Hagee: Denying Gay Rights a ‘Matter of Survival’

Of all the ridiculous arguments against gay rights, and gay marriage specifically, the single dumbest one has to be the “but if we don’t have children, the entire species will go extinct” argument. Naturally, the demon spawn of John Hagee thinks it’s terribly convincing.

Apparently convinced that this is a compelling and intelligent argument, Hagee repeated it on yesterday’s program, declaring that it is an “economical fact” that America needs more people and so allowing gay marriage will inevitably lead to the total collapse of society.

“It is impossible for same-sex marriage to do what biblical marriage does: create children,” Hagee said. “Without the procreation of children, the American society economically, will fail; culturally, will fail. It is not a matter of right or privilege, it’s a matter of survival.”

This never fails to make me laugh. Do they really think that allowing gay people to get married is going to cause straight people to stop having children? Well, kinda. The key to understanding why they make this type of argument goes back to something I’ve been pointing out for years: the overwhelming power of The Gay. The Christian right ascribes extraordinary power to The Gay. They really do believe that if we don’t make the lives of gay people as miserable as possible, there will be no way to deter others from turning gay. They think being gay is the most alluring, tempting thing imaginable. So if we actually start treating them as human beings with equal rights, everyone will immediately begin having gay sex wherever they happen to be standing. It will be total gay mayhem!

https://youtu.be/G4hMG8MHvT

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  • Jared James

    Imagine my surprise that straight men who spend their lives thinking about gay sex and pretend to believe the world instantly poofed into being Last Thursday don’t understand population genetics, either.

  • http://howlandbolton.com richardelguru

    You may laugh, but knowing about gay marriage not only has made me not want to have more children, but has made me want to eat the ones I already have…pass the fava beans and a nice chianti…

  • John Pieret

    It is so alluring that Gordon Klingyshit thinks that, within a hundred years, 20% of Americans will be gay*.

    http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/klingenschmitt-within-hundred-years-twenty-percent-americans-will-be-recruited-homosexuality

    Wait a minute! A hundred years? I thought the I thought the Rapture and Armageddon were just around the corner!

    ____________________________________________

    *He bases it on a misunderstanding of statistics, citing “the 2010 census found that less than one percent of the population was gay whereas now it is up to around three percent” and never having heard of the term “sampling error.”

  • raven

    A whole lot of lies in a few sentences. Clearly Matthew Hagee has decades of experience in lying.

    declaring that it is an “economical fact” that America needs more people and so allowing gay marriage will inevitably lead to the total collapse of society.

    1. It isn’t a fact that the USA needs more people. That is just his opinion. And has nothing to do with economics.

    The US population is still growing due to immigration and demographic momentum. With present trends it will be 350 million in a few decades.

    2. There is a theory that we need more young people to finance the Boomers in retirement, the population bulge.

    It’s frequently repeated and just wrong.

    If your economic model requires continual population growth, your model is seriously, completely fucked up. Continual population growth is impossible and at some point, causes more problems that it solves.

    3. The fundie xian solution to the imaginary not enough people problem is always evil. Forced child bearing and female slavery. Fundie xianity is at base authoritarian and misogynistic. Women aren’t people, they are breeding stock.

  • raven

    The greatest threat, and a real one at that, to the survival of the American people were George Bush and Darth Cheney.

    1. When the Great Recession happened. the US birth rate fell sharply. Below replacement level. It has since recovered but not all that much.

    2. When the economy is bad and the future looks grim, people slow down having children. They match their resources to their family size. (On average.)

    The greatest threats now to the survival of the Americans are…the Tea Party/GOP and the oligarchies, the 1%. The middle class is shrinking and inequality is growing. The average American is getting poorer as our economy grows.

    And people aren’t that interested in struggling to raise children in a world that is going downhill not uphill.

    Bush/Cheney, the Tea party, the GOP, the fundie xians, and the Hagees aren’t the solution. They are the problem.

  • raven

    *He bases it on a misunderstanding of statistics, citing

  • raven

    Well, shoot. That truncation was FTB’s fault. I’ve been getting error messages all morning.

    *He bases it on a misunderstanding of statistics, citing

  • raven

    Well, shoot. That truncation was FTB’s fault. I’ve been getting error messages all morning. Or it doesn’t like a character I just deleted.

    *He bases it on a misunderstanding of statistics, citing the 2010 census found that less than one percent of the population was gay whereas now it is up to around three percent” and never having heard of the term “sampling error.”

    What!!!

    That doesn’t look right. He is basing it on the voices in his head.

    AFAIK, the US census never has and never will ask people if they are gay. They don’t even ask them what their religion is.

  • U Frood

    ” it is an “economical fact” that America needs more people”

    But I thought we had to stop all the people sneaking across our Southern border…

  • StevoR

    But the northern borders cool right? In more ways than just temperature ~wise becoz .. um,well, ah, ahem, y’know ..yeah , um er ..

    (But to be safe lets declare war on Canada anyway!*)

    *Let’s not actually.

  • StevoR

    @ ^ 9. U Frood

  • dingojack

    “economical with the facts“. FIFY Hagee.

    Dingo

  • peterh

    I submit the maternity wards are still very much in business. But folks like Hagee can’t let their fantasies get derailed by reality.

  • Childermass

    *He bases it on a misunderstanding of statistics, citing “the 2010 census found that less than one percent of the population was gay whereas now it is up to around three percent” and never having heard of the term “sampling error.”

    The census has never asked me about sexual orientation and I was chosen fill out the asininely long American Community Survey. A quick Google reveals that they are considering asking in 2020. So whatever source of info was, we can be sure that it was not the census. Besides, the census people ask enough people that sampling error could not possibly be the explanation. Sampling error is far smaller than a percent if you ask 250,000 households a month (as for the ACS) or try for every single household (the 10-year census). There might be (and almost certainly is) other forms of error though: biases, lying, and in my case a simple unwillingness to dig out old utility bills.

  • scienceavenger

    “It is impossible for same-sex marriage to do what biblical marriage does: create children,” Hagee said. “Without the procreation of children, the American society economically, will fail;

    You know, we are all so quick to jump on the obvious flaws in this argument, we don’t see that it fails on its own terms. Take a trip with me into Hagee’s imaginary future: Teh Gay has been allowed to spread, and our country has become the United Gays of America. The birth rate has dropped to zero (I know, but work with me here).

    Now, what does Mr. Hagee suppose humanity will do at this point? After all, we might all be gay now, but we won’t have lost our collective knowledge of population genetics, or love of humanity and a desire for it to continue. Does he think we would just sit there, watching the population of humanity shrink year after year down to the last homo (sapien) on earth? Of course not. Scientists would develop new and better ways to create children, as well as improve upon the ones we already have (in vitro fertilization, etc.) Humanity would continue, albeit in a form different than what we have now. But hasn’t that been our history for the last 200,000 or so years?

    So chill out Hagee. Even if everyone became gay (we won’t) and even if no gays had children (they do), humanity and American society would continue.

  • dingojack

    My dear Hagee – how fortunate that Russia, China, Saudi Arabia, Singapore etc. won’t collapse due to your (hypothetical*) population crisis then.

    What, you thought that the US was the only country in the whole world??

    @@ Dingo

    —————-

    * this is the absolutely kindest interpretation possible I’d say…

  • footface

    Gayhem.

  • Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    Forty hours of strap-ons: quaking! Eruptions!

    The dykes fisting anyone they crave!

    Human living-vice! Dogs and cats, gay-sexing together: mass hysteria!

  • dingojack

    Crip Dyke – Shit — you mean I’m gonna have to get measured up for a mandatory strap-on? Bummer.

    😉 Dingo

  • Saad

    richardelguru,

    You may laugh, but knowing about gay marriage not only has made me not want to have more children, but has made me want to eat the ones I already have

    Same here! Except I ended up organizing a death panel for the elderly in my neighborhood too.

  • John Pieret

    Childermass:

    Besides, the census people ask enough people that sampling error could not possibly be the explanation.

    I probably misused the term. My last foray into statistics was (mumble) years ago in college and little enough of it stuck then. I just meant that if you have two studies that show a large change in demographics over a short time, the first thing you should do is look at the studies and certainly not just project out a constant rise in that demographic over time based on just two data points.

  • wscott

    The problem here (well, one of many…) is that while we see “gay” as something people are, Hagee et. al. persist in seeing gay as something people do. In their minds it’s an activity, not an orientation. Thus the more an activity becomes accepted, the more people are likely to do it. (Think smoking. Or opting out of vaccinations.) Furthermore we’re talking about a SINFUL activity, which by definition people are drawn to against their will because Satan. So by that “logic” if society says this behavior is acceptable, we would expect to see an increase in that activity.

    .

    The above paragraph is complete bullshit, obviously. But I think that’s how the fundagelicals see it, based on their faulty assumptions going in. I don’t know how you counter that, since arguing “gays are people” misses the point from their (warped) perspective. And it’s not like that crowd finds scientific data terribly convincing in other areas. Fortunately they’re dying off and the next generation already sees it for what it is.

    .

    Another issue here is the persistent undercurrent of right-wing fear that non-white people are out-breeding us God Fearing White People ™ and might some day have the power to treat “us” the way we’ve treated “them” for so long. Can’t have that.

  • http://thebronzeblog.wordpress.com/ Bronze Dog

    This never fails to make me laugh. Do they really think that allowing gay people to get married is going to cause straight people to stop having children? …. They really do believe that if we don’t make the lives of gay people as miserable as possible, there will be no way to deter others from turning gay. They think being gay is the most alluring, tempting thing imaginable. So if we actually start treating them as human beings with equal rights, everyone will immediately begin having gay sex wherever they happen to be standing. It will be total gay mayhem!

    I’m finding it hard to laugh, myself, since this whole idea has me wondering how big a proportion of homophobic fundamentalists are homosexual but unable to accept it. This homophobe meme makes sense, at least to me, if you start with the hypothesis that many of the people espousing it are homosexual or bisexual and are forcing themselves to act heterosexual without realizing it. They have homosexual urges and attractions that are hard to resist. They’ve convinced themselves they’re heterosexual and can’t find out otherwise from being in a sex-negative culture that discourages talking about such things. Peers assume that they’re heterosexual because they’ve often married a person of the opposite sex and reproduced (likely with much discomfort and because it was expected of them) and because homosexuals allegedly never do that. Because of these factors, they incorrectly assume that all heterosexuals experience homosexual urges and need a culture that represses those urges because they ‘need’ it. I end up feeling more pity than anger towards people like this.

    The hypothesis fits a lot of my anecdata and offers a seemingly self-consistent and relatively simple explanation for the argument’s existence. Of course, reality is messy, stupidity is infinite, some people will happily tell outrageous lies to gain their tribe’s approval, and a lot of religious misanthropes assume that humans will always take the stupid/evil options by default without a babysitter in the sky to tell them otherwise. Consequently, there’s still plenty of alternative explanations born of simple irrationality.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @ U Frood #9

    America needs more of the right kind of people. You know, white, male, evangelical, right wing. In part to counter all of those brown people coming over the border now.

  • xuuths

    Since most straight guys I know wouldn’t interrupt having sex with a woman if the bed were literally on fire, I can safely say that they don’t give a single thought to gay marriage while they’re in the act of coitus.

    And there aren’t any straight men who are going to say “I am not going to have sex ever again because gays are getting legally married.” Not a single straight man anywhere on the planet.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    It is impossible for same-sex marriage to do what biblical marriage does: create children…

    Wow. My Sex Ed course was way off.

  • cptdoom

    He is likely referring to statistics on the number of same-sex couples the census has counted, because as others have noted, the census does not ask about sexual orientation. The census IIRC changed how they counted and classified those couples, likely accounting for the increase in number. From other surveys I have seen – exit polls during elections and marketing surveys mostly – a steady 4-6% of the population self identifies as gay or lesbian.

  • D. C. Sessions

    I submit the maternity wards are still very much in business.

    Yes and no. The birthrate among Hagee’s (and Robertson’s, and …) people is dropping like a rock. For instance, none of the girls he grew up with are having babies any more.

  • moarscienceplz

    Hagee repeated it on yesterday’s program, declaring that it is an “economical fact” that America needs more people

    You gotta hand it to him, Hagee has always been economical with facts.

  • Kermit Sansoo

    Bronze Dog: I’m finding it hard to laugh, myself, since this whole idea has me wondering how big a proportion of homophobic fundamentalists are homosexual but unable to accept it. This homophobe meme makes sense, at least to me, if you start with the hypothesis that many of the people espousing it are homosexual or bisexual and are forcing themselves to act heterosexual without realizing it.

    .

    Undoubtedly there are some. But Fundamentalists think that, without a constant focus on Jee-aysus and the threat of God’s wrath, they would all do the most incredibly perverse things they can imagine. The things they imagine they would do have little to do with the things they actually want to do. Part of the reason they stay focused on God is that if they fall too far under the influence of Satan, they will be tempted to do all those awful things – read science books, moon the minister, cheat on their spouse (again!), and indulge in interspecies romance. They don’t want to want to do those things. I had a co-worker who insisted that he could prefer a different flavor of ice cream over his current favorite, or want to want to make love to another male, if he decided to. These think that you can believe something by an act of will, and desire something by an act of will. They seem to have no insight into how their own minds work.

  • caseloweraz

    I’m not interested in a pool, but I wonder how long it will be until someone makes a Christian movie purporting to portray this “threat to survival” — sort of an Idiocracy in reverse.

  • sigurd jorsalfar

    They really do believe this argument because their entire world view tells them that human sexual preference can change in an instant from straight to gay because of, you know, Satan.

  • kantalope

    I like to ask them how they decided to be straight. Did they list pluses and minuses for each choice? On the one hand social acceptance assumed on the other hand fabulous fashion sense. Damn hard to make a decision.

  • jnorris

    Raven, the population demographic Mr Hagee is worried about is the decline in white males, especially the True Christian ™ ones. Surely American/Western Civilization will be in ruins when the number falls to 49.999%

  • Lofty

    Copulation outside of protestant church married white straight christian american couples doesn’t lead to more children? How interesting.

  • http://www.facebook.com/whumenansky williamhumenansky

    Abstinence only birth control has pretty much seen to our need for more people. What we need is people with brains. I know. That’s too much to ask. But, I’m all for Hagee and his like failing to survive. Kind of ironic if evolution would bite them that way.

  • felidae

    For Hagee, gay rights is certainly a threat to HIS economic survival–what else will he be able to use to motivate the suckers to send in money to his ministry, I mean scam operation