The Iran Deal Looks Very Promising

On Thursday, one day late, negotiators announced that they had reached a framework for a more detailed agreement on Iran’s nuclear program that will place strict limits on that country’s ability to refine uranium and plutonium in exchange for the easing of sanctions by the United States and Europe. Vox explains the details and it looks like we got most everything we wanted. Some of the bullet points:

1. Iran has to reduce the number of centrifuges from 20,000 to 6,000 and they can only use the oldest, least efficient first-generation centrifuges to enrich uranium or plutonium (the two substances used in nuclear weapons when very highly enriched, but used for power production at far far lower enrichment levels).

2. They can only refine uranium to 3.67%. It must be enriched to about 90% to make a nuclear weapon, so that’s a serious restriction that ensures that they can only use it for power generation, not weapons.

3. Similar restrictions on the enrichment of plutonium, which they have far less of, so they can’t get anywhere close to being able to use it for a bomb.

4. They have to reduce their stockpile of enriched uranium all the way down to 300 kilograms, from the 10,000 kilograms they currently have. The stockpile they have is nowhere near enriched enough to make a bomb.

5. Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency have free access to all nuclear facilities and authority to access any “suspicious sites” if they discover any. This includes even their uranium mines and facilities that make centrifuges.

6. The sanctions will be lifted only after all of those conditions are met, not until then.

This is only a framework and there are lots of details to be worked out, like how to dispose of their uranium stockpiles and such. But this is about as good a deal as one could have imagined to restrain the Iranian nuclear program so it can only be used for peaceful energy production, not for weapons. The right wing, of course, is freaking out, but that was inevitable. There was no possible agreement that they would not freak out about, purely for political purposes.

If the agreement was to disband the entire Iranian government and hand over total political control over to the United States, the wingnuts would be arguing that the failure to kill all of the leaders of the country is proof that Obama is in league with them and wants to spread Muslim terrorism to destroy America. Their furious objections have nothing remotely to do with the substance of the agreement.

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  • raven

    On Thursday, one day late, negotiators announced that they had reached a framework for a more detailed agreement on Iran’s nuclear program…

    Scott Walker and the GOP announced a few hours later that they will blow up that agreement.

    They don’t even know what it is but have already declared war on it.

  • karmacat

    The other worry the neocons have is that it will give them one less excuse to attack Iran

  • StevoR

    Hope so. Peace.

    To Iran, to us, I hope. They are human individuals – and so are we.

    Also, yes, what Ed said – esp. that last paragraph.

  • colnago80

    The ghost of Neville Chamberlain once again raises his head as another western leader opts for appeasement, rather then standing firm. There can be no doubt or question that sometime in the fairly near future, which Neville Obama hopes will be after he leaves office, Iran will develop nuclear weapons and the genie will be out of the bottle. The intentions of the ayatollahs are clear, effective control of the entire Middle East with the other nations reduced to puppets. This will give them control of the largest deposits of oil in the world which they will use to blackmail the West into acquiescence. Thanks a lot Neville Obama. As George Santayana once said, “those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it“.

  • http://www.ranum.com Marcus Ranum

    The intentions of the ayatollahs are clear, effective control of the entire Middle East with the other nations reduced to puppets

    You mean like the other undeclared nuclear power in the region and the US have been doing for decades?

  • gshelley

    I guess he hasn’t seen the Republican responses, which confirm that the deal was totally different to what we went in to try and get, and that Iran would be able to just ignore it and build up their stockpile so they can make nuclear weapons.

    Or perhaps he did see that and realised they aren’t going to support a deal, no matter how good it is for the US and the world unless Netanyahu gives them permission.

  • D. C. Sessions

    Cute headline, Ed. Once, that is, one considers what fuels this blog.

  • raven

    Oddly enough, Iran might be a natural ally of the USA.

    1. The Sunni Shia split happened very early on, soon after Islam was invented. Somewhere in the 7th century. And it was violent back then, with wars over it.

    2. And it is been going ever since.

    3. 90% of the world’s Moslems are Sunnis. And a lot of them would like a Final Solution to the Shia problem. They are fighting Sunni Shiite right now in Syria, Iraq, Parkistan, and Yemen. Iran and Iraq fought a bloody war over basically nothing not that long ago.

    4. Iran could use a few allies. They are in a bad neighborhood and outnumbered. We aren’t their main problem. We are one ocean and many thousands of miles away. The Sunnis surround them.

  • dingojack

    SLC – yes, we remember Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

    Dingo

  • AndrewD

    Given that there are already tried and (underground) tested Islamic Nuclear Weapons, when will the republicans start calling for war with Pakistan?

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    6. The sanctions will be lifted only after all of those conditions are met, not until then.

    Actually, I just heard someone say on NPR that the sanctions would be SUSPENDED, not lifted; and that they could therefore be “snapped back” into place if Iran were found to be violating the deal.

    As for colnago’s latest tantrum @4, I think we can just ignore it and read Kaveh Mousavi’s take on Iranian affairs instead. He actually LIVES there, so offhand, I’m guessing his word is more reliable than that of a drooling chickenhawk raving about “The ghost of Neville Chamberlain.”

  • raven

    The intentions of the ayatollahs are clear, effective control of the entire Middle East with the other nations reduced to puppets

    Doubt it.

    It would be like us in Iraq. They would end up holding a bag with a 100 million Sunni people who hate them. A bag with 100 million angry cobras.

    Hmmm, this could be an opportunity for us. We could hand them our bag of snakes labeled Iraq and ISIS and let them worry about it.

  • Nick Gotts

    There can be no doubt or question that sometime in the fairly near future, which Neville Obama hopes will be after he leaves office, Iran will develop nuclear weapons and the genie will be out of the bottle. – colnago80

    Says the fuckwit who assured us all there was absolutely no doubt or question Iran was going to explode a nuclear weapon in 2014.

  • colnago80

    Re Nick Gotts @ #13

    Says the fuckwit who assured us all there was absolutely no doubt or question Iran was going to explode a nuclear weapon in 2014.

    For which we can thank the CIA and the Mossad who have assiduously ratfucked the Iranian nuclear weapons program (stuxnet anyone). Unfortunately, ratfucking only postpones the inevitable.

  • StevoR

    @ ^ NIck Gotts & #9. dingojack : In fairness Colnago80 has since changed his position here and no longer thinks that’s the best course of action.

    Individual’s opinions evolve over time, Mine have too. Yours as well probably. At some point maybe y’all need to move on and stop blaming people for views they once used to hold but don’t anymore eh?

  • StevoR

    @14. colnago80 : I don’t think its inevitable that Iran gets nukes.

    There are a lot of alternative possibilities with varying probabilities of happening.

    I hope Iran never does get nukes.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    raven: I wouldn’t call Iran a “natural ally” of the USA, but I would say that the USA has a vital and compelling interest in letting Iran exist in peace, and to continue to develop its democratic institutions, with minimal outside interference. Huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim world are in total chaos now, because of both Sunni government incompetence (and certain historical charlie-foxtrots laying the ground for shitty governance), and incompetent US response to same. That’s going to get worse before it gets better (Saudi Arabia’s corrupt royal families can’t keep on buying off their enemies forever); and any state that can stay together and be a force for regional stability would be doing all of Mankind a world of good.

    And if they end up getting nukes, it won’t make that much of a difference. We didn’t have to bomb China or the USSR to keep them from getting nukes, so why should we have to bomb a much smaller country like Iran?

  • StevoR

    I hope Iran’s govt is toppled from within and changes into a far more reasonable and democratic system. I don’t know how realistic this is – but it nearly happened once and good people died trying to make it so :

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mElMuMk_uGs

    TRIGGER WARNING : Real human killed.

  • daved

    @4

    As George Santayana once said, “those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it“.

    I’ve often thought that it’s unfortunate that Santayana didn’t come out with an equally memorable quote about people who use nonsensical historical analogies. This deal is nothing like Chamberlain’s negotiations with Hitler and it’s stupid to assert otherwise.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    I hope Iran’s govt is toppled from within and changes into a far more reasonable and democratic system.

    In case you haven’t noticed, StevoR, Iran’s government has been moving in a more reasonable and democratic direction ever since Khomeini died. It’s slow, to be sure, but it was a pretty slow slog for America too. There’s no need to “topple” anything — that would only make things WORSE, by undermining the institutional stability on which any meaningful democracy would depend.

  • StevoR

    @Raging Bee :“And if they end up getting nukes, it won’t make that much of a difference.”

    In fairness you and your family and friends and country aren’t on the line in hoping and guessing and betting that that claim is correct. Your perspective may be – likely would be – completely different if it were otherwise.

    Please put yourself in an Israelis position.

    There are good reasons and horrendous precedents explaining why Jewish people have learnt to take threats of wiping them and their one and only tiny nation off the map kinda seriously.

    Israel and the six million or so Israeli human individuals have the right to live and defend themselves from those who wish them all dead. Do you seriously question that? Who are you to tell them what to do in the face of threatened extermination and genocide, dude?

  • StevoR

    @20. Raging Bee : Maybe. I don’t know. But try to see how others might see things in different circumstances from yours okay, please?

    Put yourself in an Israeli leaders feet if you can. Metaphorically speaking.

  • StevoR

    I don’t want war.

  • StevoR

    I want to see genocide even less.

  • brucegee1962

    It’s also worth pointing out that the people who are threatening to scuttle this deal were the exact same people who said “If we put tough sanctions on Iran, it will force them to the negotiating table where we can make them give up their nukes.”

    This really feels like deja vu with Obamacare:

    Step 1: Come up with Plan A.

    Step 2: Get Democrats to say, “Hey, this plan is actually pretty good! If we come on board, we can do that bipartisan thing, right?”

    Step 3: Say “Bwahaha! You stepped into our trap! We actually hate Plan A — in fact, you will destroy the country if you implement it!”

    Step 4: Profit! Votes!

  • colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #11

    Kaveh may have a good handle on the desires of the Iranian populous but the ayatollah don’t give a flying fuck what the populous wants. They act under the delusion that they are carrying out Allah’s orders.

    Re Raging Bee @ #17

    Huge chunks of the Sunni Muslim world are in total chaos now, because of both Sunni government incompetence (and certain historical charlie-foxtrots laying the ground for shitty governance), and incompetent US response to same

    This totally ignores the interference of Iran in Syria, Yemen, and Lebanon via their wholly owned subsidiaries which are at least as responsible for what’s going on in those countries as Sunni incompetence and George W. Bush’s ill fated adventure in Iraq. I’m surprised Bee, that you aren’t blaming the mess on Israel.

    Re daved@ #19

    I have a flash for daved. A nuclear armed Iran is far more dangerous in 2015 and beyond then Nazi Germany was in 1938.

  • StevoR

    Against anyone. World is too full of hate and pain and misery as it is without needing any additions to the stocks of that.

  • dingojack

    “I have a flash for daved. A nuclear armed Iran is far more dangerous in 2015 and beyond then Nazi Germany was in 1938.”

    [citations required]

    Dingo

  • StevoR

    I think part of the deal should be a non-aggression pact and normalisation of relations between Iran and Israel.

    The Ayatollahs need to recognise that Israel ain’t going away and stop trying to wipe out it out through any means – rhetorical, diplomatic, economic or military. As long as Israel justifiably feels threatened with endless war, carnage and extermination and Iran keeps spewing its “Greater and lesser Satans / Death to Israel and America / Zionist entity” crap its going to be bloody hard to see any chink of light in the South-West Asian vicinity. They need to recognise reality -including the Humanity and rights of the Jewish nation to determine its own future and live safely and in freedom from terror.

    Same for the Palestinians – who, yes, are also human and have had the shitty end of the stick for a long time – by their own choice in refusing to accept the basic humanity and human rights of the Israelis. Making peace there is too hard. Its been tried too many times without success because the hatred and cycle of violence and polarisation is too strong and has poisoned too many too thoroughly. Hell you can scent that sour, bitter stench of detestation and mutual torment across the pale blue globe in every sodding internet discussion as soon as Israel’s name comes up.

    “Prick us do we not bleed. Wrong us do we not revenge?” Paraphrasing (~ish?) Willliam Shakespeare.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Please put yourself in an Israelis position.

    Okay…imagining myself as an Israeli, I’d say that an unprovoked attack on a country much bigger than my own would be a bad idea in itself. And I’d further say that if the attack is for the purpose of destroying Iran’s physical ability to build nuclear bombs, then a) there isn’t a reasonable chance of it succeeding, since there may be facilities we might not have known about, or that our bombs missed or weren’t powerful enough to destroy; and b) if you bomb physical structures, the enemy can rebuild them, harder than before, and they WOULD rebuild them, since we’ve just given them more than enough excuse to do so by attacking them. Is there anything wrong with my imagining of how an Israeli would see this situation?

    (And what about the Israelis who didn’t vote for Bibi? Are you taking their concerns into account? Or are you just pretending to support them while using them to justify your own irresponsible bigotry?)

    Israel and the six million or so Israeli human individuals have the right to live and defend themselves from those who wish them all dead. Do you seriously question that? Who are you to tell them what to do in the face of threatened extermination and genocide, dude?

    …says the guy who still wants to launch a genocidal attack on Iran.

    Kaveh may have a good handle on the desires of the Iranian populous but the ayatollah don’t give a flying fuck what the populous wants. They act under the delusion that they are carrying out Allah’s orders.

    None of that changes the fact that Kaveh is both more intelligent and more rational than you. He’s disagreed with you on the mindset of Iran’s rulers, and you’ve just admitted he has “a good handle” on the situation. I trust him, not you, both because he shows good evidence of understanding, and because you’re just mindlessly repeating a tired old neocon pro-war attitude that’s already been proven dead wrong.

    This totally ignores the interference of Iran in Syria, Yemen, and Lebanon via their wholly owned subsidiaries…

    Again, Read what Kaveh has said: they’re not “wholly owned subsidiaries.” And they’re not creating any of the horrific chaos we’re seeing today. ISIL =/= Hezbollah, remember? Iran is Shiite, ISIL and al Qaeda are Sunni, remember?

    TRIGGER WARNING : Real human killed.

    Do you have ANY CLUE how many real humans were killed by Stalin and Mao?

  • karmacat

    The ayatollahs have their problems but they are not crazy or suicidal and they really don’t want to give up their lifestyle. Even if they get nuclear arms, they cannot use them because they will be bombed back to the stone age. And they would rather have other groups be the pawns. If they nuke Israel they do have to worry about the fallout affecting other countries and likely their own country. Nuclear weapons are the opposite of precision targeting. It is important to weigh Middle East politics with the realities of a nuclear war. There is a reason that muturally assured destruction works. No one really wants to start a nuclear war.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    In fairness you and your family and friends and country aren’t on the line in hoping and guessing and betting that that claim is correct. Your perspective may be – likely would be – completely different if it were otherwise.

    Where are YOU commenting from, you self-righteous sack of shit?

    And what makes you think I consider myself secure from the possible consequences of Israel’s bigoted warmongering?

  • colnago80

    Re dingojack @ #28

    Nazi Germany didn’t have nuclear weapons in 1938 and, as we now know, their nuclear program was suspended in 1940, thanks to a wrong calculation made by Werner Heisenberg which led to the conclusion that a hundred Kilos of 100% pure U235 would be required to sustain a chain reaction (the actual number was calculated by Otto Frisch, and Leo Szilard and is in the neighborhood of 2 kilos) and that it would take 30 years to produce it. Ole Hister, who was suffering from tertiary syphilis and Parkinson’s disease at the time know he wasn’t going to last anywhere near 30 years. In fact, when Heisenberg, Hahn and other German scientists were incarcerated in Britain after Germany’s surrender, they were told of the attack on Hiroshima and they refused to believe it. Reference: Hitler’s gift, scientists who fled Nazi Germany , by Jean Medawar (widow of Peter Medawar) and David Pyke. Notable quotation: Hitler shook the apple tree and Britain and the US gathered up the apples.

  • Hoosier X

    Comparing Obama to Neville Chamberlain is the stupidest thing since the last time a conservative made an equally stupid analogy involving Hitler-era personalities.

    I think the last one was the homophobic fundamentalist cafeteria christians comparing themselves to Anne Frank.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Same for the Palestinians – who, yes, are also human and have had the shitty end of the stick for a long time – by their own choice in refusing to accept the basic humanity and human rights of the Israelis. Making peace there is too hard. Its been tried too many times without success because the hatred and cycle of violence and polarisation is too strong and has poisoned too many too thoroughly. Hell you can scent that sour, bitter stench of detestation and mutual torment across the pale blue globe in every sodding internet discussion as soon as Israel’s name comes up.

    There are certain relevant facts about Israel’s occupation policies that you totally ignore, every single time the subject comes up. None of it is classified, and your consistent willful ignorance proves you’re no less a bigot than the white South Africans who supported the Apartheid regime.

  • StevoR

    Education. Toxic cultures and millions of hate filled furious minds need to change and recognise the humanity of the other side.

    Hands up all those who think that’s likely anytime soon? When Ayatollahs rule a theocratic and fucking Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad are effectively in charge (or at least have a veto and far too much influence) of the Palestinian camp?

    Israel has tried giving up land for peace, (*Ahem*, Sinai peninsula, Gaza anyone? Oslo accords and their subsequent collapse into another intifada war of Arafat’s choosing ring any bells) its tried talks, its constantly been turned down no matter what its offered and cannot realistically offer more. When have the Palestinians (or Iranians for that matter) come up with a halfway reasonable peace plan or shown a willingness to make any painful concessions that put them within a realistic grasp of peace and their own state eh -and stuck by that? Specific dates and actual reasonable acceptable proposals please.

    (I really didn’t want to go here yet afucken ‘gen but y’know what, fuckit, needs sayin!)

  • colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #30

    And they’re not creating any of the horrific chaos we’re seeing today. ISIL =/= Hezbollah, remember? Iran is Shiite, ISIL and al Qaeda are Sunni, remember?

    Totally inaccurate and incorrect. Without the support of Iran and Hizbollah, the Assad Government in Syria would have fallen a long time ago.

  • laurentweppe

    Please put yourself in an Israelis position.

    Easy: I liquidate all my assets and move back to Western Europe or Northern America (or perhaps New Zealand) before the nincompoops in charge finish implementing their moronic French Algeria 2.0 master plan.

    Which is exactly what the smart Israelis (or at least, the smart ones who also have the means to afford it) are doing right now.

  • colnago80

    Re laurentweppe @ #38

    Hey, how about Australia? Seriously, any Israeli contemplating relocating to Europe has rocks in his head. North America, Australia, or New Zealand, maybe yes.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Education. Toxic cultures and millions of hate filled furious minds need to change and recognise the humanity of the other side.

    Thanks, StevoR, you just described your own inability to think or speak responsibly about Mideast affairs.

    Israel has tried giving up land for peace, (*Ahem*, Sinai peninsula, Gaza anyone?…

    Um…Israel gave up the Sinai Peninsula, and got no trouble from Egypt after that. They did NOT give up Gaza, and are getting lots of trouble from there. So tell us again about how giving up land for peace has failed?

    It is interesting to note that the two people on this thread who oppose the nuclear (beginning of a) deal, and support attacking Iran instead, just happen to be the two most blatantly ignorant, bloodthirsty and unhinged commenters Ed still allows here. As usual, the people who advocate war most are the ones who understand the least. There’s no reason to pay any attention to their stupid ravings.

  • StevoR

    @ 35. Raging Bee : Oh yeah because the Palestinian Nelson Mandela would be .. well, who exactly?

    Who should Israel trust and can they actually deliver anything real?

    Esp. when Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad have the hold on their politics and culture that they currently do. Do you actually have the foggiest fucken notion who Hams , Islamic Jihad are and what they boast aboyut one day doing to the Israeli people? Truly?

    You keep ignoring that.

    You keep scapegoating Israel for doing what , well no, almost any other nation would be a fuck of a lot harsher and stronger inits responses than Israel has been! Imagine if Mexico was taken over by terrorists who declared war on the US and started firing rockets indiscriminately at its cities and celebrating every US fatality by dancing on the streets. By literally delighting in dipping their hands in the blood of their victims if they can. Imagine their whole religion was the total destruction of the US of A how do ya think the United States would respond? How many missiles do you think it would take?

    Basic human empathy.

    You lack it.

    What exactly more do you want Israel to do when its survival is potentially at stake? How fucking realistic or otherwise do you think what you are asking is were you where they are?!

    Hint : The isrealis are also humans and don’t see things like you do and if you put yourself in their place and know anything really about their history y’might understand why. (Jews : why does this shit keep happening to us!) Fucks sake. Why do I need to point this out to you? Are you truly this clueless and lacking in empathy?

    Another fucking whack of the cluebat t’ya – you don’;t get to demand another person or, hey, whole fucking country of millions of human individuals committ suicide even if you don’t seriously they will or that they’ll be murdered if they fear that they will be. However much you may your hate them and whatever evils you think they’ve done.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Seriously, any Israeli contemplating relocating to Europe has rocks in his head.

    That’s just more typical warmongering hysteria: we have to respect the Israelis’ concerns, except the for the Israelis who don’t agree with me.

  • Who Cares

    @colnago80(#4):

    You might want to take your own advice and you know learn a bit of history.

    Chamberlain was buying time. Great Britain during his tenure was not capable of taking on the revitalized German army.

    On his watch he started a massive re-alignment and modernization of the navy and air force.

    He was proven right regarding the army when the only reason the British Expeditionary Force wasn’t massacred at Dunkirk was due to the Germans taking a 3 day break to regroup. The only reason the Royal Air Force survived was that it’s commander refused to use traditional mass defenses and Hitler blowing his top that the Brits dared to bomb Berlin (a retaliatory strike for the Germans accidentally bombing London) then decreed that London was to be flattened instead of the RAF infrastructure being taken out.

    @colnago80(#14):

    Oh you mean the CIA, which together with the other 15 alphabet soup agency that make up the US intelligence community, put out a National Intelligence Estimate stating that Iran stopped their nuclear weapon program in 2003

    @colnago80(#26):

    Yup they carry out Allahs orders and one of those, enshrined in a fatwa nonetheless, states that there will be no development of nuclear weapons.

    Oh and then the interference thingie. You are just like the people in the state department that blew their top that Russia dared to make an agreement with a nation that the US didn’t recognize, how did Russia dare to do that without permission from the US.

    The one interfering in Syria was and is the US. The whole fracas there got started as the desertion of a portion of the army to their tribal lands. The US thought they could get rid of an Iranian ally on the cheap by turning this into a full blown insurrection and got Saudi Arabia on board (The natural antagonist of Iran in the area). All that Iran has had to do was tell the Hezbollah to support Syria to turn it into the current mess for the US. Also this is a double proxy war. The first one is between the US and Russia since Syria is the last Russian ally in the region and the US would love to get rid of the last vestiges of Russian power in the Middle East. The second is between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

    Lebanon. You know the place was a very good location to stay before the US and Israel decided that a stable society consisting of a mix of all the different ethnic groups in the area was intolerable. The end result was the Hezbollah taking over. Nice example of blow back.

    The Houthis in Yemen were not supported by Iran, as adjudicated by the different alphabet soup agencies, it’s just an excuse of why Saudi Arabia has the right to invade Yemen to place their strongman back on the throne.

    Trick question. Why hasn’t Saudi Arabia not been sanctioned seeing that what they are doing is exactly what the US has been accusing Russia of doing in the Ukraine. Also the blow back of this one is already starting with even the people originally supporting the Saudi offense turning against it. At least Iran hasn’t been asked by the Houthis to help them out.

  • colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #40

    What the naysayers are suggesting is that the current sanctions be tightened and enforcement increased. Just for the record, I have taken issue with Joshua Muravcik and John Bolton who are advocating military action. Apparently ole Bee wasn’t paying attention.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    You keep scapegoating Israel for doing what , well no, almost any other nation would be a fuck of a lot harsher and stronger inits responses than Israel has been!

    What does any of that have to do with the original question of our negotiations with Iran? Your comments get more incoherent and further from the original subject with each response, and it only proves you’re acting on pure hysterical bigotry and fearmongering. We’re having a grownup conversation, and you’re just throwing a tantrum. Go to bed, and stain your own sheets with your violent revenge fantasies, and let us keep our own tablecloths clean.

  • StevoR

    @ 40. Raging bee : Actually Israel did give up Gaza :

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

    After which the tiny Jewish nation as a token of Palestinian “gratitude” got Hamas in power there and indiscriminate rocket fire from that little piece of Islamist hell on Earth (Pre-Daesh / ISIS ISIS~stan really) pretty much ever since in response to that “wise” decision.

    Ya reckon they’ll be keen to make that mistake again anytime soon?

    (Pity Israel didn’t hand Gaza back to Egypt which ruled it from 1948-1967. Funny how Egypt and Jordan never allowed a Palestinian state but demand Israel do so ain’t it?)

    How many times do the Gazans have to turn down peace before you take their no to it as final?

  • StevoR

    @45. Raging Bee : Actually my fantasy is that one day the Arab side incl. the likes of Hamas recognises that Jewish human beings are human beings and behaves accordingly.

    What a pity that fantasy is so far fetched and unrealistic eh?

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Just for the record, I have taken issue with Joshua Muravcik and John Bolton who are advocating military action.

    So fucking what? “The record” shows you advocating nuclear attacks on Iran, pretending to represent the “true” interests of the Israeli people, and screaming about “Chamberlain” every time someone acts less bloodthirsty than you.

  • StevoR

    As for the peace deal with Iran, have you really failed to notice I actually support that? What exactly about my comments #3, 22 & #16 do you fail to comprehend?

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Actually Israel did give up Gaza

    No, they didn’t: the place is still under siege, and Israel controls all traffic in and out of it. Your refusal to admit such obvious and relevant facts only further proves what an uncaring self-important ignoramus you are.

  • Who Cares

    @StevoR:

    With regards to the Palestinians, every time they gave something Israel reneged on the deal, not the Palestinians. And then you wonder that they won’t make the first move.

    Also why should the people stuck in the largest Ghetto in the world be the ones that give out concessions that will reduce their living space even more or effectively start the ethnic cleansing of the Israeli occupied areas.

    Also Iran doesn’t want to wipe Israel from the face of the planet. That was an ‘accidental’ mistranslation done by MEMRI, a right wing Israeli non profit. What was said was that Israel in it’s current form shouldn’t exist.

    Oh and that education you might want to apply that to yourself. There is a reason that Jews are emigrating from Israel. Due to the toxicity of the culture. The rest of the world is a better place (even Russia with it’s pervasive anti-antisemitism) then the future envisioned by Bibi and the Jewish fundamentalists he relies on for support.

    Remember the Jews in France were insulted when Bibi said they should move to Israel.

  • Who Cares

    @StevoR(#45):

    The Palestinians have done so, we are currently waiting on the Israeli to reciprocate the gesture.

  • StevoR

    @30. Raging Bee :

    “Please put yourself in an Israelis position.” -StevoR

    Okay…imagining myself as an Israeli, I’d say that an unprovoked attack on a country much bigger than my own would be a bad idea in itself. And I’d further say that if the attack is for the purpose of destroying Iran’s physical ability to build nuclear bombs, then a) there isn’t a reasonable chance of it succeeding, since there may be facilities we might not have known about, or that our bombs missed or weren’t powerful enough to destroy; and b) if you bomb physical structures, the enemy can rebuild them, harder than before, and they WOULD rebuild them, since we’ve just given them more than enough excuse to do so by attacking them. Is there anything wrong with my imagining of how an Israeli would see this situation?

    No.

    If what you say is true and your premises are correct then your inference is valid and I actually agree with you here. Of course your idea of “unprovoked” may leave a bit to be desired.

    I don’t want Israel and Iran to go to war. I don’t want war full stop.

    But then I (& you and everyone else) don’t always get what we want or have any control over it.

    Its up to Iran, up to Israel, up to leaders we mostly have no say over at all and probably hate.

    Argue that Iran stop threatening Israel and behave reasonably respecting Israel’s humanity, sovereignty and, oh yeah, right to even fucken exist in peace and we have no issue. OTOH, Blame everything on democratic Israel and scapegoat it, letting totalitarian theocratic Iran’s hatred and bigotry and ambitions to dominate the whole region go unnoted then, yeah, you’re missing something you ought to see.

  • Nick Gotts

    For which we can thank the CIA and the Mossad who have assiduously ratfucked the Iranian nuclear weapons program (stuxnet anyone). – colnago80@14

    Stuxnet was discovered in 2010. You made your confident prediction at the start of 2014. Why don’t you at least have the honesty to face up to the fact that you were completely and absolutely wrong? Why should anyone believe a fuckwit like you any more than any of the “End Days” prophets whose prophecies have failed?

    This totally ignores the interference of Iran in Syria, Yemen, and Lebanon via their wholly owned subsidiaries – colnago80

    The usual barefaced lies from you. Neither the Assad regime, nor Hezbollah, nor the Houthis are anything like “wholly owned subsidiaries” of the Iranian regime.

    Basic human empathy.

    You lack it. – StevoR@41

    Projection: you have it in spades.

  • StevoR

    @ 51 & 52 : Who Cares : Citations badly needed – not just your say so or opinion.

    @ 50. Raging Bee : So, who rules and is currently governing Gaza? Oh yeah. Hamas. Just as the PA (aka Fatah) controls much of the West Bank. Your refusal to admit such obvious and relevant facts only further proves what an uncaring self-important ignoramus you are.

  • colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #50

    Israel controls all traffic in and out of it.

    Excuse me, Egypt also controls traffic in and out of the Gaza Strip through their border control point. Egypt has been a lot tougher on such traffic, banning it most of the time, because of the support that Hamas provides to terrorists in the Sinai Desert, who have killed hundreds of Egyptian soldiers, policemen, and civilians since their hero Morsi was ousted.

  • colnago80

    Re Nick Gotts @ #54

    Stuxnet is only an example of the type of ratfucking that the CIA and the Mossad have engaged in. Stuxnet alone set back that Iranian nuclear program several years. There are a lot of other actions that have been taken that are unknown to the general public.

  • StevoR

    @ Nick Gotts : You think I;m projecting eh?

    Care to show us a few examples of you taking Israel’s wishes and humanity seriously? Want to prove to us all here that *you* Nick “Judeaophobe” Gotts are capable of empathising with the victims of Hamas rocketfire and all the vilest most dehumanising hate speech from endless Arab dictators and Jihadists then go on, show us whenever you have ever taken their wishes and human rights include their right to live free and happy lives without worrying about being attacked and fired upon and blown up at everyand any minute seriously.

    I don’t think you can show that. I don’t think you can show any care or empathy for the Israeli side of this issue but do go ahead and try to prove me wrong if you can.

  • Who Cares

    @StevoR(#55):

    I’ll start providing citations if you start doing so for your assertions.

    But to show that I’m not full of shit here is a link to the dishonesty of MEMRI.

  • Who Cares

    @Nick Gotts(#54):

    you could argue that the Hezbollah is. They are technically a church militant with the Iranian clergy as the top tier of the organizational structure.

  • colnago80

    Re Who Cares @ #43

    Re fighting the 2nd World War is rather off the subject of this blog post. However, I will respond to Care’s analysis, which is nothing but a lame excuse for Chamberlain’s actions. I have discussed this on this blog and others several years ago but I don’t have time right now to respond. I will say that whatever Chamberlain’s position was in 1938, Germany made better used of the time between 1938 and the Summer of 1940 then Britain did.

  • colnago80

    Re Who Cares @ #60

    Link doesn’t work.

  • Who Cares

    hmm: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/14/post155

    colnago80(#61):

    Your assertion that Germany used the time better doesn’t matter. What matters is that Chamberlain recognized in 1938 that he needed to buy time for Great Britain since the British armed forces could not hope to win against Germany at that point.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    OTOH, Blame everything on democratic Israel and scapegoat it, letting totalitarian theocratic Iran’s hatred and bigotry and ambitions to dominate the whole region go unnoted then, yeah, you’re missing something you ought to see.

    NO ONE HERE is saying anything close to that, you lying asshole. There’s no point in arguing with someone who can’t even admit such basic and obvious facts as this. And calling Gotts a “Judeaophobe” only further proves you’re unfit to engage in grownup conversation. And you’re certainly in no position to expect anyone else to prove their compassion to you. Go stroke your swollen self-righteousness somewhere else.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    I don’t want Israel and Iran to go to war. I don’t want war full stop. But then I (& you and everyone else) don’t always get what we want or have any control over it.

    You pretend you don’t want war, but you keep on advocating it and blaming everyone else but yourself for your inability to stop oozing mindless hatred from every keystroke.

  • laurentweppe

    we have to respect the Israelis’ concerns, except the for the Israelis who don’t agree with me.

    There’s also the involuntarily hilarious “Israel is a Nation of intellectually superior thinkers, scholars, geeks and polymaths, except for the majority of actual israeli academics who either left the country or are trying to leave it: these ones are utter morons” trope which lies at the core of SLC’s worldview.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Re fighting the 2nd World War is rather off the subject of this blog post.

    Then why the fuck did YOU choose to mention Chamberlain in the first place? In comment #4 no less?

  • colnago80

    Re Who Cares @ #63

    The fact is that the German armed forces were not in a condition to go to war in the Spring of 1938 either, especially against both

    Britain and France. The Panzer divisions and the Luftwaffe barely existed at the time. In addition, the Czech armed forces, which were fully mechanized with superior tanks then either Germany, Britain, or France had, had far better defensive ground to fight on then did Poland, were more capable then the Polish forces which were completely unmechanized, and depended on horsed cavalry for mobility. Britain and France would have been better off fighting Germany on the side of Czechoslovakia in 1938 then they were fighting Germany on the side of Poland in 1939. Members of the German General Staff were aware of this, considered Hister to be a dangerous opportunist and were planning a coup to remove him from office. Of course, once Chamberlain capitulated at Munich, those plans died aborning.

    In addition, in selling Czechoslovakia down the river, Chamberlain handed the Skoda works, the most modern munition factories in

    Europe over to Germany without the latter having to fire a shot. A sizable portion of the German armored forces that won the Battle of France in 1940 were captured from the Czechs after Germany took over the rest of the country or were manufactured in the Skoda works, or were based on Czech designs.

    I will respond to the reasons for the loss of the battle of France in the spring of 1940 in a later comment.

  • Crip Dyke, Right Reverend Feminist FuckToy of Death & Her Handmaiden

    For which we can thank the CIA and the Mossad who have assiduously ratfucked the Iranian nuclear weapons program (stuxnet anyone). Unfortunately, ratfucking only postpones the inevitable.

    So…

    it was definitely going to happen, everybody get ready for the end times?

    Or, it was definitely going to happen unless we pay a couple hundred thousand dollars to some hackers to write a computer virus?

    Maybe you could let us know when your serious predictions of absolute certainty are not, in fact, serious predictions of absolute certainty but predictions of maybe-sort-of-I-guess-if-we-don’t-spend-a-entirely-negligible-percentage-of-our-gdp.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    I will respond to the reasons for the loss of the battle of France in the spring of 1940 in a later comment.

    Wow, a whole SERIES of in-depth history lectures from the guy who can’t even get Hitler’s name straight. What a fucking joke.

  • colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #70

    Of course I can get Schicklgruber’s name straight!

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    Thanks for proving my point, genie-ass.

  • colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #72

    I can’t help it if we don’t know who Frankenberger’s paternal grandfather was.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    You CAN help it if you’re unclear on how people get their legal names.

  • colnago80

    As promised, a brief dissertation on why the Battle of France was lost.

    The British and France high command assumed that the Germans’ would repeat the Schlieffen Plan of 1914 which was bolstered by capture of a downed German aircraft which contained the plans for the 1940 offensive which, indeed, was the Schlieffen Plan. However, the Germans found out about the intelligence coup and considered what other options were available. There were 3, the Schlieffen Plan, an offensive via the Ardennes toward Sedan, or an attack on the Maginot Line. The proposed Schlieffen Plan was compromised as it was in the hands of the enemy. An attack on the Maginot Line was thought to be too risky as it would lead to massive casualties in the German forces. That left the Ardennes. The French High command thought that the terrain there was impassible for tanks and so left weak 2nd rate units to guard the crossings of the Meuse at Sedan. However, unfortunately for them, the Germans had their tank expert, General Gudarian, conduct an inspection tour of the region and he reported that the roads through the area were passable by heavy armored units. Turned out that Gudarian was right and the French “experts” were wrong. The spearheads of the German advance got through the Ardennes, crossed the Meuse at Sedan, brushed aside the French defenses, and proceeded to advance Westward.

    Meanwhile, the armored units of the Anglo/French forces had advanced into Belgium in anticipation of the Schlieffen Plan, which forces had their lines of communication cut off by the German advance from Sedan and thus had no option but to retreat on Dunkirk.

    Now the issue of the halt ordered for the German advance. There were actually 2 such orders, one in response to an attack on the German flank by a unit led by Charles DeGaulle, which caused Hister/Frankenberger/Schicklgruber/Heidler/Hitler to panic and order a 24 hour delay to allow infantry units to catch up with the Panzers. It was totally unnecessary as DeGaulle’s attack wasn’t much more then a pin prick which the Germans easily beat off. Had this halt not occurred, there is a good chance that the German spearheads would have beaten the Anglo/French forces to Dunkirk and prevented their extraction. They could have bagged the lot. There was a further delay after the Anglo/French forces occupied Dunkirk when Hister again ordered that the Germans delay a ground attack for 48 hours to allow the infantry to catch up. He then decided to leave the cleanup to the Luftwaffe, which failed.

  • EnlightenmentLiberal

    StevoR @ 41, 46, etc.

    Hey fuckwit, you’re still ignoring illegal Israeli settlements which have absolutely nothing to do with the defense against aggression by Israel. And the completely miserable treatments of Arabs in Jeruseleum and other Israeli cities where their houses are being systematically destroyed and relocated elsewhere.

    PS: If you think I’m solely blaming Israel for the problems with Palestine, take your head out of your ass.

  • http://motherwell.livejournal.com/ Raging Bee

    And that totally unnecessary history lesson is relevant to the US-Iran negotiations…how?

  • laurentweppe

    Hey fuckwit, you’re still ignoring illegal Israeli settlements which have absolutely nothing to do with the defense against aggression by Israel

    Well, technically, settlements are a defense against aggression: by giving subsidized homes and jobs to a fraction of the jewish plebs, the ashkenazi upper-class divides the hoi polloi and preserves itself from a generalized plebeian uprising.

  • colnago80

    Re Raging Bee @ #77

    I was responding to Who Cares @ #43. He started the discussion.

    Re EnlightenmentLiberal @ #76

    Gee, miserable treatment of Arabs in Jerusalem. Not.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/In-major-victory-to-Arab-residents-2200-homes-approved-in-east-Jerusalem-395731

  • felidae

    StevoR:

    What everybody leaves out of the equation is the 200 to 400 nuclear weapons possessed by the Israelis–nobody knows for sure because they are not signatories to the Non-Proliferation Treaty– which means they are hardly impotent in light of their deterrent and retaliatory capability. Bibi wants the US to take out the Iranians just like we took out Saddam so we can bear the consequences while he reaps the benefits. I’m sorry but I can’t support the Israelis dictating our foreign policy

  • colnago80

    Re felidea @ #80

    Actually, Bibi was not the Prime Minister during our Iraq adventure. In fact, when Colin Powell and his aide, Lawrence Wilkerson were sent to Israel to brief then Prime Minister Sharon before the invasion, Sharon informed them that, in his opinion, the proposed invasion was a bad idea. Removal of Saddam and disarming the Iraqi military would benefit only Iran, leaving them as the top dog in the area. Thus, he advised against it as he considered Iraq to be a counterweight against Iran. His advice was ignored as Cheney and Dubya were gung ho in favor and were not in a mood to take advice. This is recounted in Wilkerson’s book.

  • colnago80

    In news related to the subject of this blog post, an obviously leaked report is circulating relative to the enhancement of bunker buster bombs by the US military. This can be seen as a message to Iran that their underground nuclear weapons sites are not bombproof.

    http://goo.gl/NZqM4h

  • StevoR

    @80. Felidae : ” Bibi wants the US to take out the Iranians just like we took out Saddam so we can bear the consequences while he reaps the benefits. “

    You know this how? Your mind-reading skills or opinion or have you got any actual extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claims there?

    @76. EnlightenmentLiberal : PS: If you think I’m solely blaming Israel for the problems with Palestine, take your head out of your ass.”

    My head has never been up my arse and all I see you do apart from name-call especially in your comment there is blame Israel. Go figure.

    The settlements wouldn’t be there if the Palestinians had agreed to a peaceful settlement long ago – they’ve turned down so very many of those going all the way back to before they even had that name. (1948 for instance -they could’ve had so much more than just Jordan which was already two-thirds the original land. Look also at what they’ve turned down since.)

    @65. Raging Bee : “You pretend you don’t want war, but you keep on advocating it and blaming everyone else but yourself for your inability to stop oozing mindless hatred from every keystroke.”

    Eyeroll & Brahma facepalming with every arm. Really dude? What part of my comments do you fail to understand? No, no, I get it, every fucken last word! I know you are blinded by your own self-evident hatred of me but please do try to comprehend basic english. When I say I don’t want war with Iran (or anywhere) I mean it and I have not here advocated for war at all nor is is it what I want.