The Judge is in his holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before him.


When the court speaks, the thinking has been done.


Perhaps some of you haven’t heard that a federal judge overturned Utah’s definition of marriage as between a man and a woman today, and that, unless I’m mistaken, at least one same-sex wedding has already been performed.


Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated.


Posted from St. George, Utah

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  • joseph peterson

    Well, I think we agree Dr. Peterson. Resistance is futile. And more of your words: “just shut up.”

    • DanielPeterson

      Spoken like a true fascist.

  • Zig

    It’s entertaining watching the pious bigots and haters writhe in anger.

    • murphyW

      Yes, I remember the watching the pious biogots and haters writhe in anger when prop 8 was first passed. Although it isn’t all that entertaining knowing that the will of the majority of voters has been hijacked by the will of an unelected judge.

      • Zig

        It’s actually quite comforting knowing we have protection from ‘tyranny of the majority’.

        Democracy [in Utah] is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

        • Ryan

          Is democracy elsewhere any different? The basic assumption of democracy (voting) is that some voters will lose.

          And it seems to me that few who decry tyranny of the majority do so on a principled, consistent basis. For example, one might decry a definition of marriage that excludes a gay minority but may not decry a progressive tax that targets a rich minority.

          That’s what gets me about the “lamb” line. Most people who use it don’t mind eating lambs when it suits them.

        • murphyW

          The debate continues but ultimately the ruling of a federal judge now doesn’t really matter. Fortunately there is a higher authority whose fair and just judements will supercede any earthly rulings of majority or minority rule. Ironically, He has already ruled before on this issue in days of future passed and He’ll rule again on this issue in days to come. His final ruling will be just and equitable based on eternal law, not on man’s law.

          • Zig

            murphyW, if you really believe that, then why care about gay marriage at all? Don’t think God is strong enough to sort it out?

            I’ve never understood why Mormons are against gay marriage – why it’s even their business. Mormons believe in a ‘higher’ marriage – a sealing for all eternity. Civil marriages, or, marriages for time only, are second rate. No believing Mormon would settle for one. It’s Celestial eternal marriage. All else is nothing.

            Only Mormons control who has access to this sealing. No other people or religion or power or government on the earth can offer this covenant.

            So Mormons are in control of the ‘real’ marriage. Why do Mormons care about civil marriages, which are nothing in their eyes anyway?

          • ClintonKing

            Still, it’s difficult to see the rest of society go up in flames. No-fault divorce, pornography, more cohabiting couples than married couples, and now the idea that a homosexual union is the equivalent to a heterosexual union. It’s hard to watch my country throw away things that are foundational to its prosperity and happiness. I guess I could just callously turn my back on my country, but I’m having a hard time doing that.

          • Zig

            ClintonKing, how about you mind your own business?

            or, if you don’t like Gay marriage, don’t have one.

            or, let God judge.

            There was a time that I postulated that the emergence of Gays was God’s test to Mormons (and all Christians) to see if they could really love their neighbors. Think Good Samaritan. It’s easy to love those who love you. If you’re really going to love, you have to love those who are hard to love. If this is God’s test, Mormons have failed miserably.

          • ClintonKing

            If I didn’t love them, I wouldn’t care. Because I love them I have to tell them that their actions are mistaken, and will not lead them to happiness.

          • Diego Villalobos Ulate

            Oh ClintonKing! so nice but, You don’t have to love me or worry about me. Is good to know I am extremely happy to love who I want to love and to marry who I want to marry! Don’t need your “love” with strings attached!

          • ClintonKing

            Actually, I do have to love you. I am commanded by God to love all men.

          • Bernardo_Gui47

            But then if your dream isn’t God’s test….

          • kiwi57

            Well here’s the thing, Zig.

            The fate of an enduring, bedrock social institution is our business.

            The kind of world our biological children and descendants have to grow up in is our business. I realise that’s not something self-centred hedonists (and genetic cul-de-sacs) are inclined to consider, but those whom you despise as “breeders” are not only inclined, but actually obligated to consider it.

            That’s because mankind is our business. We’re the ones perpetuating the race. We are the ones who have a responsibility to leave something worthwhile behind for our children and grandchildren.

            And letting social vandals trash our legacy just wouldn’t be very responsible of us, would it?

          • Bernardo_Gui47

            Because eventually the state will enforce this social hope and change at the point of a gun (tip of the hat to His Holiness Mao).

        • RaymondSwenson

          So you are all in favor of tyranny. The true issue is not the law of marriage per se, but the much more fundamental issue of whether citizens rule themselves or will be governed by those who believe we are too stupid and/or evil to govern ourselves. If this judge’s ruling is accepted, Utah might as well revert to being a Federal territory ruled from Washington, DC, or a colony ruled by a monarch in Britain.

          Claiming that his ruling is mandated by the idea of equality, when it deprives us of the right to an equal voice in our own government, is utter hypocrisy.

          • Zig

            Raymond, you sound like someone from the South arguing in favor of slavery.

    • ClintonKing

      Count me in as a bigot and hater.

    • kiwi57

      It’s indeed entertaining to watch the reprobate bigots and haters, with their unconvincing veneers of piety, writhe in anger that anyone would have the temerity to not simply surrender to their utterly self-centred demands.

    • Bernardo_Gui47

      You mistake anger for sorrow.

  • RaymondSwenson

    The most fundamental component of the US Constitution is that “We, the people” are the sovereigns and rulers, not an oligarchy of judges. This ruling destroys democracy, based on a judge disqualifying citizens from voting based on his retroactive mind reading about their motives.

    The governor and other officials were elected to serve the law enacted by the people, not the personal whims of a dictator who claims that the 14th Amendment created a “right” which no one of integrity actually believes was contemplated when it was enacted by Congress and ratified by the states. His ruling is a great lie, and since it lacks legal integrity it should be defied by all Utah officers.

    • palerobber

      the 14th amendment did not anticipate a fundamental right to marriage? you do realize that slave marriages had no legal effect, right?

    • palerobber

      also Ray, given your interpretation of the 14th Amendment, was Loving v. Virginia wrongly decided?

    • Phil

      Do you believe that Governor Boggs had the right to expel Mormons from Missouri? He was duly elected and was acting in his capacity to prevent bloodshed, and clearly the “extermination” order enjoyed popular support in the state. If a judge overruled Boggs, would you support the judge or Boggs?

      • kiwi57

        Yes, there’s a valid analogy. Because not having the relationship of your choice (which you are entirely free to enter into and openly practice) recognised as a “marriage” is exactly the same as being driven from your home at gunpoint in winter.


        • Phil

          The issue is judicial “tyranny”. Having an unelected judge over-rule the will of the duly elected leaders and the will of the people.

          • kiwi57

            Except that a judge protecting a group of people from violence is not meaningfully comparable to a judge redefining an enduring social institution by judicial fiat.

    • clint015

      What you describe as “destroying democracy” has been how our republic has operated for the past 210 years. A law cannot violate the constitution no matter if the people voted on it or not. Who decides what’s constitutional? The judiciary, which was established in Marbury v. Madison 1803.

      The law was study down using the process that was established in the infancy of our country, not some anti-religious conspiracy. It’s the constitution at work.

  • brotheroflogan

    It is entirely natural and reasonable for a society to promote heterosexual relationships and give it a special status different from all other relationships. Heterosexual relationships produce offspring that is biologically related to both parents, bringing them together in a “marriage” of interests in their children. There is a reason why adopted children almost always seek out their biological parents. It means something.

  • EteU Spencer

    It is wonderful! I am so proud of Utah! The winds of change is in the air! Soon, full inclusion for our church. women will start using the priesthood! This is a glorious day! i want to be the first to ordain a gay woman to the priesthood. I want to escort the first gay man to receive his endowment! I can’t wait to get to Utah. When I get there, Thomas Monson are going to hang out-then watch revelation fall like dew from the heavens! We will be a banner for the whole world to follow! Gays and women will be in our quorums-we will have gays and females in the Quorum of the Twelve! A beautiful day is ahead of us!

    • kiwi57

      Shh. You’re not supposed to let the cat out of the bag like this.
      The party line you are supposed to be toeing is that the reprobate clique couldn’t force churches to accommodate them, and besides, they wouldn’t if they could.

      But here’s the deal, EteU Spencer: the Church always has practiced “full inclusion.” Those who you choose to label as “gay” have always been able to receive the blessings of the temple.

      It’s just that they have to follow the same rules as everyone else.

      We don’t treat them as a privileged class.

      And we’re not going to.


      That no doubt means that the hissy fits from the reprobate clique are going to continue.


  • Gunnel Troberg

    USA is doing totally wrong. We can not link law and religion together. Let marriage be a sacred thing just like baptism. No person can call him or herself married by law. Instead it is up to every church how to perform a marriage and what is valid, just as in case with baptism.

  • palerobber

    dan, i wish you could have been at the county offices last night to see all the beautiful couples, of all ages and walks of life, several with children in tow, finally able to marry after so many years of being denied equal protection of the law. what a wonderful day for Utah!

  • palerobber

    btw, by some coincidence i posted that exact same photo in a different forum yesterday. but i think this one captures the moment even better:

    • brotheroflogan

      Are you one of these women?

  • Bernardo_Gui47

    And so the social concept and contract of marriage is cast into the dustbin of history. Marriage is now a meaningless word because there is no rationale to prevent any kind of union – gender or numerical – from being ruled a “marriage.”

  • Bernardo_Gui47

    What does marriage mean?

    • brotheroflogan

      This question is rarely asked. Thank you for asking it.

      • Bernardo_Gui47

        No worries. Thank you for answering it.
        Sometimes it’s helpful to define what it is that is being changed and celebrated.