Michigan Man Arrested for Revenge Porn

A man in Bay City, Michigan has been arrested after posting naked pictures of his ex-girlfriend all over the internet and telling her he would keep doing that until she gave him back some property he thinks is his. He also allegedly told her he would keep doing it until she killed himself. This report makes it clear just how unhinged this guy is.

The afternoon of Thursday, July 31, a woman visited the Bay City police station and spoke with an officer regarding her 34-year-old ex, Chad A. Monroe, not leaving her alone. The woman said she had his phone number blocked, but he kept calling and sending her text messages and messages on Facebook, court records show.

The woman told police that Monroe had told her he would make her life a living hell until she killed herself. He also posted nude photos of her on Facebook and labeled her a whore, she said…

In response to this complaint, police called Monroe, who they say was belligerent to them on the phone. Monroe said it was the woman who had been calling him. He refused to come to the police station, saying he believed he’d be arrested, court records show.

Police told Monroe to stop contacting his ex, but he said there was nothing they could do to him without the PPO having been served, court records show.

“I know about the PPO, but it’s all bull(expletive) and you won’t find me to serve me,” Monroe told the police, according to court records. “I talked with my lawyer and he said I can put naked pictures of (her) on the Internet and I am going to keep doing it until she gives me my (expletive) back. There’s nothing you can do about it. I am staying up in Pinconning with my crazy aunt and she will shoot anyone who comes onto her property.”

Yeah, how’d that work out for ya? He was arrested last week and is being arraigned.

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What Are Your Thoughts?leave a comment
  • imrryr

    There’s nothing you can do about it. I am staying up in Pinconning with my crazy aunt and she will shoot anyone who comes onto her property.”

    Is this the redneck version of, “Good luck, I’m behind 7 proxies“?

  • John Pieret

    Okay! Be belligerent with cops, tell them that you know that there is an order of protection against you, even if you haven’t been served, and then threaten (even if indirectly) to shoot them if they try to serve you and, for the cherry on the top, tell them where you are. Yep, a true strategic genius!

  • Kevin Kehres

    Yet another example of why we need to teach critical thinking skills in our public schools.

  • cry4turtles

    I hope she learned to keep her clothes on when the cameras are rolling. Not blaming the victim, but sheesh!

  • Athywren

    I talked with my lawyer and he said I can put naked pictures of (her) on the Internet

    Really? Is it actually legal to post naked pictures of people without their consent, or did Lawyer McLawyerton just say “Yeah, whatever, I don’t care, do it”?

    Was he arrested for the revenge porn, or was it for the continued harassment and the expressed desire to drive her to suicide? Or both? Or neither? Uncertain minds want to know!

    What I want to know is why MRAs aren’t coming out against revenge porn? Do you have any idea how hard that stuff makes it to get pictures of your girlfriend? Will nobody think of the poor men here? Revenge porn is goddamned misandry!

  • drken

    “I talked with my lawyer and he said I can put naked pictures of (her) on the Internet and I am going to keep doing it until she gives me my (expletive) back. There’s nothing you can do about it…”

    Your lawyer said that? Get a better lawyer to sue your current one for malpractice.

  • David C Brayton

    @cry4turtles–Uh, yes, you are blaming the victim.

  • caseloweraz

    This is oddly worded:

    “I talked with my lawyer and he said I can put naked pictures of (her) on the Internet and I am going to keep doing it until she gives me my (expletive) back.”

    I bet she’d be willing to give him his (expletive) back. In fact I bet she’d be willing to throw in a few extra (expletive)s gratis.

  • Artor

    @ cry4turtles

    “I hope she learned to keep her clothes on when the cameras are rolling. Not blaming the victim, but sheesh!”

    Yeah, you are blaming the victim. That’s exactly what you’re doing.

  • Athywren

    I bet she’d be willing to give him his (expletive) back. In fact I bet she’d be willing to throw in a few extra (expletive)s gratis.

    I’m bringing (expletive) back

    Them other (expletive) don’t know how to (expletive)

    I think you’re (expletive), what’s behind your (expletive)?

    So (expletive) around and I’ll pick up the (expletive).

  • Ryan Jean

    As sad as it is to say, he was not arrested for posting revenge porn. Right now, revenge porn is legal in itself, which is part of what makes it so difficult to combat. The only reliable action against it is copyright (which only applies if the victim or someone who sides with the victim took the picture — if the poster took the picture they technically own the copyright, and often that is in fact the case).

    The official charges against him are “single counts of stalking, a one-year misdemeanor, and unlawful posting of a message on the Internet, a two-year felony.” It is that second one that keeps being mistaken as being a law against revenge porn itself, but the problem there is that the law in question requires the communication to be in the form of unsolicited contact with the victim, not just posting alone. It’s essentially a cyber extension to harassment, but the direct connection of the comment (which need not be pictures) is a critical part of the law.

  • http://howlandbolton.com richardelguru

    @ cry4turtles

    Maybe he should have kept his camera in his pants bag.

  • Abby Normal

    To take a normal, healthy expression of intimacy, trust and love and then turn it into a weapon of hate is utterly despicable. I don’t understand how people get by in life with no sense of honor or integrity.

  • qwints

    As Ryan says, the defendant is facing a stalking and a harassment charge, not a charge for posting nude pictures without consent. Here’s the relevant statute for the latter. Mich. Pen. Code 750.411s.

  • konrad_arflane

    I know about the PPO, but it’s all bull(expletive) and you won’t find me to serve me,” Monroe told the police(…) “I am staying up in Pinconning with my crazy aunt and she will shoot anyone who comes onto her property.”

    Not the sharpest bulb in the drawer, that one.

  • cry4turtles

    Perhaps I stand alone in thinking that allowing someone to take nude pics, especially in the age of connected devices, is unwise. So is it horrible what this man is doing, but could have she honestly thought this would never bite her in the ass? I do agree with the prosecution of the offender; however, this is a lesson learned the hard way, and one that easily could’ve been avoided. Personally, I would never have allowed the photos.

  • Azkyroth Drinked the Grammar Too :)

    I hope she learned to keep her clothes on when the cameras are rolling. Not blaming the victim, but sheesh!

    Yes you are, and fuck you, you misogynist piece of shit and also a lying piece of shit. Even assuming she knew the pictures were being taken in the first place, hidden cameras being a thing, and assuming she wasn’t bullied or threatened into taking them, people have every right to express their sexuality with consenting adults without fear of reprisal and victim blaming fucks like you are a huge part of the problem.

    Shitholes like her boyfriend think they can get away with what they do because shitholes like you will helpfully jump up and yell that it’s the victim’s fault.

  • cry4turtles

    Yes, I’m a 50 year-old female misogynist. Too funny! Anyway, a quote from Judge Milian on People’s Court could be pertinent here, “Say it, forget it. Write it, regret it.”. Allowing someone to take nude photographs of yourself, unless that’s your business, etc. is unwise. I’ll stand by that advice regardless of name calling.

  • cry4turtles

    And to add to that, this man was likely to stalk her regardless of the pics. Allowing, and yes I’m assuming she consented (if not, whole different crime) nude photos handed over a lot of power. I would never give anyone that much power over me. It’s a mistake.

  • eric

    could have she honestly thought this would never bite her in the ass?

    Yes, she could have. She probably also took those “for better or for worse” and “until death do us part” parts seriously too. I don’t think people who think their relationships will last can all be called rubes and idiots, cry. At least, not without being a gigantic cynic. Maybe its unwise to trust someone you love, but our choices seem to be unwisely do it, or callously and coldly not do it.

  • dingojack

    eric – “A man in Bay City, Michigan has been arrested after posting naked pictures of his ex-girlfriend all over the internet and telling her he would keep doing that until she gave him back some property he thinks is his. ”

    [emphasis mine]

    Dingo

  • Brony

    @cry4turtles

    Yes, I’m a 50 year-old female misogynist. Too funny!

    Actually it’s quite possible for someone to be both a woman and a misogynist. All you have to do is take actions consistent with misogyny. Actions like victim blaming.

    All your comment did was criticize the victim and put the pressure and work to stop the abuse on them. You could spare no words for the abuser. That matters.

    Allowing someone to take nude photographs of yourself, unless that’s your business, etc. is unwise. I’ll stand by that advice regardless of name calling.

    And you should not express thoughts consistent with atheist because that could get you beat up by religious folks. Pathetic.

    And to add to that, this man was likely to stalk her regardless of the pics.

    How exactly does this add to that?

    Allowing, and yes I’m assuming she consented (if not, whole different crime) nude photos handed over a lot of power. I would never give anyone that much power over me. It’s a mistake.

    Maybe you would not do something like that, but it’s quite reasonable to want a relationship where you can do such and creating social consequences for revenge porn is how that is done. Additionally you are apparently quite happy giving all the power to the abuser in this situations.

    Misogyny is not name calling here. It is descriptive of your behavior and beliefs.

  • screechymonkey

    cry4turtles @16:

    Perhaps I stand alone in thinking that allowing someone to take nude pics, especially in the age of connected devices, is unwise. So is it horrible what this man is doing, but could have she honestly thought this would never bite her in the ass?

    As Azkyroth, Eric, and Brony have all tried to tell you, people do all sorts of things in the course of intimate relationships that make us vulnerable. We confide our secrets. We admit our vulnerabilities. We risk sexually transmitted infections (and, depending on the genders involved, possibly pregnancy).

    Those are all things that could “bite us in the ass” if it turns out we trusted the “wrong” person. Hell, it doesn’t have to be a matter of the “wrong” person or bad behavior. Just having an intimate relationship by itself can feel like it’s “bitten us in the ass” if we later get dumped.

    It’s not that there isn’t a reasonable discussion to be had about whether sharing nude photos is a prudent risk to run or not. (Even if you trust your partner, there’s the risk of third party theft.) But when that’s your response to this person’s crappy behavior, it says something troubling about you.

  • http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com Gretchen

    Perhaps I stand alone in thinking that allowing someone to take nude pics, especially in the age of connected devices, is unwise.

    It’s a risk.

    Being in a relationship at all is a risk. Giving someone power over you in any way is a risk, but that’s what being in a relationship means. Trusting someone in a way you don’t trust anyone else. Trusting them not to royally fuck you over, and giving them ample opportunity to do so. That’s what people in relationships do, every day, around the world. Morons, amiright?

    What’s worse– having nude pictures of you shared on the internet, or being raped? I’d say being raped, but guess how many women put themselves at easy risk of that every single day, by sharing a bed with a man? Is that unwise? Is the proper response to rape by a partner to sniff and say “Should’ve known better”?

    Sharing nude pictures might be riskier because we live in an age of connected devices, but that’s also why people do it so often. More people share nude photos now than any other previous point in history– why? Is it because more people are stupid now then ever before? No…..because that’s how people in relationships trust each other now.

    If you’re 50, I’m not surprised that you’re not aware of this. But hey– this is a learning opportunity, right? So take it, and stop judging people for doing what people in relationships do. It’s all a risk. That’s why they do it. Trusting someone doesn’t mean you deserve it when someone violates that trust. Not when they do it by sharing photos, not when they do it by sexual assault, not when they do by other means. You’re able to understand that, right?

  • mithrandir

    Perhaps I stand alone in thinking that allowing someone to take nude pics, especially in the age of connected devices, is unwise.

    You are far from standing alone. You stand with the Muslim fundamentalists who feel that a woman who goes out in public without a burqa, with her hair or ankles uncovered, is inviting rape because they are “inflaming male passions”. You merely draw the line in a different place.

  • cry4turtles

    Ed’s article said “ex-girlfriend”. Perhaps I’m old-school, but in my day, “No nude photographs” was a part of parental dating advice, and those were the days of Polaroids! A marital relationship may be different, definitely more commitment. But considering divorce rates, I wouldn’t do it. But hey, you young folks let it all hang out!! Have at it!! Just don’t plan on running for office, or getting a divorce, or breaking up, or having a custody battle. The fact is- nude photographs can be used against you. Why risk it? That’s the old-timer in me.

    Not sure how to address the comparison to rape. I think it’s a different subject.

  • screechymonkey

    “The fact is- nude photographs can be used against you. Why risk it? That’s the old-timer in me. Not sure how to address the comparison to rape. I think it’s a different subject.”

    I’m sure it is. Because your prudishness doesn’t render you immune to rape, so you might still have a shred of empathy for rape victims. Well, thank FSM for that at least.

  • cry4turtles

    mithrandir, I don’t think this is a censorship issue. I have no problem with nude women or men. I’m thinking this is a generational difference. I’m certainly not misogynistic. What this man did was wrong, absolutely wrong. But I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts, if another boyfriend asks this girl for nude pics, he’ll be denied.

  • cry4turtles

    I thank all of you who will converse without bizarre comparisons. Prude, Fucking misogynist, muslim fundamentalist? If your daughter would ask (hypothetically), “Mom, dad, Joey wants to take naked pictures of me.” What would your advice be? Perhaps a link to this article? I know what I would say.

  • screechymonkey

    “But I’ll bet dollars to doughnuts, if another boyfriend asks this girl for nude pics, he’ll be denied.”

    Why stop there? Maybe she should just stop dating men altogether. Can’t take any chances, you know. At least, none that you wouldn’t approve of.

  • dingojack

    So if a person drives at 120 miles an hour down a winding, unsealed road whilst at a blood alcohol level of 0.35 and rolls the car into a bus stop full of schoolkids, killing 5 of them, with the result that they themselves become a paraplegic (because they weren’t wearing a seatbelt) saying that they bear responsibility is totally ‘blaming the victim’.

    You people aren’t Libertarians by any chance, ’cause you’ve sure got the whole ‘no care, no responsibility’ thing down.

    Dingo

  • cry4turtles

    Come on screechymonkey, you know that’s different. Being betrayed because you made a mistake and left yourself vulnerable is no reason to think everyone will betray you. But if nothing is learned from it, it’s destined to be repeated. I feel bad for this girl, but perhaps”revenge porn” is a term we all need to be familiar with.

  • cry4turtles

    Gretchen, thank for your response, and you”re absolutely right, I didn’t know that nude photo sharing is the norm these days. Perhaps because of that, some people have become desensitized to the risks, but it doesn’t mean the risk isn’t there. My original post simply said that I hope she learned what risks she opened herself up to so that she is more cognizant in the future. I really wasn’t judging. I made no judgemental comments, nor did I call her names, other than perhaps alluding to “foolish”. If I was her, I’d be feeling downright foolish, albeit hurt, about now

  • screechymonkey

    dingojack@31:

    So if a person drives at 120 miles an hour down a winding, unsealed road whilst at a blood alcohol level of 0.35 and rolls the car into a bus stop full of schoolkids, killing 5 of them, with the result that they themselves become a paraplegic (because they weren’t wearing a seatbelt) saying that they bear responsibility is totally ‘blaming the victim’.

    Speeding, drunk driving, and reckless driving are all criminal offenses and morally wrong.

    Please tell me what criminal offenses or moral wrongs this adult woman committed by sharing a nude photo with her then-boyfriend.

  • dingojack

    Let’s take an aircraft accident as an example —

    rarely are such accidents caused by a single factor. Some are caused by poor training, some by poor maintenance, some by poor communication, some by mechanical failure and yet others by pilot error. But almost always they are caused by a combination of factors.

    An aircraft accident is very rarely caused by one single factor alone.

    This in no way means that any one of these factors did not contribute to any deaths or injuries.

    Here the clearly reprehensible behaviour of the Mr Monroe* is a major factor, however that doesn’t erase the responsibility of the victim for engaging in risky behaviour.

    It’s harsh I’d admit, but I’m sure if she was posting here she herself would say: ‘if your partner wants to take nude photos of you, just say no‘.

    Dingo

    ——–

    * let’s be absolutely clear here, Mr Monroe is a scumbag of the vilest kind (IMHO). A long sentence (subject to a psychological investigation) is indicated.

  • Brony

    @ cry4turtles

    Ed’s article said “ex-girlfriend”. Perhaps I’m old-school, but in my day, “No nude photographs” was a part of parental dating advice, and those were the days of Polaroids! A marital relationship may be different, definitely more commitment. But considering divorce rates, I wouldn’t do it. But hey, you young folks let it all hang out!! Have at it!! Just don’t plan on running for office, or getting a divorce, or breaking up, or having a custody battle. The fact is- nude photographs can be used against you. Why risk it? That’s the old-timer in me.

    Not sure how to address the comparison to rape. I think it’s a different subject.

    The world changed. It happens. We also tend to talk about changing the world as a group so it’s good to discuss the things that we want to change, and those dangers you mentioned are the things we want to change. I still find it interesting that you want the victims to do all the changing and not the abusers. That is consistent with misogyny.

    Rape is related because it has to do with sex, social power, and abusers.

    I thank all of you who will converse without bizarre comparisons. Prude, Fucking misogynist, muslim fundamentalist? If your daughter would ask (hypothetically), “Mom, dad, Joey wants to take naked pictures of me.” What would your advice be? Perhaps a link to this article? I know what I would say.

    Comparisons are as useful as the characteristics that comprise them. You are doing yourself no favors by continuing here. The best answer is creating a world where people don’t have to worry about naked pictures being socially damaging.

    Really? Kids? We are talking adults and that looks like a retreat.

    Being betrayed because you made a mistake and left yourself vulnerable is no reason to think everyone will betray you. But if nothing is learned from it, it’s destined to be repeated. I feel bad for this girl, but perhaps”revenge porn” is a term we all need to be familiar with.

    That is quite prejudical, unless the mistake you are referring to is the naked pictures. If that is the case you are undermining your point about thinking others might not betray you because you already want to tell people not to do that ever because revenge porn. The thing we all think is the better social target.

    Perhaps because of that, some people have become desensitized to the risks, but it doesn’t mean the risk isn’t there. My original post simply said that I hope she learned what risks she opened herself up to so that she is more cognizant in the future. I really wasn’t judging. I made no judgemental comments, nor did I call her names, other than perhaps alluding to “foolish”. If I was her, I’d be feeling downright foolish, albeit hurt, about now

    Actually we are displaying sensitivity to the risks. We just have a different target in mind than the victim. We get your point. The problem is that it is a band-aid on a social shotgun wound. It feels good saying it, you get to look like you are helping, but it does nothing to reduce the problem of naked pictures being social weapons. You were judging everyone who wishes they could share naked pictures of themselves with people and still be treated like human beings.

    You are clearly not her, or many of us for that matter.

  • screechymonkey

    cry4turtles@32:

    Come on screechymonkey, you know that’s different.

    No, I really don’t “know” anything of the kind. Believe it or not, I’m not just pretending to disagree with you for shits and giggles.

    Being betrayed because you made a mistake and left yourself vulnerable is no reason to think everyone will betray you. But if nothing is learned from it, it’s destined to be repeated.

    What is the “mistake” here?

    You seem to think that sharing a nude photo with an intimate partner is a mistake, and that this is a pure objective fact that the rest of us are in denial about. But — since you deny having any prudish motivations — you’ve provided no argument for this other than: “well, look what happened.”

    Essentially, you’re saying:

    This woman did X.

    X led to bad consequence Y.

    Therefore, doing X is a mistake and she should not do X again.

    You keep insisting that this argument is entirely valid when X = “sharing nude photos with a boyfriend,” but that it’s absurd when X = “trusting another person” or “having a boyfriend.” But you’ve offered no basis for making such a distinction.

    More to the point, your argument is fallacious as a general matter. You can’t evaluate whether or not X is a good idea based on the outcome of one particular situation. Imagine X= “taking the medication your doctor prescribed”; the fact that one particular patient experienced negative side effect Y — even if Y is quite serious indeed — doesn’t mean that X is a mistake that should never be repeated by anyone.

    Now I can imagine that you’ll object to that example because your doctor’s medication is supposed to bring about good consequence Z which totally justifies the risk of side effect Y. And that’s where the problem lies. What I think is underlying your argument is the assumption that there is essentially zero benefit to sharing nude photos, in which case even a small risk of negative consequences just isn’t worth it.

    That may be true for you. And that wouldn’t make you a prude. I’m not particularly into sharing photos myself, and I’m not likely to do so any time soon. But I don’t assume that my preferences are universal or ought to be universal. Some people find it sexy and fun to share nude photos, and their lives and relationships would be diminished if they had to stop doing so because maybe this person they love and trust will turn out to be unworthy of that trust and betray them horribly. So they choose to run the risk of horrible betrayal, just as you agree that relationships generally are worth the general risk of pain and betrayal.

    Basically: you’re either making an illogical argument from bad consequences and refusing to apply it consistently, or you’re implicitly assuming that other people’s sexual practices and pleasures are or should be the same as yours (which is prudish).

  • Athywren

    @cry4turtles

    I see what you’re saying, but when your first thought is about what she should’ve done differently, that’s kind of a problem.

    We can always look at the behaviour of people whose pictures are posted to the internet, or are raped by someone they trusted, or are murdered by the people who are supposedly paid to protect them. It may even be true that changing their behaviour would have kept them safe, and maybe they should have known that allowing their boyfriend to take pictures would result in them being posted to the internet, or that walking in the street would result in being shot several times. But concentrating on what we can change in order to keep ourselves safe ignores the fact that we would be safe if there weren’t people who intended to hurt us, and that targeting those individuals is far more likely to reduce our risk of being hurt than surrendering ground to those who would hurt us.

    Take the example of rape, people around the world will tell us, with utter certainty, that rape would not be a problem if women were just a little more modest. Here in the west, women just need to be a little more modest. Over in east, women just need to be a little more modest. In Muslim theocracies, women just need to be a little more modest. That’s all it would take! A little more modesty and they’d be safe. Do you believe that?

    If we spend our time concentrating on what we can do to keep ourselves safe, then we will end up living grey lives, avoiding eye contact and never leaving our homes except to go to work or buy food, and even then cowering in fear for our lives. Slippery slope, right? Not really. Look at rape again. Western women, with their tank tops and short skirts need to be more modest. Women in Muslim theocracies, with their full coverage burkas also need to be more modest. If we put the responsibility to avoid abuse on those who are abused, then we are surrendering our rights to all freedoms, because all freedoms make us vulnerable to something, and there will always be someone who will blame you for making yourself vulnerable.

    If, on the other hand, we concentrate on making our world hostile to abusers, then perhaps we can make this kind of thing a rarity.

    Personally, I want to live in a world that puts the responsibility for abuse on abusers, not on the abused.

  • screechymonkey

    dingojack, I’m not sure if your 35 cross-posted with my 34, but I would appreciate an answer to my question.

    As to this:

    that doesn’t erase the responsibility of the victim for engaging in risky behaviour

    What do you mean by “responsibility”? What does it mean to be “responsible” for something like this? To whom is that responsibility owed?

    Do you mean “to bear the consequences of”? Because if that’s the case, as a factual matter nobody doubts that is what is happening here: she, and only she, is bearing that burden, except to the extent that the law will impose some consequences on the person who we both agree is the reprehensible one.

    Do you mean “moral responsibility” or moral accountability? Because if so, then to whom is she accountable, and for what? Again, what is the moral wrong she committed, and who did she wrong?

    You’re tossing around words that usually carry moral implications, but you’re denying that you intend any such implications. So I have to keep asking, what do you mean?

    What would it look like for this woman to “take responsibility” in the manner you think she should? For whom would that be a better outcome, and why?

  • dingojack

    As far as I know, not locking your front door is not criminal. But if someone walked in through your (unlocked) front door and stole your TV (say), your insurance company wouldn’t pay out because you have a level of culpability.

    Culpable doesn’t necessarily mean criminal.

    It’s a distinction that’s important in thinking about this disturbing event.

    Dingo

  • steffp

    From outside the US: I know that the victim’s honor is not overly protected in the US, but I recall some statutes about private libel that might be applicable here. In Europe, in many states the person depicted on a photo has a right to forbid publication (except for “persons of historic importance”).

    As for the factual side, when British GCHQ snooped on video chats, they found that between 3 and 11% of the harvested webcam pictures were of an explicitly sexual nature – details here – That’s quite a lot of people who don’t follow that grandmotherly advice.

    As usual, “Just say no!” doesn’t work.

  • screechymonkey

    dingojack@40,

    I think you’ve chosen a poor example, because generally speaking insurance policies do pay out even if the insured’s negligence may have been a causal factor. The details will depend on the situation, the policy language, and the law of the relevant jurisdiction.

    But to take your point more generally: yes, negligence does not equal criminality. But negligence is still a concept of duty. I owe a duty under tort law to other drivers and pedestrians to drive carefully, and so if I cause injury to them through my lack of care, I am held responsible. I have a legal — and, most would agree, a moral — duty to compensate them for the injuries I cause.

    I might owe a contractual duty to my property insurer to take certain precautions. (Or more precisely, the insurer’s contractual duty to me might be conditioned on certain terms.) Though I don’t really see a moral component to such a duty even if it exists — this is pure risk allocation among private parties.

    But in any event — to whom did this woman owe the duty not to share nude photos? Who is the innocent pedestrian who was injured by her supposed “culpability”? Who is the insurer who she is trying to impose a duty on?

    The answer is nobody. She’s bearing the harm herself, she’s not asking you or me or anyone else for anything.

    She hasn’t even asked for our empathy, though she has mine regardless. Are you so stingy with yours, even though it costs you nothing to give it?

  • Brony

    Interesting. Being focused on making the victim change their behavior instead of the predatory abuser supposed to be helpful to the victim. And we have empathy problems?

  • http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com Gretchen

    cry4turtles said:

    Perhaps because of that, some people have become desensitized to the risks, but it doesn’t mean the risk isn’t there. My original post simply said that I hope she learned what risks she opened herself up to so that she is more cognizant in the future. I really wasn’t judging. I made no judgemental comments, nor did I call her names, other than perhaps alluding to “foolish”. If I was her, I’d be feeling downright foolish, albeit hurt, about now.

    Well, that’s the thing I was trying (and, I guess, failing) to address– everybody who has trusted someone in a relationship, and had that trust broken, feels foolish in addition to hurt. That doesn’t mean they were foolish, especially when the trust was broken by means of a sociopathic act on the part of the partner. And let there be no mistake– that’s what this was.

    If it was always easy to tell when someone is a sociopath, people wouldn’t fall in love with sociopaths. But it happens, doesn’t it? With astonishing regularity, it happens. When those sociopaths turn around and betray that love and trust by doing something deliberately hateful and horrible, what is the point in tsking and saying “Should’ve known better”? Does it make sense how that sounds like victim-blaming?

    I think the sheer normalcy of sharing nude photos between couples makes it difficult for you to understand the comparison I made to rape. It’s normal for couples to have sex. It’s normal for couples to share nude photos. It’s not normal to rape your partner. It’s not normal to share the nude photos of your partner with someone else. Both are undeniable transgressions of trust. The difference is in degree, not kind.

    Telling someone that it’s foolish to share nude photos of herself because her lover might get angry and publish them online is like telling her it’s foolish to share her bed with someone because some night he might force sex on her. Yes, I’m serious about that.

  • shay

    I’ve been married 31 years and I trust my husband with my life. However, if he tried to take a nude photo of me, I’d break the camera first and then him.

    Allowing someone to take a nude pictures of you just plain dumb.

  • cry4turtles

    When my husband and I first got together we discussed videotaping ourselves making love. Well, I asked, he adamantly said, “No, someone might get a hold of it.” It was pertinent then, and more so now. No matter how much you all want to change the world, and I commend you for it, bad choices will often have bad consequences, and vice versa. Allowing someone to photograph you in the buff is often a bad choice.

  • Ichthyic

    As far as I know, not locking your front door is not criminal. But if someone walked in through your (unlocked) front door and stole your TV (say), your insurance company wouldn’t pay out because you have a level of culpability.

    ah yes, the morals driven by insurance company argument.

    *sigh*

    this is a form of victim blaming that is VERY common in the antipodes. I see it all the time here in NZ too; the police spending their advertising dollars chastising people for leaving their cars unlocked instead of chastising the criminals who steal them.

    becomes ingrained after many generations I have gathered.

  • Ichthyic

    When my husband and I first got together we discussed videotaping ourselves making love. Well, I asked, he adamantly said, “No, someone might get a hold of it.”

    too bad. you could have had that to look back on with some fondness.

  • Ichthyic

    cry4turtles is not paying any attention the very eloquent arguments you all are making in trying to explain this to her.

    can’t see the point in continuing.

  • screechymonkey

    Ichthyic, you’re right. She’s convinced that bad things will never happen to her, because they only happen to people who aren’t as smart, careful, and moral as her. And that’s all she really wants out of this conversation: to protect her belief in a just world.

  • http://noadi.etsy.com Noadi

    I’m having a really hard time wrapping my brain around all the victim blaming here. What the hell is wrong with you people? Not just the victim blaming but the thinking that nude photos are such an awful horrible thing? There have got to be dozens of nude pictures of me out there, some are photos, some are life drawings. I’m not ashamed, nor should I be, that they exist. The difference between those pictures and revenge porn is that I had control of the situations and there was no invasion of privacy involved.

    If it wasn’t for prudish attitudes like some I’m seeing here revenge porn wouldn’t have nearly the power it does. If it was only seen as an invasion of someone’s privacy instead of a scandalous thing then there would be almost no incentive for people to post it.

    I have zero fear of any of the nude photos I’ve sent to exes being put up as revenge because they are all decent people. Most people are decent and don’t do bullshit like post naked photos of their exes. You know who does? Abusers. This is just another form of intimate partner abuse and stalking. So unless you want to blame her for getting into a relationship with an abuser at all the photos thing is ridiculous.

  • cry4turtles

    I’m not running away from the conversation. I had to sleep. I’m glad that Noadi is proud of her nude photos, and is sharing them. But thinking there’s no chances of negative consequences (some people are rotten) is living with your head in the sand. But now, I must wonder; was this girl really concerned about the photos? It seems to be commonplace now. Perhaps she should just say “C’est la vie” and be concerned about the threat. Personally, from the article and the comments, it seems the cops arrested the guy because he was belligerent to them. Then they charged him with post the pics. The supposed sister in law claimed the guy was a pretty overt asshole. Yeah, I dated him, and every other abuser this side of the Mississippi, but I learned from my mistakes, dumped them, and moved on. Nude photos would’ve complicated some of those break ups. I don’t think anyone here wants to blame the victim. We just hope she learns from it. Take many more nude photos, hell become a nudist! Just don’t let assholes gain control of you and your life/future with actions you may regret. People do still regret actions don’t they?

  • Jackie

    I hope she learned to keep her clothes on when the cameras are rolling. Not blaming the victim, but sheesh!

    Yes, you are and women can be misogynists too. Internalized misogyny is a thing. I don’t know what you think your age has to do with anything.

    ..and help yourself to an extra “Fuck you” from me.

  • Jackie

    Fuck you too, shay says.

    You don’t trust your husband? Fine. That doesn’t mean it is stupid to trust people. When someone betrays your trust, they did something wrong. Not you.

    Remember everyone, when a man does anything horrible to hurt a woman, it is always the woman’s fault.

    What was she thinking wearing that?

    What was she thinking drinking?

    What did she expect when she went to a party?

    She was abused? She should have picked a better partner.

    Her ex posted intimate photos of her online for revenge? How stupid of her to trust a man with nude photos!

  • Jackie

    Cry4turtles,

    This is the hill you want to die on? Women should know better than to trust men? If they do, they’re stupid?

    Nobody thinks less of men than misogynists.

  • Jackie

    I hope she learned to keep her clothes on when the cameras are rolling.

    He really taught her a lesson, didn’t he?

    Someone had to teach her the error of her ways!

    That’s what she gets, right?

    She was reckless by trusting a man and she rightfully paid the price for being reckless when a man decided to hurt her by betraying that trust, amiright?

    Jesus, it almost sounds like you’re cheering him on.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=523300770 stuartsmith

    “I hope she learned to keep her clothes on when the cameras are rolling. Not blaming the victim, but sheesh!”

    Okay, so lets ignore the victim blaming here, and move on to the sheer practical problems. These days, the overwhelming majority of people carry a video camera in their pockets, or have one lying around their house. They can literally be filming in 15 seconds, should they see something of interest. The longest part of this is getting the camera out of your pocket. So, what you are really saying is “Always keep your clothes on if there’s another human being in your home,” or possibly “Make all future boyfriends check their phones at the front door.”

    If you are dating someone for any length of time, there is no practical way to avoid being photographed or filmed naked – you are dependent upon trust. So, not only are you blaming the victim, but you’re blaming her for something that she had no practical way of avoiding. If you REALLY wanted to blame her, I guess you could point to her terrible choice of boyfriends, but it’s not like people never pretend to be other than they are.

    Really, the worst people in this aren’t even directly involved – they’re the people who turn nude pictures of yourself into more than a minor annoyance. One person is posting pictures of her, sure, but if other people were just shrugging and saying “So a girl got naked around her boyfriend, so what?” then that would be then end of it. The fact is that she’s likely getting comments like yours from the MOST sympathetic people in her life, with the majority being far worse, is the real attack.

    Being naked with your boyfriend is not a crime, it is not morally wrong, it is not even a mistake. It is completely normal behavior for people who have boyfriends.

  • eric

    cry4turtles:

    Ed’s article said “ex-girlfriend”. Perhaps I’m old-school, but in my day, “No nude photographs” was a part of parental dating advice, and those were the days of Polaroids!

    I did make a mistake in thinking they were married, but then again I think my argument applies just as well to long-term couples even if they aren’t married.

    Just don’t plan on running for office, or getting a divorce, or breaking up, or having a custody battle. The fact is- nude photographs can be used against you. Why risk it?

    Because you love and trust the person and they’ve asked you to do it? After all, we’re not talking about something morally objectionable here.

    You also bring up a deeper problem in our puritanical society: the fact that we judge people as unfit parents or unfit for public office if we find out they’re doing in private what we all do in private. I guess its practical to recognize that publicly acknowledging ones’ sexuality can have this sort of cost, but we should really work to change it, not accept it as a reasonable thing. Because it really isn’t reasonable. Just think for a moment, of the complete idiocy inherent in judging someone in a custody battle unfit to be a parent because you have video evidence they had sex. What, the fact that they had a kid didn’t clue you in? Its absurd.

    If your daughter would ask (hypothetically), “Mom, dad, Joey wants to take naked pictures of me.” What would your advice be?

    If she just met Joey, it would be ‘take it reasonably slow,’ because that would be my advice to pretty much any action I considered to be big or serious or a commitment.

    If she had been dating Joey for six months or a few years, my response would “it’s your love life, do what you think is right.”

  • http://florilegia.wordpress.com Ibis3, Let’s burn some bridges

    Thank you, thank you to Athywren, Azkyroth, Brony, Gretchen, Jackie, and screechymonkey. And a hearty fuck you to cry4turtles for your victim blaming. There are photos of me in the hands of someone I don’t trust and because of it I’ve felt a need to curtail my life in various ways. I totally regret letting him take those pictures, but here’s the thing. It’s not because I made a mistake in being naked and posed (yeah, so not just vanilla pics) in a couple of photos, it’s because I made a mistake in trusting someone who turned out to be untrustworthy. I made a very considered decision based on all the knowledge I had at the time. I had no way of knowing that this person that I trusted enough to be so vulnerable in the presence of would later turn out to be someone who would threaten to rape me because I refused to have sex with him. I wasn’t being unwise I was just being human and friendly and trusting in someone who had been intimate and trusting with me, and if he ever posts those pics (I don’t know if he has, I’ve never come across them), that will be his moral failing not mine.

  • http://florilegia.wordpress.com Ibis3, Let’s burn some bridges

    Oh, and I’m now in my forties, so this whole old-timer thing? It’s bullshit.

    I don’t have a daughter, but I think I’d say (assuming she’s over eighteen) “This is one of those things where you have to jump off a cliff blindfolded. You can’ t be sure of anyone, not really. Bad things could happen that you may not have thought of. So if you’re not 100% comfortable with trusting Joey, don’t feel pressured to do it. You can say no. That’ s your right and don’t let anyone prude-shame you into doing something sexually that you don’t want to do. If you love and trust and are doing it because you want to do it, then go ahead. Know I’ll be here for you and understand and never blame you if ever things go awry.”

  • http://cheapsignals.blogspot.com Gretchen

    But thinking there’s no chances of negative consequences

    Nobody said that. Nobody. Put that strawman down and back away slowly.

    What we are saying is that the fact that a choice has a chance of negative consequences (and what meaningful choice doesn’t have such a chance?) doesn’t make it a bad choice.

    You’re only unable to see this because you apparently see no positive consequences in sharing nude photos. Maybe for you, there aren’t any. For countless other people, there are. That’s kinda why they do it.

  • cry4turtles

    “because I made a mistake in trusting someone who turned out to be untrustworthy.”

    And therein lies the lesson. But perhaps nowadays, people hand out their trust like their nude photos. Do boyfriends really think snapping nude pics (or girlfriends) is so nonchalant? Seems non-consensual nude photo-posting is here to stay. What a theater of pain! Fuck yous and name calling not necessary.

  • Gen, Uppity Ingrate and Ilk

    Shorter cry4turtles:

    Fucking sluts, giving out trust like it’s candy. See what happens when you trust a man? DO YOU SEE?!

    And they say the radical feminists who aren’t TERFS hate men.

  • http://florilegia.wordpress.com Ibis3, Let’s burn some bridges

    What lesson? That people can’t be trusted? Should everyone go and live up on a mountaintop alone and desolate because sometimes other human beings suck? This man violated my trust by threatening to rape me. A man I had been very good friends with for several years (we were never boyfriend/girlfriend). Is that what you’re calling “handing out their trust”? He destroyed other friendships I had by saying things behind my back (what he said I’ve never found out). Even if I had never let him take those photos, the betrayal would have been the same. Don’t you get that? It isn’t about the photos. It’s about the fact that he was a betrayer and an abuser who thought he was entitled to what he wanted regardless of how I felt. Should every potential future friend or lover be deprived of our relationships because I’ve “learned my lesson” and will thus refuse to trust anyone ever again? What’s wrong with you? You deserve some more name calling for your judgemental victim-blaming vileness.

  • Forbidden Snowflake

    cry4turtles

    So is it horrible what this man is doing, but could have she honestly thought this would never bite her in the ass?

    Yes, she could honestly think this would never bite her in the ass. Just like it didn’t bite me or Noadi (and from what I understand, even Ibis3 even though her ex is clearly an abusive shit). Just like it doesn’t bite the vast majority of the people who do it. Do the words “hindsight bias” mean anything at all to you? Because hindsight bias is a staple of victim-blaming arguments like yours.

  • cry4turtles

    I’m more familiar with “hindsight is always 20/20”. Also pertinent here.

  • Forbidden Snowflake

    I’m more familiar with “hindsight is always 20/20″. Also pertinent here.

    Unfortunately, your comments do not demonstrate awareness of this principle. They quite frankly read like a gleeful “the slut should have known better than to do something I wouldn’t do”.

  • cry4turtles

    I’ve never called anyone a slut. I’m saying that when bad choices DO have bad consequences, a lesson should be learned, or ignored so that it can happen again, whatever.

  • Forbidden Snowflake

    I’ve never called anyone a slut. I’m saying that when bad choices DO have bad consequences, a lesson should be learned, or ignored so that it can happen again, whatever.

    *facepalm*

    No, that’s not what you said. You didn’t apply this line of reasoning to any other kind of “bad choices having bad consequences” (singling this out as “a different subject” in comment 26), apparently because you like those other forms of risk-taking, but not this one.

    Also, how do you not see that characterizing this is “bad choices” is an example of hindsight being 20/20? The exact same choice works out quite well for most people who make it, including some in this thread. But you jumped on your hobbyhorse, eager to chime in with your smug “I hope you learned the lesson that you should be more like me” without even bothering to condemn the actual abuser first.

    Whatever. If everyone who came before me couldn’t get you to listen, I probably don’t have a chance either.

  • Athywren

    @cry4turtles, 62

    Seems non-consensual nude photo-posting is here to stay. What a theater of pain!

    And why is that, exactly? Because society cannot change?

    There was a time when becoming pregnant out of wedlock was enough to almost irredeemably ruin a woman’s life, but this is no longer the case in most of the western world, because societies change. Hell, there was a time when the merest suggestion that an unmarried woman wasn’t a virgin was enough to see her stoned to death, and yet we’ve managed to move beyond that. So why would we be unable to move beyond this?

    As for the victim blaming thing, which you still seem to dispute… I don’t think anyone here disagrees with you that those pictures wouldn’t have been posted online if he hadn’t been given them. That’s a pretty clear case. One cannot post revenge porn unless they have the pictures. The problem is that you’re concentrating on that, rather than the actual problem of people feeling justified in ignoring other people’s right to consent and privacy; of our society still holding the Madonna/whore dichotomy over women and giving power to such pictures.

    The same logic that supports telling people not to share nude pictures with whomever they’re dating also supports hiding women’s entire bodies under burkas; never going out in the evenings or at night; flirting with new people, etc.

    Yes, there is risk in almost every decision we make, we make ourselves vulnerable to others every time we get out of bed, and even a significant number of the times that we get into a bed, but we cannot hide in our single, otherwise empty beds all of our lives.

    If we want to live safe lives, we must fight to make the world safe. Hiding from it only invites it to box us in and destroy us.

  • cry4turtles

    Athywren, thank you for your eloquent post. I really am not any of the above things, and I really can be shown the errors of my ways

    “The problem is that you’re concentrating on that, rather than the actual problem of people feeling justified in ignoring other people’s right to consent and privacy;”

    Yrs, I do believe this is where the impasse is. The asshole who did this is absolutely despicable. I agree. This kind of thing needs to stop. I agree. Prosecute the offenders to the fullest extent of the law. I agree. Change societies reaction to nude pics, I agree, but instead of giving any advice on wether a family member or friend should share nude pics, I’ll simply bookmark this story. Then it will be an informed choice and not something done on a whim.