Another Congressman ‘Misspeaks”

And yet another example of a Republican politician saying something appallingly moronic and xenophobic about President Obama, then trying to walk it back and claim that he just “misspoke” and didn’t really mean it — but only after the audio leaked to the local press.

Rep. Mike Coffman (R-Colorado) is backpedaling after 9NEWS was first to report on an audio recording of his comments at a recent fundraiser where he raised the issue of President Barack Obama’s birthplace and said the president, “in his heart, he’s not an American.”

At a May 12 fundraiser at the Elbert County Fairgrounds, Coffman wrapped up a 12-minute speech to donors with an unprompted discussion of President Obama’s citizenship and national identification.

“I don’t know whether Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. I don’t know that,” Coffman said. “But I do know this, that in his heart, he’s not an American. He’s just not an American.”

Now here’s the funny part. The audio was made public by one of his contributors at the meeting, who agreed with it and thought it should be distributed more widely:

The recording and a photo of the event were posted online by Coffman supporter Brooks Imperial, who attended the fundraiser.

“I’m glad the congressman said it. Not enough have. More should,” Imperial said.

And of course, Coffman is now “apologizing” and claims it was just a slip:

Coffman issued a written apology Wednesday evening.

“I misspoke and I apologize,” the statement began. “I have confidence in President Obama’s citizenship and legitimacy as President of the United States.”

Coffman went on to offer a defense of his intent.

“I don’t believe the president shares my belief in American Exceptionalism. His policies reflect a philosophy that America is but one nation among many equals,” the statement read. “As a Marine, I believe America is unique and based on a core set of principles that make it superior to other nations.”

Yeah, he just “misspoke.” He wasn’t pandering to the most bigoted and ignorant among us, including some who donate to his campaign. This isn’t misspeaking, it’s a glimpse into what he really believes but doesn’t want people to know he believes. As for American exceptionalism, the only thing exceptional is that this kind of stupid rhetoric actually works with a huge segment of the population here.

About Ed Brayton

After spending several years touring the country as a stand up comedian, Ed Brayton tired of explaining his jokes to small groups of dazed illiterates and turned to writing as the most common outlet for the voices in his head. He has appeared on the Rachel Maddow Show and the Thom Hartmann Show, and is almost certain that he is the only person ever to make fun of Chuck Norris on C-SPAN.

  • baal

    Saying “in his heart” or “in my heart” or similar formulations should be grounds for removal form office by function of law.

  • F

    Wow, that apology might be worse than the original.

    As a Marine

    Then we have that that military exceptionalism again.

    “Brooks Imperial” – why does that name sound familiar?

  • dingojack

    And in other news: “Prominent Mega-Church Pastor claims to have ‘misplaced‘ his penis, ‘a dozen or so times’. into a rentboy in a public toilet cubicle. The highly expensive”, pardon me, “hardly exclusive interview with the rentboy at 11 (10 Eastern)”.

    :) Dingo

  • Tualha

    Hmm. Let, see. Omaba: Supports wars on countries that never did anything to America. Supports torture and arbitrary imprisonment. Supports drone warfare.

    I guess that makes him at least as American as all those right-wing yahoos. For whatever that’s worth.

  • http://spaninquis.wordpress.com/ Spanish Inquisitor

    Notice how much political discourse is couched in terms of “belief”?

    “I don’t believe the president shares my belief in American Exceptionalism. … “As a Marine, I believe America is unique and based on a core set of principles that make it superior to other nations.”

    Shouldn’t politicians who want tax-payer funded employment have opinions about the issues of the day that are based on something more solid than their subjective gut feelings?

  • bmiller

    Tualha for the win!

    Obama seems plenty American to me. He even loves him some Ronnie Raygun. what’s not to love? Oops…HE IS UNHEARTLANDISHLY HUED! OH NO! (h/t to Jesus’ General)

  • Ellie

    Brooks Imperial makes saddles and bicycle seats. The saddles made in the late 1800s, were designed with a slot, to prevent discomfort to the genital area. So, is this the company speaking, or did someone take this as their name?

  • bubba707

    American exceptionalism? The only thing exceptional about America these days is its utter ignorance.

  • ednaz

    “As a Marine, I believe America is unique and based on a core set of principles that make it superior to other nations.”

    That’s the problem right there. America is not superior to other nations. Every nation has triumphs and failures. Every nation has policies that help it’s people and policies that just make things worse.

    We can no longer think of only our country. We must think of our world. We must learn to work together.

    Rep. Coffman does not seem to understand this.

  • http://iamaperture.wordpress.com Zinc Avenger

    America is not superior to other nations.

    Shhh, you can’t say that! Next you might start thinking that ‘Murrica can learn from other countries instead of bull-headedly making easily avoidable mistakes because GUNS AN JEEBUS, and that… uh… something something study history, something something repeat it!

  • Mr Ed

    So we are exceptional not because of what we do but because we have divine favor. I wonder if the same free market types would agree that a company need not provide superior product or services they just need to curry gods favor.

  • caseloweraz

    “The audio was made public by one of his contributors at the meeting, who agreed with it and thought it should be distributed more widely.”

    I’m sure that, based on his statement, Rep. Coffman will return the money that supporter gave him and bar him from future appearances.

    /sarc

  • Chiroptera

    “I don’t believe the president shares my belief in American Exceptionalism.”

    “America” isn’t exceptional. Mind blowing, isn’t it Coffman? Here’s something else that’ll blow your mind: Christianity doesn’t have a monopoly on truth, nor does it make one more likely to be ethical or moral.

  • Uncle Glenny

    Brooks Imperial makes saddles and bicycle seats. The saddles made in the late 1800s, were designed with a slot, to prevent discomfort to the genital area.

    Very stiff, requiring the application of saddle soap with vigorous rubbing quite frequently.

    So, is this the company speaking, or did someone take this as their name?

    Well, I think Imperial is the name of the bike seat, so presumably he’s a Repub toady and wants someone to sit on his face.

  • Uncle Glenny

    Well, the 9news article did get lots of horse-race quotes, but still seemed very careful to not commit to birtherism either way.

    And yes I’m sleep deprived, hypomanic, and getting punchy.

  • Chiroptera

    As a Marine, I believe America is unique and based on a core set of principles that make it superior to other nations.”

    Speaking as an American, I can say that the “core principles” that Coffman is talking about is the idea that America is unique and superior to other nations!

  • gmacs

    His policies reflect a philosophy that America is but one nation among many equals… I believe America is unique and based on a core set of principles that make it superior to other nations.

    Oh, no. You mean the president doesn’t subscribe to a delusion of grandeur? Oh my, how ever will he keep reason from holding his hand or tongue in diplomatic situations when he isn’t ruled by a nationalist philosophy?

    Nationalism has never steered anyone wrong. Ever. It has never led to genocide, or collapsed empires.

  • Emptyell

    @4

    “I guess that makes him at least as American as all those right-wing yahoos. ”

    Wrong tribe, wrong complexion.

  • http://www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    “As a Marine, I believe America is unique and based on a core set of principles that make it superior to other nations.”

    I spotted your mistake!

  • http://drx.typepad.com Dr X

    Shouldn’t politicians who want tax-payer funded employment have opinions about the issues of the day that are based on something more solid than their subjective gut feelings?

    You’re forgetting that they also base their opinions on Lee Greenwood’s Proud To Be An American.

  • Michael Heath

    Mike Coffman:

    “I don’t know whether Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. I don’t know that,” Coffman said. “But I do know this, that in his heart, he’s not an American. He’s just not an American.”

    I’m one year older than Barack Obama. I identify with the president unlike any other world leader, not merely because of our age, but primarily because he perceives the same root cause problems with this country that I do. Problems which were obvious by the 1980s which previous U.S. politicians with great power have mostly sought to avoid even acknowledging – let alone authentically addressing: energy policy, education, health care, the actual reasons for our debt, income inequality, and jobs. Where this president has attempted to directly confront these problems whereas most presidents were incapable of even differentiating the actual causes from the mere symptoms.

    The fact I identify with this president on these matters, as well as identify with him culturally, in spite of my having been raised in a rural red state part of the country though also having the good fortune to also live in other areas and do business and travel in most of its states, has me concluding with great confidence one observation. Rep. Coffman is using code to argue we have an uppity nigger in the White House; a nigger who must go precisely because he’s an uppity nigger.

  • http://irrelevantprocess.blogspot.com mxh

    American exceptionalism is just another symptom of black-and-white thinking. They don’t have varying degrees of good and bad. So, can’t fathom America not being the best there ever was since it fits in their good category. It’s the thinking pattern of a 2 year old (or someone with a severe personality disorder).

  • coronat

    I know this guy personally (long story). Seems to have gone off the deep end since his tour in Iraq (non-combat) and election to Congress. Used to be a pretty reasonable although conservative guy. Now, I don’t know.

  • StevoR

    As for American exceptionalism, the only thing exceptional is that this kind of stupid rhetoric actually works with a huge segment of the population here.

    I don’t actually think that’s true.

    Many nations on this planet claim to be the greatest or cliame da ssuch b many residents and many people in many lands find patriotic rhetoric appealing.

    The Chinese, us Aussies, theres’ no doubt plenty more than just the US.

    The United States can at least argue that it is the world’s biggets superpower with an enviable record of achievement in many araes such as winning the Space Race and being the only nation to land humans on the Moon. The USA does kinda lead the Free developed world and has created or shaped much of the Western culture which is idealistic and generally beneficial, offers its civilians the best quality of life and opportunities to pursue happiness and a lifetsyle and set of cultural values has been welcomed, adopted, copied and sought for by more people than any other culture.

    So there is much to say that the USA *is*, indeed, exceptional in many good ways – as well as a few that are perhaps arguably bad (the most religious and violent and highest gun-owning of the Western world) too.

    Oh & btw. I’m an Australian. (I love my nation too!)

    Patrotism, nationalism, has its down side and dark side but I don’t think its right to call patriotism or nationalism a bad thing per se.

    What the Congressman said about Obama’s lack of patriotism is something that could be considered a valid criticism. The fact that Obama happily listened to his preacher calling for the nation he wanted to lead to be “dammned” and spewing racial hate speech against whites is something that I think should trouble us and make us at least strongly question Obama’s suitability to be POTUS. Hilary Clinton would’ve been a better choice for the Democratic Party’s nominee of 2008 in my view.

    Obama though was still the lesser of evils versus McCain-Palin in 2008 and also for that matter Romney-whoever this year.

  • StevoR

    PS. I also think it is valid to note that Obama is NOT representative of most Americans and wasn’t brought up in a typical American or Western way but was raised in Indonesia and by Muslim parents. He also isn’t actually African-American in the usual sense of the words growing up amongst and as somebody who has lived in that community all their life in America and, of course he’s half-white too. Not that that last part should really matter except that he’s often wrongly described as something he technically, sorta, isn’t.

    IOW, Obama isn’t really an (all) Black / African-American* President. Jesse Jackson or Neil DeGrasse Tyson or perhaps Condolezza Rice, OTOH, would be genuinely African-American POTUS’es. (FWIW, I think Condi Rice would make a excellent Republican President and may well be in the running in 2016.)

    When it comes to being suitable for the Presidency

    skin colour is irrelevant – totally. Ditto gender and sexual orientation.

    OTOH, beliefs and cultural background which determines many beliefs perhaps do have some relevancy in a world where the West is fighting off an on-going attack by Jihadists whoseek to impose an Islamofascist Khaliphate upon the globe and hate Western civilisation for its values and Israel for its mere existence.

    A lack of love for one’s own nation should also at least raise question marks – and when Obama seems lacking in patriotism, constantly apologetic to other nations for his own country rather than defending and supporting it and behaves coldly towards loyal traditional allies such as Israel preferring instead to cosy up to populations that have long displayed openly anti-American and anti-Western attutudes and obsequious towards Islamic cultures that does make me wonder if he was really the best choice.

    If that’s what Congressman Mike Coffman was getting at there then I kind of have to reluctantly agree with him.

    OTOH, if it was just code for “uppity n***r” then I certainly disagree with that and oppose such racism.

  • StevoR

    In a nutshell :

    I think it is legitimate to raise evidence based questions over whether Obama

    1) Is truly culturally an American – and theres more to this than just birth or naturalisation certificates.

    (Yeah, he was born in Hawaii but he wasn’t raised by Americans in America.)

    2) Whether Obama really understands and respects the majority of his countryfolk.

    &

    3) Whether Obama actually loves his nation or not.

    (Counter exhibit A – Jeremiah Wright, B – “Weathermen” link past, C – Bowing so low to Saudi dictators etc ..

  • dan4

    @24: “his preacher…spewing racial hate speech against whites…”

    Citation(s) needed.

    @25:”…constantly apologetic to other nations for his own country rather than defending and supporting it.”

    Citation(s) needed.

  • dan4

    @24: Also, was it ever actually conclusively proven that Obama was actually AT the Wright “God d*** America” sermon (and even if the answer to this question is “yes,” how do you that former was “happy” at listening to the latter say these words?)?

  • dan4

    @28: yikes, should have been “…how do you know that the former…”

  • dingojack

    Stevo – bit early to be a few past beer o’ clock isn’t it?

    3)

    A – Condemning a nation for having a culture that keeps a large part of their population at an economic, social and political disadvantage based on the colour of their skin is ‘unbecoming’ is it? Remember: “My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right.”

    B – I don’t remember any of the last four presidents (I’m excluding the present President) being criticised for being seen with or supporting Nelson Mandela, if the Weathermen were a terrorist organisation… *.

    C – Ferninand Marcos, Francisco Franco, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Augusto Pinochet … and so on.

    I’m sure courtesy is something you would value in a world leader (or perhaps you prefer boorishness?)

    Dingo

    —–

    * And exactly how many people did the Weathermen kill?

  • dan4

    @30: “if the Weathermen were a terrorist organization…”

    Steve’s “Weathermen” comment was basically false, anyway. Obama’s association with Ayers was YEARS after there was any such thing as “the Weathermen” (i.e., the former never had any “link” with the group).

  • sunsangnim

    Now when I hear “American exceptionalism” I can’t help but think of the hilarious David Cross clip that you played on your radio show:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QBlsqtSNWXw

  • birgerjohansson

    Any smart politician is willing to learn from the experiences of other countries in adressing common problems.

    For instance, comprehensive health insurance can be done in many different ways, but all of them -as seen from examples abroad- appear to be superior to the mess that is US health care.

  • StevoR

    @ dingojack :

    Stevo – bit early to be a few past beer o’ clock isn’t it?

    Nope!

    @dan4 says:

    Steve’s “Weathermen” comment was basically false, anyway. Obama’s association with Ayers was YEARS after there was any such thing as “the Weathermen” (i.e., the former never had any “link” with the group).

    Ayers was the leader of the Weatherman group. Any association is bad enough.

  • StevoR

    @30. Dingojack :

    A – Condemning a nation for having a culture that keeps a large part of their population at an economic, social and political disadvantage based on the colour of their skin is ‘unbecoming’ is it?

    Yes.

    Is that supposed to be a trick question or summin?

    The USA offers people more freedoms and opportunities than pretty much anywhere else on the globe. That’s why so many folks emigrate to it y’know, right?

    B – I don’t remember any of the last four presidents (I’m excluding the present President) being criticised for being seen with or supporting Nelson Mandela, if the Weathermen were a terrorist organisation… *.

    Huh? Non-sequiteur there?

    C – Ferninand Marcos, Francisco Franco, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, Augusto Pinochet … and so on.

    The Shah of Iran was infinitely preferable to the Islamofascist theocracy that replaced him. As for the others, Realpolitiks really. Yeah they were pretty nasty dictators. Too many of thsoe in the world. Too few good alternatives to ’em too.

    I’m sure courtesy is something you would value in a world leader (or perhaps you prefer boorishness?)

    Dingo

    Courtesy yes. Kow-towing too low and being too slavishly obsequious not-so-much.

    —–* And exactly how many people did the Weathermen kill?

    Dunno. How many do you reckon they’d need to kill to earn your disapproval?

    @28. dan4 :

    @24: Also, was it ever actually conclusively proven that Obama was actually AT the Wright “God d*** America” sermon (and even if the answer to this question is “yes,” how do you that former was “happy” at listening to the latter say these words?)?

    Obama kept attending and supporting his pastor Jeremiah Wright.. Unforgivable in my view.

    Oh & got any evidence to say Obama, one of Wright’s regulars wasn’t there for that one? Or that he wouldn’t have herad of it later?

  • StevoR

    @35. StevoR (me.) :

    A – Condemning a nation for having a culture that keeps a large part of their population at an economic, social and political disadvantage based on the colour of their skin is ‘unbecoming’ is it?” [Dingojack -ed.]

    Yes.

    Is that supposed to be a trick question or summin?

    D’oh! I meant “No” there.

    It was a flippin’ trick question.

    I thought you were meaning a nation havinga l=cukture , missed the Condemning bit.

    Also NOT what Jeremiah Wright was saying. Wright wa sjust calling for God to damn America and was also attacking Americans based on their race specifically skin colour.

  • puppygod

    @24 StevoR

    The United States can at least argue that it is the world’s biggets superpower with an enviable record of achievement in many araes such as winning the Space Race and being the only nation to land humans on the Moon.

    Tee-hee.

    Sputnik. Laika. Gagarin. Tershkova. Leonov. Venera 3. Salyut.

    You seem to use pretty loose definition of victory. ‘Tis was no game over. US just unlocked one of the achievements.

  • StevoR

    @ ^ Puppygod : Neil Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin, Pete Conrad, Al Bean, Al Shepherd, Edgar Mitchell, John Young, David Scott, Charlie Duke, Jim Irwin, Gene Cernan, Harrison Schmitt

    Versus not a single cosmonaut.

    Then there all all the CSM pilots from Michael Colins to Ronald Evans, the crews of Apollo 13<, Apollo 8 & Apollo 10.

    Yes, the Americans won alright. Bigtime.

  • dingojack

    If no, what’s your obkection then?

    Dingo

  • http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

    “Used to be a pretty reasonable although conservative guy. Now, I don’t know.”

    The tumor metastisized?

    SteveR:

    Thanks for this:

    “What the Congressman said about Obama’s lack of patriotism is something that could be considered a valid criticism. The fact that Obama happily listened to his preacher calling for the nation he wanted to lead to be “dammned” and spewing racial hate speech against whites is something that I think should trouble us and make us at least strongly question Obama’s suitability to be POTUS. Hilary Clinton would’ve been a better choice for the Democratic Party’s nominee of 2008 in my view.”

    With all of the reading that I usually have to do before concluding that someone is trolling, it is refreshing to have them out themselves sooner, rather than later.

    You’re completely full of shit, btw, but I’ll leave to other, patient commenters, to enlighten you, troll.

  • http://www.facebook.com/j.t.delaney joedelaney

    Is that supposed to be a trick question or summin?

    The USA offers people more freedoms and opportunities than pretty much anywhere else on the globe. That’s why so many folks emigrate to it y’know, right?

    In terms of the percentage of foreign born residents (12.81% of our population), the US ranks #42 in the world — right between Moldova and Germany. Excuding microstates, the countries that have the largest foreign born populations are places like Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Palestine, Bahrain, and Jordan. Jesus, what a shitty metric. If I were looking for statistics for bragging, I’d keep on looking.

  • Ichthyic

    Rep. Coffman is using code to argue we have an uppity nigger in the White House; a nigger who must go precisely because he’s an uppity nigger.

    Maybe Mel Brooks had America right all along.

    *sigh*

  • Ichthyic

    ….top comment on the linked video:

    It’s like watching a Western version of Obama’s inauguration ceremony

  • Ichthyic

    The fact that Obama happily listened to his preacher calling for the nation he wanted to lead to be “dammned”

    W had regular weekly calls with Ted Haggard.

    I also seem to recall him inviting Sung Myung Moon to a conference with various representatives and congressman shortly after his inauguration.

    Mitt Romney belongs to a religion whose founder frequently called for the destruction of the United States.

    this is a fun game!

    whose next?

  • dan4

    @45: (*Raises hand*) I’m next! At the 2007 “Values Voters” Conference, a Christian music choir sang a delightful ditty called “Why Should God Bless America?” Several GOP presidential hopefuls were present, including Mike Huckabee, were present at this event. None of them left in protest after the anti-America song was played.

  • http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    dan4 “At the 2007 ‘Values Voters’ Conference, a Christian music choir sang a delightful ditty called “Why Should God Bless America?”

    I watched it. Engel v Vitale (sung as “The courts ruled prayer out of our schools/In June of ’62/Told the children/you are your own God now/So you can make the rules” because shut up that’s why) and Roe v Wade? That’s it? Surely they could have dug up more resentment than that. Value Voters are made from the stuff.

  • StevoR

    @40. democommie : Out of morbid curiosity – why is expressing my view here “trolling” exactly?

    What in your view is wrong with what I’ve said there?

    I’m no troll, just someone with a few opinions of my own who sometimes expresses them here – and backs them up with good reasons.

    You, OTOH, seem to have given no good reasons to support your ad hominem attack on me.

  • StevoR

    @41.joedelaney says:

    In terms of the percentage of foreign born residents (12.81% of our population), the US ranks #42 in the world — right between Moldova and Germany. Excuding microstates, the countries that have the largest foreign born populations are places like Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Palestine, Bahrain, and Jordan. Jesus, what a shitty metric. If I were looking for statistics for bragging, I’d keep on looking.

    Okay, didn’t know that and suspect you may be engaging in some statistical tomfoolery and cherry-picking – using wrong metric / criterion there perhaps – but ok.

    BTW. Palestine? There’s no such nation and incidentally, never has been only the Occupied Palestinian territories (Themselves split between Hamas-run Gaza & Fatah-run West Bank) which are controlled by Israel which automatically makes your figures look dubious. Source please?

    As for other key statistics, try the nationality of Moon Walkers which I’ve already offered or the idenity of the one global superpower still standing since WWII. (No it ain’t the People’s Republic of China! Not yet.)

  • StevoR

    @44. Ichthyic :

    “The fact that Obama happily listened to his preacher calling for the nation he wanted to lead to be “dammned”” [-StevoR -ed.]

    W had regular weekly calls with Ted Haggard.

    Yes and ..?

    Haggard is a skeevy, unpleasant religious hypocrite but I don’t recall ever hearing he wanted his own nation destroyed or preaching racial hatred as J. Wright did.

    BTW. I’m no fan of Bush or Obama or Clinton for that matter. All politicians pretty much stink.

    I also seem to recall him inviting Sung Myung Moon to a conference with various representatives and congressman shortly after his inauguration.

    Relevance? Sung Moon may be an odious cult leader but far as I know he hasn’t called for the USA to be dammed or incited race hate.

    Mitt Romney belongs to a religion whose founder frequently called for the destruction of the United States.

    A long time ago and not I believe what Mittens – horrid as that slimeball is – thinks now or sits happily in his church listening to. Lots of other disgusting rubbish I’m sure but not that particular anti-American type of it.

    Oh & I’d rather see Obama win than Rmoney when it comes to the lesser of evils thing. I just don’t think either person is their parties best choice or a good presidential material.

    .. this is a fun game!

    Glad you’re enjoying it. Even if you are losing rather badly!:-P

  • dingojack

    Stevo – Trolling (in your case) is bringing up the same multiply debunked right-wing talking points again and again as if they were fresh or even relevant.

    We’ve already dealt with Palestine, multiple times.

    I direct your attention to country with the most authors with surname ‘Dumas’ (equally as irrelevant as your example).

    Dingo

  • StevoR

    @ ^ Dinjojack :

    Well I don’t think I’m trolling then because I’m not bringing up “Palestine” – merely that the inclusion of a non-existant “nation” on the statistics list cited by (#41.) joedelaney catss doubt on the veracity of his figures.

    I think we also disagree when it comes to your claim of debunked right-wing talking points which I would say are just real facts or personal opinions -and its clear which is which.

    I also think it is too easy and wrong in many ways for some commenters here to alledge “trolling” when someone merely disagrees with them and offers another perspective or view of things.

  • StevoR

    Also having authors with the surname Dumas vs being the only nation to put humans on the Moon? Equally relevant? Ya reckon?

    I don’t think so.

  • dingojack

    Yep.

    As to Plestine we have this conversation before (at twice) you have offered no (relevant) rebuttal – go look it up.

    Dingo

  • StevoR

    Incidentally, I’m not “Right wing” in most of my views either.

    Not Left wing and also not Right wing – I

    m politically independent and centrist if you have to have political labels for me – which you don’t.

    I take things issue by issue based on thinking for myself.

    The political Left gets some things right and other things wrong – & ditto the opposite political camp.

  • StevoR

    @53. dingojack :

    Yep.

    Yep what? That’s yes referring to ..?

    As to Plestine we have this conversation before (at twice) you have offered no (relevant) rebuttal – go look it up.

    Dingo

    I’m guessing its more a case of you disagreeing with my rebuttals rather than them actually being irrelevant but, meh, them’s for another thread. Post the links to where you – i’m sure wrongly – think I was “debunked” and explain why you disagree on them and I’ll take it up there if you’re really keen to go there.