Far Right Hypocrisy in Nevada

I’m getting more than a little tired of seeing the reaction from the far right to this standoff in Nevada where a rancher refuses to either start paying or stop grazing his cattle on federal land the way every other rancher does. The hypocrisy and the dishonest overreaction could hardly be more obvious.

This whole thing started more than 20 years ago when the Bureau of Land Management started limiting the area of federally owned land that was available for grazing and requiring ranchers to pay for the use of that land. This is an entirely reasonable thing to do. It is a public resource and private businesses should have to pay to exploit it for their own financial gain. The situation has been thoroughly litigated with at least two appeals court rulings in favor of the government’s position, but rancher Cliven Bundy has refused to comply with them. Finally the BLM ran out of patience and started physically removing his cattle from the land he has no legal right to have them on.

Cue the freakout from the far right as hundreds of heavily-armed militia types descend on the ranch, some of them clearly looking to spark a war with the government. And quite frankly, I’m not gonna be all that busted up about it if they get what they’re looking for. I’m tired of this shameless dishonesty and hypocrisy. These are the same people who scream about Obama violating the rule of law (and they’re right, he’s done so throughout his presidency), but when the rule of law favors the government’s position that all goes right out the window.

When even Breitbart and The Blaze are telling you you’re wrong, you’re so far out on the extremist fringe that you couldn’t see reality with the Hubble telescope. And Bundy is one of them, spouting that “sovereign state” nonsense you only hear from hardcore right wingers:

In the immediate aftermath of the infamous cattle roundup, Cliven Bundy granted a number of high profile media interviews continuing to deny—to the point of absolutely ignoring family history—what the federal courts have twice told him.

“I believe this is a sovereign state of Nevada,” Bundy recently told a radio reporter. “…I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But, I don’t recognize the United States Government as even existing.”

Host: “So essentially you have a deal already with Nevada and the Bureau of Land Management is essentially trying to revoke or renege that deal?”

Cliven Bundy: “Yeah, it gets back to the ownership of this. Who owns this land? Does the sovereign State of Nevada own this land within their borders? Or does the United States own this land with their borders? If United States owns this land then I guess I’m wrong. But what if this is a sovereign State of Nevada and Clark County, Nevada owns this land? The People of Clark County, Nevada owns this land.” (Emphasis added)

The answers to Mr. Bundy’s questions have been given—twice.

In reality, this has been federal land since the mid-1800s and was granted to the federal government by treaty:

The land being fought over by Bundy and federal agents, some 600,000 acres in Gold Butte, Nev., belongs to the U.S. government, according to a 2013 U.S. District Court ruling.

“[T]he public lands in Nevada are the property of the United States because the United States has held title to those public lands since 1848, when Mexico ceded the land to the United States,” the court said, adding that the federal government lawfully acquired ownership of the land under the Treaty of the Guadalupe Hidalgo.

That’s pretty much game, set and match. This is not a story of some brave, freedom-loving farmer standing up to the big, bad federal government. It’s the story of a rent-seeking businessman looking for a handout from Uncle Sam, demanding that he be allowed to profit from a public resource without paying a dime for it. And if the extremists want to fight about that, then it may we time to give them that fight.

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  • http://www.thelosersleague.com theschwa

    And if the extremists want to fight about that, then it may we time to give them that fight.

    I agree. Waco is so old, that the kids these days do not know how awful our socialist Marxist atheist Muslim government is. We need a NEW stand-off with crazies.

  • arakasi

    I’m fairly certain that threateningfederal agents to prevent them from enforcing the law is a felony offense. Since most of the people defending Bundy aren’t local, I wonder how many will find arrest warrents waiting for them once they get home.

  • D. C. Sessions

    I’m missing something here. This was litigated to the limit and he lost up and down the line.

    * Why hasn’t he had a close encounter of the contempt citation kind with the Court?

    * Why hasn’t the BLM gotten liens on his bank accounts and other property, perhaps including seizure of the accounts?

    * Maybe someone should tell the DEA that there’s a patch of hemp on his ranch — they’ll slap civil forfeiture on everything within a day’s drive without even looking and he can sue to get it back.

    Someone is seriously not on the ball here.

  • raven

    Cliven BundY: But, I don’t recognize the United States Government as even existing.”

    This is Sovereign Citizen nonsense. Kent Hovind tried it and got 8 1/2 years for not paying his taxes.

    These guys frequently end up in prison. And Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber was a Sovereign Citizen.

  • raven

    Cliven Bundy is a Welfare Queen!!! A Moocher. A taker.

    This guy only has 150 acres. He is running his cattle on 500,000 acres of BLM land. This is an incredible amount of BLM land he is using and abusing. It’s overgrazed by all accounts.

    Oddly enough he is also a Mormon with 14 kids. Mormonism is a historically violent religion. Nothing new here.

  • https://www.facebook.com/kalli.procopio Kalli Procopio

    If it wasn’t for the fact that the teabaggers would scream bloody murder and hypocritically claim all sorts of junk about government over reach, etc. etc. I would say this:

    They want to raise arms, send in the tanks and gunships. We’ll see how useful their AR-15’s are against armor, stand off rocket attacks and vulcan machine guns. The 1 million man Iraqi army couldn’t stand up against the US military, what are a handful of guys with hunting rifles going to do? I won’t pry their gun from their cold dead hand, I will pry it from their warm, charred dead hand.

  • John Pieret

    Heard about this on NPR. To add injury to insult, this land is so poor that no other ranchers want to use it because you can’t make money off of half-starved cattle. But those cattle can eat up the food and trample the habitat of an protected species of desert tortoise.

    http://www.npr.org/2014/04/14/303009951/nevada-ranch-dispute-ends-as-feds-back-down-for-now

  • tbp1

    Even if this guy were in the right legally (note the subjunctive), when exactly did we start allowing people accused of wrongdoing to preemptively rule on their own guilt or innocence? “Sorry, officers, you’re mistaken, I’m not a drug dealer. Go away now.” How would that go over?

  • raven

    Saveourwildhorses com

    Subsidized by taxpayers, public lands grazers pay far less than market value for federal forage and grazing fees on comparable state and private lands…

    Fee to graze one cow and calf for one month (AUM) on federal public lands (2003): $1.43.

    Average fee per AUM on state lands in the West (excluding Texas) (1998): $12.30.

    Average fee per AUM on private lands in eleven Western states (1999): $11.10.

    FWIW, the federal grazing program is a huge welfare program for the ranchers.

    They pay $1.43 per cow and calf for one month on federal BLM lands. It’s about 10% of the private or state rates.

    Cliven Bundy is a Moocher, a Welfare Queen. $1.43 isn’t much and a great deal but he hasn’t paid it in 20 years.

  • Menyambal

    The land is federal land, and Bundy knows that. He is lying and fogging to keep from paying his just debts. The land is overgrazed, and Bundy is to blame for that.

    I hope someone took names of all the folks who showed up to join him.

  • Ben P

    * Why hasn’t he had a close encounter of the contempt citation kind with the Court?

    * Why hasn’t the BLM gotten liens on his bank accounts and other property, perhaps including seizure of the accounts?

    * Maybe someone should tell the DEA that there’s a patch of hemp on his ranch — they’ll slap civil forfeiture on everything within a day’s drive without even looking and he can sue to get it back.

    They certainl could have sought those options, but each of those two options would require extra steps when the federal government is already a party.

    Think of it this way. If you have outsanding fines in a criminal court, the judge could do either of those things.

    The judge could hold you in contempt, but that would require a motion or petition for contempt from the prosecutor, a show cause order to be issued and served on the defendant, a hearing date set, a hearing held to find the defendnat is in contempt, and a sanction pronounced.

    The court could seize your assets, but courts aren’t omnicient, that would often require an order telling you to appear in court and identify your property and assets, the court issuing a writ directing the police to seize those assets, delivering that writ to a sherriff or federal marshall, and the marshall going to the bank to seize the funds.

    Or what really happens is the judge can issue an arrest warrant for unpaid fines. It will sit out there until the next time you encounter the police, they’ll arrest you and bring you in. You’ll appear before the judge and he’ll ask you why you haven’t paid your fines.

    The circumstances aren’t exactly the same but are pretty similar. The easiest action here is for BLM to simply round up the cattle and kick them off the land, not to go back to court and ask the judge to punish the guy for not following prior court orders.

  • nemistenem

    The dishonesty of this man and the RW media is astounding. The man, as with many ranchers in the west, treat public land as if they own it themselves – the lease rates for public lands grazing is a fraction of what is paid for the same privilege on private lands but that doesn’t stop some of these moochers from simultaneously abusing the land and that privilege while in the same breath railing against the system that supports them. Its a story often repeated – screaming support for their version of pure capitalism and the “market” without gov’t interference while feeding at the public trough. They should have listened to their mothers – don’t talk with your mouth full!

  • raven

    A lot of the dozens and dozens of rightwing nut websites are just full of lies.

    1. A common one is that Harry Reid, the Chinese, the Illuminati, and the Space Reptiles want to take his land for a solar power project.

    It’s just completely false. There was one planned but it was on the other side of the state, 90 miles away. It got cancelled due to some unfavorable economics.

    2. Cliven Bundy doesn’t own that 500,000 acres of BLM land. He has no title. He pays no state or local property taxes on it. He only discovered he owned it when he decided to stop paying his $1.43 cow/calf grazing fee in 1983.

  • Ben P

    Heard about this on NPR. To add injury to insult, this land is so poor that no other ranchers want to use it because you can’t make money off of half-starved cattle. But those cattle can eat up the food and trample the habitat of an protected species of desert tortoise.

    http://www.npr.org/2014/04/14/303009951/nevada-ranch-dispute-ends-as-feds-back-down-for-now

    Keep in mind, there’s a demographic that listens to NPR, and a demographic that reads Breitbart and watches Fox News. I don’t think there’s a lot of overlap there.

    If the public protestations of ranchers about the Delta Smelt in California are any clue, the protestations about the tortoise are entirely unconvincing to the latter demographic. They are explicitly of the opionion that the endangered species act is wrong and a federal overreach, taking away the *right* of americans to livelihood to protect “some damn fish.”

  • raven

    The easiest action here is for BLM to simply round up the cattle and kick them off the land, not to go back to court and ask the judge to punish the guy for not following prior court orders.

    Not any more.

    Allies Of Lawless Rancher Planned To Put Women ‘Up At …

    thinkprogress. org/…/militant-former-sheriff-planned-to-put-women-up-a…‎

    1 day ago – Former Arizona sheriff Richard Mack talks to Fox News Monday about … for 20 years to get off land that isn’t his,

    we’ll use women as human shields!”

    1. The militia were clearly out for blood. One of the leaders, ex Sheriff Mack said on TV that they planned to put women in front of them as human shields if there was a shootout.

    Well I suppose by wingnut xian standards that isn’t a bad idea. They are just women after all. But it won’t work with modern high powered automatic weapons. Your human shield is only going to last for the first bullet.

    But they will make nice martyrs on TV and Youtube.

    2. I took a deep breath and a glass of wine and looked at a few lunatic fringe websites. The hatred for the US government and the bloodlust were amazing. Some of these guys really want to kill someone, enough that they don’t mind dying themselves, preferably federal employees.

    3. They do kill often. One source the SPLC, says people on these websites have killed over 100 people in the last 5 years. A few days ago, one of them killed 3 xians in Kansas, mistaking them for Jews.

  • raven

    So now what for the BLM and feds.

    1. The BLM was right IMO, to withdraw. The raging rightwing nuts waving their assault rifles around were clearly waiting for an excuse to open fire.

    The feds and BLM would win in the end. But the cost was going to be high. It would be Waco all over again.

    ,

    * Why hasn’t he had a close encounter of the contempt citation kind with the Court?

    * Why hasn’t the BLM gotten liens on his bank accounts and other property, perhaps including seizure of the accounts?

    * Maybe someone should tell the DEA that there’s a patch of hemp on his ranch — they’ll slap civil forfeiture on everything within a day’s drive without even looking and he can sue to get it back.

    The BLM and feds are going to have to come up with another plan obviously.

    1. I would just put a lien on his ranch and cattle for the $1 million he owes the feds. And/or foreclose on it.

    2. Seize his bank accounts in bankruptcy for unpaid debts.

    3. By now he probably has violated numerous state and federal laws. You don’t point guns at the police doing their job in most jurisdictions. I doubt that he is bothering to pay his taxes either, not recognizing the US governement and all.

    They do that sometimes out here, point guns at the police. The police fire back and they end up dead a few minutes later.

    Just put a warrant out for his arrest and wait. If Cliven Bundy wants to sit out on his ranch forever, let him. That will work until he needs medical care and he is 67 already.

    The feds can afford to play a long game. Cliven Bundy is 67 but the feds will last a lot longer than he will.

  • http://timgueguen.blogspot.com timgueguen

    I would imagine Bundy is like a lot of that crowd. It won’t just be federal land he’s abusing, it will be any federal program he can claim a cheque from, all the while claiming he doesn’t believe the federal government exists, and trying every dodge possible to avoid paying taxes.

  • Moon Jaguar

    As a nation we have to name it: Bundy is nothing but a thief and all the weapon-waving is a made-for-television diversion.

  • Trebuchet

    Another of these “Sovereign Citizen” types was a resident of Steelhead Drive near Oso, WA. At one point some years ago he declared his corner of Snohomish County separate with himself as sheriff, and even tried to arrest the legitimate sheriff. He’s dead now, buried with his house by the recent landslide, ironically killed by a LACK of government regulation.

  • Chiroptera

    “So essentially you have a deal already with Nevada….”

    lol wut? A deal with a state over what you do on federal land?

    I’m guessing that the conversation went like this:

    Nevada Official: Well, yeah, you plans here are certainly within all the state laws that apply in this case. But since this is federal land, you’d better run this by the folks at the BLM, too.

    Wingnut McNutty: Aw right! We have a deal!

  • busterggi

    Bundy recently told a radio reporter. “…I abide by all of Nevada state laws. But, I don’t recognize the United States Government as even existing.”

    Yet somehow the ‘baggers consider him a true American patriot – even though he doesn’t recognise America as existing.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    But if the government cracks down on him, next they’ll come for me and my Mount Rushmore quarrying company!

  • John Pieret

    Ben P @ 14:

    there’s a demographic that listens to NPR, and a demographic that reads Breitbart and watches Fox News

    Trust me, I know it. I also know the demographic that hangs around here.

    Bundy and his ilk are no more concerned about the tortoises than they are about the cattle he is also abusing. That doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be pointed out.

  • raven

    But if the government cracks down on him, next they’ll come for me and my Mount Rushmore quarrying company!

    They’ve been seizing Hemp plantations on national forest lands for years.

    Next time you try to buy a natural fiber rope and can’t find one, blame the Forest Service.

  • velociraptor

    Anyone care to hazard a guess the position of the Teabaggists if the Feds tried to apprehend an inner-city Welfare fraud with five different SSNs were met by armed gang-bangers?

  • scienceavenger

    So an idiot named Bundy is acting like an old bigoted conservative asshole near Bunkerville. I haven’t enjoyed a name coincidence this much since Packwood committed sexual harrasment at Tailhook.

  • Chiroptera

    “But, I don’t recognize the United States Government as even existing.”

    lol

    But the United States Government recognizes that you are in violation of the law, and that’s actually the more important point.

  • http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

    Typical KKKristianist ReiKKKwing cowards and bullies.

    It would be worth the price of admission to watch them stand up to a properly trained group of U.S. Marshall’s with backing by the Nevada National Guard.

    Live by the sword, die by the Hellfire.

    “He’s dead now, buried with his house by the recent landslide, ironically killed by a LACK of government regulation.”

    Does he look anything like this?:

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photos+of+the+wicked+witch+of+the+east%2c+crushed+by+dorothy%27s+house&id=3D9F16C5F52F7DC02B187B99DE191E00E89C8BAA&FORM=IQFRBA#view=detail&id=3D9F16C5F52F7DC02B187B99DE191E00E89C8BAA&selectedIndex=0

    What, too soon?

  • http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

    Where the fuck are Zimmerman and Ex-Chiefie Kessler, when you need them?

  • marcus

    raven @ 9 “Fee to graze one cow and calf for one month (AUM) on federal public lands (2003): $1.43. ”

    Thanks for pointing this out and the comparisons. This is fucking ridiculous.

    There are lovely, historic camping areas that have been closed by the BLM for environmental preservation. However, if you want to sink a gas well and frack the hell out of it, or run way too many damn cattle on the same land (for ridiculously low fees) it is pretty much rubber stamped. Cattle are environmentally devastating in areas such as these, (wild-lands and desert mostly) they trample and shit all over everything. We call them “hooved locusts”.

  • Trebuchet

    Perhaps the feds should lease out the property — grazing rights only — to the State of Nevada, which can then charge Bundy something more like the going rate. After all, he recognizes the state, right? They can also sell the debt to one of those collection agencies who specialize in making peoples’ lives a living hell.

  • kyoseki

    Where the fuck are Zimmerman and Ex-Chiefie Kessler, when you need them?

    Last I heard, Kessler was getting his own reality tv show.

    I’m sure it’s only a matter of time before Zimmerman ends up on the reality tv circuit as well, wasn’t he supposed to be letting someone beat the shit out of him for charity or something?

  • http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

    “They can also sell the debt to one of those collection agencies who specialize in making peoples’ lives a living hell.”

    Cue Al Czervik:

    “Moose…Rocco..Help the sovereign citizen find his checkbook!”

  • Scott Hanley

    Before you start wishing the feds would give these guys the fight they’re asking for, remember there are a lot of BLM and USFS employees out West who are outnumbered and outgunned by hostile locals who talk about shooting feds, but probably would never do it. Do you want to push them into the extremist camp? Handling these jackanapes with kid gloves is exactly the right thing to do — not because they deserve it, but out of concern for innocent people who could be endangered if violence ensues.

  • raven

    Oh right. The Libertarian solution. Let the all powerful magical Invisible Hand of the Free Market settle it.

    1. Just put a bounty out on Cliven Bundy. Which BTW, the old west used to do and we still do sometimes today. And put up wanted posters everywhere including all the post offices which they still do also.

    2. If you make the bounty high enough, I suspect those militia guys with their expensive assault rifles will be fighting each other to take him in.

    3. So how much should the bounty be? Bundy owes the feds $1 million. So maybe $1 million would be a good starting price. Better some money than a few dead BLM employees. And just keep raising it until he gets dragged in.

    4. I’m not really being serious here. Although this is the Loonytarian solution. While it might work, it might also get a few people killed trying.

  • raven

    BTW, there are 16,000 or 23,000 federal BLM grazing permit holders, depending on which source you read.

    There is one who is on the edge of a shootout with the feds while claiming 500,000 acres he doesn’t own. Cliven Bundy.

    The vast majority of ranchers aren’t greedy homicidal maniac Welfare Queens. They obey the laws and pay their bills just like the rest of us.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    Scott Hanley “Handling these jackanapes with kid gloves is exactly the right thing to do — not because they deserve it, but out of concern for innocent people who could be endangered if violence ensues.”

    Didn`t they already handle him, repeatedly, with kid gloves, leading to him continuing to ignore them? When can the kid gloves come off? And is takeing the kids glove off really any worse? I mean, what are kid hands going to do? And shouldn`t kid hands have a more appropriate covering, like kid mittens, instead? And, furthermore…

  • http://omegamom.com OmegaMom
  • http://omegamom.com OmegaMom

    Ack. How do I edit that comment?? There’s supposed to be an HTML link to the timeline, then the rest. Damned iPhones.

  • Scott Hanley

    Modusoperandi, you’re thinking like George Bush: “There are a few bad guys out there and if we deal with them, the problem will go away.” Just as killing terrorists seems to breed more terrorists, using violence against Bundy runs the risk of inflaming a lot of sympathizers who also own guns. Do you think they’re all going to be intimidated into meekly laying down those guns? Or does it seem likely that a few of them will become ever more convinced that “The gummint’s out to destroy us” and decide to, say, shoot some poor Forest Service employee up in the mountains where no one will ever know who did it?

    It’s about more than Bundy. Those folks surrounding him are only the most mobilized of the crazies — there’s a whole more of them on a whole scale of normal whining to utterly deranged. Shooting down a bunch of rural Westerners is a great way to move even more people into that latter category. And there are actions they can take that are a lot harder to deal with than squatting on land they don’t own.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    Scott Hanley, so I can stop paying lease fees and ignore duly appointed officials telling me to stop, and continue to quarry Mount Rushmore if I (and my friends) will potentially react with violence when law enforcement inevitably turns to a more active approach to make me stop?

  • raven

    Ack. How do I edit that comment?? There’s supposed to be an HTML link to the timeline, then the rest. Damned iPhones.

    You don’t. No edit function. Happens to all of us. Just repeat your comment or add a supplementary one.

    BTW, your entire comment is a link because it is in blue. To the Washington Post.

    Wshington Post article::

    April 1995: The fight between the Bureau of Land Management and the ranchers who want to use the federal land without fees or oversight is growing more tense, according to a story published in USA Today.

    Thursday evening, a small bomb went off in the U.S. Forest Service office in Carson City, Nev.

    Though no one has taken responsibility — and no one was injured — it has sent chills through government agencies involved in Western land management.

    “If it was sent as a message,” says Forest Service spokeswoman Erin O’Connor, “we got it.”

    Looks like terrorism to me.

  • raven

    FWIW, one of the groups behind the militias in terms of propaganda and support are, according to some sources I’ve read..the Koch brothers and their front, Americans for Prosperity.

    If they can take over the federal government, they can take over all the federal lands. This is worth billions or more likely trillions of dollars.

    This is neo-feudalism. At some point the 0.10% stop being ultra-rich and start being new age feudal lords. Which makes the vast majority of US citizens into…serfs. At best.

  • wildbill

    I’m just wondering, was the land this clown actually lives on originally obtained from native americans through a “treaty” or simply by stealing if from them? If so, then they should show up on his land and take it back. He shouldn’t have any problem with that since this would be another example of the bad, evil government taking land from the people.

  • kyoseki

    I would LOVE to know what imbecile at the BLM decided that they need to set up “First Amendment Areas” and their rationale for doing so.

    That was a spectacularly boneheaded move.

  • Scott Hanley

    Modusoperandi, perhaps my use of “kid gloves” was misleading. I don’t mean “ignore them,” nor “let them get away with it.” I mean “show the greatest possible patience in resolving the confrontation without having to shoot anyone and for God’s sake don’t be the ones to fire first.” If we have any law enforcement officers on the scene who understand the difference between being the grown up and being the “big boy,” that would be great.

  • D. C. Sessions

    I would LOVE to know what imbecile at the BLM decided that they need to set up “First Amendment Areas” and their rationale for doing so.

    It was a typo. Should have been “Second Amendment Areas.” The people on-site got it right.

  • kyoseki

    It was a typo. Should have been “Second Amendment Areas.” The people on-site got it right.

    Same argument applies, even in California, BLM land is open carry, putting up designated zones where you can exercise constitutional rights plays right into the fear mongering bullshit these idiots constantly espouse.

  • Michael Heath

    I’m with Scott Hanley. There are ways to shut this yahoo down without resorting to violence. Violence that would create blowback and increase the threat and harm to innocents.

  • http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

    The BLM should just introduce wolves to the lease area–about 5,000 or so–and institute a mandatory jail term for poaching.

    Michael Heath and Scott Hanley:

    I agree with your take on the “standoff”. Otoh, these asshats WILL, sooner or later, start a shooting war and when they do, I want to see them taken down with as much ferocity and fire power as we would use against an external threat and then put the survivors in GITMO!

    I’m just kidding. About the GITMO part. I don’t want there to be any survivors.

  • Crudely Wrott

    My father was a cattleman. That is, a working cattleman also known as a cowboy.

    He grazed cattle on federal leases for nearly forrty years.

    Every year he payed the required fees. I never once heard him complain about it. What I did hear him say was how good the feed was in the high meadows and how fat and slick it made our cattle.

    My father was an honest business man and one hell of a hand.

    You, Mr. Bundy, are no cowboy.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    … using violence against Bundy runs the risk of inflaming a lot of sympathizers who also own guns.

    In case you haven’t noticed, that lot are ALREADY inflamed and emboldened by lack of firm government action. The best way to shot those wankers up is to take off the kid gloves and forcefully remind them that: a) EVERYONE has to obey the law, including white Christian reactionaries who wear cowboy hats as seen on TV; and b) the law won’t listen to their manipulative bullshit rhetoric, any more than it will listen to Islamist raving about a Caliphate or Communist propaganda speeches.

    Once law-enforcement gets a firm hand on the situation, without apologizing or mincing words, most people will give up and go back to their own lives, and stop listening to the hardcore inflamed extremists.