Carson and Dobson on Pro-Gay Pastors

Right wing star du jour Ben Carson went on James Dobson’s radio show and they had a conversation about pastors who aren’t sufficiently anti-gay for them. Carson says they’re “really going pretty deep into the finger-in-your-eye to God.”

Carson: I find it difficult sometimes to understand why ministers are willing to abandon the scripture to go along and get along. I just find that very puzzling.

Dobson: I do too, especially on the issue of gay marriage. There are many, many formerly conservative big-time ministers — I mean those who have big churches and great influence — who have abandoned that.

Carson: They’ve been beaten into submission.

Dobson: If they’re right to do this today, were they wrong yesterday?

Carson: The bigger issue is, of course, if you can say the Bible is wrong on that, then, you know, why isn’t it wrong on everything, or anything that you don’t want it to say?

Dobson: I have been on a crusade to say to many ministers, and I’ll say it again now, that if men can marry and if the things that are said about same-sex relationships and marriage and the Bible are misunderstandings, what do you do with the rest of LGBT? What do you do with bisexuality? If one of those is right and proper and holy, what about those who have sex with males and females at the same time? That’s called orgies, that’s what it used to be called, or just sleeping around with everybody and it doesn’t matter. How can a Christian minister who reads the Bible condone that?

Carson: Well, you know, my emphasis is that marriage is an institution established by God himself. And when you look in the New Testament, the marriage relationship is used to help us understand His relationship with His people. So when you start distorting that, you’re really going pretty deep into the finger-in-your-eye to God. That’s why I have a hard time understanding why ministers are willing to do that.

What I find amusing about that is how they pretend that Christianity hasn’t done this before, completely reinterpreted what was viewed as undeniable truth for centuries prior to that. They did it with slavery, with religious freedom, with women’s rights (though there are still holdouts for the old positions on all of those things). And a large portion of them will do it again with the gay thing. And then they’ll treat that as the unalterable status quo until the next shift comes along.

It’s kind of Orwellian, really. Just as we have always been at war with Eastasia, they’ve always been on the side of whatever shift they’ve recently made.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • emc2

    Dobson: If they’re right to do this today, were they wrong yesterday?

    Yes.

  • Kevin Kehres

    And those ministers who do support gay marriage can’t understand why you’re being a bigoted asshole, Ben.

    Matthew 7:1-3.

    John 13:34-35.

    And a bunch of others.

  • http://zenoferox.blogspot.com/ Zeno

    James Dobson is still around? Ever since he was shown the door by Focus on the Family, Dobson has been fading into insignificance. I hadn’t known he was still on the air.

  • Chiroptera

    They’ve been beaten into submission.

    If by “beaten” they mean they are realizing that people are going to quit attending and donating to their churches. Also, perhaps even coming to the realization that they’ve been assholes and they want to be better than that.

  • Chris J

    Not only has religion always been on the side of the latest shift, but they were the ones that engineered the whole thing, proving that religion is more moral than non-religion.

  • colnago80

    One has to wonder whether Carson really believes this crap or is he just a grifter like Ted Cruz who will a anything to appeal to the teabaggers.

  • http://twitter.com/#!/TabbyLavalamp Tabby Lavalamp

    Of course that’s what they think of bisexuals. Even our “allies” often get it wrong.

  • teawithbertrand

    “The bigger issue is, of course, if you can say the Bible is wrong on that, then, you know, why isn’t it wrong on everything, or anything that you don’t want it to say?”

    I have some news for you, Dr. Carson. I think you’d better sit down.

  • bahrfeldt

    “Carson: The bigger issue is, of course, if you can say the Bible is wrong on that, then, you know, why isn’t it wrong on everything, or anything that you don’t want it to say?”

    Like not obeying Biblical dietary laws, seventh day sabbath observance or mixed fabric restrictions? Or bearing false witness and using the name of Yaweh in vain. Or ignoring Jesus’ statements in the Bible that the poor are blessed and we are all one in the eyes of the Lord, including women and furriners, while supporting the teatard cries of “Not my kids! Not my problem!”. Does he believe that the only parts of the Bible that count are prohibitions of male on male sex? Frankly, he seems to believe in his scripture as much as he does in the divinity of Julia Maesa.

  • cptdoom

    I find it difficult sometimes to understand why ministers are willing to abandon the scripture to go along and get along.

    Which means he can’t understand the wisdom Founding Fathers, who abandoned the doctrine of a state-controlled, and therefore “correct” church in order to allow heresy and blasphemy to run rampant through the land. If you can’t accept and tolerate ministers with a different interpretation of your religious books than you happen to have, you cannot be an American. Sorry.

  • Chiroptera

    I find it difficult sometimes to understand why ministers are willing to abandon the scripture to go along and get along.

    Because often it is clear that scripture is incontrovertibly wrong.

    Or, if I want to be kind, often the common, traditional interpretation of a particular passage is incontrovertibly wrong.

    In any case, it is obviously wrong to deny gay people their equal rights under the law. Some ministers are able to deal with it.

  • Phillip IV

    And when you look in the New Testament, the marriage relationship is used to help us understand His relationship with His people. So when you start distorting that, you’re really going pretty deep into the finger-in-your-eye to God.

    Oh, brilliant. So you can’t ever change anything that has been used as an analogy in the Bible, because that would make the analogy not work anymore. Therefore it’s utterly illegal to create a needle large enough for a camel to fit through its eye.

    So, basically, he opposes gay marriage because it doesn’t easily fit the pattern of a strict, “natural” hierarchy, which happens to be the way he prefers to imagine the relationship between deity and followers.

  • John Pieret

    I find it difficult sometimes to understand why ministers are willing to abandon the scripture to go along and get along.

    Fortunately you, Mr. Dobson, have not been been beaten into submission and are still speaking out for the stoning to death adulterers and homosexuals (males only) and disobedient children and those who take the Lord’s name in vain! If you can say the Bible is wrong on whether to do those things, why isn’t it wrong on everything, or anything that you don’t want it to say?

    It’s a shame that America has lost its Christian roots and no longer allows you to follow the Bible in those those things!

  • Nick Gotts

    Or ignoring Jesus’ statements in the Bible that the poor are blessed – bahrfeldt

    Oh, they don’t ignore those! They just want to make sure the poor stay poor, so they will stay blessed, while altruistically becoming rich, and thus unblessed, themselves.

  • caseloweraz

    Yes, they’ve been “beaten into submission” (by mortals) to such an extent that they now are willing to give “the finger-in-your-eye to God.”

    What’s wrong with this picture?

  • marcus

    ” They did it with slavery, with religious freedom, with women’s rights …”

    As has been noted before, they’ve also done it with marriage, which used to be a business relationship between the family’s involved. Marrying for love (against the wishes of the family) was considered a sin, and still is in some religions.

  • http://winter60.blogspot.com Lausten North

    “Carson: The bigger issue is, of course, if you can say the Bible is wrong on that, then, you know, why isn’t it wrong on everything, or anything that you don’t want it to say?”

    How does someone say those words, and not rethink their belief? Especially someone who’s job it is to know the history of Christianity, which includes several centuries when “beaten into submission” meant something very different than what he’s saying here. Does he have someone who first reads books for him and if they challenge his worldview then they throw them away? When I was a believer I sort of accidentally picked up “Jesus for the Non-religious”, by the end of it I was pretty much atheist.

  • mistertwo

    Christianity is a meme. It must (and will) evolve to survive. Ultimately, it may not survive, or perhaps simply not continue to thrive, but the denominations (species?) that don’t accept same-sex marriage, the ones that don’t accept evolution, and a number of other things, will not continue to produce new members.

    A hundred years from now, conservative Christianity is likely to be as fringe as one-cup churches are today. (Ever been to a church where they all drink from the same communion cup? A few still exist.) I suspect that if my granddaughter is a Christian, her children or grandchildren will never hear about these issues. Someone will find proof-texts that condone same-sex marriage, and they’ll act like nobody should have ever thought otherwise. If the Southern Baptist church or Churches of Christ are still thriving then, only the very elderly will be thinking to themselves that dinosaurs lived at the same time as humans, and they will rarely mention it. Evolve or cease to exist!

  • Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @Chiroptera:

    They’ve been beaten into submission.

    If by “beaten” they mean they are realizing that people are going to quit attending and donating to their churches. Also, perhaps even coming to the realization that they’ve been assholes and they want to be better than that.

    in one of the more politically consequential misreadings of the bible by Christians, right wing theocrats confronted before the civil war with a particular bible verse discovered that if a slave lived for 2 days, and eventually walked a couple steps before eventually croaking, that the slave had been “beaten” and not “killed”.

    This has led conservatives Christians in the US to believe that, if they are currently alive and able to do, well, almost anything at all for themselves, then anything done by their opponents 2 days or more ago was a “beating” and was an act just short of murder.

    Sadly, this has led to the current crop of theocrats convinced that the fact that they are alive proves that their entire lives have been filled by their enemies with every possible injustice just short of murder. And where every single day of their lives up two days ago is filled with just-short-of-murder, when they are waiting breathlessly for the day after tomorrow to discover if your speech about them today will be judged assault or murder, is it any wonder that – at any moment! – their political enemies might just turn out to have murdered them?

    :sigh:

    If only this were a little bit hyperbolic or facetious.

  • busterggi

    “They did it with slavery, with religious freedom, with women’s rights (though there are still holdouts for the old positions on all of those things).”

    Hell, they’ve done it for marriage often enough too – which, btw, their founding father Paul was steadfast against.

  • jnorris

    I would think Mr Carson’s greater concern would be his not understanding why his god has not smote those pro-gay pastors. That is, if his god was really mad at them for poking fingers in his eye and all.

  • Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    @jnorris:

    That is, if his god was really mad at them for poking fingers in his eye and all.

    The problem is that with god’s omnipresence, everyone is always poking fingers in their god’s eye, so long as that person has any fingers at all.

    At this very moment, I, for one, have my foot so far up god’s ass you can see my toes through his pupils.

  • caseloweraz

    @jnorris:

    That is what I was getting at. If the god that Carson and like people believe in existed, he would have long since opened a gross of cans of whoop-ass on the world.

    The image that came to mind is something like this:

    http://www.cafepress.com/+last_great_act_of_defiance_lineart_wall_art_large_wall_decal,625614943

    (I do not have a stake in CafePress.)

  • eric

    Well, you know, my emphasis is that marriage is an institution established by God himself. And when you look in the New Testament, the marriage relationship is used to help us understand His relationship with His people.

    When you look at the NT, you see that Jesus told his followers that they shouldn’t be getting married or having sex at all. The NT says that marriage is preferrable to sleeping around, but neither is ideal – celibacy is the ideal. Matthew 9:12, 1 Corinthians 7:1 and 1 Corinthians 7:8-9 are all pretty clear on that.

  • voidhawk

    What do you do with bisexuality? If one of those is right and proper and holy, what about those who have sex with males and females at the same time? That’s called orgies

    I love how some people, not just those on the religious right, seem to think that bi people must be constantly involved in orgies because, hey, why not? After all, we fancy everyone equally, don’t we?