The Worst Thing Written About Isla Vista Shootings

I haven’t written much about the tragic shootings in Isla Vista, California by a deeply disturbed and misogynist young man. Many others have written more eloquently about it than I could. But I want to pass on the single worst thing I’ve read about it from a guy who describes himself as a “European guy blogging about incel, love-shyness, anti-feminism, modern culture, femisphere and life in general.” The term “incel” stands for involuntary celibacy. Try not to gag while you read this:

He was stupid enough never to come to an idea that his money could make him look for anything he wanted in many cities abroad. Instead he remained among horrible people, and American women are the most horrible people on Earth, and ended his life in a horrific way.

What happened is a proof that incel murders people…

What happened is punishment for evil and violence of feminists and liberals. Any of you supporting atrocities like women’s suffrage, immodest clothing, child support/alimony, no ban on adultery, ban on prostitution and a lack of female premarital chastity, all the things that drove this young man to be unable to find a girlfriend, are disgusting , horrible people and you created a culture where this is possible. Renounce these horrors now. It is a decent thing to do. It will make you healthy and sane again. It will make the world healthy and sane again…

So, what can you do? I started this blog by proposing a solution that involved government organized dating services and help for shy men. None of these included any coercion and all participation was voluntary. After over an year of relentless attacks and strawmanning, which mostly included insane accusations that my plan uses force, I realized what a poster on my blog going under the nickname Franklin has told me – in a democracy leaders are a reflection of the electorate and the electorate are manure. You can’t expect manure to understand the usefulness of things that are actually useful. It was completely unrealistic to expect any recognition of our problems from a government of societies where 90 percent of “people” are manure.

But there is a solution which could work.

If you are a male, became a coalpha. Abandon the evil culture with evil monsters in it. Read J.D. Unwin’s book Sex and Culture and Roger Devlin’s paper Sexual utopia in power to understand why decent men have no chance in this culture and why you can only lose if you’re not extremely stupid and wicked in a world of stupidity and wickedness. No culture ever survived feminism, because feminism break the back of society.

Men, if you are reading this post and want to find a decent culture, remember – there is hope. There is a way. You can become coalpha men living in co-operation with other decent men. These men will help you and others like you find wives in non-feminist cultures. Give up on women in feminist cultures. They are not fit to be girlfriends, wives or mothers. They mate with horrible men and their children are horrible scum. Men who are most successful in feminist cultures aren’t any evolutionary winners. Immoral and stupid men can never be that, since they will eventually destroy society. Would you call a man who impregnates a woman with feces instead of a baby successful in any way? No, most men successful with women today are utter scum…

Unless we do so all decent people in the West will be simply removed from the gene pool. This will be a tragedy much greater than any World wars or Holocaust – all traits that form civilizations will simply disappear.

I think I just facepalmed so hard I gave myself a concussion. Imagine how fucking twisted you would have to be to say things like this.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • http://howlandbolton.com richardelguru

    Surely that must be a Poe in very bad taste: a Poo Poe??

     

    Surely

     

    Please…

  • blf

    Unless we do so all decent people … will be simply removed from the gene pool.

    If this nutter is example of “decent people” then that might not actually be a bad idea?

    The redacted phrase in the above quote was “in the West”. And the above quote was followed by:

    … all traits that form civilizations will simply disappear.

    This seems to be just another racist nutters rant, with added misogyny and an extra heavy dose of stoooopidity. (Not “ignorance”, stoooopidty, albeit that opinion is based on mostly on an ability to form broadly coherent sentences — that is, presumably some education — more than anything else.)

  • Pierce R. Butler

    A mere co alpha? What a weakling! I shall use him for a stepping-stool as I mount my stallion!

  • colnago80

    Maybe this schmuck should consider relocating to Saudi Arabia. It sounds like his kind of place.

  • frankniddy

    Women’s suffrage is an atrocity? Maybe this guy has read a little too much Vox Day.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/TabbyLavalamp Tabby Lavalamp

    No misogyny to see here, folks! My ability to have control over my own life and to have a voice in my society is an “atrocity”, but there’s no misogyny here. Please move along!

    No culture ever survived feminism, because feminism break the back of society.

    I’d be interested in reading the history on this. There have been so much feminism through all of history that… Oh, wait a minute…

  • culuriel

    So, he wants to start a government dating site for “shy” men, who couldn’t get dates on their own, but claims it won’t be involuntary. Exactly how will any government get any women to date men, who can’t find dates now, to willingly date these guys? Besides that, there is the attitude that he is somehow entitled to a date, to the point where the government needs to provide him with one.

    I can tell you right now why he encourages men to avoid feminists. He, and men like him, like to feel entitled to women’s bodies and lives.

  • rabbitscribe

    I’ve never posted anything like this before. So I guess Kos picked this up and he’s getting a bunch of traffic. He appended the post in question with the suggestion that new readers look at an earlier entry to learn about him and his ideas. It was composed long before Isla Vista. I did. It is spookily similar to Rodgers’ manifesto, and its final paragraph includes,

    “I will end it by suicide or worse. Many people have called me dangerous. Their reasons were always incorrect but they sort of had a point. “

    I really think everybody should be very cautious when engaging this person.

  • plutosdad

    So .. the subjugation of “beta” males is not due to alpha males, nor is it because of non feminist women who will settle for an assertive male even if he is a jerk, rather than a passive aggressive “nice” but not actually nice person, no, it’s not all that behavior which has existed for millennia, it’s because of feminism.

    Does he think pretend “niceness” is some recent strategy guys have suddenly tried?

  • dingojack

    Ed – allow me:

    The Worst Thing Written About Isla Vista Shootings – so far.”

    FIFY

    Give the tin-foil hatters, the mouth breeding MRA’s and the bible-thumping misogynists time.

    They’ve always been a little slow.

    Dingo

  • http://www.thelosersleague.com theschwa

    He should at least encourage the use of clean coalpha technology! If he gets his way, all these new coalphas will add so much CO2 to the atmosphere!

  • lofgren

    Honestly I believe that involuntary celibacy can do significant harm. For example, it can make you deranged beyond possibility of recovery. Whoever wrote this is living proof. Physical intimacy is not as strong a psychological need for humans as social interaction is, but it definitely rates.

    It doesn’t help that, if you have not had sexual partners, your only source of information about sex and sexual intimacy would come from movies, books, and television. Those are almost invariably written for people who have had sexual experiences or, if not, haven’t had sexual experiences due to culturally acceptable reasons like age, maturity, waiting until marriage/college/love, etc.

    Honestly I find it virtually impossible to imagine how I would look on the world if I had a sexual history so far outside the mainstream as total involuntary celibacy. As someone who was lucky enough (at least in my opinion) to meet and fall in love with my True Love of almost 20 years (and only sexual partner) when I was still in high school, I already find a lot of pop culture totally incomprehensible. But while that might be unusual it’s not that weird, and (importantly) it’s not alienating both because my friends and family were happy for me and supportive and because, obviously, I had a loving partner who was going through the experience with me.

    To look out on the world as somebody who has been denied sex, not for lack of trying, for years and years seems like it would be a very isolating experience. By the time you hit your mid-20s almost everyone you know who wanted to will have had sex or at least prospects. You would almost certainly start to feel like nobody understands what you are going through, and that can lead to bitterness and anger. You can understand why the objects of such a person’s desire would take on magical, almost demonic power in that person’s mind.

    None of this should be taken to mean that I support any of this poor bastard’s ideas. I’m just saying that mixed in with my disgust is a healthy dose of pity, and gratitude that my own sexual experience has been fulfilling and satisfying.

  • rabbitscribe

    iow, yes, it is “the worst thing written about the Isla Vista shootings” because afaik none of the other misogynists are on the verge of another spree killing.

  • Synfandel

    The terrible shyness in his tone is heartbreaking.

  • http://www.thelosersleague.com theschwa

    Also, why a government dating site? Are the match.coms and plentyofish.coms actively policing their members for shyness and kicking them out?

  • plutosdad

    Actually I don’t think involuntary celibacy is what is bad, celibacy itself, if it is has been from birth, is probably bad.

    I believed all the bs when I was a Christian, and saved myself for marriage, until I was over 30. From about then on I guess you could call it “involuntary” for awhile.

    But the lack of perspective and understanding of other humans due to my avoiding much of human interaction warped my thinking and beliefs in many areas. Once i gave all that up, I was free to actually be a good person, have empathy for others, etc. In fact, it was the opposite of all the purity bs they try to sell.

    Anyway, if this guy wants to read a book I think “No More Mr Nice Guy” would be better, i have not read it in over a decade, and truly his conferences and forums are full of angry anti-feminists. But the one thing that book really hammered home is “you are NOT nice, you are passive aggressive and give gifts and love with strings attached, and are dishonest with women” and I think that is something alot of “nice guys” really need to hear.. Especially the ones that complain women want jerks. That is not true, but many will settle for a jerk rather than a liar.

  • busterggi

    That must be the longest post Modus has ever written!

  • lofgren

    Actually I don’t think involuntary celibacy is what is bad, celibacy itself, if it is has been from birth, is probably bad.

    I’m a bit uncomfortable with the phrase “involuntary celibacy” myself, but I think we need to be careful to exclude people who have low sexual drive or do not value sex highly due to natural variation in the species, vs. people who really want to get laid but can’t manage it for whatever reason. The former aren’t at risk. The latter probably are.

  • dugglebogey

    Here’s what I see this guy saying:

    “I have a mental problem, perhaps even a mental illness, which is irrational shyness towards women. Therefore society as a whole should change it’s behavior to accommodate my problem/illness. Women should be forced by the government to behave in a way that lessens my inabilities to deal with them. The rights and freedoms of those women is not material to my wishes and desires.”

    I guess that is what he would call “strawmanning” but it looks right on the money to me.

  • iknklast

    Also, why a government dating site? Are the match.coms and plentyofish.coms actively policing their members for shyness and kicking them out

    I met my husband through a dating service. We were both painfully shy; the dating service said he is the only person they ever had that got a 0 on the extrovert scale (I think I got a 2, out of 50 possible). In spite of his shyness, he had no trouble finding women who wanted to go out with him. He’s neither stupid nor immoral, but I am willing to believe he qualifies as both in that man’s opinion, since he is married to a woman who not only votes, but has a Ph.D. in the hard sciences and makes a very decent salary. We are extraordinarily happy, because we are equal, not dominant male/submissive female. We are both able to be who we want to be, and we just happen to want to do that together.

  • caseloweraz

    Culuriel: Exactly how will any government get any women to date men, who can’t find dates now, to willingly date these guys?

    By reminding them that the government knows they have relatives now living in Modernia?

  • plutosdad

    sorry, yes, I had a sex drive, but chose celibacy for awhile. That is different that someone with lower sex drive.

    Also my reasons for choosing celibacy probably were rooted in other views that were damaging – original sin, judging others, sexual drive is bad, etc.

  • caseloweraz

    Rabbitscribe: I really think everybody should be very cautious when engaging this person.

    I had the same thought on reading his words. They suggest he is another Elliot Rodgers waiting to happen.

  • Pen

    Involuntary celibacy that’s the result of an outright determination to dehumanise potential partners and treat them as personal ego-boosters is a very special kind of ‘involuntary’. I don’t think many people are wondering why women turn them down.

  • dugglebogey

    One of the fascinating things about the people that seem to share this unfortunate form of misogyny is that they immediately dismiss Rodgers as “atypical” of their symptoms because he was “rich and good looking” and if they had the advantages he had they would not be in the predicament which they find themselves.

    But don’t they feel that way about ALL other men, especially those who can talk to, date and have relationships with women? The only commonality between these people with this problem is their lack of ability to deal with members of the opposite sex.

    It’s incredibly ironic that they wish they had what Rodgers had, when his problems/illness led to him killing and wounding people, including himself.

  • karmacat

    This involuntary celibacy idea is bullshit. There are women out there who just want sex if that is what someone is looking for. If you want a relationship, then guess what, you have to work for it. If you have social anxiety, therapy can be very helpful. Going to therapy is basically an investment in yourself. Without a doubt social anxiety is painful. If a person has “involuntary celibacy” then that person needs to sit down and figure out what he or she can do differently. And if all you are doing is thinking about how you are not getting sex, you are going to be miserable. Sometimes the best solution is to go out and live your life and get involved in activities you enjoy.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/TabbyLavalamp Tabby Lavalamp

    I’ve been thinking about this, and in many ways the original post is on of the worst in how over the top the misogyny is, but that same over-the-topness makes it impossible for reasonable people to take seriously. That’s why the writings from “reasonable” people that deny the misogyny driving the murders and deny that misogyny is even a problem are far worse because they help stifle actual progress.

  • Kevin Kehres

    Well, I think we have a multi-million dollar business just staring us in the face.

    shypeopledating.com

    incelnomore.com

    And any other code words you care to mention…all pointing to the same pool of people, of course.

    Subscription of $79.95 a quarter ought to do it. Probably reach a million in the first 6 months. That’s a lot of cabbage.

    I’m too busy with other things — consider this idea a gift to the blogosphere.

  • http://marniemaclean.com MissMarnie

    I think it’s interesting that people can talk about “incel” men without ever acknowledging that there are women who feel physically and emotionally unfulfilled because they cannot find partners. I have met “nice guys” who spend time going on and on about how women (all of them) don’t recognize their great qualities and won’t give them a chance all while simultaneously talking about a women who flirted with them or talked to them who they consider so far beneath them that they don’t even register as “women” when these men are complaining about the entire gender.

    I’m not going to tell these men that they need to date/sleep with something they aren’t attracted to, I just find it galling that their concern is for men, what men want and their perceived right to have physical and emotional access to women to the exclusion of what that woman feels. The fact that these women are not interested in them probably shows that they are evolutionarily, pretty well adapted, if we want to respond to bogus evolutionary psychology with bogus evolutionary psychology. I have yet to figure out what any of these forlorn incels have to offer the other person because for them, it’s not a factor. They appear to think their existence is the prize and the chance to bear their children should be motivation enough to give up one’s own autonomy.

    What I hear, when I read this is that they wish women were like livestock, something that could be bartered or bought and put to use until such time that the owner feels they need a new healthier specimen. They should be carefully assessed for both breeding and working and the woman’s personal feelings about the situation aren’t just secondary, they are laughable, like asking how a mule feels about pulling a plow.

  • dugglebogey

    Indeed people should be very careful in choosing whether or not to engage this person. His tendency to dehumanize his targets as “scum” and “manure” is a HUGE red flag.

  • eric

    We were both painfully shy; the dating service said he is the only person they ever had that got a 0 on the extrovert scale (I think I got a 2, out of 50 possible). In spite of his shyness, he had no trouble finding women who wanted to go out with him.

    I was thinking something similar; the solution to how shy singles can meet other singles in a non-confrontational or non-threatening manner is already here. It’s called “the internet.”

  • dingojack

    dugglebogey – believe it’s called ‘de-personalisation’, technically..

    I think the problem is a pervasive culture of telling males that ‘they have urges’ and that females need to take steps to alleviate this problem*. Then telling females they are free to be as sexual as they like. This causes huge levels of cognitive dissonance amongst males that are indoctrinated that way. When coupled with a powerful sense of entitlement bred from years of misogynistic media twaddle and having others accommodate their little ‘urges’….

    A better solution is to teach children about interpersonal relations early on, from the perspective of tolerance, empathy, respect and (every RRWNJ’s favourite) personal responsibility.

    Every day we had to recite a meaningless mantra that ended with the only thing I remember: I am responsible for my own actions. A valuable lesson, IMHO.

    Dingo

    ——–

    * NB: His problem, but she has to provide the solution. No care, no responsibility.

  • blf

    (On a shy single person meeting another single (presumably shy) person.)@31 “!It’s called ‘the internet.”

    Maybe. I rather suspect it takes a considerable amount more nerve to go from e-conversations (with or without visuals) to actually meeting someone in person; As opposed to encountering something more-or-less by accident in the course of day-to-day living. (I pointedly exclude going to “singles bars” and similar locations / events, which are perfectly designed to intimidate all but the most extroverted.)

  • Akira MacKenzie

    …no ban on adultery, ban on prostitution and a lack of female premarital chastity…

    Wait a minute, you want to ban adultery and want women to abstain from sex until marriage, but you want to legalize prostitution. So, who are going to be the “legal” prostitutes in your man-topia going to be? Let me guess the “soiled doves” who didn’t save themselves, shunned by “polite” society and treated as something less than human?

    The Victorian Era called, they want their chauvinism and hypocrisy back.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    The Victorian Era called, they want their chauvinism and hypocrisy back.

    Tell them they can take some from the Taliban — they have a surplus of it.

  • Jeremy Shaffer

    I have met “nice guys” who spend time going on and on about how women (all of them) don’t recognize their great qualities and won’t give them a chance all while simultaneously talking about a women who flirted with them or talked to them who they consider so far beneath them that they don’t even register as “women” when these men are complaining about the entire gender.

    A revelation similar to this is what largely knocked me out of the “Nice Guy” phase I went through during my late teens/ early twenties. Fortunately I was not so far gone at that point that I dismissed the woman that called me out on such bullshit simply because it came from a woman.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Wait a minute, you want to ban adultery and want women to abstain from sex until marriage, but you want to legalize prostitution.

    Anyone remember “Dr.” Laura? She pushed a very similar double standard, on the grounds that women have to remain celibate until their wedding night, but someone had to know what they were doing when that night comes.

  • caseloweraz

    Akira Mackenzie: Wait a minute, you want to ban adultery and want women to abstain from sex until marriage, but you want to legalize prostitution…

    Actually I think he just left out the second “no” in that sentence. Careless editing.

  • neonsequitur

    It appears to me the word “shy” is in the process of getting hijacked in the same way as the word “nice” when referring to men. Being a nice guy (lower case) used to be considered a good thing, but now when someone refers to a Nice Guy (note the caps) they’re talking about an entitled, passive-aggressive scumbag in a cheap fedora.

    And now I’m seeing shy being used to refer to men who are quite simply misogynistic and repulsive. Is there some new definition of shy coming into play here, or am I reading more into this discussion than I should?

  • matty1

    OK I’m going to have to be careful how I put this. I am a man who would like a serious relationship and has never had one, in the past this has led me to clinical depression and I have recovered largely by focussing on what my life has rather than what it lacks.

    I know that the reasons for my ‘involuntary celibacy’ (horrible phrase) from circumstances to problems with my personality, I have never blamed women either as individuals or collectively, I do not think any person owes me anything and I am utterly disgusted by what this person has written. *But* I do want to push back against the idea that finding a partner is easy and the only possible reasons for being single are that a person wants to or that they are a horrible person who sees others as property. Personality disorders like extreme shyness are real and some of us are at least self aware enough to see them for what they are.

  • http://festeringscabofrealityblogspot.com fifthdentist

    The Handmaid’s Tale isn’t supposed to be used as an instruction manual.

  • http://marniemaclean.com MissMarnie

    I don’t think anyone is saying that finding a partner (for sex or love or both) is easy for everyone. I have said that many men who feel lonely don’t seem to notice that women can be lonely and rejected too. I have noticed that many of these men seek out women who are conventionally very beautiful even if they might not fall into that category themselves, and ignore women who are less conventionally beautiful. They feel as though not being interested in less attractive women is fine, but not being loved by more beautiful women is a slight.

    And if the extent of your interactions with women is to either try PUA tactics or skulk around seething with anger, it’s unlikely you’ll have much success finding someone. Both of those behaviors would send off huge red flags for me and even if I found the person attractive or interesting, I wouldn’t feel comfortable being alone with them. I suspect many women feel the same.

  • dingojack

    Matty – The problem is, as I see it, that you’re comparing apples with rotten Duran.

    Having an anxiety disorder is a treatable problem; being a over-entitled MRA obsessed with 2nd Amendment solutions and a insistence on owning your own personal fuck-toy is something else again.

    Dingo

  • eric

    @40 and @42 – agree, it’s not easy and nobody is saying it is. Clubs, social activities, and other mechanisms that help people (of all stripes) meet people are a good thing. Maybe the guy who wrote the OP IS crippingly shy…but I’m guessing his sense of entitlement has a lot more to do with his failure than his shyness. To put it another way, there are jerks, there are people with personality disorders, and there are people with personality disorders who are also jerks. Matty you may be #2, but this guy appears to be #1 or 3.

    ***

    As a complete aside, I find it hilarious that these folks are complaining about involuntary celibacy while at the same time invoking “alpha male” language and memes. Don’t they realize that in animal species that actually have alpha males, there is a whole hell of a lot of involuntary celibacy amongst the other males? The two things go hand in hand.

  • dingojack

    It ain’t necessarily so…. (see Baboon troops and Cuttlefish. Nature breeds for strength & cunning).

    :) Dingo

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @ the PUA asshole

    I started this blog by proposing a solution that involved government organized dating services and help for shy men.

    I don’t know about the government, but the phone company used to put one together. It was called the “Escorts” section of the Yellow Pages.

    Other people have mentioned lots of dating sites, even ones dedicated to “shy” people, but if dude is striking out in meatspace and in cyberspace, he needs to look at himself — I don’t think that “shy” is his problem, unless “shy” is a synonym for “asshole.”

    @MissMarnie

    And if the extent of your interactions with women is to either try PUA tactics or skulk around seething with anger, it’s unlikely you’ll have much success finding someone. Both of those behaviors would send off huge red flags for me and even if I found the person attractive or interesting, I wouldn’t feel comfortable being alone with them. I suspect many women feel the same.

    Exactly. I’m a guy and men like this make me uncomfortable. The PUA stuff is slimy and the anger is scary.

    A core problem here is that he (and his friends) all start from the unshakable assumption that they are perfect, so any problems they have must be someone else’s fault. Rejection is devastating to their self-images.

    When I was young, I had trouble interacting with women. I was “shy” by most definitions, and plenty frustrated as well. Funny thing, though. After some introspection, I started to make changes in myself and the dating outlook changed with it. One big change was starting to look at rejection objectively, as neither a failure in myself, nor the other person’s “fault.” It happens. A bit of introspection to see if I was sending a bad signal, but accepting that a lot of the time, there’s no mutual attraction.

    Like rain, rejection happens. You won’t melt and sitting at home ranting at the skies is futile. Get an umbrella and carry on.

    Another problem is that their goals are messed up. “Getting laid” is a lousy goal; in the long run, it’s unsatisfactory for most people. “Having adult interactions with people” is much better. Sex is something nice that can come from those interactions. It’s dessert, not the meal.

    @ Akira MacKenzie

    …no ban on adultery, ban on prostitution and a lack of female premarital chastity…

    Wait a minute, you want to ban adultery and want women to abstain from sex until marriage, but you want to legalize prostitution.

    Irrational boy is irrational. He desperately wants to blame someone or something else for his problems.

    On the chastity thing, that’s his anger that there are unmarried women having sex, but they aren’t having it with him and he wants to stop that. A case of “if I can’t have it, then nobody can have it.” Similar thing with adultery. He’d be fine with unchaste women as long as they are unchaste with him (and no other males, since he is an “alpha” dontchaknow.)

    These guys make me very sad. I wish that I could help them. I’m afraid that all I can do is try to raise my sons to not be one.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1360322113 aaronbaker

    I have to say there’s stiff competition for “worst thing written” about the tragedy.

    Republican Moron (if that’s not redundant) Tod Kincannon and the even more moronic “Joe the Plumber” have both excreted two of the most gratuitously heartless messages I’ve ever seen..

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    The term “incel” stands for involuntary celibacy.

    That makes me vonun (Voluntary Uncelibacy). Yeah. I get some. Well, I got some. At least I think it was some. Hard to tell. It was pretty dark. So, in closing, whatever it was, I got it.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @ matty1

    I’m truly sorry that a lot of what you hear comes off as “it’s easy, just do these three things.” Ironically, that’s what the PUA industry markets; it’s about as useful as the many “get rich quick” scams out there.

    Dating and relationships aren’t easy. Sadly, luck plays a big factor. The dating advice should be qualified with “this may make things easier.” Solving an issue like debilitating shyness won’t make dating easy, but will make it easier. Being active in interest groups (as opposed to hanging out in bars) can make it easier to find someone, but not easy.

  • LightningRose

    Christ, what an asshole.

    It’s no wonder this fuckwit can’t get laid.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1360322113 aaronbaker
  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    busterggi “That must be the longest post Modus has ever written!”

    Don’t smear me with that. I, and I say this with the modesty that can only come from years of being awesome, would have been, on at least some level, funny. On some awesome level, probably.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1360322113 aaronbaker

    matty1:

    I sympathize, and I think your response to these experiences is refreshingly rational.

    Much more than my response was as an adolescent. I lacked normal relationships with both boys and girls, but unceasing rejection by members of the opposite sex was uniquely humiliating and embittering. As someone who knew me then once told me: “You tried too hard; you gave the girls the creeps.” Of course I tried too hard. I hadn’t the slightest idea what the right approach was; and so the more I was rebuffed, the more spasmodically desperate my efforts became, with predictable results.

    I did begin to resent, perhaps hate, girls and women. I could grasp, in an intellectual way, how unjust it was to resent an entire swathe of humanity over a set of individual mishaps. But I had to slowly and painfully learn how better to interact with others, female and male, before I could bring that bitterness and resentment to heel. I’m now married to an absolutely wonderful woman, with a wonderful daughter, and I very much regret my descent into misogyny.

    I don’t know whether this is the correct approach for others, I don’t know whether it has any relevance to your situation, and I don’t wish to patronize you by speaking as if it does; I’ll just say that for me it was a matter of getting “socialized” in a way I hadn’t been as an extremely isolated child (one parent dead, the other “away” most of the time). It was learning to say and do things that didn’t antagonize or worry the person I was interacting with. That I slowly got better at. (I’m less good at it in online discussions, but that’s a story for another day.)

  • Ben P

    As a complete aside, I find it hilarious that these folks are complaining about involuntary celibacy while at the same time invoking “alpha male” language and memes. Don’t they realize that in animal species that actually have alpha males, there is a whole hell of a lot of involuntary celibacy amongst the other males? The two things go hand in hand.

    Actually, you’ve stumbled upon the core of the “Pickup Artist” belief system.

    Society creates an expectation that men are supposed to approach women and initiate contact. This creates a bias, so to speak, in favor of men who are outgoing and confident. Men who are shy and introverted, and some to the point of social anxiety, often have significant difficulty approaching women and initating the conversations that might lead to a relationship, sexual or otherwise.

    At the same time, society is pervaded by messaging that defines your self worth in terms of your sexual attractiveness. For women that is predominately physical attractiveness. For men, it is in some part physical attractiveness, but is also significantly sexual prowess. That is, the ability of a man to convince a woman to enter into a sexual relationship with him. At the end of the story the hero always gets the girl.

    Men who reach their 20’s (or even teenagers to some extent) and demonstrate an inability to succeed at getting women usually end up with a serious lack of confidence in their ability to do so, and it affects their thought process. Some fall into depression and self doubt. They think they’re not good enough. Others fall into angry, they want to believe it’s not them, it’s the fault of the women, or the fault of the other guys. Anything but their fault. If that person also happens to be mentally ill, that’s when you get a lot of problems.

    Enter the PickUp Artist community. Many of the people in it are effectively snake oil salesmen, selling things to lonely guys with the promise that it will help them get women, because frankly, there’s a huge market of lonely guys who will pay money for some magical cure that will help them get women.

    There’s a wide variety of people in it, preaching things that range from fairly inoffensive to radically offensive.

    However, the ones that aren more oriented toward “life advice” have a common core. The core of these Pickup Artist books and seminars is that Alpha Males are successful with women, and they will teach you to be an alpha male.

    Mystery (The stage name of Eric Markovic) was one of the first to do it, he published a book called “The Mystery Method: how to seduce women.” Some of what he wrote is plainly offensive, but his advice to guys is not necessarily all bad. He talks about self confidence, even if you have to fake it, and getting over your fear of rejection, saying that if a woman says she isn’t interested just let it go and move on. He talks about conversation skills and conversation starters, for particularly shy guys this goes to the point of having a script or a set routine that you can follow, and he talks about forced socializing. Saying that if you want to be successful with women, you have to practice, suggesting guys go out to bars four or five nights a week with the goal simply being to initiate conversation with ten women.

    Of course then he goes much farther and the specific things he recomments are what most people find offensive. Things like the idea of backhanded compliments in the course of conversation and being physically forward with women.

  • lofgren

    I don’t think anyone is saying that finding a partner (for sex or love or both) is easy for everyone.

    I don’t think anybody is saying that explicitly but it does seem to be implicit to some of the criticisms of this guy and others who are part of his movement (and I use the term loosely and euphemistically). Most of those criticisms are intended to be funny rather than thoughtful, clearly, but the joke is still at the expense of people like matty1.

    Relatedly, I don’t buy that this guy has trouble because he dehumanizes women and acts like an entitled asshole. I’ve known guys who were quite successful with the ladies who used that as their whole shtick. The old adage that women want jerks is true insofar as some people seem to want jerks. In fact I would not be at all surprised if that is a big part of this guy’s problem as well. Maybe he thinks all the women he’s attracted to are bitches because he’s only attracted to bitches.

    As for his use of the word “shy,” I sure as hell would not take his word for it that he is “shy” in the sense that most of us would use that term, precisely because he is clearly so prone to blaming others for his problems. That’s not generally considered a hallmark of shyness. My theory is that his meaning here is rooted in the obsession of his particular subculture – Alpha-ness (or whatever the noun form is). Alphas are supposed to be rich, good looking, charismatic, dominant, and/or manipulative. Describing himself as shy is his way of heading off criticisms from PUAs, MRAs, MGtOWs, and RWA-Ds that his failure to get laid is entirely justified by his status as a pathetic Beta male. He is a Secret Alpha, you see. It’s just that stupid bitches can’t tell because he’s sooo shy.

  • Rentseeker

    I speculate that incel in question wants the government to automatically enroll all singles of a certain age into a dating service. That is they only way it makes sense to me, since there are already many free and good online dating services. Wait, maybe he wants Moonie marriages for all?

    If anything, the incel should be careful what he wishes for, since a charmer like himself would likely get paired with an involuntarily celibate woman whom he would consider unfuckable. Singapore created the Social Development Network, a state-run matchmaking service until 2006, which is widely regarded as being for losers. He does not think this through very well.

    Besides, how can any man be involuntarily celibate when prostitution exists?

  • Ben P

    Besides, how can any man be involuntarily celibate when prostitution exists?

    Besides the fact that prostitution is illegal in most areas? The exact same personality faults that usually lead to men considering themselves “involuntarily celibate” lead to those same men being unable or unwilling to seek out a prostitute.

    By and large a lot of these guys are compulsively shy to the point of social anxiety, and lack any form of self confidence. When you add in the fear they’d get arrested, that same fear and reticence keep them from taking that leap into responding to a personal ad or emailing someone on craigslist.

  • laurentweppe

    Exactly how will any government get any women to date men, who can’t find dates now, to willingly date these guys?

    Are you a single woman between 18 and 29? Do single men who believe that watching you with puppy eyes give them the right to have sex fills you with so much pity that you might consider giving them a mercy fuck? If so Uncle Sam Needs YOU!

    ***

    Other people have mentioned lots of dating sites, even ones dedicated to “shy” people, but if dude is striking out in meatspace and in cyberspace, he needs to look at himself — I don’t think that “shy” is his problem, unless “shy” is a synonym for “asshole.”

    Never underestimate the force of the Ultimate Teen Male Fantasy: being irresistible and attracting women just by walking around: if enough anxious teens can take the axe adds seriously enough to poison their high-schools’ air, imagine what happens when you mix this with a rich brat’s sense of entitlement and inflated ego.

    Elliot Rodger wasn’t simply mad because he was dateless: he was mad because no woman his age took the initiative to ask him out while he was making puppy eyes.

  • http://marniemaclean.com MissMarnie

    @lofgren #55

    In reference to my comment you said:

    I don’t think anybody is saying that explicitly but it does seem to be implicit to some of the criticisms of this guy and others who are part of his movement (and I use the term loosely and euphemistically). Most of those criticisms are intended to be funny rather than thoughtful, clearly, but the joke is still at the expense of people like matty1.

    I think the problem here might be conflating the person quoted in this post or the UCSB shooter with all people who struggle with finding dates or sexual partners. So yes, based on the shooter’s manifesto, where he outlines exactly how he has approached dating, (which seems to largely consist of seething while women actively live their lives without offering him sex,) and what he thinks of women in general, I would say that a big factor in his dating failures is his general creepiness and inability to see women as fully human. Not all (shy) men have this problem, but they people we are talking about do, among other issues, I’m sure.

  • Pierce R. Butler

    2nd worst thing written about Isla Vista shooting?

    Exene Cervenka Is Bat Sh!t: “Isla Vista Shooting a Hoax”

  • John Pieret

    Men, if you are reading this post and want to find a decent culture, remember – there is hope.

    I know it is very wrong of me, but I just can’t help but hope that the next deranged shooter, with the full support of the NRA, takes out this asshole.

  • dingojack

    aaronbaker (#47/51), Pierce R. Butler (#60) – See mine #10.

    :( Dingo

  • Ichthyic

    That makes me vonun

    Just so long as we don’t have to hear your poetry.

    oh, wait…

  • Ichthyic

    I would say that a big factor in his dating failures is his general creepiness and inability to see women as fully human.

    A big part of the problem is indeed viewing human relationships as being a negotiation for sex, instead of… a human relationship.

    I wonder where we all got so seeped in the idea relationships were all about sex…

  • Ichthyic

    Uncle Sam Needs YOU!

    A parade of “Madmen” Ad campaigns just floated through my head.

  • Ichthyic

    …a new twist on Rosie the Riveter….

  • http://onhandcomments.blogspot.com/ left0ver1under

    He was stupid enough never to come to an idea that his money could make him look for anything he wanted in many cities abroad.

    If the clown who wrote that is suggesting mail order brides and looking for marriage in foreign countries, he’s obviously never travelled overseas. I’ve lived in Asian countries for over a decade (since before 9/11) and I can tell you from first hand experience that women in any country can spot a loser just as easily as any woman in “western” countries. I have seen smart women dating losers and abusers, but often because the abusive foreigners aren’t as abusive as male citizens of their own country.

    I’ve seen a fair number of losers who come over because women at home want nothing to do with them. They think that by coming here with a clean slate it will somehow solve all their problems, when in fact the problem was always within themselves. They believe – and hope – that they can control these women because the woman’s right to move to his country is tied to his citizenship.

  • pocketnerd

    Thus Spake Zaraleft0ver1under, #67:

    If the clown who wrote that is suggesting mail order brides and looking for marriage in foreign countries, he’s obviously never travelled overseas.

    I doubt it. It’s a common talking point in MRA circles that marriage itself is a wicked feminist plot to control men. (“Child custody! Divorce rape! SPERMJACKING!!”) It’s more likely “thatincelblogger” was making a plausible-deniability reference to sex tourism, which MRA culture generally endorses. Why waste time and money on an evil Western Woman who might nonetheless decide not to sleep with you (GASP! How terribly unfair! She OWES me her body in exchange for dinner at Fat Mike’s House of Ribs!) when the power of global economic injustice means you can fly to a third-world nation, pay $5, and boink a 15-year-old? TOTALLY ALPHA BRO.

  • matty1

    how can any man be involuntarily celibate when prostitution exists?

    Possibly because some us are picky enough to find the idea of sex with someone who would rather not be having sex with us and is only consenting for the money unpleasant.

    Now I’m going to expand a bit on my earlier comment, I responded to rejection by blaming myself – which was not healthy for me. These guys respond by blaming others, which is equally unhealthy and damaging to those other people. I’ve never gone down that road but I can kind of see the thought processes as a dark mirror of my own.

    Where the truly despicable part comes in is how PUA culture takes advantage of these men. They are effectively mentally ill (which is not the same thing as insane by a legal standard) and are caught by a ‘movement’ that combines mocking their problems with encouraging them to go deeper into the worst aspects. There are parallels with Scientology encouraging schizophrenics not to seek treatment and in both cases a big chunk of blame for all the consequences belongs to the con artists behind the lies.

  • Kermit Sansoo

    Ichthyic: I wonder where we all got so seeped in the idea relationships were all about sex…

    .

    When you find yourself in a situation where you can’t breathe, it quickly becomes apparent that life is all about air.

  • Tib S.

    Hello. I am the author of the text in question. Please tell me, readers of his, does Mr Brayton support free speech? I know PZ doesn’t.

    I don’t want to write anything if all of my posts will get deleted.

  • pocketnerd

    Hi, Tib S., #71!

    Mr. Brayton does indeed support the right to free speech, as does PZ Myers.

    Please note, however: “Free speech” means the government does not censor what you say, nor punish you for saying it. It is not a promise that your opinions, no matter how ill-informed, must never be criticized; neither is it proof against being booted out of a privately-owned-and-operated forum (like this website) for being an inflamed asshole… or for no reason at all (though I’ve never seen either PZ or Ed B do that).

    If you want to contribute rationally and intelligently here, your first post is not a great start. Please feel free to remove your hairshirt; pre-emptive declarations of martyrdom don’t tend to win a lot of points in any community.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @ Ichthyic

    A big part of the problem is indeed viewing human relationships as being a negotiation for sex, instead of… a human relationship.

    I wonder where we all got so seeped in the idea relationships were all about sex…

    I was thinking about this point yesterday but didn’t have a chance to post on it. The indoctrination starts very early on. I don’t know about other regions, but in the US I think most of us have heard “Bobby and Maggie sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g…” about a couple of 3rd graders who are friends. If Robert and Margaret strike up a platonic friendship at work, you can bet that the rumor mill will be will begin churning out “affair.” Especially if either or both is married.

    Sex does underlie many of our interactions, but not every interaction.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @ Tib S.

    Ah yes, the preemptive “I’m going to be censored!” post. Pocketnerd gave a nice description, and this XKCD cartoon may help you with the concept of free speech and various fora.

    If you’d like to participate, great. I’d love to see how you defend some of the things you wrote. A number of people have raised specific issues and a great start would be addressing those issues. You could start with #6 which calls out your claim that “no culture ever survived feminism.” Please cite one or two cultures that failed due to feminism.

    Or, the several that wonder why you propose a government dating site when there are lots of commercial ones out there. What would be different about the government one? Why would women connect with men there, but not connect on the commercial ones?

    Your claims that “women’s suffrage, immodest clothing, child support/alimony, no ban on adultery, ban on prostitution and a lack of female premarital chastity” are atrocities and drove Rodger into his crime need a lot of evidence.

    Be aware that this is an evidence-based group. If you come here and just make bald assertions like these, with no support, you’re going to get laughed out of town. That’s not censorship, that’s the consequence of not supporting your arguments.

  • http://marniemaclean.com MissMarnie

    @Tib S. #71

    I think it’s pretty interesting that you are against women having the same rights and freedoms as men but you feel your rights are infringed upon when someone publicly disagrees with you or doesn’t give you an open platform to say whatever you want on their own private blog. I would say that the right to not get raped or killed is greater than the right to leave blog comments anywhere you like.

    Women want the freedom to choose what they do with their body. You want the freedom to say whatever you want, wherever you want without any consequences or argument. You are blaming women for men’s bad behavior.

    You don’t blame people who have nice things for their robberies or people who use cedar shingles on their home for tantalizing arsonists. You don’t claim people who drive deserve to be car jacked and should stay home if they don’t like it. Every day, you exist in a world where you have more than some people and less than others. You expect other people to respect your personal space, property and right to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness even if they feel horribly bitter about something you have that they don’t. You might want to ask yourself how you can justify the claim that women have to bear the responsibility for other people’s actions, and are undeserving of the basic rights you demand for yourself.

  • smhll

    I was thinking about this point yesterday but didn’t have a chance to post on it. The indoctrination starts very early on. I don’t know about other regions, but in the US I think most of us have heard “Bobby and Maggie sitting in a tree, k-i-s-s-i-n-g…” about a couple of 3rd graders who are friends.

    And romcoms and porn. And the idea that the “friendzone” is a worse place to be than the Twilight Zone.

    (Seriously, I have friends and I wish I saw them more often. People who scorn friendship truly piss me off. I want to say “Back away from the boner and calm down already.”)

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    Hmmmmm… Mr. Tib S. hasn’t returned. I certainly hope he’s off writing a post sharing his alpha-male wisdom, responding thoughtfully to the criticisms of his original posted here. I’d certainly hate to think that he got scared off by a bunch of women and beta-males.

  • leni

    I can’t get past wanting to have sex with people you hate. I don’t know, but I don’t want to have sex with people I consider subhuman and I just do not get why anyone would. The whole idea of it fills me with a nameless revulsion.

    And confusion, because if it’s a choice between involuntary celibacy or having sex with people I hate, I’m volunteering myself for involuntary celibacy. Voluntarily. No hand-wringing or murder or rape necessary. Maybe a vibrator, but that’s still a lot cheaper than a death penalty trial or three. And probably more pleasant that prison.

    I understand loneliness and rejection. I understand misanthropy. But if I make a mental list of good looking dbags who wouldn’t have sex with me, I get nothing. Well, I get a list I suppose. Probably a really long one. They are just people I wouldn’t like and who wouldn’t like me. It happens to the best of us.