Garrow, Santilli Call For Military Coup

Jim Garrow, the con man who claims Obama tried to nuke the United States, and Pete Santilli, the far-far-far-right radio talk show host who once said he wants to shoot Hillary Clinton in the vagina, agree on one thing: That the time has come for a military coup to “restore our republic.”

Santilli: That change that we’re referring to, and I do have hope that it could be done if we have the numbers and we do have the numbers, if 300 million people who we could potentially get to rise up and if we had them all standing in the streets, standing still with a national strike and shut the economic system down, it cuts off the lifeblood of the elite, they no longer have that wealth flow. But that change, because we’ve spent decades ignoring this, they’ve been preparing for this for tens of years, for the past thirty or forty years internally to use all of these tactics that we’ve used to save the entire world, to police the world, to spread freedom throughout the world, now all of these tactics are being used against us by domestic enemies. But I think that that change must come forcefully, it has to happen in a short period of time. I say forcefully in that we need to abruptly let Obama know, it is time for you to go, you need to resign, you need to leave.

We have an opportunity here where our military commanders can affect arrests on these criminals. Do we not? Do you think that’s going to happen? I’m not calling for — well, yes I’m calling for the military to restore our Republic. Is it a military coup? I would say that it’s probably the most orderly fashion to do this. But don’t you agree that it must be a forceful, abrupt change. It can be peaceful but it has to happen in a short period of time, doesn’t it?

Garrow: I believe it should, I believe it could, I believe it may, but I also believe this: three percent of the population, that’s all it took at the very beginning of this Republic. It was only three percent that actually fought for freedoms and the Republic and the new nation, only three percent. All we need is three percent of the population to rise up now and we can control the country.

Then Garrow showed just how completely delusional he is with this prediction:

Garrow: It’s called Operation American Spring and it springs from that whole notion of what was going on with the Egypt groups, the people in Egypt rising up and saying ‘hey we want a return to freedom and not to a repressive Muslim regime.’

Santilli: Where is this going to take place? It’s on May 16.

Garrow: It’s on May 16 and it’s going to be in the Mall. They’re expecting 30 million people. There’s never been a gathering as large as they’re predicting for this event.

They? Who is this “they” that are expecting 30 million people? It will be a few thousand, tops.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • http://zenoferox.blogspot.com/ Zeno

    These are people who (a) can’t count and (b) don’t count.

  • http://www.gregory-gadow.net Gregory in Seattle

    I started a petition at the White House “We the People” site that calls for the president to “Apply the full weight of federal laws against individuals engaging in seditious activity. Free speech is good, but openly calling for the armed overthrow of the government is going too far.

  • Jordan Genso

    On May 18th, 30.1 million people are going to show up for a gathering of their own, and they will call it “Operation American Pre-Summer”.

    And now, everyone else can claim that for my event:

    “There’s never been a gathering as large as they’re predicting for this event.”

    Wow. Such an accomplishment, and it only took 30 seconds to achieve.

  • dingojack

    “if 300 million people who we could potentially get to rise up and if we had them all standing in the streets..”

    This from a bunch of losers who can’t even organise a rally that would fill a phone box.

    Dingo

  • raven

    Bunch of wimps. They haven’t thought it through.

    Fox’s Benghazi Expert Endorsed Assassinating Obama Last Week …

    mediamatters. org/ blog/2014/01/03/foxs…assassinating-oba/197411‎

    6 days ago – Scheuer, a former CIA officer with a long history of extreme rhetoric, has appeared … Scheuer endorsed the assassinations of both Obama and British Prime Minister …. as “lazy” and calling “hunger” a superior policy to jobless benefits. … How Bob Woodward Poisoned The Debate Of Bob Gates’ New Book.

    Robert Sheuer, Fox news Benghazi “expert”, Georgetown professor, and right wing kook has just called for Obama’s assassination. They do this a lot, lately.

    Death threats are felonies. Unless you are a Fox news talking head, I guess.

  • raven

    Daily Kos: Man arrested with 48 bombs: NRA member & ex-College Republican …

    ww. dailykos .com/…/-Man-arrested-with-48-bombs-NRA-member-ex-C…‎

    2 days ago – An Indiana man pulled over for speeding in Ohio had 48 bombs and four guns in … Year’s Day arrest on a count of illegal manufacture or processing of

    Speaking of violent right wing extremists, some guy from Indiana was arrested a few days ago with 48 bombs in his car. It’s not yet clear what he was going to do with them.

    I’m not seeing why you need that many bombs to be a terrorist either. My guess is that he was going to sell them or give them to others. Or maybe he was just going to take them to his church. What would jesus bomb?

  • http://www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    openly calling for the armed overthrow of the government is going too far.

    No, I think it’s actually appropriate to discuss armed overthrow of a government that is out of control and has violated the social contract. That’s OK. As in: “Is it time to raise the barricades and prepare for a repressive attack from the government?” It’s actions that count, not words. Granted, there’s a lot of “incitement” and “conspiracy” issues to take into account but otherwise you’re handing the government a blank check to do an Anwar Al-Awlaki on anyone who speaks out against abusive power.

  • Mr Ed

    DC’s infrastructure won’t allow for 30 million people to show up so a part of that total will be virtual attendees. There is already a group who to show their support for America and the rally on the mall will be going to the food court at the Mall of America.

  • http://www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    What would jesus bomb?

    Wall Street.

    Oh, wait, it’s been done (and they never figured out who did it; maybe it was jesus)

  • http://www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    “if 300 million people who we could potentially get to rise up and if we had them all standing in the streets..”

    Maybe they could block a couple bridges. Millions of people stuck in traffic is kinda in the same ballpark, isn’t it?

  • http://www.clanfield.net janiceintoronto

    Oh Marcus, how could you even think of having these poor people blocking bridges? I’m disappointed in you. Why, these are True American Patriots®, and there they’d be, stuck on bridges incapable of fighting the disease that has run rampant in the capitol.

    Poor Freedom Fighters never had a chance against the blocked bridges.

    What a sad day in history this will be.

    Now, I have to get back to my bong.

    And have a nice day in the nice Canadian way…

  • tfkreference

    300 million? They’d need well under half that to elect a president (the total population is the US is about 320 million, and kids can’t vote). To follow Zeno’s comment, there are three types of people: those who are good at math and those who aren’t.

  • eric

    Free speech is good, but openly calling for the armed overthrow of the government is going too far.

    I agree with Marcus. If we want to keep our speech free, we have to be willing to work to tell the difference between bluster, oratory, sanctimonious blowhards on the one hand, credible threats on the other, and punish only the latter. Not every utterance of “I’ll kill you” is attempted murder, and not every utterance of “we should storm the white house” is sedition. The justice and police system will probably not always get the distinction correct, but they need to try…and I would even say that they should err on the side of assuming the former (i.e., it’s bluster) when it’s unclear which of the two an utterance is.

  • John Hinkle

    …for the past thirty or forty years internally to use all of these tactics that we’ve used to save the entire world, to police the world, to spread freedom throughout the world…

    We’re the good guys. We wear white hats. We wear white shirts and trousers.

    But someone in the White House is black, if you take my meaning.

  • busterggi

    Someone really must teach these nuts that a republic is ruled by an elite class and is not a democracy – which is one reason the US is as fucked up as it is, we already have a republic run by elites/the rich/corporations instead of a democracy.

  • colnago80

    Excuse me, it is my information that calling for the violent overthrow of the government is a felony.

    By the way, I seem to recall from comments on a post earlier in the week that Garrow is a Canadian. I guess calling for the violent overthrow of the US Government in Canada isn’t illegal.

  • http://www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    calling for the violent overthrow of the US Government in Canada isn’t illegal.

    No, that’s “regime change” and “nation building” and it’s totally OK to do that.

  • Abdul Alhazred

    Real life “Illinois Nazis”.

    Easy to hate, but don’t matter.

  • colnago80

    Re raven @ #6

    As I understand it, it is a federal felony to even talk about assassinating the POTUS, let alone advocating it.

  • colnago80

    Re Marcus Ranum @ #17

    No, that’s “regime change” and “nation building” and it’s totally OK to do that. Only for an American talking about a foreign country.

  • Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    Thought experiment, colnago: if Israel were advocating the assassination of the US president, would it be okay then, or no?

  • Moggie

    if 300 million people who we could potentially get to rise up and if we had them all standing in the streets, standing still with a national strike

    No, not standing still! Get them to jump up and down at the same time! That would be awesome!

  • matty1

    if 300 million people who we could potentially get to rise up and if we had them all standing in the streets, standing still with a national strike and shut the economic system down, it cuts off the lifeblood of the elite, they no longer have that wealth flow.

    I’m confused, these are right wing extremists calling for a general strike to shut down a capitalist economic system and cut off the wealth of the elite?

    Karl Marx to the red courtesy phone please.

  • eric

    I’m confused, these are right wing extremists calling for a general strike to shut down a capitalist economic system and cut off the wealth of the elite?

    Don’t worry, if they somehow miraculously pulled it off, they would then blame it happening on the democrats.

  • http://www.gregory-gadow.net Gregory in Seattle

    @marcus #7, @eric #13 – According to 18 U.S. Code § 2385:

    Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or

    Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or

    Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—

    Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

    If two or more persons conspire to commit any offense named in this section, each shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.

    As used in this section, the terms “organizes” and “organize”, with respect to any society, group, or assembly of persons, include the recruiting of new members, the forming of new units, and the regrouping or expansion of existing clubs, classes, and other units of such society, group, or assembly of persons.

    The right wing, including people considered credible leaders of the right wing movement, are violating this law, repeatedly and with increasing frequency. The job of the President is to see that the laws of the United States are faithfully executed. I don’t think it is unreasonable to demand that the Executive Office does its job.

  • colnago80

    Re #21

    Absolutely not.

  • Ben P

    I started a petition at the White House “We the People” site that calls for the president to “Apply the full weight of federal laws against individuals engaging in seditious activity. Free speech is good, but openly calling for the armed overthrow of the government is going too far.

    Jefferson’s quote about the “tree of liberty” is often horribly overused, but it does actually apply in this situation. The portion that everyone quotes is “the tree of liberty must, from time to time, be refereshed by the blood of patriots and tyrants.”

    However, the reason people usually use this quote wrong is because they don’t have or don’t care about the context.

    The quote is from a letter Thomas Jefferson wrote to William Stephens Smith, a son in law of John Adams in November 1787. He was discussing Shay’s rebellion and the way it was being used in the British Press. For reference, Shay’s rebellion began when a group of Revolutionary War Veterans in Massachuetts started protesting due to financial hardship. The leaders of the protests were arrested, then Daniel Shays gathered a group of men and seized several courthouses in rural massachusetts in order to stop those courts from hearing debt recovery cases. Massachuetts mobilized an army, and Shays set out to seize the Springfield army to prevent the government troops from using the weapons there. There was a brief battle in which half a dozen men were killed and the rebellion broke and fled.

    Jefferson’s response to the rebellion was this.

    can history produce an instance of a rebellion so honourably conducted? I say nothing of it’s motives. They were founded in ignorance, not wickedness. God forbid we should ever be 20. years without such a rebellion.[1] The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it’s liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it’s natural manure. Our Convention has been too much impressed by the insurrection of Massachusets: and in the spur of the moment they are setting up a kite to keep the hen yard in order. I hope in god this article will be rectified before the new constitution is accepted.”

    I think that quote is largely applicable here. Sure, Santelli and Garrow are utter idiots who are wrong about just about everything. They won’t get any popular support. But that doesn’t mean the government should go after them because they’re talking about it.

  • John Pieret

    if 300 million people who we could potentially get to rise up and if we had them all standing in the streets

    These people are seriously deaf from having spent too much time in the rightwing echo chamber.

    yes I’m calling for the military to restore our Republic. Is it a military coup? I would say that it’s probably the most orderly fashion to do this.

    Because history teaches us that military coups usually restore democratic republics in a quick and orderly fashion.

    It’s on May 16 and it’s going to be in the Mall. They’re expecting 30 million people. There’s never been a gathering as large as they’re predicting for this event.

    Translation: Larry Klayman is a piker!

  • Ichthyic

    That the time has come for a military coup to “restore our republic.”

    I think he thinks he’s living in Congo.

  • Ichthyic

    Because history teaches us that military coups usually restore democratic republics in a quick and orderly fashion.

    well, OTOH, you have Thailand, who deposed a fraud who manipulated the democratic vote via their military.

    then you have Egypt… who basically just recently did the same thing.

    I’m sure there are other examples.

  • Ichthyic

    Get them to jump up and down at the same time! That would be awesome!

    LOL

  • whheydt

    I have a perfect plan to get Obama out of the White House. My plan will take 3 years plus about 2 weeks from now.

  • bmiller

    Icthyic: I am not Thai, but I think it is a little more complicated than that.

    If anything, the current rebellion in Thailand is led by conservative tea party types more than anything else. When a party advocating policies one doesn’t like wins, it is easy to dismiss their victory as manipulation.

  • Trebuchet

    Obama can prevent those 30 million from gathering just by appointing Chris Christie’s highway guy as Secretary of Transportation.

  • grumpyoldfart

    They don’t mean a word of it. They know it’s never going to happen. They love the system exactly as it is. It gives them heaps of money and they are extremely happy about it.

  • http://www.pandasthumb.org Area Man

    Who is this “they” that are expecting 30 million people? It will be a few thousand, tops.

    A few dozen, tops.

  • http://www.pandasthumb.org Area Man

    If we want to keep our speech free, we have to be willing to work to tell the difference between bluster, oratory, sanctimonious blowhards on the one hand, credible threats on the other, and punish only the latter. …and I would even say that they should err on the side of assuming the former (i.e., it’s bluster) when it’s unclear which of the two an utterance is.

    I mostly agree, but… can you imagine if these guys were Muslim, and/or had dark skin, or were left-wing radicals? I really don’t see why if you’re white, Christian, and conservative that literally advocating the violent overthrow of the government is supposed to be shrugged off as joke, just some harmless crazy talk, whereas if you’re not a member of the privileged class, you get taken seriously by the FBI and they infiltrate your group. (Come to think of it, that’s kind of what it means to be privileged — you get away with shit that others don’t.)

    I’m certainly not in favor of overzealous enforcement here, but there’s a ridiculous double standard going on.

  • iangould

    “well, OTOH, you have Thailand, who deposed a fraud who manipulated the democratic vote via their military.

    then you have Egypt… who basically just recently did the same thing.”

    Obscene and preposterous as this undoubtedly seems to you and countless other purported liberals, people voting for a candidate who you disapprove of doesn’t amount to manipulating the system.

    Not even when the people in question are brown.

    Sorry.

  • John Pieret

    Ichthyic @ 30:

    well, OTOH, you have Thailand, who deposed a fraud who manipulated the democratic vote via their military.

    then you have Egypt… who basically just recently did the same thing.

    I don’t know enough about Thailand’s situation to really comment, though I have heard the same as iangould @ 38.

    But in Egypt it’s been some six months now with no democracy in sight and the coup doing the equivalent of jailing all Republican leaders (you know, the voter supprssion guys) and confiscating all the party’s assets. Not to mention the perhaps thousands of people who have been killed in the aftermath. Doesn’t sound quick and orderly to me.

    I’m sure there are other examples.

    Yeah, those were among the ones I was thinking of.

  • steffp

    @Icthyic, #30

    “OTOH, you have Thailand, who deposed a fraud who manipulated the democratic vote via their military”

    Sorry, epic fail. The Thai military, since 1932, has undertaken 18 coups d’ etat, 11 of them successful. That in itself indicates that Military coups don’t seem to have the effect you claim.

    The example you seem to have in mind is the 2006 coup against Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra, who had won two landslide parliamentary elections with populist policies, aimed at bettering conditions in the rural north. The coup was provoked by monarchist organisations, the “yellow Shirt” movement, mostly based in Bangkok and the (Muslim) South.

    All Thai parliamentary elections were and are scrutinized for vote fraud and vote buying. The latter was practiced by all parties, handouts are common. Regularly a few percent of MPs lose their seats due to such allegations. The yellow shirt propaganda machine calls the populist policies “indirect vote buying”, but its political arm, the Democrats, tried the same tactics in the last election. They lost, for the fourth time in a row, by a landslide.

    Now the Democrat MPs have resigned, so parliament had to be resolved, and new elections have to be held constitutionally. The Democrats refuse to take part in those elections – although the legal framework for elections was constructed and enacted by a the last Democrat – led Government (2007-2011), thus trying to produce a situation of limbo, and trying to provoke another Military coup. But the situation is different in 2013 inasfar as the King, who was backing the last couple of coups, is unfit to act – he is severely ill – and the crown prince does not have any authority whatsoever, which keeps the king from resigning. It’s the end of the Chakri dynasty that we’re watching right now, and all the traditional power groups and brokers are trying to cope with that situation. I usually live in Thailand, but I’ve decided to stay off country for the next three months.

  • StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @37. Area Man :

    … can you imagine if these guys were Muslim, and/or had dark skin, or were left-wing radicals? I really don’t see why if you’re white, Christian, and conservative that literally advocating the violent overthrow of the government is supposed to be shrugged off as joke, just some harmless crazy talk, whereas if you’re not a member of the privileged class, you get taken seriously by the FBI and they infiltrate your group ..

    I wouldn’t be surprised – in fact I’d be surprised if the FBI hadn’t – infiltrated the tea party and far right extremists too.

    The relevant counter terrorism teams and groups out there are no doubt aware of this sort of rhetoric and the groups involved almost certainly far better than anyone else.

    Assuming that right wing hate /terror / militia /subsversive groups are NOT being targeted seems to me an unlikely proposition indeed.

  • Nick Gotts

    What iangould said@38. Neither Thaksin Shinawatra nor Morsi is the perfect democratic statesperson, but both were freely elected by the people of their country. In Thailand, Shinawatra’s party has won repeated elections, and the opposition (laughably called the Democratic Party) wants the current government, led by his sister, replaced by an unelected “People”s Assembly”, because they know fine well they will lose any free and fair election. Similarly, the secularists in Egypt couldn’t get their act together, so they gave the army the excuse it was waiting for to restore military rule.

  • StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @38. iangould :

    ” – then you have Egypt… who basically just recently did the same thing.” – Ichthyic.

    Obscene and preposterous as this undoubtedly seems to you and countless other purported liberals, people voting for a candidate who you disapprove of doesn’t amount to manipulating the system.

    Do you really think that’s a fair and accurate description of the situation in Egypt?

    I do not.

    Mohammad Morsi was showing every sign of turning into a dictator and seeking to impose Shariah law and an Islamist dictatorship on the nation and only barely scraped into power, very quickly becoming so I gather exceedlingly unpopular among most Egyptians. There were demonstrations against him, Morsi had clearly lost the right to govern democratically and he failed to do the right thing and either reisgn outright or callfresh elections. The military eventually stepped in and acted on behalf of the wishes of the majority of the Egyptian people.

    Also, last I heard there will indeed be new elections sometime onc ethe situationhas calmed down enough to make them possible.

    Plus, it is the truth that the Muslim brotherhood is a terrorist group, indeed it is one of the oldest and one where Al Quaida’s leader Ayman Al-Zawahiri started his Jihadist career in plus many Hamas terrorists are or were closely linked to it as well.

    Terrorist and Jihadist groups are not legitimate political parties and seek to destroy democracy not apply it.

    Not even when the people in question are brown.

    Well what the flippin’ heck has superficial skin colour here got to do with the price of eggs – or, rather with this situation and topic more precisely? I’d suggest sweet sod all.

    FWIW. Egyptians are usually considered Semitic ie. technically kinda “white” but this is totally irrelevant and means precisely zip.

  • StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @42. Nick Gotts :

    “Similarly, the secularists in Egypt couldn’t get their act together, so they gave the army the excuse it was waiting for to restore military rule.”

    Emphasis added.

    Don’t you mean the *Islamists* there – specifically Muhammad Morsi who, let’s not forget, is now on trial for murdering opposition activists and conspiring with Hamas among other things. (Those Nick would be the secularists you were wrongly referring to I think)

    See :

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25476558

    “Ousted Egypt leader Morsi to face third criminal trial” BBC world news online, 21st December 2013.

    BTW. Nick Gotts, I’m wondering, why do you seemingly love Islam and Islamists so much? What’s tehrui appeal to you that you keep taking their side ion global politics so often? Curious.

  • StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    Muhammad Morsi who, let’s not forget, is now on trial for murdering opposition activists and conspiring with Hamas among other things. (Those Nick would be the secularists you were wrongly referring to I think)

    For clarity : the “those” in brackets there being the opposition activist who were murdered by Morsi who was clearly becoming a theocratic dictator and refusing to follow the wishes of most Egyptians by calling new elections or / & resigning and leaving power.

  • greg1466

    Of course these idiots do realize that the rich ‘elites’ that control the country are almost exclusively conservatives right?

  • John Pieret

    StevoR @ 43

    Mohammad Morsi was showing every sign of turning into a dictator and seeking to impose Shariah law and an Islamist dictatorship on the nation and only barely scraped into power, very quickly becoming so I gather exceedlingly unpopular among most Egyptians.

    “Barely scraped into power” by an almost identical percentage as Obama beat Romney. And, of course, Obama has been “showing every sign of turning into a dictator” if you credit some significant sector of our electorate. As to “very quickly becoming so I gather exceedlingly unpopular among most Egyptians,” Google ‘if the election were held today Romney would win’ to see the usual losers chant. If that is an excuse for a military coup, it’s doubtful that any American President would have survived to complete his term.

    last I heard there will indeed be new elections sometime onc ethe situationhas calmed down enough to make them possible

    Uh huh. Promises, promises.

    Now, I think Morsi was certainly less than democratic as we understand the term. Part of that problem was due to the fact they the Egyptians didn’t have a Constitution written mostly by Enlightenment scholars but, instead, by a populist majority with clear similarity to our own Tea Baggers. I shudder at the thought of our ever having a Constitutional Convention where everything, including the Bill of Rights, would be up for grabs. Fortunately, convening a Constitutional Convention in the US is difficult.

    My point is that military coups are swapping one set of problems for another and that will rarely turn out well. Your examples don’t come close to changinging my opinion.

  • steve84

    Given how entrenched religious fanaticism is in the US military, up to the highest levels of the Pentagon, and that right-wing politics is the only accepted political leaning, this is more realistic on some levels than it may seem. The religious right has been infiltrating the military for decades so they can use it for their purposes.

  • http://www.pandasthumb.org Area Man

    Plus, it is the truth that the Muslim brotherhood is a terrorist group…

    No, that is not true. The MB formally denounced terrorism several decades ago, and to the best of my knowledge, they have not been implicated in any significant terrorist actions, despite having millions of members and plenty of resources. They and Al Qaeda don’t get along for precisely this reason. And no Western nation regards them as a terrorist organization, despite the low hurdle for being declared one.

    Of course, if you choose the Pam Geller six-degrees-of-separation, brother’s-cousin’s-uncle’s-dog’s-roommate reasoning, you can prove that anyone is a terrorist. So please spare us that.

  • colnago80

    Re Area Man

    Excuse me, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is in bed with Hizbollah and Hamas, the later being one of their offshoots, and the MB in Syria. They have also been behind attacks on Coptic Christians in Egypt, which Morsi did nothing about.

    Re StevoR

    The reason why Gotts is pro Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is because he considers the current leader there, el Sisi, to be insufficiently anti Israel.

  • jnorris

    Ed, can you start a pool for May 16. There should be two, the first for the highest number of people who actually show up to protest.

    The second should be for the exact time of day when attendance peaks.

    Both numbers as determined by the DC police and the National Parks Service.

    Third pool: how many words Sarah Palin speaks before saying anything coherent not about the weather.

  • StevoR : Free West Papua, free Tibet, let the Chagossians return!

    @50. colnago80 :

    Re StevoR – The reason why Gotts is pro Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt is because he considers the current leader there, el Sisi, to be insufficiently anti Israel.

    That wouldn’t surprise me and may well be true. Nick Gotts certainly displays what seems to be a strong anti-Israel arguably anti-Semitic bias in his comments here. I’d like to see how he explains it however!

    @49. Area Man :

    You are factually in error. The Muslim brotherhood are very much guilty of terrorism in Egypt presently and elsewhere. Did you miss the fact that Ayman Al Zawahiri started his terrorist career with them and is now leader of Al Quaida and that Hamas was one of their offshoots?

    @47.John Pieret :

    “Barely scraped into power” by an almost identical percentage as Obama beat Romney.

    Well I guess that depends. The USA and Egypt have different electoral systems but Obama beat Romney rather crushingly in the figure that matters :

    the Electoral College vote being 332 to 206, for Obama and challenger Mitt Romney, respectively.

    Wikipedia page – United States elections, 2012.

    Versus Egypt’s 2012 election result :

    In the second round run-off on 16–17 June 2012, Mohammed Morsi won over Ahmed Shafiq with 51.73% over 48.27%.

    Maybe Egypt needs an electoral college?

    of course, Obama has been “showing every sign of turning into a dictator” if you credit some significant sector of our electorate. As to “very quickly becoming so I gather exceedlingly unpopular among most Egyptians,” Google ‘if the election were held today Romney would win’ to see the usual losers chant. If that is an excuse for a military coup, it’s doubtful that any American President would have survived to complete his term.

    A number of very good US presidents haven’t survived to complete their terms as it is. JFK and Lincoln springing to mind among others.

    Also there’s a pretty big difference I think between a relatively small group of Tea Party whingers who are deluded in their views about a president who isn’t seeming to become a dictator except in their fevered imaginations (Obama) and Morsi who really was seeming to be turning into a dictator. Plus, unlike Obama, Morsi really is an extremist and, incidentally exceptionally racist Muslim fundamentalist.

    (Morsi has notoriously referred to the Israelis as “blood-suckers”, “warmongers” and “descendants of apes and pigs.”)

    Now, I think Morsi was certainly less than democratic as we understand the term.

    Well on that we agree. I’d probably put it more strongly than you though.

    Morsi is a terrorist group leader, a would-be dictator and if the BBBc world news report is correct even a cop-killer. An all round nasty pasty who deserves along jail term at least. he is not fit and proper person to be president of anywhere – and nor is any other Islamic extremist terrorist group leader or member. By definition by belonging to such groups and following Jihadist ideology such people show they aren’t fit to hold power and don’t believe in democratic elections or the will of the people prevailing.

    Part of that problem was due to the fact they the Egyptians didn’t have a Constitution written mostly by Enlightenment scholars but, instead, by a populist majority with clear similarity to our own Tea Baggers. I shudder at the thought of our ever having a Constitutional Convention where everything, including the Bill of Rights, would be up for grabs. Fortunately, convening a Constitutional Convention in the US is difficult.

    Again we are in agreement.

    Egypt’s constitution ain’t a good one because it gives too much power to Islamists and their way of thinking. I think and hope the current Egyptian government has a redo and rethink of that constitution and other politicial institutions to make them more secular, less Islamic and thus better.

    My point is that military coups are swapping one set of problems for another and that will rarely turn out well. Your examples don’t come close to changinging my opinion.

    Well, it wasn’t actually me who gave Egypt as an example. Maybe to some degree you are correct but they are different problems and the severity of them is also different.

    Would you prefer to live in a government ruled by a pragmatic relatively benign military regime or under a theocratic Islamist regime which actively seeks to impose its oppressive religious bigotry upon everyone?

    Personally, I’ll opt for the military rulers over the theocratic zealots and ayatollahs every time.

    I think the statistics and histories of Egypt versus say Iran post Ayatollah Khomeni and /or Taliban ruled Afghanistan show the military dictatorships are far better for most of the residents of the respective nations than Islamist theocratic rulers.

    Neither, of course, is as good as living in a secular, Western democratic free nation – so I guess we all need to be really grateful for our luck on that score and try our best to maintain our nations (Australian in my case) secular, democratic, capitalist, non-military, very much non-Islamic style of governance.