old Testament is a record of that. Now some stupid, small minded atheist wants to point the finger at God claiming “God condones slavery”! Ha!

          I just have to shake my head at all of the things you miss on the way to satisfy some emotionally driven need to ridicule and mock. You might read the Good Book, but you clearly don’t understand.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Now some stupid, small minded atheist wants to point the finger at God claiming “God condones slavery”!

          Uh, yeah. God condones slavery.

          You can’t take the moral high ground and lecture me for being an idiot for rejecting your well-reasoned arguments until I’ve rejected your well-reasoned arguments. Got any? So far, you’ve just been the guy who’s bluffing at the poker table. You never have anything. Something? Even a pair of 2s?

        • Greg G.

          I have a 3 high. Is that good?

        • Michael Neville

          That’s bad when you’re playing seven-card stud.

        • Greg G.

          I got four treys and three deuces. I should fold.

        • Ed Senter

          You say “God condones slavery”? A God that you don’t believe exists? That ‘s crazy.
          So how does an atheist explain slavery and all the other evils in the world? Can’t blame God because he don’t exist. Not your problem? Don’t have problem with it?

        • Greg G.

          God is a character in the book. That character condones slavery. Try to keep up.

        • Ed Senter

          So you are just full of shit. Got it.

        • Greg G.

          Read the OT.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You say “God condones slavery”? A God that you don’t believe exists? That ‘s crazy.

          Yeah, that’s a real curve ball. How can one comment on characters that don’t actually exist?

          Here’s a fun one for you, Ed: “Superman wears a red cape.” Whoa … mind blown.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Ed laid down a jumble of unconnected cards. “Mic drop!” he said, as he reached for the pile of chips.
          https://www.paulphuapoker.com/wp-content/uploads/14720029558_f22276cf41_z.jpg

        • Ed Senter

          If Superman promised eternal life to his followers, I would certainly check it out.

        • Greg G.

          Let’s see, The Pentateuch was written at a time that God had just lead the Israelites out of Egypt

          No, it wasn’t. The Israelites were never in Egypt in large numbers. That is a fictional story.

        • Ed Senter

          You are really crazy. Changing the facts in a story which you don’t believe. At least 600,000 Israelite men on foot left Egypt.

        • Susan

          Changing the facts

          When did you start caring about facts?

          A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[37] and archaeologists generally agree that the Israelites had Canaanite origins.[38] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains are in the Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite.[39] Almost the sole marker distinguishing the “Israelite” villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.

          in a story which you don’t believe

          Because no reason has been provided to believe it’s anything but a story.

          At least 600,000 Israelite men on foot left Egypt.

          And Paul Bunyan had a giant blue ox named Babe

        • MR

          The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult objects are those of the Canaanite god El

          And Asherah. Earliest Israel worship included God’s wife. Monotheism evolved later. If anyone happens to be near the Dead Sea Scrolls exhibit, it contains many examples of cult worship items of both El and Asherah by early Israel and recounts in more detail what you outline above–if you listen carefully to the audio guides.

        • Ed Senter

          Well, I suggest you look up ‘Hyksos’. and site your source.

        • Susan

          I suggest you look up ‘Hyksos’ and site your source.

          I’m not doing your homework for you, Ed. All the archaeological evidence suggests that Exodus was a story, not history.

          If you have something useful to contribute on the subject, provide it.

        • Ed Senter

          You quote something but provide no source. Why would I do your homework?
          From what you provide, no rational person could conclude, “All the archaeological evidence suggests that Exodus was a story, not history.”
          Even your thing says the issue is in dispute. You are not an honest seeker of knowledge.

          If you would google ‘Hyksos’, you would find that there was a people that immigrated from the Asian region into Egypt about the same time that the Bible claims the Israelites were there. They were shepherd kings. Most of their graves have been destroyed by grave robbers, but from some graves that were found, they match the same people described by the Bible. There was a sudden disappearance of these people from Egypt.
          And, the Bible is a record of the Jewish people’s history, and there is no reason to doubt it. They still celebrate the Passover from Egypt 33 centuries later. If you think that is all a made up story, then you are just sick.

        • Susan

          You quote something but add no source.

          Sorry. I thought I added the link. I just edited the comment to add it.

          Here it is again. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

          I googled “Hyksos” and the first thing that came up was

          Traditionally, only the Fifteenth Dynasty rulers are called Hyksos. The Greek name “Hyksos” was coined by Manetho to identify the Fifteenth Dynasty of Asiatic rulers of northern Egypt. In Egyptian Hyksos means “ruler(s) of foreign countries”, however, Josephus mistranslated Hyksos as “Shepherd Kings”.

          I read the Wikipedia page and have no idea what connection you are trying to make between Hyksos and enslaved Israelites.

          .

        • Ed Senter

          The Biblical account says the 70 decedents of Jacob went down to Egypt as rulers or shepherd kings because Joseph was already there and was a ruler. They were in Egypt for 400 years and it was only at the end of this time that they were slaves. If you put 2 and 2 together you get Hyksos in, Israelites out. Makes sense.
          And just because they found little evidence for an exodus does not mean it did not happen. Absence of evidence doesn’t mean much.

        • Greg G.

          Egyptian archaeology finds no trace of the Israelites in large numbers at any time. Israeli archaeology shows no disruption of culture at the time they were supposed to have been wiping out the Canaanites. The archaeology shows similar culture all over except that some sites had pig bones and some didn’t, which strongly implies that the Israelites were just a slightly different religion than their neighbors.

          The Bible gives 600K men of soldiering age which means there was an equal number of women, plus their parents and children. They also brought livestock. All but one of them is said to have died in the desert. Deserts are dry so they are good at preserving bones. If the story was true, one should be tripping over human and livestock bones all the time but diligent searches have not turned up the evidence that would be there if the story happened.

          That is why archaeologists have abandoned the term “Bible archaeology”. They originally thought they were confirming the Bible with their findings but, more often than not, they were refuting the stories.

        • Ed Senter

          Yet, the Jewish culture still celebrates the pivotal event, Passover, some 33 centuries later commemorating this fictional event? yeah, right.

        • Kodie

          One way or the other, it makes you a monster. You are so afraid of your abuser that if you don’t say what it wants to hear, you will be damned to hell. That means you’re an inhumane monster LIKE YOUR LORD.

          What the fuck does he even need with you? You’re pus.

        • Ed Senter

          All the Lord wants from me or anyone else is TRUST.

        • epeeist

          another stupid atheist argument

          Nah, just following the chain of causality backwards.

          You hear it as a threat because you are obstinate.

          If someone throws you in the water and won’t let you back into the boat unless you prostrate yourself and vow to worship the person who threw you there in the first place then why I am wrong in seeing this as a threat?

        • Ed Senter

          Because you are only in the water because you believed you had the power to walk on the water. You were wrong.

        • Michael Neville

          You have the reading ability of a concussed dung beetle. epeeist specifically said: “If someone throws you in the water….” Why don’t you reply to what people write instead of what you want them to write?

        • adam
        • epeeist

          Because you are only in the water because you believed you had the power to walk on the water.

          So your god threw humanity in the water because it had a mistaken belief. Not only is your god vindictive it is so completely arbitrarily.

        • Ed Senter

          No, Adam fell into the water because he found out after he ate the fruit, the devil had lied. Adam wasn’t like God. And it wasn’t a “mistaken belief”. Adam disobeyed a direct order and chose to trust the devil instead of God.

        • epeeist

          No, Adam fell into the water because he found out after he ate the fruit, the devil had lied.

          This analogy is getting very close to breaking point.

          The (non-existent) Adam didn’t fall into the water, he was thrown into it by your (non-existent) god, an “omniscient” god who didn’t foresee “Adam” eating the fruit and an omni-benevolent god who not only punished Adam and (the equally non-existent) Eve but all the generations of humanity since.

        • MNb

          Plus the punishment Eve and all women since then received was withdrawn when that (non-existent) god wanted ….. to punish some of them.

          Gen. 20:18 “For the LORD had fast closed up all the wombs of the house of Abimelech, because of Sarah Abraham’s wife.”

        • epeeist

          So what kind of make-believe do you think Ed is going to come up with this time in an attempt to rescue the bible and its god?

        • MNb

          No idea – the only answer I ever got was “of course closing up wombs is a punishment!”

        • epeeist

          “of course closing up wombs is a punishment!”

          Just about everything is:

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXQR-cPXlmY

        • Greg G.

          The Bible would be a more palatable read if God hadn’t forgotten to close up the wombs of the Canaanites when the Hebrews were leaving Egypt so that when they arrived in Canaan, there would be nothing but aging childless couples needing help. The Hebrews would have allowed them to live out their days as adopted parents since the Hebrew’s parents were already dead.

        • MNb

          Yeah, apparently the OT god is omni everything except for omni consistent.

        • Ed Senter

          What you have stated is a stupid caricature of the atheist’s twisted rendition of the Judea-Christian doctrine. What you left out is that God, before the worlds were formed, had a redemption plan in place to be used if necessary. God did not decide to redeem fallen angels. God created man to fill the void left by those fallen angels. Hence, God did not create an automaton. He created man with a free will. Adam freely chose to eat of that tree. God did not “punish” Adam and his descendants. God separated Himself from them, then implemented the redemption plan.

        • Kodie

          We know what you believe, it’s just that you’re not at all studious of the implications. It’s not a caricature of what you believe, it’s what you believe actually amounts to, if you were smart enough to think about it.

        • Michael Neville

          Ed, do you seriously believe there was an actual Adam and Eve living in a place called Eden? You think that stuff happened rather than was a metaphor?

        • Greg G.

          If it’s stupid, Ed believes it. The more absurd, the stronger his faith in it.

        • Ed Senter

          I have no reason to think it didn’t happen just as it says.
          Metaphor or not, the concept is sound. And it is in line with the rest of the Bible.
          I exist. I am not so much concerned with how we got here as to where we are going. The finality of death is not an acceptable option. The Bible promises eternal life and I am going to learn everything I can about it.

        • MNb

          “The finality of death is not an acceptable option. The Bible promises eternal life”
          Thanks for confirming that your belief is build upon wishful thinking.
          I promise you that you will be the owner of a bridge in Beijing if you pay me 100K Euro. God told me so himself.

        • Ed Senter

          I have already debunked the “wishful thinking” BS.
          You just don’t have the courage to step out in faith.

        • adam

          “I have already debunked the “wishful thinking” BS.”

          Nope, you havent, Ed.

          You are LYING AGAIN.

          “You just don’t have the courage to step out in faith.”

          neither do you, Cowardly Ed

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/3c478e32eb0617f37259237e99fd6f27c3182687119418b1b2cee635210c0dbc.jpg

        • MNb

          Brilliant, Ready Eddie! Your second sentence does exactly the opposite of what your first sentence falsely claims.
          Thanks for saving me the work, no matter how easy.

        • Ed Senter

          What I can’t figure out is whether you refuse to understand or you simply lack the capability to understand.

        • MNb

          What I have figured out a long time ago is your love for crap like false dilemmas.

        • Michael Neville

          If Ed didn’t have false dilemmas or other fallacious arguments then he’d have nothing but insults and his fear of death to use.

        • Greg G.

          If angels can fall, what makes you think dead humans won’t fall, too? How long have you ever gone without pissing God off with a sin? Do you think you will last an eternity? Remember that the first people to get to hell get the coolest spots. Those evicted from heaven will get stuck with the hotter spots. The hottest spot goes to the last person kicked out of heaven.

        • epeeist

          What you left out is that God, before the worlds were formed, had a redemption plan in place to be used if necessary.

          And you know this how precisely?

          So your so-called god wasn’t sure that things wouldn’t work out the way that his omniscience said it would.

          He created man with a free will.

          So your purportedly omniscient god has no clue as to what I will be deciding to do today.

          God separated Himself from them, then implemented the redemption plan.

          And you know this how precisely?

        • Ed Senter

          1. “8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Rev 13:8
          2. God may or may not be omniscient. God is in control of everything, but we still have free will.
          3. You have free will to do anything you can do. Omniscience is not a prerequisite attribute of God- only omnipotence.
          4. Given the creation story, God’s separation because of Adam’s choice is the only thing that makes sense.
          “18 Therefore just as one man’s trespass (Adam) led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness(Jesus Christ) leads to justification and life for all.” Romans 5:18

        • adam
        • epeeist

          And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Rev 13:8

          Sorry, but the bible is the claim, not the evidence. As it is those words don’t even appear to address my question to you.

          God may or may not be omniscient. God is in control of everything, but we still have free will.

          How can your god be in control of everything but still allow us to have free will? This would be in contradiction to libertarian free will.

          You have free will to do anything you can do. Omniscience is not a prerequisite attribute of God- only omnipotence.

          So your god is only omnipotent, you are ditching omniscience and omni-benevolence. So why should we call such an entity “god”?

          Given the creation story, God’s separation because of Adam’s choice is the only thing that makes sense.

          Well I am glad you used the word “story” because so far you haven’t demonstrated that it is anything more than this.

          Therefore just as one man’s trespass (Adam) led to condemnation for all

          Let’s ignore the fact that this is just another quotation from your book of stories and take it at face value. It re-emphasises the point that your god condemns everyone for the actions of one person.

          It would seem that our justice system and ethics are better than those of your god.

        • Ed Senter

          One thing is for sure, epee, you have no ethics. You are either dishonest or lack thinking skills.
          Christianity has a redemption plan. Your beliefs lead to nothing but death. And, your beliefs are little more than wishful thinking because they are all made up nonsense.
          What is the evidence for YOUR justice system and YOUR ethics? Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die?

        • epeeist

          One thing is for sure, epee, you have no ethics. You are either dishonest or lack thinking skills.

          A response which tackles none of the points I made and instead simply resorts to ad hominem.

          Christianity has a redemption plan.

          But nowhere have you demonstrated the truth of your “redemption plan”.

          Your beliefs lead to nothing but death.

          And once more the ad baculum.

          And, your beliefs are little more than wishful thinking because they are all made up nonsense.

          Yet nowhere do you attempt to warrant this assertion.

          What is the evidence for YOUR justice system and YOUR ethics? Eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we die?

          So, a straw man and a false dichotomy to finish off with.

          As it is I tend towards a Rawlsian contractualism, you can find justification for this view in Rawls book A Theory of Justice.

        • Ed Senter

          Instead of arguing points, you claim I am breaking the rules. (strawman, ad baculum, ad hominem, ad nauseum…) Ha!

          So you want a demonstration of the truth of God’s Redemption Plan? He is hiding in plain sight- Jesus Christ rose from the dead!
          You want proof of the Resurrection? Go to drgenescott.com and check it out.

          As for John Rawls, do you tend toward him because he was an atheist, or are you a Utopian dreamer? Trump put a temporary block on that Supreme Court consisting of Justices determining what is “reasonable” or “unreasonable”. Yeah, that’s what we need. A Supreme Court of dictators. Not.
          As for me, I tend towards a system contemplated by Frederick Bastiat, The Law. The purpose of gov’t is not to cause justice, but to prevent injustice.

        • Susan

          I won’t exclude this option, but then she (he?) deserves a price for being the very best in the history of internet.

          You aren’t making points. You are committing fallacies which don’t support your points. He’s not claiming you are breaking the rules. He’s pointing out that fallacious arguments are not arguments.

          You’ve committed every fallacy he accused you of committing.

          He is hiding in plain sight.

          That’s a meaningless statement. My Immaterial Snowflake Fairies are hiding in plain sight too.

          You want proof of the Resurrection? Go to….

          I’m tired of linking to pamphlets that random idiots on the internet expect me to read and that never seem to lead where they suggest they do.

          In your own words, how does Dr Eugene Scott, late night television preacher “prove any sort of resurrection”?

        • Ed Senter

          Go to pastormelissascott.com and hit “proof of the resurrection”. You will not get a silly pamphlet. You will get a 52 minute lecture from a Stanford University PhD. proofing the fact of the Resurrection which is the basis of all Christianity. He debunks most of the silly idiot atheist’s denials. I have done a lot of it, but he does a much better job.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Summarize the evidence for us.

        • Ed Senter

          Jesus was either a nut or who he said he was- God incarnate.
          The Resurrection was the only proof of what he said was true.
          The Disciples either reported the truth or they lied. They reported that they met the risen Christ and that he ascended into the clouds after 40 days. Then there was a cataclysmic change on Pentecost when the Spirit descended upon them. They all died horrific deaths save John. They all died in different locations without changing their report. You don’t die a martyr’s death for a lie.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Jesus was either a nut or who he said he was- God incarnate.

          Or the stories could be legendary.

          The Resurrection was the only proof of what he said was true.

          Well, there you go then. If all you have are the weak second-hand stories from 2 millennia ago, find something else to believe in.

          The Disciples either reported the truth or they lied.

          The authors of the gospels did neither. They documented their church’s story.

          They reported that they met the risen Christ and that he ascended into the clouds after 40 days.

          Or 1 day, if you believe Luke.

          Then there was a cataclysmic change on Pentecost when the Spirit descended upon them. They all died horrific deaths save John.

          All except John? Show me.

          They all died in different locations without changing their report. You don’t die a martyr’s death for a lie.

          Respond to my post on the subject.
          http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2015/01/who-would-die-for-a-lie-another-weak-christian-argument/

        • Kodie

          First of all, you think this is a historical document, when it’s fiction. Secondly, plenty of people die for what they believe, even if it’s false, it’s called being in a cult. Thematically, it sounds like someone tied up all the loose ends to weave this fantastical tale. Of course all the disciples saw an amazing feat by their hero! Of course they died as martyrs! You think this is hard work? Bob S and others have confronted you with other religious texts, and you don’t have any valid answers. Their stories are tied up neatly too, but you easily dismiss them – if I recall, it’s because the promises they offer aren’t to your preference.

        • Michael Neville

          You don’t die a martyr’s death for a lie.

          Does the name Horst Wessel mean anything to you?

        • MNb

          S**t, I should have thought up this one myself. Excellent.

        • Ed Senter

          I had to look it up. Not sure about the connection, but if you are claiming he died for a lie, did he know it was a lie?

        • MNb

          “Jesus was either a nut or who he said he was- God incarnate.”
          Eddy is ready for yet another logical fallacy – the false dilemma.

          “You don’t die a martyr’s death for a lie.”
          Then Hitler spoke the truth. Many SSers died at the Eastern front for him between 1941 and 1945.

        • Ed Senter

          1. You don’t show how it’s a false dilemma.
          2. Maybe the SSers believed the lie. Way to many other factors for a comparison.

        • MNb

          1. You can’t think of other options, while even CS Lewis could? Your stupidity is hilarious. Oh – if you want to understand why Lewis’ Trilemma is false, ask BobS.
          2. Factors you carefully omitted, factors that make your argument “You don’t die a martyr’s death for a lie” totally void.

        • Greg G.

          Jesus was either a nut or who he said he was- God incarnate.

          Or he was a mythical legend with stories about him saying lots of crazy things.

          The Resurrection was the only proof of what he said was true.

          The early Christians believed in the resurrection because it was implied in Isaiah 53 and Zechariah 3.

          The Disciples either reported the truth or they lied.

          Or they were fictional characters in a story.

          They reported that they met the risen Christ and that he ascended into the clouds after 40 days.

          The New Testament isn’t even consistent about that. The 40 days isn’t in the gospels.

          Then there was a cataclysmic change on Pentecost when the Spirit descended upon them.

          That is a fairy tale based on Josephus’ quote of the Sibylline Oracles.

          They all died horrific deaths save John. They all died in different locations without changing their report.

          Yes, and some of them died more than one death in different cities. That shows that the early Christians were making up stories to show that their own apostolic lineage is more noble than the church in a different place in the Roman Empire.

          You don’t die a martyr’s death for a lie.

          You don’t know what they believed. You don’t know whether they believed a lie. You don’t know that their death was related to their faith. You don’t know whether they existed.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          They all died horrific deaths save John.

          That’s according to the 16th c. Foxe’s Book of Martyrs. The best “contemporary” record (from about 200CE, so not very contemporary) has 5 not martyred.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I’m assuming you watch the videos because she’s hot.

        • adam
        • adam

          “What you have stated is a stupid caricature of the atheist’s twisted rendition of the Judea-Christian doctrine.”

          Let’s see how that works

          “What you left out is that God, before the worlds were formed, had a redemption plan in place to be used if necessary”

          And you know this HOW? Ed

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/c4e3bbea2d1e4d81dbd3798980be2ee8b39f893fee5d1d2b81b76b5e7ba184e1.jpg

          Because you are creating like you create your own “God”.

        • adam
        • Greg G.

          You are not throwing life preservers. They are tantamount to Life Savers, little ring-shaped, artificially fruit-flavored candies which might shorten your life with diabetes.

        • Ed Senter

          You can’t get anything right. Life Savers sweeten your life!

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          I see you throwing attempts at insults and idiotic assertions, but I see precious little (in fact, NO) evidence.

          Your rhetoric is painfully inadequate, and indicative of your emotional insecurity and unwillingness to actually live your faith. You want to be able to claim objective justification for your faith, aka having your cake and eating it, too.

        • Ed Senter

          What do you mean by, “actually live your faith”?
          The evidence is the Bible. Believe or not believe. That’s the choice.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          The evidence is the Koran. Believe or not believe. That’s the choice.
          The evidence is the Book of Mormon. Believe or not believe. That’s the choice.
          The evidence is Dianetics. Believe or not believe. That’s the choice.

          … and so on for the rest of the world’s religions.

        • Ed Senter

          If your point is that one is no better than the other, I disagree.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I’m afraid you clicked Post without providing your evidence!

          (Or was an evidence-free comment your intention?)

        • Ed Senter

          You are the one with the problem. Have you got a question?
          I understand that you don’t believe the Bible. I do.

        • adam

          You will DIE, too Ed.

          show us even one person who does not die.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          If you mean the ‘bible’ is a lie…well, I could get behind that.

        • Kodie

          I get now why god didn’t command against slavery – it’s because you are also a slave to him, faithful and loyal only to him, and kneel at his feet and call him good, so you don’t get the beatings.

        • Greg G.

          I recently read somewhere (probably in this forum) that kneeling for prayer is the position slaves took so their hands could be bound if the master desired.

        • Ed Senter

          Whether you want to believe it or not, you are a slave to the world, the flesh, and the devil. The only thing you have to look forward to is DEATH.

        • Kodie

          What a sore loser you are. You have a fantasy. I have life. It’s hard, and yes, sometimes I feel a slave to a system, like having to work to eat, having to keep doing chores a thousand times. That’s not to say I have nothing to look forward to. You think life is a waste, you are waiting for DEATH. That’s what you’re looking forward to, because the only meaning you can figure out, that you are a slave to, is that if you get nothing after you die, you might as well slit your wrists and end it.

          Why are you here?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “You think life is a waste, you are waiting for DEATH.”

          ^^^ and THIS is why xtianity had to make suicide a sin *really* *early* on, because a LOT of xtians were suiciding as the express lane to their ‘heaven’.

          INNNNteresting, no?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Nope. I’m IN the world, IN my flesh, you’ll have to demonstrate this ‘devil’ since I believe in it no more than I believe in your ‘god’.

          I have a wonderful happy life to look forward to continuing, since I don’t have artificial nonsensical superstitious strictures put on my behavior to make me fearful and destroy the enjoyment of each day, each minute, I have.

          And yes, I *will* die. So will you. Since there’s no demonstrated ‘after’-life, we’ll both be gone. But I’ll have lived a fuller, richer, more satisfying life than you’re likely to, hemmed in by the strictures you’ve trapped yourself in with fear of the supernatural.

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t fear the supernatural in the way that you mean. I look forward to it.
          And, you are truly delusional and self-centered if you think you “have a wonderful happy life”. How do you account for all of the suffering and tragedy all around you?

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          “Who owns their labor? The employer and landlord.”

          WRONG. The *laborer* owns his/her labor, and the employer/landlord RENTS it.

          So much wrong, so little right…you’ve got some f**ked up notions, dude!

        • Kodie

          How they make reality sound so frightening. I almost feel sorry for Ed.

        • Michael Neville

          Ed is absolutely terrified about his inevitable death. He hopes and prays for an afterlife so he can keep on living forever.

        • Ed Senter

          As any rich dude will tell you. They don’t work hard for their money. Their money works hard for them.
          The rich don’t get rich working for a living. They get rich getting others to do the work for them.
          Slavery by any other name is still slavery!

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          What did it mean in 15th century BC? Did you read all of the other verses dealing with slavery in the Bible? Do you know that slavery is still practiced today? etc.

          Pretty much what it meant in the US in 1800.

          Yes.

          Yes.

          The humor is failing to see the irony that there is little difference between a slave, employee, or tenant.

          I’m missing the humor. There’s a great deal of difference between slave (illegal) and employee and tenant (legal).

          If you’re saying that life sucks for some people, that’s quite true, but modern employees are not slaves.

        • Ed Senter

          Whether legal or not, one group has only labor as capital, and the other group profits from labor besides owning capital that is not labor, such as land.
          The haves and the have nots.
          What was adam’s meme other than mock that which he doesn’t understand?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Labor vs. management? That’s all that matters? No wonder you think that biblical slavery is A-OK. What’s hard to understand, with your coarse viewpoint, is how you find a distinction between indentured servitude + slavery for life in Hebrew times vs. American times.

        • Kodie

          You choose to ignore that the bible describes the ownership of actual people who are not free to look for a more agreeable situation.

        • Ed Senter

          And you choose to candy coat slavery with your post industrial age semantics.
          Let’s say you buy a house with a huge mortgage and interest. You are every bit a slave to that bank. You are owned. You can’t quit paying without losing the house or selling it.
          You have entered into voluntary servitude.
          At least God prohibited involuntary servitude and usury. And He also provided for redemption and forgiveness of debt after 6 years and the year of jubilee.

        • adam

          ” You are every bit a slave to that bank. You are owned. You can’t quit paying without losing the house or selling it.”

          BECAUSE the BANK OWNS THE MORTGAGE, until you pay it off.

          “You have entered into voluntary servitude.”

          Not at all, the bank doesnt OWN me.

          servitude
          A state of subjection to an owner or master.
          Lack of personal freedom, as to act as one chooses.
          Forced labor imposed as a punishment for crime: penal servitude in labor camps.

          IS THE POLAR OPPOSITE of:
          voluntary

          Done or undertaken of one’s own free will: a voluntary decision to leave the job.
          Acting or done willingly and without constraint or expectation of reward: a voluntary hostage; voluntary community work.
          Normally controlled by or subject to individual volition: voluntary muscle contractions.

          “At least God prohibited involuntary servitude ”

          No, God condones involuntary servitute

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/fb4831e1694c2ba934736efcb24fc7f67501a3f169ecaeac7e1a8fd31de3d3f6.png

          You are losing it Ed

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/7b4b196ac9ef2c0c44ccfdda5945b947192e261a355b78dff68175d1612e13b6.png

        • Ed Senter

          Oh, I am sorry. I assumed adam was an intelligent poster. Not.

        • adam

          NO, you didnt you LIAR.

          Plus, you are the one too stupid to understand actual words and their meaning.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          poster adam is more than intelligent enough to see through your apologetic pettifoggery.

        • Kodie

          I’m not a slave to the bank. They can’t beat me or put me in jail, and so they really can’t even force me to pay for a house loan. They don’t own me. A slave is like a washing machine or a lawn mower. You own that thing, and you can treat it however you want. It can’t choose to leave your home and work at someone else’s house. A slave is like that. You own it, you don’t care about it like a person, you don’t treat it humanely like a person, you don’t care what it wants. An employee or a tenant or a mortgage holder is not like that. Maybe the employer doesn’t care exactly what you want, but they don’t own you like an appliance. They know you are able to walk out, and you can go home, or look for another place. They have to treat you as a human and not like a file cabinet.

        • Ed Senter

          And God prohibited the kind of slave and treatment by which you speak.

        • Kodie

          Nope!

        • Greg G.

          The humor is failing to see the irony that there is little difference between a slave, employee, or tenant.

          Ed, you are not seeing the difference between a Bible slave, a Bible indentured servant, and a Bible hired hand. The Bible hired hand is like an employee. The slave is not like an employee. The slave’s children belong to the master. The master’s children inherit the slave. If someone injures you, you can sue them. If someone injured a Bible slave, the owner gets the payment of the cost of a new slave. If the master injures a slave (by knocking out a tooth or an eye), the slave goes free with no money to fend for himself and the owner has to buy a new slave to replace him.

        • Ed Senter

          I said LITTLE difference. Do you have a point?
          A you are ignorant for not seeing that the servant who bore his ear to the door because he took a wife and child and loved them was a type of Christ as the suffering servant.

        • Greg G.

          You think the fact that a employer owned your children is a little difference?

          I know about that trick how the master could con an indentured servant into becoming a permanent slave by using family values. The indentured servant served for six years, then was paid at the end. If the slave decided to become a permanent slave, he could by having his ear bored and vowing that he loved his master. One way to scam the indentured servant into doing this was to allow him to have a wife that was a slave owned by the master. At the end of the indenture, the indentured servant could go free and leave the slave wife and all of his children with the master or become a permanent slave, and the master wouldn’t have to pay him generously from his stock. The rich could use family values against the naive young man.

          Deuteronomy 15:12-17 (NRSV)12 If a member of your community, whether a Hebrew man or a Hebrew woman, is sold to you and works for you six years, in the seventh year you shall set that person free. 13 And when you send a male slave out from you a free person, you shall not send him out empty-handed. 14 Provide liberally out of your flock, your threshing floor, and your wine press, thus giving to him some of the bounty with which the Lord your God has blessed you. 15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God redeemed you; for this reason I lay this command upon you today. 16 But if he says to you, “I will not go out from you,” because he loves you and your household, since he is well off with you, 17 then you shall take an awl and thrust it through his earlobe into the door, and he shall be your slave forever.You shall do the same with regard to your female slave.

          No see how Exodus spells out how the scam can be used by the literate to take advantage of the illiterate or uneducated.

          Exodus 21:2-6 (NRSV)2 When you buy a male Hebrew slave, he shall serve six years, but in the seventh he shall go out a free person, without debt. 3 If he comes in single, he shall go out single; if he comes in married, then his wife shall go out with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall be her master’s and he shall go out alone. 5 But if the slave declares, “I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out a free person,” 6 then his master shall bring him before God. He shall be brought to the door or the doorpost; and his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him for life.

        • adam

          “A you are ignorant for not seeing that the servant who bore his ear to
          the door because he took a wife and child and loved them was a type of
          Christ as the suffering servant.”

          “You think the fact that a employer owned your children is a little difference?”

          https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/a18a3237d360e002dbdd901e4a3f5688a3463b7d939dbc595090ceadb5ae4faa.png

        • Michael Neville

          Atheists use a very superficial understanding of the Bible in which to ridicule and mock. I haven’t found many to be intelligent.

          Two things about this:

          1. We’ve discovered over the years that our understanding of the Bible is generally superior to that of Christians. You’re an excellent example, you fail to see the difference between a chattel slave, an indentured servant and an employee. Deuteronomy goes into some detail about the differences between these three classes, specifically how each was to be treated and when the two types of slaves (Hebrew and “foreign”) could be freed.

          2. You may not like being mocked but you’re a whiner, which calls for mockery. I make the strong suggestion that you do some serious shutting about about “Adam is a punk” because the regulars on this board don’t seem him as one. If you don’t like Adam then block him but regardless, you really have to stop whining about him in particular and atheists in general.

        • Ed Senter

          However you define ‘slave’, atheists love to hold it up as ridicule so they must consider it always evil, eh?
          Just what is the difference between chattel slavery, indentured servitude, employment, share cropping, tenancy, etc.? Is it little or big?
          They all have nothing but their labor to offer as capital. They all support the enrichment of another person who has capital other than their own labor.

        • Michael Neville

          As usual, you’re wrong. Why do you need an atheist to explain your “holy” book to you?

          Indentured servitude is not evil and that’s basically what slavery of Hebrews amounted to. It was slavery of foreigners, i.e., non-Hebrews, which was chattel slavery. A Hebrew would be freed after seven years, a foreign slave could be inherited like any other property by the master’s children. A Hebrew could not be beaten by his master, a foreign slave could be beaten to death as long as he or she didn’t die for a day or two. If you don’t see that as evil then you’re beyond help.

          I suggest that you learn some economics before you talk any more about labor and capital. The two are not synonymous.

        • Ed Senter

          If you think God condoned slavery, then you are beyond help.
          In a world strictly based on agriculture, conquest, tribalism, inheritance, and other aspects of a fallen world, slavery became an economic reality.
          God specifically forbade involuntary servitude. Exodus 21:16
          Even the laws of the U.S. forbid involuntary servitude. There is no law against voluntary servitude or forced servitude in connection to a conviction for a crime.
          And, when a man has no land or little or no money, his labor is often considered is only capital, smart guy.

        • Michael Neville

          There are specific rules on how to treat slaves in the “God inspired” Bible. If your god didn’t want slavery to happen then he would have changed one of the unnecessary commandments, say, the one on taking God’s name in vain, and replaced it with “thou shalt not own another person.”

          I’m done with you, Ed. Now that you’re LYING about what’s in your Bible then I have no reason to believe anything you say.

        • Ed Senter

          Your emotionally driven needs outweigh your ability to reason. Calling me a liar is stupid.

          There are a lot of things in the Bible. There are also a lot of things NOT in the Bible.
          God didn’t want Adam and Eve to eat that forbidden fruit. But they did.
          We are all slaves. The only choice is between being a slave to the world, the flesh and the devil, or a slave to God.

        • HairyEyedWordBombThrower

          Your ‘god’ gave an order which the supposed ‘adam’ & ‘eve’ had no referent, not knowing what good and evil were. That same ‘god’, if the story is true, set up a ‘gotcha’ situation where something is forbidden, making it more attractive than it would be otherwise, then harshly punishes disobedience when THERE WAS NO NEED TO HAVE THE TREE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.

        • Ed Senter

          The tree was placed there for one reason: To always remind man that God was their Creator and Sustainer. God gave man free will, but reserved the right to limit that freedom. The forbidden fruit was there to limit that freedom, that is, God was the boss. All they had to do was STAY AWAY FROM THAT DAMN TREE.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          So you’re saying that Adam and Eve made a moral error. Why is that surprising since they didn’t have moral knowledge yet? Why punish them for what was inevitable?

          And explain to me why God’s original plan was for humans to be ignorant of morality.

        • Ed Senter

          What does morality have to do with it? If a private in the army disobeys his commanding officer, do you call that immoral? Of course not. It’s called insubordination.
          Adam and Eve disobeyed a direct order. They believed a lie which was by knowing good and evil they would be like God.
          What they were ignorant of was death. They knew not death.
          Before they ate of the tree, morality was a non-issue. They communed with God and everything was perfect.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          What does morality have to do with it?

          Having a senior moment, Ed? It was the Morality Tree, remember? They learned about morality after they’d eaten of it, so it wouldn’t be fair to demand moral judgment before. Or is this going over your head?

          If a private in the army disobeys his commanding officer, do you call that immoral? Of course not. It’s called insubordination.

          Are we assuming that the private understood right and wrong and understood that disobedience was wrong? Then that’s no parallel with Adam and Eve.

          Adam and Eve disobeyed a direct order. They believed a lie which was by knowing good and evil they would be like God.

          That’s quite another story but an interesting one. The serpent is the good guy in the story. Everything he said came to pass! God was the liar.

          Before they ate of the tree, morality was a non-issue. They communed with God and everything was perfect.

          Having mentally handicapped people to tend his Garden seems like an odd Plan A, but I guess you’re stuck with it.

        • Ed Senter

          Who told you it was a “Morality Tree”? You have been snickered.
          What they learned from eating from the tree was THEY DIDN’T BECOME LIKE GOD.
          God removed his covering of glory and now they were naked. They were now on their own. They covered themselves with fig leaves. God required the covering of animal skins which was the first vicarious sacrifice.
          The serpent was the liar.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I think the word you’re looking for is “snookered.” And you’ll have to explain that. I was simply using “morality tree” as shorthand for “Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Seems like a reasonable shorthand. You disagree?

          Of course they became like God. Before, only God knew good/evil. Afterwards, Adam and Eve did, too. If they’d had access to the Tree of Life, they would’ve been even more so.

        • Ed Senter

          Question: How did they become like God?
          Bob’s Answer: _______________________
          (they now know good and evil- is not an answer)

          If it was just God and the two humans, what would be good and what would be evil? It is all a matter of relativity. Morality is what ‘should’ be done. The only law at that time was “don’t eat from that tree”.
          My contention is that it was not a “morality tree”. That tree was an “authority tree”. It represented God’s sovereignty. The humans had free will. That tree reserved God’s right to say “no”.

        • Greg G.

          Genesis 3:22 (NRSV)22 Then the Lord God said, “See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—

          If the tree was not a “morality tree,” how did man become like one of “us” knowing good and evil? The tree changed the man so it was not just an “authority tree” test.

        • Ed Senter

          What you are saying is that the fruit was magical that imparted knowledge. What knowledge? That is silly and does not mesh with the rest of the Bible.
          The verse you quote is sarcasm.

          What is reasonable is that when they ate of the tree, God separated Himself from them. Something was removed being the life source.
          When Jesus was crucified, the redemption plan was complete and the veil in the Temple was rent indicating man now had access to God. And Paul said that Christ was now in us.

        • Greg G.

          What you are saying is that the fruit was magical that imparted knowledge. What knowledge? That is silly and does not mesh with the rest of the Bible.

          If you accept that they had to be removed from the Garden to keep them from eating from the Tree of Life because they would live forever, then it follows that a Tree of Knowledge could be expected to impart the knowledge it it named for.

          The verse you quote is sarcasm.

          That is supposed to be God speaking in that verse. But, what the hell, it’s a fairy tale.

          What is reasonable is that when they ate of the tree, God separated Himself from them. Something was removed being the life source.

          It’s as reasonable as Frodo having to throw the Ring of Power into the volcano where it was formed. But it is not reasonable in reality. It is unseemly for grown-ups to pretend this is a real event.

          When Jesus was crucified, the redemption plan was complete and the veil in the Temple was rent indicating man now had access to God. And Paul said that Christ was now in us.

          Paul made up the bit about the crucifixion. The circumcision faction of Christianity didn’t agree with that and the gospels put them as witnesses to the crucifixion.

        • Ed Senter

          You are not honest enough to even debate. You just say the opposite.
          Par for the course with an unbeliever.

        • Susan

          You are not honest enough to even debate

          Yet another bare assertion from a guy who can’t defend a single one of his series of hundreds of bare assertions.

          Par for the course for unbelievers.

          I keep asking you why we should believe you Ed.

          It’s an honest question. You’ve never provided an honest answer.

          What are you claiming and how do you support it?

        • Ed Senter

          What makes you think it is my job to convince you of anything?

        • Greg G.

          I am very honest. You have built your life around fairy tales.

        • Ed Senter

          Let’s see how honest. What is the meaning and purpose of your life?

        • Greg G.

          The meaning and purpose to my life are my personal concerns. There is no teleological, fairy tale meaning or purpose to my life.

        • Ed Senter

          So you just make up any meaning and purpose to your life. That is called fantasy- a figment of your imagination.
          And because I believe there is a meaning and purpose to life that is by design, you call that a “fairy tale”? Ha!
          You are not honest, wiz.

        • Michael Neville

          It’s funny how a guy whose purpose and meaning of life is built solely around his fear of death has the chutzpah to sneer at someone doesn’t share that fear.

        • BlackMamba44
        • Greg G.

          Does your life have so little meaning to yourself that you need a fairy tale to give it meaning? Believing your life has meaning because of the Master of the Universe is the fantasy.

        • Ed Senter

          Now you are a hypocrite as well as a liar.
          The meaning and purpose of YOUR life is a fairy tale. There is no objective purpose to it. You eat, sleep, maybe procreate, then you die. No different than any other animal.

        • Greg G.

          I appreciate that I get to live. I am sympathetic to animals, too. There doesn’t have to be an objective purpose. The meaning is subjective. I know this. You have to pretend that your life has objective purpose. That diminishes your subjective meaning.

        • Bob Jase

          Honestly, Ed’s purpose of being a brainless terrified ass-kisser to a petty tempermental deity forever under the constant threat of being found unworthy and torured for eternity is diminishing enough.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Do they ever stand back and wonder if they’re portraying a pleasing image? So much of the Christian argument is “But wouldn’t it be nice if there were an all-good god?” And yet they come here with no arguments, often acting like dicks.

          Yeah, sign me up for that.

        • Kodie

          Whatever god wants is “good” and what is bad is good, except when you’re bad to me, that’s bad, but I’m saved, so I can be nasty to you, threaten you, whatever I need to do to protect my beliefs, but then a lot of them think they’re being polite. What was that SS guy who denied hating gay people because he hugged them a lot, never did I ask if he asked them permission first or just assault them, but they think they don’t hate gay people if they believe they are loving gay people trying to save them by being nasty and intrusive and warning them they better go straight because their life isn’t right for god. I can’t fucking stand their spin on concepts, like hurting someone you say you love because you want them to change to your own superstition, which they wouldn’t do if they didn’t care. There’s love and acceptance, but the “love” of trying to make sure someone cowers to their imaginary friend Jesus isn’t love. That’s the poison they learn at church, to deflect valid criticism and go ahead and be a Christian asshole to anyone you want.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Maybe I should write about Stockholm Syndrome (Battered-Wife Syndrome) sometime.

        • Ed Senter

          Subjective meaning means squat. Why do feel the need to denigrate someone’s objective meaning? Do you want to take every one down the same death tunnel that you are destined?

        • MR

          But what is your objective meaning?

        • Ed Senter

          I already said- look up the thread. My meaning and purpose is by design- God’s design.

        • MR

          What is it? You haven’t answered what it is. How can you be critical of someone else’s meaning and purpose if you don’t even know what your own is? What is your objective meaning and purpose?

        • Kodie

          So you can’t describe what (you believe) your purpose is.

        • Kodie

          Ed, do you have any family or friends?

          I think you think it helps in your abusive relationship with your LORD, if you could recruit others, you wouldn’t feel so alone with your only meaningful friend, Jesus (who is imaginary). Whoever else in your life that you might mean something to, might love you, you reject that as “squat”. It’s subjective, they are only temporary earth mates, and their opinion of you doesn’t count.

        • https://www.jonmorgan.info Jon Morgan

          So you’re allowed to denigrate our subjective meaning (meaning that we can demonstrate), and we’re not allowed to denigrate your objective meaning (a meaning that is asserted but not demonstrated)?

          I don’t want to take people down a “death tunnel”. I do want them to acknowledge that the best information we have available is that we are mortal and that consciousness is tied to our body and ceases at death. I think the value of accepting reality comes from its truth, not from whether that reality is pleasant or unpleasant.

        • Ed Senter

          I didn’t denigrate anything. I merely pointed out the hypocrisy.
          What you call “truth” is nothing but circumstance. The body could just as well be a temporary dwelling place.

        • Kodie

          Maybe that’s what Jesus meant about hating your family. Pathetic Christians talk so much about family values, and life – from their mouths, at least the priority in essence, even if the execution is warped (like pro-forced birth, hetero-marriage only, for some examples), and then I thought that honor thy mother and thy father, some of that “because I said so” bullshit. It seems really important to them to be alive, even if you can’t or won’t enjoy it, that you got born, and then let the chips fall – and then you’re a loser if you don’t get married and have children like some kind of livestock. I don’t really get the point at all of the extreme breeders like quiverfull, except they’re not allowing themselves to use birth control, although it seems rather intentional to me, that people who have more than 10 kids actually wanted to join that trend and it wasn’t just oops x19. They become managers of a household like a business, where there are no personalities, not conforming to the system is not an option. What does god want with people who live their lives as though they were churned out of some assembly line? I imagine some past era when having a lot of kids did sort of just happen to some people, and I’ve seen the hilarious movies where they have to run their homes like a factory because there’s no other way to handle it, but they aren’t part of some movement to produce 20 of the same exact model.

          Anyway, so Ed probably means a lot to some living person somewhere, maybe several, maybe they even depend on him for their shelter and education and sustenance, and that’s just not good enough for Christians like Ed. He hasn’t mentioned a family whatsoever, so maybe he did abandon everyone for Jesus, just like Jesus said to do. He has to keep feeling good about that decision, he needs it to be true because he threw everything else away. Who really knows. What I do know is that most of the Christians by here seem to have some social attachments like a family, spouses, children, parents, siblings. But their love, adoration, appreciation, validation, of them is drained completely of value compared to god. Only god’s opinion and validation matters to these pathetic pieces of shit. Without god, these attachments aren’t even real to them. So why do they care so much when some people want to use birth control or have sex without marriage or be gay or be married and gay or be gay parents to children who need parents.

          Ed is surviving through this conversation by the thin thread of your opinion doesn’t matter at all to him. Why does he think his opinion matters to us? The problem with Christians who believe they are saved, and waiting around to die to their alleged glory is why they think they need to fuss at all about earthly matters and try to rearrange politics and society to suit the environment they prefer? I don’t know a whole lot of biblical shit like you do, but I’m pretty sure the whole point about Noah’s Ark was that god did not intend to punish everyone on earth for sinning. He’s not throwing hurricanes at people because of abortion, or causing earthquakes to get back at Japan for attacking Pearl Harbor*, or twisting up tornadoes to warn us all about homosexuality. I mean, so what he said was he promised not to flood the earth, that’s going by their bible, but that’s something I would take as a broader metaphor that god didn’t intend to punish earthlings directly anymore with massive disasters, yadda yadda yadda – Jesus. You got your sinners, some of them are dealt with in the legal system, but some of them get away, so we have hell to send the rest after they die. That’s the difference I get between Noah and Jesus.

          If there’s a Jesus, why the fuck do Christians even get involved? Is it because they know there’s no god? Is it because they doubt there’s a heaven or hell? Seems like any Christian who gets involved in this petty earth stuff, like, say, with us, while dismissing their family’s love as totally meaningless in itself, doesn’t really have faith that god will take care of us, or pretend that they care so much about us that they have to spew so much bullshit pretending to throw life preservers, and of course the “It’s not my job to convince you” trash, or the “pearls before swine” rationalization. And so Ed, and his counterpart, ohara, don’t care about being correct, or making sense, they tried their best, they failed, they chalk it up to the recipients of their message being typical assholes without recognizing their own assholishness.

          *We talk about Hitler and Stalin, but I don’t know if there’s ever been a natural disaster of any magnitude that was felt to punish those countries for the assholes in charge at a time much later… weird that it’s easier to cheer on god when he’s punishing some population you shouldn’t even hate for something their government did long ago, and which our own government technically already repaid in abundance. But not for Hitler or Stalin or bin Laden for that matter, and then some heartland town gets bashed and we’re going to spin that some other way than a severe warning with bad aim. Why wouldn’t god punish people for being the worst kind of Christians – racists, creationists, anti-intellectual, trump-voters, etc. When a bible belt state gets socked, it’s always something other than a warning.

        • MR

          What is your objective purpose?

        • Ed Senter

          What is the purpose of your question?

        • MR

          You were criticizing the others for not having an objective purpose. What is your objective purpose?

        • Ed Senter

          I was not criticizing anyone. Go back and read the thread.
          What I was doing was exposing wiz for the liar and hypocrite s/he is.

        • MR

          What is your objective purpose?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          I read the thread and can see no lying or hypocrisy in what Greg G said. Show us.

        • Ed Senter

          1. He said, “I am very honest”.
          2. Then he said, “There is no teleological, fairy tale meaning or purpose to my life”.
          3. He admits he just makes up meaning and purpose to his life.
          That means he is not honest.
          4. He still insists that the meaning and purpose of my life is “that you need a fairy tale to give it meaning.”
          A hypocrite is someone who hides behind a mask criticizing others while he himself is guilty of the same thing.

          The wiz says that I live a fairy tale while he himself lives a fairy tale.
          First, I exposed his lie, and second, I exposed him for the hypocrite he is.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Everyone creates their own purpose for their lives. If you want to imagine some sky daddy does so, good for you–that then becomes how you create your purpose for your life.

          Your argument is bullshit.

          2. You say there is some sort of objective meaning? You’ve not shown us.

          3. Yeah, everyone does.

          Ask for a dictionary from Santa.

        • Ed Senter

          “Your argument is bullshit.”

          So is yours.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Say, I’ve got an idea! Why don’t you defend your point?

          Are you saying that objective meaning exists? I’d like to see that: show us. Are you saying that this objective meaning is reliably accessible by ordinary people? I’d like to see that as well.

          Or you can just continue acting like you’re on the playground.

        • Ed Senter

          I believe in God. I believe the Bible is God’s revelation to man.
          I believe God is absolute. If there is no God, then there are no absolutes.
          If there is any meaning and purpose to life, it is by design. God’s design.

          You can call that a creed. You can call that a fantasy. I don’t care.

          If there is no God, then life is nothing but freak random nonsense.
          Everybody can just fantasize whatever temporary meaning to life they desire. In the end, however, it still means nothing.

          So the choice is clear.
          Follow God, or follow your own selfish desires to nowhere.

        • MR

          Then what is your meaning and purpose?

        • Ed Senter

          My meaning and purpose is God’s meaning and purpose.
          That is bring all of creation together with Christ as head.

        • MR

          Oh? Where does it say in the Bible that all of creation will be brought together? Haven’t you said you believe in Hell? Clearly that is incompatible with your claimed meaning and purpose. And, how does this give you, Ed Senter, objective meaning and objective purpose? God couldn’t achieve those things without you? If you didn’t exist, would anyone, God, or the universe, care or notice? What meaning and purpose exactly do you bring to the table? Are you so important, Ed? I don’t think so. I think if you never existed nothing would change. So, again, what is your objective meaning and purpose. For real this time.

          edit to add: I like how you raise yourself up to the level of God. In some circles that would be blasphemy. Personally, I think it’s a reflection of your own hubris. You’re the kind of Christian that I imagine when I think of the scripture, “Not all those who cry, Lord, Lord….”

        • Ed Senter

          “In all his wisdom and insight 9 God did what he had purposed, and made known to us the secret plan he had already decided to complete by means of Christ. 10 This plan, which God will complete when the time is right, is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head.
          11 All things are done according to God’s plan and decision; and God chose us to be his own people in union with Christ because of his own purpose, based on what he had decided from the very beginning. 12 Let us, then, who were the first to hope in Christ, praise God’s glory!” Ephesians 1

          I have to wonder, MR, where you are coming from. It is not about me. I am just thankful I get to go along for the ride.

        • MR

          is to bring all creation together, everything in heaven and on earth, with Christ as head.

          Ah, thank you! You’ve demonstrated for me yet another contradiction in the Bible!

          I am just thankful I get to go along for the ride.

          Precisely. You don’t care about objective meaning and purpose. You have none. The argument appeals to a selfish desire to live forever. Or, perhaps, a fear of death. It’s not about objective meaning or objective purpose. Look how long you squirmed at answering the question. If Ed never existed, nothing would change. He’s just thankful to go along for the ride. No meaning, no purpose. Just let me live forever. That’s Ed! What, after all, could possibly be your objective meaning and purpose?

        • Ed Senter

          You are obsessed with this “selfish desire to live forever”. Why?
          What you missed is that you don’t get a ticket for the ride without first making Jesus Lord.
          “Paul, a slave to Christ Jesus…” Romans 1:1

        • MR

          You are the one talking about living forever. Without an objective purpose or meaning, it’s all you have.

          I don’t need to hang my hat on fairytales.

        • Ed Senter

          What you hang on to leads to death.
          I have eternal life.
          A fairy tale? We will see what is fake and what is real.

        • MR

          As I said, a selfish desire to live forever. I don’t need to hang my hat on a fairy tale.

        • Kodie

          So you have no evidence, only threats. Your dad can beat up my dad because that’s what losers say when they’re losing.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          No one cares about Pascal’s wager.

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t care about Pascal’s wager, either.
          Because you can’t buy salvation, and neither can you just believe. It takes faith which is action. God knows the heart which can’t be faked.

          What is interesting is that I search for every reason to believe, whereas, you search for every excuse not to believe.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Nope. I put myself in the way of every Christian argument I can find. There’s never anything there.

          I’m beginning to lose my open-mindedness.

        • MR

          I search for every reason to believe.

          That about says it, doesn’t it. When I was beginning to doubt Christianity, I searched for the truth knowing full well that if God existed he would give me the certainty I needed. Ed doesn’t search for truth, he searches for a reason to believe.

        • Michael Neville

          Ed doesn’t search for truth, he searches for a reason to believe.

          This is the difference between Ed and us. He wants to believe and so doesn’t care if evidence to support that belief is present or not. We want to know what’s true. Ed’s god and every other god have no reasonable reason to support their existence and so we don’t believe. If reasonable evidence is presented then we’ll reconsider our position.

          Ed needs to believe, we don’t have that need.

        • Ed Senter

          That is exactly what Satan would say.
          Your mind never was opened.

        • Michael Neville

          You know what’s weirder than having an imaginary friend? Having an imaginary enemy.

        • Ed Senter

          C.S. Lewis wrote a series of books on that subject, “The Screwtape Letters”.

        • Michael Neville

          You are aware that The Screwtape Letters (which I have read) are fiction. Plus that has nothing to do with my contention that having a imaginary friend like Jesus is less weird than having an imaginary enemy like Satan.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Fun! Just assume that your position is right and declare everyone else wrong! Where do I go to join the Tight-Ass Christian Club of Holy Sanctimony? I’d love to be able to look down on other people with the certainty that I was right in every argument.

        • Greg G.

          You keep using death like you think we fear it the way you do. That is Pascal’s Wager whether you want to admit or not.

        • Greg G.

          What is interesting is that I search for every reason to believe

          But you are doing it sans evidence. That is a problem.

        • Ed Senter

          Not true. I have the best evidence which is the collection of books called the Bible.

        • Greg G.

          That’s the best evidence you have. The gospels are fictional accounts based on the literature of the day, which not uncommon. The early epistles do not support the gospel accounts of a teacher/preacher. All the epistles say about Jesus can be found in the Old Testament. So you do not have any evidence.

        • Ed Senter

          The epistles of James, John, Peter, Jude, and Hebrews were written to Jewish believers awaiting the return of Christ to set up the restored Kingdom of Israel. They all warned to not be deceived by false teachers and prophets.
          Paul wrote his letters to gentiles revealing the mystery of the Church as the Body of Christ. He also warned against false teachers and prophets. He also believed Christ’s return was imminent.
          Your uneducated opinion and illogical conclusions about “fictional accounts” in no way discredit these epistles as evidence.

        • Greg G.

          Whoever the letters were sent to is irrelevant. They were sent out for public reading and distributed. The letters show that James read Galatians and responded to it. Romans shows that Paul read James and responded to some of the points in it.

        • Ed Senter

          Wholla! We have best evidence…

        • Greg G.

          Right, so the person that Paul called “the Lord’s brother” in Galatians 1:18 responded to him but barely mentioned Jesus, only to say that he was “a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ” and called him “our glorious Lord Jesus Christ” but never mentioned that he was a brother. This shows that Paul was being sarcastic when he called him “the Lord’s brother” because he sent people places under human authority (even Peter kowtowed to him) (Galatians 2:11-12) the way the Lord sent Paul (Galatians 1:1, the oddest letter opening in the New Testament). Paul also called someone “the brothers of the Lord” in 1 Corinthians 9:5 because they were doing things under human authority (1 Corinthians 9:8). Paul was very sarcastic in Galatians, even wishing the circumcisers would go the whole way and emasculate themselves (Galatians 5:11-12)

        • Michael Neville

          As you’ve been told many times before, we have no REASON to believe. There’s no evidence that any gods exist. You know about evidence, don’t you? It’s that thing that’s entirely missing from your sermons about your pretend, imaginary, doesn’t existent god.

        • Kodie

          NOBODY MISSED THAT ED! What we missed was the evidence that this is anything other than your greed for relevance to THE ENTIRE FUCKING UNIVERSE!

          Anything less than being significant enough to get a ticket for eternal life is just a pile of shit for ARROGANT (AND DELUSIONAL) ED SENTER.

          Why don’t you answer the goddamned fucking question instead of diverting to your preference, your arrogance, your BULLSHIT.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You are obsessed with this “selfish desire to live forever”.

          You’re not? I thought that was a key part of your Christian belief.

        • Ed Senter

          Truth is the obsession- life eternal is part of the package.

          What I believe the greek is worried about is that he believes no rational person could believe this Jesus stuff. There must be “selfish” reasons. He is wrong.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          the secret plan he had already decided to complete by means of Christ

          What is this? Christianity as mystery religion? Is this Gnosticism or something? Careful! This could be considered heretical in some circles.

        • Ed Senter

          It is “made known to us”, that is, those looking “with Jesus glasses”.

        • Michael Neville

          That does sound more refined than “we pulled that shit out of our asses.”

        • Susan

          That does sound more refined than “we pulled that shit out of our asses.”

          Just barely.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You’re taking on the mantle of the Great Commission? News flash: that was given to the apostles.

        • Ed Senter

          Correct- the Great Commission was given to the apostles and will be carried out during the millennium by the restored Kingdom of Israel.
          I am merely a member of the Body of Christ.

        • Michael Neville

          No, dumb ass, the choice is believe in a fictitious, imaginary, has not a shred of evidence to support its supposed existence god or try to make the best out of life that one can. You’ve decided to go with superstitious bullshit, we’ve decided to go with reality.

          Ed, give it up. We’re not only not buying the nonsense you’re trying to sell, we see no reason to buy it. We don’t want, desire or need your magic sky pixie, we live happy, satisfying, meaningful lives and, unlike you, we don’t have a fear of death which only belief in a fantasy will relieve.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You start off stating what/who you believe in. I don’t. I have nothing to explain or justify. You do.

          If there is no God, then there are no absolutes.
          If there is any meaning and purpose to life, it is by design. God’s design.

          Atheists and Christians create their own meaning. You say it comes from God? Show us.

          If there is no God, then life is nothing but freak random nonsense.

          And yet atheists disagree. Their lives have plenty of meaning. I guess you’re wrong.

          Everybody can just fantasize whatever temporary meaning to life they desire. In the end, however, it still means nothing.

          Do you want to try again and state something coherent?

        • Ed Senter

          I am beginning to realize that our communication problem is as simple as I am capable of abstract thought.

        • MNb

          “I am capable of abstract thought”
          Now only if you would demonstrate it – let alone linking back to the practice of our natural reality again.

        • Greg G.

          The problem is your inability to connect your abstract thought with reality. You believe your imagination.

        • adam

          “Keep an open mind, but not so open that your brains fall out”

        • Kodie

          I’m so sorry you are too greedy to enjoy what life you get. What a petty moron you are.

        • Kodie

          Someone other than Greg G. asked you a question and you deflected. Don’t you have an answer that doesn’t sound stupid?

        • Kodie

          Just another doll in god’s dollhouse?

        • Greg G.

          You say your life has objective purpose but you can’t identify it. You pretend your life has an objective meaning but you haven’t bothered to pretend what the purpose is?

        • MR

          It sounded like a good gotcha for the atheist when he read it on some apologetic website, but he didn’t bother to think about it himself. It shows just how shallow his own beliefs are. Christians don’t care about objective purpose anymore than anyone else. They just want to live forever. That’s their “objective objective.” A selfish desire to live forever.

        • Greg G.

          You nailed it.

        • Kodie

          What is your purpose Ed? To wait around until you die? We’re animals, we’re not that different from other animals. I don’t know why that’s just so hard for you to face. I really wonder what you think your purpose is. A lot of times, I think Christians say things like they are trying to find their purpose, sometimes like singing or something like that, or being a nurse, helping others. If someone is in a serious accident and almost died (or were in some kind of near-miss situation where it could have gotten fatal), they often will say god isn’t done with me yet, they need to figure out why god needs them on earth. So from what I understand, and you’ll correct me if this is just the famous “not a true Christian” kind of “purpose” chatter, god apparently needs you dollies to walk and dance and pose around his dollhouse in some such a way as he prefers. As far as I can tell, Christians think their purpose is on earth, during their life, to have interactions with other people. And not everyone has the same purpose – you think he needs Ed Senter to serve this way and Ted Denter to serve some other way, and they are all ultimate to his own purpose.

          Why is that a purpose? It’s like, you can’t motivate yourself over your fear of death, you need someone like a parent to expect you to clean up your room and eat all your peas and be a good little asshole, bothering people, and defending his book about how to keep slaves. It actually bothers some people to be so conscienceless and so selfish about your own idiotic purpose, to eat, sleep, maybe procreate, and say whatever you think you have to say to please the abusive patriarch in your head so he doesn’t damn you to hell. I don’t have no purpose, I have a temporary purpose. You’re so greedy that you’ll defend genocide, slavery, whatever the bible tells you to obey, and you think that having an “objective” purpose to a fictional character makes you meaningful. I know you don’t care what my opinion is of you, you only care what god thinks of you, and if he thinks you’re the obedient little monster his bargain has made you, that’s all you care about. How can you even have any purpose? You’re the worst kind of person, and I guess that’s the kind of idiotic souls your god feels like collecting, not mine.

        • Kodie

          Your meaning and purpose is complete fiction. It has no context in the real world. We make our own purpose, what we mean to others in our circles, real, actual people, not fictional abusive characters in a book, not some other life than this one you call “afterlife”. Think about it. Look around you. Why is it so depressing to you that this is it? Why would you think, without god, we’re not accountable to society, to others, why would we just murder people without “ultimate” consequences? I would say the ultimate consequence of that is trading in the rest of your life to be sent away to prison. That’s a consequence. What is your fucked up religion teaching you and lying to you about and scaring you about?

        • Ed Senter

          My meaning and purpose to life may or may not be fiction. Your meaning and purpose to life is absolutely fiction. So you are a hypocrite.
          That is why atheists can only ridicule and mock theists because they want to share their misery.

        • MR

          What is your meaning and purpose?

        • Michael Neville

          My meaning and purpose in life is to make life as good as possible for myself and for others. How is that fiction? Please be specific.

          We don’t mock and ridicule theists. We have family and friends who are theists and we don’t mock them. But we do mock Bible-thumper god-botherers like you because you believe obvious bullshit, you don’t recognize the contradictions in your beliefs, and you don’t even know your own religion particularly well. There’s the further point that you’re trying to sell you “god” to us but do it in such an inept, clumsy, ineffectual way that ridicule is a reasonable response. Of course it’s difficult to sell something that the prospective customer doesn’t need or want but you came here and stay here of your own free will.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker
        • Kodie

          I don’t know how it’s fiction if it’s relevant to our reality experience. You have to explain where you think we go when we die, and how that makes life meaningful or purposeful. It sounds to me like you never thought this through.

        • Greg G.

          Your meaning and purpose to life is absolutely fiction.

          We exist and our lives have meaning to us. That meaning is as real as we are. The objective meaning is imagined.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Question: How did they become like God?
          (they now know good and evil- is not an answer)

          Dang!! I was going to say that.

          Morality is what ‘should’ be done. The only law at that time was “don’t eat from that tree”.

          When you give a simple command like that to a 1-year-old, what happens?

          Do you suppose some moral maturity is required to properly execute that command?

          My contention is that it was not a “morality tree”. That tree was an “authority tree”. It represented God’s sovereignty.

          And my contention is that “Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil” is more a morality tree. There’s nothing of God here if you magically get wisdom, from the fruit to your brain, without God.

        • Ed Senter

          So God doesn’t exist but you get magic wisdom from eating fruit? That’s crazy.
          What is inherently wrong with eating fruit from that tree? There were countless others to eat from? It wasn’t poisonous. The only reason they weren’t suppose to eat from it was because GOD SAID NO!
          Ever have a child back talk after you have told them no? They say, why? Because I say so! Enough said.
          That was an AUTHORITY tree.

        • Greg G.

          It’s a fairy tale, Ed. It doesn’t stand to reason.

        • Ed Senter

          Yes it does. Read my posts.
          You are just too dishonest to admit it.

        • Greg G.

          I have read your posts. They demonstrate that one must warp your mind to make things fit while ignoring all the contrary evidence and reason. Why didn’t God make you smart?

        • Ed Senter

          He must have made me smarter than you because when it starts making sense, you fall back with “it’s a fairy tale”.

        • Greg G.

          You wouldn’t respond to the evidence and you don’t understand logic at all. I have presented the evidence several times to interested people. You don’t seem to be worth the effort.

        • Ed Senter

          You want to rewrite the “story” and now call it “evidence” just like the serpent did.

        • Greg G.

          Was it the serpent or the devil? Christians are all over the map on this point. I can’t keep track of who believes what about that serpent. Talking serpents are an indication that the story is a fable or a fairy tale.

          If your whole belief system relies on the talking serpent being true, then it is no wonder you have to try to convince yourself that it is a true story. It becomes a never-ending quest for you. You aren’t trying to convince us, you are trying to convince yourself.

        • Ed Senter

          You are so busy chopping down saplings that you refuse to see the forest.
          I have said over and over, my faith is based on the Resurrection. I am not so much concerned with how we got here as I am concerned about where we are going.
          Whether or not the creation story is literally true, the concept is still true and it is supported by the rest of scripture. Is this a fallen world? Why was the Law given? What is redemption? Is Satan the god of this world because Adam lost it? Is Satan destined for hell?
          Besides, there is no reason to believe the story is not to be taken literally. Something happened after Adam ate that fruit. There was a cataclysmic change from before to after. (and it wasn’t because they suddenly learned ‘good and evil’)

        • Joe

          I have said over and over, my faith is based on the Resurrection.

          What was it, especially, that convinced you the Resurrection actually occurred?

        • Ed Senter

          What convinced me was understanding that Jesus came to die and that his crucifixion was not just because he was misunderstood. His death was by design under the sovereignty of God’s purpose.

        • Joe

          But what convinced you that it happened?

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t think I ever had a problem with whether or not it happened. I always had a problem with why it happened.

        • Joe

          You must have made a decision at some point? Or did you never question this when you were told about it?

        • Ed Senter

          I never doubted whether or not Jesus rose from the dead. I grew up Catholic just doing what I was told. The focus always was on all the suffering Jesus endured. The Resurrection was just a matter of fact. (watch Mel Gibson’s The Passion, for example) It was all the holiness crap that made me doubt Catholicism when I came of age.

        • Joe

          “I never doubted whether or not Jesus rose from the dead”

          There’s your problem.

        • Susan

          I never doubted whether or not Jesus rose from the dead.

          Why not?

          I grew up Catholic just doing what I was told.

          I grew up catholic too. They filled my head with garbage that didn’t turn out to have any support.

          The focus was on all the suffering Jesus endured.

          Any idiot can look around this planet and see that trillions of life forms suffered worse fates than the Jesus in your story.

          On top of that, Yahwehjesus created suffering if you believe the story. Hundreds of millions of years of it before anything resembling a human existed. How many innocent people were crucified in the same historical setting who just died miserably? None of them invented suffering. They just endured it.

          The Resurrection was just a matter of fact. (watch Mel Gibson’s The Passion, for example)

          Um.. that’s a bit of torture porn loosely based on the story from the Gospels. Hollywood doesn’t necessarily care about facts. So, you’ve got to be kidding.

          It was all the holiness crap that made me doubt Catholicism when I came of age.

          You abandoned the One True Church? On what basis?

        • BlackMamba44

          And you fall back on “You just hate God you meanie”!!!!

        • Ed Senter

          I have never even implied such a childish response. Since an atheist doesn’t believe God exists, such a statement means nothing.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Yes, of course an atheist doesn’t believe God exists. But what explains this asinine comment of yours from a week ago in response to this blog post??

          You say “God condones slavery”? A God that you don’t believe exists? That ‘s crazy.

          Link here:
          http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2017/10/daniels-end-times-prediction-skeptical-approach/#comment-3613271433

          Having a hard times keeping your lies straight?

        • Ed Senter

          My contention has always been that an atheist (one who does not believe any G/god exists) will take the Bible (the collection of books which reveals the All-Mighty God) then create a caricature (an exaggerated, often unreasonable interpretation) of the Bible, and ridicule and mock that caricature.
          When a Christian (one who believes God exists) presents a reasonable interpretation of the passage the atheist caricatures, the atheist will backpeddle to his original position of “it’s all a fairy tale”.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          1. I was hoping (though not expecting) that you’d realize that you’ve been making contradictory statements and apologize. Silly me.

          2. Where have I backpedaled? Not only do you not backpedal when you should, you declare that atheists do, but I don’t see where this would be.

        • Ed Senter

          1. For the life of me, I don’t see where I have made any contradictions.
          2. Both you and the wiz have backpeddled. Wiz did it in this thread. You keep coming up with different explanations for “morality tree” with the only intent to show God a liar.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Uh huh. Thanks for your thoughtful input. You’re a waste of time.

        • Ed Senter

          “You’re a waste of time.”

          I have actually learned a lot…Atheists got nothing but an emotionally driven need to ridicule and mock that which they don’t understand.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You’ve had a lot of smart people teach you here. As far as I can tell, you have zero interest in learning new things. Your sole goal seems to be to reframe the facts so you are entitled to continue to hold your supernatural conclusions.

        • Ed Senter

          I have no idea what you mean by “reframe the facts”.
          I love to learn new things. I also have an insatiable desire for the truth.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          What good is learning new things? You’ve already reached your conclusion. The only useful new thing was something that buttressed what you already believed. Seems to me that you hate new things.

          Insatiable desire for the truth? What sense does that make when you’re immovable from your conclusion?

          “Reframe the facts” means to adjust/sift/discard facts to suit your agenda.

        • Ed Senter

          If the conclusion is the truth, why would I move from it?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          How do you know that your conclusion is the truth?

        • Ed Senter

          I don’t know. I am not gnostic. Maybe I was blessed with wisdom and discernment. But I am not immovable. Show me something that is “true” and I will have no problem changing my mind. A wise man once said that the remedy for bad teaching is right teaching. Put a straight stick next to a crooked one, the difference is evident.

        • Greg G.

          Put a straight stick next to a crooked one, the difference is evident.

          Sure, but lies can be beautiful when the truth is ugly. I prefer an ugly truth to pretty lies.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          You’ve made it clear that you’re closed minded. Evidence is your tool; you don’t follow it. If the Bible were manmade, I’m sure I couldn’t convince you of it.

        • Ed Senter

          Evidence is one thing; drawing a conclusion takes wisdom and discernment.
          There is no doubt that the Bible is manmade. The question, however, is whether or not it is inspired.

          But you want absolute proof. How can that be provided when it is yet to come, that is, future events will be your absolute proof.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          But you want absolute proof.

          Wrong again. All I’m asking for is a preponderance of evidence–is that unreasonable?

          Curiously, you’ve done nothing to add to the pro-Christian argument. It’s almost like you’ve got nothing to add except bluster.

        • Michael Neville

          You’ll get pie in the sky when you die.

        • Ed Senter

          Preponderance of evidence means to just tip the scales one way or the other.
          No, what you have here is a full blown capital murder case with the death penalty on the line. The burden of proof is suppose to be “beyond reasonable doubt”, but we all know the jury will demand absolute proof.

          I have countered most of your silly atheist caricatures about theism. All you have is “it’s a fairy tale”.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Countered? I’ve not seen you counter a single argument.

          The burden of proof is suppose to be “beyond reasonable doubt”, but we all know the jury will demand absolute proof.

          Thanks for your condescending help, but I’ll tell you how I evaluate evidence, not the other way around.

          When God is likelier than not, I’ll accept the God explanation. What alternative could I have?

        • Ed Senter

          No, what I have seen from you is that the supernatural is off the table. You will accept only the best natural explanation.
          Of course, that is circular reasoning: No supernatural, any supernatural claim is a lie, because the supernatural can’t be, therefore, no supernatural.

        • Kodie

          Don’t be so dramatic, you asshole. It sounds like you’re getting desperate and silly.

        • Susan

          It sounds like you’re getting desperate and silly.

          He showed up here desperate and silly.

          Nothing has changed.

        • Kodie

          He arrived with a silly idea but not as panicked as he is now to cling to it.

        • Susan

          we all know the jury will demand absolute proof.

          No one’s ever asked for absolute proof. Absolute proof is a straw man that christians attack because they don’t have any evidence.

        • Ed Senter

          Watch this:

          Christian: The Bible is objective proof (evidence) that God exists.
          Atheist: Liar, its a fairy tale; It’s no different than all the other myths; They copied each other; God’s a sadist, immoral, wretch; excuse ad nauseum…

        • Michael Neville

          So what’s your point? You point to the Bible and pretend it’s evidence for a magical sky pixie. We look at the Bible and see lies and fairy stories. We also see how your god is depicted in the Bible as an immoral sadistic thug. You got any evidence that your imaginary god isn’t a sadistic, immoral thug? Are you going to tell us that according to your Bible your god didn’t kill the first born of Egypt or nuke Sodom and Gomorrah?

        • Ed Senter

          200 years after the flood, men with evil intent were building the Tower of Babel for the purpose of escaping any future floods and God’s wrath.
          I wonder why they did not get the message and worship God like Abram? Then I read posts by Michael Neville and I am still wandering…

        • Michael Neville

          Since neither the flud or the tower of babel happened and Abraham is as fictional as Harry Potter, I’m wondering why you believe obvious bullshit. But that’s you. Fortunately for me I’ve got reality to get me through life.

        • Greg G.

          200 years after what flood? That is another thing science has shown us never happened.

        • Ed Senter

          I would love to see those research papers. Oh, that’s a fairy tale, too?

        • Greg G.

          I would love to see those research papers.

          Bullshit. If you wanted to see the research papers, you would have gone to a library and looked them up.

        • Ed Senter

          That’s right. You rely on pseudo-science.

        • Greg G.

          No, Ed. If you wanted to see the research papers, there is nothing stopping you but your religion-installed fears. MNb gave you a link. Sorry, they don’t have the research papers in coloring book form.

        • MNb

          Not that you are going to accept it – I post this just to expose you a bit more as the stupid liar you are with your fake “I would love …”

          http://www.livius.org/articles/misc/great-flood/

          It’s a series. At the end of the link you can click to find follow ups.
          Of course you are going to dismiss it, because you prefer your flexible definition of the word evidence.
          Thus far you haven’t written about it, but given your non-methodology I strong begin to suspect that you’re a creationist. At least you have the same stupid creationism in common with Young Earth Creationists like Ken Ham.

        • Ed Senter

          You send me to a webpage that compares the Flood story from the Bible with similar flood stories from other cultures. So? There is no where in this article that even suggests “science has shown that the flood never happened”.
          If anything, this article buttresses the Bible that the flood did indeed happen.
          btw, I am not a Young Earth Creationist. I do believe, however, that God created the first humans- Adam and Eve. There is a gap of time between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. I have no problem with the Earth being millions of years old.

        • MNb

          “There is no where in this article that even suggests “science has shown that the flood never happened”.
          To nobody’s surprise you show that you lack comprehensive reading skills.

          “there are several large clay deposits, which can be dated to several periods”
          Just like your generic “one god means polytheism is false” several floods (for which there is evidence) that have inspired flood stories suggest that your “one Great Flood” is false.
          Of course there is also the little problem of the Law of Mass-Energy Conservation. In other words: where did all the water come from and where did it go? Any possible answer needs to be backed up by strong evidence.
          But of course you don’t even need to bother. The creationist cop out “goddiddid” always can be applied. You already admitted that you are not a uniformitarian. That makes every single attempt of yours to “back up” your faith with reason totally futile.

          “I have no problem with the Earth being millions of years old”
          Thanks for admitting that you are a creationist indeed – not all creationists are YECers.
          Almost all creationists are willfully ignorant and stupid. All of them lie. The smart ones (like Paul Nelson and William Dembsky) produce smart lies.
          One thing has been cleared up now: why a sensible discussion with you is impossible.

          https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/debating-creationists-is-dumber-than-creationism/

          Believing that there was a global flood and that every human descends from two first humans called Adam and Eve is just as stupid as YEC.
          You are a science denier, it’s as simple as that.

          And before you think you can make a point: in one respect I disagree with SC. While I agree that any attempt to have a sensible discussion with creationists (like you) is futile I have another reason to do it. It can be entertaining. Indeed most of your stupidities are.

        • Ed Senter

          Just what does it mean to be human? Are we just another animal who dries up and blows away when we die? Or, is there anything else? Do we have a soul? Do other animals have a soul? Science can not answer that.
          Numbnut atheists don’t even know the question.
          How we got here really does not matter. I exist, at least I think I do. Is there anything else is what bothers me.
          Christianity is based on a supernatural event- the Resurrection. Science can not prove it nor deny it. However, it certainly is within the realm of scientific exploration.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Just what does it mean to be human? Are we just another animal who dries up and blows away when we die? Or, is there anything else? Do we have a soul? Do other animals have a soul? Science can not answer that.

          Are there unicorns? Is Halloween really a period when the veil between our world and the supernatural world becomes thin and allows spirits to pass back and forth? Science actually can answer that.

          Why do we reject the claim that unicorns exist? Because there’s no evidence that they do.

          Do the math.

          Christianity is based on a supernatural event- the Resurrection. Science can not prove it nor deny it.

          Nor can it prove that the Purple People of Pluto don’t exist. Is there good reason to think that they do?

        • Ed Senter

          Not much of a philosopher, eh?
          Live out your meaningless materialist life, then die. I don’t care.
          What I don’t get is why you fight so hard for your worthless side to win?

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Which addresses nothing of my comment.

        • Ed Senter

          Your comment was dismissive. Right back at you.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          Your comment was dismissive

          You mean, destructive.

        • Ed Senter

          If there was a book that explained how we got here and where we are going in such detail that is way beyond anything that could be imagined by the human mind, and it said follow the Purple People from Pluto to eternal life, I would follow them. Wait, such a book already exists and all I have to do is trust in the God that created it all- the Bible.

        • Susan

          If there was a book that explained how we got here and where we are going in such detail that is way beyond anything that could be imagined by the human mind,

          No bible is that book.

          It looks exactly like something imagined by human minds. Much more mundane than many other books imagined by human minds.

          You’ve been here for months and haven’t shown it be anything beyond the mundane imaginings of mostly mundane humans.

        • Ed Senter

          How would you know? You don’t care and have shown no interest to learn. That is the worst place to be.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          It’s impossible to imagine that the Bible could’ve been written by ordinary humans? You don’t have much of an imagination–or maybe too much of one.

        • Ed Senter

          The Bible was written by ordinary humans. What is impossible is to not see the thread running through each book from Genesis to Revelation. The minor glitches give the Bible credence and authenticity. The message is the same throughout. Like a wise man once said, if I didn’t worship the God of the Bible, I would worship the guy who wrote it.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          The message is the same throughout.

          Nope. Jesus as the route to salvation isn’t present in the OT. Did it just slip God’s mind? Did he change his mind midway?

        • Ed Senter

          To start,
          Genesis 3:15
          Genesis 22:18
          Of course, one must put the Jesus glasses on, or you will search blindly.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined Bob Seidensticker

          There’s your problem–you’re seeing Jesus when this is clear evidence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

        • Ed