Palin’s Drought Solution: Build More Reservoirs!

What do subscribers to Sarah Palin TV get for their $9.99 a month? Brilliant policy analysis, of course. And the solution to our most pressing problems, like California’s ongoing drought. Don’t limit the use of water, she says, all you gotta do is build more reservoirs!

California has been suffering from a long-term drought; most people are aware of that. Governor Brown’s answer, though, to that drought is to impose a 25% water reduction on California’s cities and towns. His main target are [sic] those really nice landscapes and lawns on golf courses and campuses and cemeteries and private property, your yards! Well, as long as those, long showers that maybe you take. [sic]

She’s got a point, of course. It’s just like that liberal Gov. Moonbeam to cave in at the first sign of reality, like Neville Chamberlain did to Adolf Hitler. He obviously doesn’t believe in American exceptionalism, which exempts the United States from the laws of physics because we’re a Christian nation, dontchaknow. I mean, who in their right mind would think that conserving water would help when there isn’t enough water to go around? It’s madness! Besides, she has the real solution:

You might ask, though, why don’t they just fix the infrastructure problem, why don’t they just build more reservoirs and plants?

Exactly! Reservoirs are filled with water, so just build more reservoirs! You secular progressives just fiddle while California is drying up and all you had to do was ask this hockey mom and she could have fixed it for you in an instant. But no, you’re too busy burning American flags and having icky gay sex with Saul Alinsky!

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  • addiepray

    And build more snowpack while we’re at it.

  • Hercules Grytpype-Thynne

    I’m not as concerned about the icky gay sex as I am about the icky necrophilic sex. But perhaps that’s just me.

  • theDukedog7 .

    Palin is such a fool.

    Who would think that a water shortage would have anything to do with environmentalists blocking every water project for the past 50 years!

    It’s like blocking electrical plants for a half century, and then wondering why your lights don’t go on.

  • John Pieret

    “why don’t they just build more reservoirs and plants?”

    **Head desk**

    And she could have been a heartbeat away from being President …

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    Not only reservoirs, but “plants.” I’m assuming that she means plants that make water, not the kind that need watering (a dangerous assumption, I know.) She did blather on, ignorantly, about having all that ocean, perhaps she meant desalination plants. While we probably do need desalination plants, they use a lot of energy, something else that is at a premium in California. Some combination of wave/solar generation of electricity and desalination might work.

    As the British are wont to say, she’s thick as a brick. Perhaps we can get her to water her yard with salt water, just to prove to us that we really don’t have a problem.

  • Larry

    ***slaps forehead***

    Of course! Why didn’t we think of that?

  • D. C. Sessions

    And build more snowpack while we’re at it.

    Arizona’s White Mountain Apache tribe has that one covered — their ski area has snowmaking equipment.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    My plan is even simpler. Hers requires Big Construction, which in California would inevitable require Big Unions and Big Government. Mine only needs people to, voluntarily and without Big Government coercion, water their lawns all day all the time and leave the taps open in their kitchens and bathrooms. If they use more water it will replenish the land far more quickly than building reservoirs full of water (plus, “reservoir” is a French word. In America? I don’t think so!).

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @theDukeDog7

    First, please identify those blocked projects by name. Then we can discuss how implementing any of those water projects would solve the issue that the snow pack is less than 5% of what it runs as an average, or address the issues that the population of California has grown dramatically in the last 50 years. Or address the fact that, at least in SoCal, this is a desert and green lawns, etc. are a really bad idea.

    No rush, I’m happy to wait for your answers until you’ve addressed all of the other questions in all of the other comment threads that you’ve been ignoring.

  • theDukedog7 .

    Must be global warming–weather is gettin’ pissed off at California. The water shortage obviously has nothing to do with enviro loons who have opposed every water project in recent memory.

    Time to do something rational, California-style: sacrifice babies to Gaia. They’re already doing a ton of abortions in California, so just toss the little not-persons in a volcano instead of a dumpster. Oughta’ soothe Gaia.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    And also I’m not with theDukedog7, who said what Palin said with different words (but an equal amount of content).

  • theDukedog7 .

    @ArtK:

    How about this, artie. You tell me which water projects the tree-huggers have championed. It’ll be a shorter list.

  • D. C. Sessions

    ArtK, you’re obviously just not on the same intellectual plane as our Rover. Just as with oil shortages, the obvious solution is drilling more wells to increase production. (I’m really surprised that Gvro [1] Palin didn’t simply advise “Drill, Baby, Drill!”)

    [1] “Governor” with half of the letters removed.

  • Evan Brehm

    “Time to do something rational, California-style: sacrifice babies to Gaia. They’re already doing a ton of abortions in California, so just toss the little not-persons in a volcano instead of a dumpster. Oughta’ soothe Gaia.”

    What the fuck? No, seriously, what the fuck? How do these things have anything the fuck to do with California’s drought?

  • Scientismist

    You might ask, though, why don’t they just fix the infrastructure problem, why don’t they just build more reservoirs and plants?

    Good point about infrastructure. We just had new gutters installed (got a good deal since it’s the off-season), and we’re building the foundations for the water storage barrels next weekend. We planted the front yard to drought-tolerant succulents, so I guess that must be what she means by plants. Or does she mean we should let our fresh rainwater all run off into the ocean, and then build desalinization plants (running on coal and oil-fired power plants, of course) to get it back? Hmm.. Which one profits the local economy, and which helps the rich get richer?

  • raven

    Raven’s solution.

    Could all you refugees go back to your flyover states!!! With central heating and 6 layers of clothes you can survive those winters. Well most of you anyway.

    California doesn’t have a water problem. It has 15 million too many people!!!

    (This is snarky humor. I’m not a native either.)

    There really are too many people here though at 38 million and going up. Seems like every drop of rain has three people claiming it.

  • daved

    How do these things have anything the fuck to do with California’s drought?

    There you go, demanding relevant comment, you libtard! Don’t you realize that Egnor is kind of an inverse Renaissance man, who can drag ignorance, irrelevancies, and stupidity into any discussion? Show some respect.

  • theDukedog7 .

    @14:

    [What the fuck? No, seriously, what the fuck? How do these things have anything the fuck to do with California’s drought?]

    Greenies, baby, greenies.

    Greenie yesterday: “I’ll sue you if you try to build that reservoir/dam/irrigation-canal/whatever.”

    Greenie today: “Where’s my water! I want it now!!”

    Pehaps if the Greenie had sacrificed to Gaia, this water shortage never woulda’ happened.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @theDukeDog7

    You made the initial claim, you get to back it up. Or we will assume that you have no evidence.

    And don’t call me Shirley.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    ArtK, give up now. TheDukedog7 is right. California wouldn’t be in a drought if it saved more of the water it doesn’t have.

  • raven

    They are going to build more water storage.

    But it will help a little and that is all. There are many very large reservoirs in California. Most of them are almost empty. A lot of SoCal water comes from the Colorado. Lake Mead is at a record low and the Colorado has only rarely reached the sea in 60 years.

    Desalinization will help but only a little. San Diego just spent $1 billion on a plant. It supplies expensive water to 7% of their total needs. They would need $14 billion to supply all their water this way and some sort of huge power plant to run them. And that water would be 2-4 times as expensive as now.

    There really aren’t any easy solutions. Just a lot of tradeoffs and shared costs and losses.

  • Trebuchet

    @TheDukeDog7: Most folks here, including me, believe you are Dr. Michael Egnor. Would you be willing to confirm or deny that? If you are not, in fact, Dr. Egnor, it’s a bit unfair to let everyone here continue making fun of him. And if you are, what’s the harm in admitting it?

  • John Pieret

    “Where’s my water! I want it now!!”

    Actally, that sounds like the good Republican farmers of the Central Valley who use some 85% of California’s water.

  • addiepray

    In a drought, by definition, we have way more reservoir space than we need. What we lack is the fluid to put in them.

    It’s like saying the snowpack in the mountains is desperately low, therefore we need more mountains.

  • zoboz

    By the same reasoning, if I’m running short of cash, I should just open up more bank accounts. Problem solved!

  • Hoosier X

    It’s clear that Sarah Palin is dukedog’s favorite great conservative thinker.

    And if she doesn’t name a single water project that was blocked by environmentalists, how do you expect dukedog to know any?

  • Akira MacKenzie

    Even Brehm @ 14

    It’s a typical right-wing boilerplate mashup: environmentalists “worship” the Earth and liberals perform abortions as some sacrament or just for kicks. All it needs is references to “international communism” and “welfare queens” and the crazy will be complete.

  • Hoosier X

    Don’t forget “legislating from the bench,” “feminazi” and “cultural Marxism.”

  • theDukedog7 .

    [If you are not, in fact, Dr. Egnor, it’s a bit unfair to let everyone here continue making fun of him.]

    This “egnor” sounds like a real butt-wipe, and you guys are sure kickin’ his ass. Keep givin’ him hell.

  • theDukedog7 .

    @26:

    [she doesn’t name a single water project that was blocked by environmentalists]

    Palin’s such a fundie psycho.

    Everybody knows that greenies have been champions of public works projects to build reservoirs and dams. That’s been like a main thing for enviros, aside from huggin’ trees.

    It was the Republicans who kept trying to stop water projects to save some stupid little fish.

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    As I said before, give up now. TheDukedog7 is right. California wouldn’t be in a drought if you hippies hadn’t preventing it from building more empty reservoirs. Next you people are going to stop California from building more water to fill them! Will you ever learn?

  • colnago80

    Hey, if Israel can do it, we can do it.

    http://www.haaretz.com/life/nature-environment/1.596270

  • colnago80
  • busterggi

    I don’t see how there could be any shortage of water anywhere – why it comes in bottles at every convenience & grocery store.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @Modus #20

    I know. It’s hopeless trying to pit my feeble brain against his towering intellect. Neurosurgeon, historian, politician, expert on water conservation, the list is endless. I’m sure that he can cook a mean bouillabaisse and write beautiful poetry, too.

    I wonder why he bothers here, though. We’re clearly not intelligent enough to recognize his manifest superiority and just accept what he says. We’re just so audacious in our ignorance to ask for evidence of his claims.

  • Glenn E Ross

    It didn’t take long for the current troll to become yawn-inducing boring and excruciatingly tedious. I like a good argument, I wish he could find one.

  • zenlike

    I see Dukie keeps the lie going. As stated previously, he once claimed to be Egnor. Now he pretends he doesn’t know the name.

    It’s such a stupid lie that it’s quite strange Dukie chooses to die on that particular hill.

  • theDukedog7 .

    Modus has a point. What’s the sense of building reservoirs? Billions of gallons of freshwater in California that runs into the ocean each year because of greenie litigation wouldn’t be of any help anyway.

    http://www.valuesandcapitalism.com/how-environmentalists-worsened-californias-drought/

    That’s not nearly enough water to even keep the meth labs in Hollywood running.

  • Hoosier X

    So … we still don’t have the name of a single water project blocked by environmentalists.

    Great conservatives thinkers don’t need no stinkin’ examples that support their assertions.

  • colnago80

    Re Hoosier X @ #39

    So far, Schmucknor hasn’t supplied a shred of evidence that climate change is wrong, evolution is wrong, or that greatly reducing the use of DDT has caused 50 million deaths in Africa so expecting him to provide evidence of water projects blocked by environmentalists is a forlorn hope.

  • theDukedog7 .

    What’s really annoying is when I was drivin’ through L.A. a few weeks ago and I saw a Delta Smelt watering his lawn!

  • Knight in Sour Armor

    Better solution: stop trying to live in the desert, a place that we are poorly equipped to live in at that population density.

  • Hoosier X

    So … still no name of a water conservation project blocked by environmentalists.

  • theDukedog7 .

    [So … we still don’t have the name of a single water project blocked by environmentalists.]

    Actually, if you look up ‘environmentalist” in the dictionary, it says:

    noun: tree-hugger who habitually blocks water projects in California and who never takes responsibility for consequences.

    A true fact.

  • Hoosier X

    So … still no name of a water project blocked by environmentalists.

  • http://timgueguen.blogspot.com timgueguen

    Regarding Zoboz’s comment, do US banks still give you stuff for starting an account? The old cliché was that they’d give you a toaster.

    As for our trollish friend all his comments do is push up the hit count for Ed’s posts, leading to a bigger presence for Ed in the search engine rankings. I’m sure Ed likes that.

  • D. C. Sessions

    Not the worst Modus imitation ever, but don’t quit your day job (always assuming, of course.)

  • Hoosier X

    If a water project is ever actually named then we can discuss whether it was actually blocked by environmentalists and then we can discuss whether the project would have actually helped in this drought.

    But until the smallest amount of good faith is shown, a lot of us here aren’t really interested in delving any further.

  • regexp

    At least she didn’t mention shipping water from Oregon like some have suggested (build a pipe!). And she (kindof) has a point about environmentalists. California needs a diverse set of power and water sources. That will need to include desalination and nuclear plants which are a non-starter for most environmental groups. The new San Diego desalination plant spent almost a decade in litigation before finally being built (and not a moment too soon). But that is only one part of the equation. Conservation, forcing farmers to use more efficient irrigation methods, etc all need to be discussed. But Palin is hardly a big picture sort of person. Or little picture. Or really anything.

  • dingojack

    timgueguen – we could pitch in for a toaster — for Lil Dookie‘s bath time…

    Dingo

  • ianken

    For where I live this is actually a good idea. We had decent rain over the winter, but little snow pack.

    But that violates your narrative that any idea that someone you think is stupid might support is stupid by association.

    Don’t dislocate you shoulder patting yourself on the back.

  • Trebuchet

    This “egnor” sounds like a real butt-wipe, and you guys are sure kickin’ his ass. Keep givin’ him hell.

    Nice non-answer. Pretty much as expected. Perhaps I’ll try to contact him directly.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @ianken

    I don’t know where you live, but more reservoirs in California would not solve the problem. Not one bit. We have lots and lots of reservoirs, most of which are nearly empty. We need something to fill them. Rain would help, but the reality is that the bulk of the water that doesn’t come from the Colorado river comes from the melting snow pack.

    I don’t think that Palin’s ideas are stupid because she’s stupid. They’re stupid because they don’t actually solve anything; they’re simplistic statements which ignore the reality of the situation. Which goes to reinforce the idea that she is stupid. Otherwise, the “violates your narrative” was a neat little straw man. Thanks for playing. Do try harder next time.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    This “egnor” sounds like a real butt-wipe, and you guys are sure kickin’ his ass.

    If the shoe fits…

  • Anri

    theDukedog7 @ 30:

    Everybody knows that greenies have been champions of public works projects to build reservoirs and dams. That’s been like a main thing for enviros, aside from huggin’ trees.

    And those damn greenies have been saying that global climate change would make California’s water problem more severe! If they hadn’t been right about that… I mean wrong about that…

    I mean… um…

    LOOK OVER THERE: BENGHAZI!

  • sundoga

    To be fair (though I really don’t want to be) if Palin meant Desalination Plants, those could actually be of some use. It would raise the cost of water by a noticeable amount, though.

  • raven

    ianken is dumb. He probably considers Sarah Palin to be smart. Which puts him below my cat.

    For where I live this is actually a good idea. We had decent rain over the winter, but little snow pack.

    Which is totally irrelevant. We are talking about California.

    But that violates your narrative that any idea that someone you think is stupid might support is stupid by association.

    Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn every once in a while.

    BTW, the idea of reservoirs for water storage are 5,000 to 10,000 years old. You don’t have to be very smart to figure that out. This isn’t rocket science. It isn’t some new brilliant idea. In fact, California, the west US, and the rest of the USA have water storage reservoirs just about everywhere.

    Don’t dislocate you shoulder patting yourself on the back.

    Don’t try to think. You don’t even know what thought is.

  • raven

    California Proposition 1, Water Bond (2014) – Ballotpedia

    ballotpedia .org/California_Proposition_1,_Water_Bond_(2014)

    Apr 30, 2015 – California Proposition 1, the Water Bond (Assembly Bill 1471), was on the … $2.7 billion for water storage projects, dams and reservoirs. …..

    1. The idea of storing water isn’t exactly new. Which is why California has dams and reservoirs everywhere .

    2. California gets a lot of its water from the largest reservoir in the USA, Lake Mead.

    3. Last year, the new water infrastructure bill passed by voters and Jerry Brown allocated $2.7 billion in new water storage projects. Last I heard, they were having trouble figuring out what water is already not being stored.

    4. Palin could have learned this in 10 seconds which is what it took me, using Google. But while blind squirrels find an acorn now and then, apparently they can’t find a search engine.

  • raven

    http://www. sacbee.com/opinion/op-ed/soapbox/article12778412.html

    Shaping water storage expansion in California

    ▪ New storage is often quite expensive.

    At most, California could potentially use 6 million acre-feet in combined additional surface and groundwater storage – about a third more capacity than Shasta Reservoir, which would increase state water supplies by less than 5 percent. There is insufficient water in California to fill larger capacities reliably. This limitation would tighten with a drier climate and could loosen somewhat with wetter and more variable stream flows from the loss of snowpack with a warmer climate.

    Under no circumstances can new water storage capacity alone solve most of California’s water problems.

    While new storage can increase reliable supplies for farms and cities and provide flows at the right time and place for fish and wildlife, the total benefits do not necessarily exceed the substantial costs.

    This is a recent study from UC Davis by civil engineers.

    which would increase state water supplies by less than 5 percent.

    At most there is only 5% of water that is left to store at probably high cost.

  • StevoR

    Public Service Anouncement : For those precious few who don’t already know, this ‘Dukedog7 .’ fool is a vile homophobic racist, bigoted Kreationist Global Overheating denying Repugliklan troll who has been stinking up a lot of threads here lately.

    As #22 Trebuchet noted, this troll is thought to be and has at one stage apparently admitted to being Dr Egnor a Z-ist vaguely famous~ish creationist blogger and, more scarily for his patients, neurosurgeon. That or some wanker trying to impersonate him for reasons unknown.

  • deepak shetty

    Atleast she didnt ask us to drill some more and use oil instead of water.

  • StevoR

    @2.Hercules Grytpype-Thynne : “I’m not as concerned about the icky gay sex as I am about the icky necrophilic sex. But perhaps that’s just me.”

    Saul Alinsky is dead?

    (Checks relevant wikipedia page.) Oh yeah, well dead, died June 12th 1972. Probably wouldn’t even be a skeleton by now. Did not know that. Something new learnt from this thread already.

    Also in this context and at another slight tangent – Greg Laden has a good blog post on the continuing trend of record high temperatures across the world esp. the US of A here :

    http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2015/07/01/global-warming-is-heating-up/

    So its not just California as almost all of us already know. (We’ve had record low rainfall this month here in South Oz too or so I gather. Sources : News / radio /personal talks.)

  • StevoR

    PS. Hey DogShit, I see you still haven’t answered and keep boldly running away from the questions asked of you here :

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2015/06/27/chief-justice-roberts-dissent/#comment-434877

    Just wondering but do you realise how bad you make your own supposed causes and beliefs look by you associating your hateful shit and drivel and cowardly, pathetic dodgy as fuck conduct with them?

  • http://en.uncyclopedia.co/wiki/User:Modusoperandi Modusoperandi

    raven “At most there is only 5% of water that is left to store at probably high cost.”

    I’m willing to let you pay any amount for me to not cut nut production at my Job Creating farm. Think of the job losses and devastated Tax Base that would result! Sure, I could switch to a less water intensive produce, but that would be less profitable, so ignore this and focus on that middle sentence.

  • sabrekgb

    @60 StevoR

    Kreationist … Repugliklan

    Why do you do this? Childishly change the words, i mean. I know you’re not the only one, not by far, but i’m genuinely curious why people do this and figured i’d ask.

    When you’re arguing with someone or trying to make a point, don’t you think that doing this detracts from it?

  • mudskipper

    I listened to an interesting radio show recently about Arizona’s water problems. One thing that was mentioned is that Lake Powell (Glen Canyon Dam) actually makes their water problems worse. Apparently, the ground the dam is built on is porous and water seeps away—if I remember right, something like 6% of the Colorado’s flow is lost to seepage at Lake Powell. So reservoirs don’t always work…

  • Michael Heath

    sundoga writes:

    To be fair (though I really don’t want to be) if Palin meant Desalination Plants, those could actually be of some use. It would raise the cost price of water by a noticeable amount, though.[Heath did the strike through and added ‘price’.]

    Water from desalination plants has a higher price relative to other current sources of water. However prices of some goods can be well under their total cost. In this case water sourced from CA aquifers; another example would be coal-generated electricity which is priced at about 1/3 of its actual cost when considering those costs taxpayers and others pay. That’s based on a study I read several years ago, I’m not sure what the current ratio is. I do know that study appeared to greatly underestimate the cost of global warming.

    External costs are exceptionally prevalent when some business sectors can influence public policy, e.g., Central Valley farmers, coal producers, the oil industry, sugar producers and once upon a time, the tobacco industry.

  • mudskipper

    Now that I think of it, the other thing that was mentioned is that the laws regarding water rights are one of the biggest causes of water shortage in Arizona. For example, water rights are granted on the basis of seniority, but on a use-it-or-lose-it basis. So farmers/ranchers use ALL their allotment, whether they need it or not, causing enormous wastage.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @sabrekgb

    Dr. Egnor/Egnorance/theDukeDog7 has spewed his garbage across many blogs. Go back and read Respectful Insolence for just starters or a dozen or so posts on this blogs. He’s consistently made easily disprovable claims, or claims without evidence and then run away or done the Gish Gallop in response.

    In other words, he’s long past the point of being addressed at all respectfully.

    If you have something of substance to contribute to this thread, great. Otherwise, take your tone-trolling and go away.

  • StevoR

    @65. sabrekgb : Well in part because our troll has a thing for doing it himself e.g. with his refusal to spell the Democratic party properly with those last few letters. It is designed to piss him off and make him think – probably a lost cause for the latter case I suspect.

    Also in part cathartic and expressing my feelings about the groups in question particularly indicating how the Republican party has shifted away from being what it once was into a much uglier and more extreme group. Its away fo communicating the strength of my feelings about what they’ve become and where they are going and that they aren’t what they should – in my view – be. I guess its also a particular stylistic ..idiom? (To refer to Monty Python.)

    When you’re arguing with someone or trying to make a point, don’t you think that doing this detracts from it?

    Perhaps sometimes. Perhaps not. I think it depends on the specifics, context and circumstances of the case and place of argument. On this blog, this does seem as noted to be a fairly common practice.

    I could be wrong (wouldn’t be first or last time) and if asked nicely by people (particularly alot of peopel or teh blog owner) in good faith arguments I would drop the practice. With a troll like DukeDog tho’, I don’t think such good faith exists and since he seems to be out to anger and annoy us, it seems fair to reciprocate that against him a bit.

    I hope that helps explain it for you.

  • StevoR

    Argh! The typos! thetypos. Oh well y’all get the gist I hope. Wish we coudl edit for them. Yes, iknow we have preview and all but I never seem to see them in time there. Mea culpa. For clarity fixes :

    It is a way of communicating the strength of my feelings ..

    (Particularly a lot of people or the blog owner)

  • sabrekgb

    @69 ArtK

    It’s not tone-trolling, and i think you’re missing the point. I don’t give a shit about dukeDog, or what he does or doesn’t deserve. It’s also, to my knowledge, not standard practice to change your spelling of words in childish ways based on the deserving-ness of the subject or recipient.

    @StevoR

    I can understand the wanting to piss him off part. The others…not so much. I mean, i can understand the sentiment of wanting to express distaste for an organization, or your feelings on what one has become, but, i dunno…

    I suppose this is just one man’s opinion, but I see, usually, the changing of words in that way as juvenile tactics. I see a strong correlation between that sort of “name calling” (not that some names aren’t deserved) and lack of substantive argument. Not to say it’s always the case, but it has that sort of feel. It’s kinda like the Oathkeepers…nothing they say on paper sounds bad, but their implementation is facile and wrong. Especially when you’re doing it against someone like dukeDog, it just seems like something “they” do. And especially when it’s not directly relevant to the conversation, but more of a throwaway addition (as above with Creationist…what is added by making it a K instead of a C? It’s not like you don’t know the right spelling, and if you’re trying to insinuate something…racism, maybe?…then just say it, explicitly). Arguing at the same level, sorta. I dislike it, and need to think more on precisely why.

    Call it a data point, but I would suggest you minimize doing so, since I think it detracts from what you say. I think it detracts from what anyone who does it says, regardless of their stance on an issue. God knows you and I wouldn’t agree on everything, but there you go.

    ex: “The racist policies advocated by the Republican leadership” versus “The Rethuglicans!”

    Meh…

    No, it’s not substantive for this thread, but it’s something worth talking about in any case.

  • sundiver

    Yo, pukedog (aka egnor, lying asshole, moron). Ya build more reservoirs, ya get more empty reservoirs ya dumbfuck. The problem is that the water aint falling out of the sky like it used to. I bet they have to put instructions on toilet paper for ya.

  • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=153100784 Michael Brew

    Conserve water?! What, like from the toilet? Just get Brawndo, the Thirst Mutilator! It’s got the electrolytes plants crave!!!

  • Al Dente

    sabrekgb @72

    Thank you for your illuminating thoughts on how uncouth the rest of us are. I know that I, for one, have benefited from your patronizing condescension. Hallelujah, I have seen the light. I now know that tone-trolling while claiming not to be tone-trolling, combined with a supercilious air, is the only way to bring the barbaric horde to stop their barbaric behavior.

  • thebookofdave

    What are electrolytes? Do you even know?

  • sigurd jorsalfar

    Shorter ianken – I don’t understand California’s problem. There’s plenty of water where I live.

  • https://plus.google.com/107095827599382907783 NS Alito

    @66 mudskipper

    One thing that was mentioned is that Lake Powell (Glen Canyon Dam) actually makes their water problems worse. Apparently, the ground the dam is built on is porous and water seeps away—if I remember right, something like 6% of the Colorado’s flow is lost to seepage at Lake Powell.

    Not to mention that reservoirs in arid regions are just glorified evaporation ponds. IIRC, Austin reservoir Lake Travis loses 6-7 feet over the central Texas summer. Aquifer recharge injection projects (which don’t work if the aquifer rock has collapsed from overdraw) don’t have this problem, but they also lack the political/budgetary support of the land developers who just luuuv them some new lakefront property.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    sabrekgb @72

    Coming into a discussion thread and criticizing how people are saying things rather than what they are actually saying is the very definition of tone trolling; that includes criticizing things like deliberate misspellings and nicknames. You may not think of yourself that way, but that’s exactly what you’re doing. You sound like a tone troll, you are a tone troll.

    You are free to consider what we do to be juvenile. For me, at least, I use those things as deliberate rhetorical points. In other words, your condescension is misplaced. As my replies to you have shown, I’m quite capable of expressing myself without them, when they aren’t necessary. What’s juvenile is whining about how the adults in the room are expressing themselves.

    One of the reasons that we are all contemptuous of theDukeDog7 is that he hasn’t contributed anything to the discussion other than throwing the blame on “greenies” or “enviro loons.” That and tossing in some casual global warming denialism (something he’s expressed quite strongly elsewhere.) This is a stance that is as mind-numbingly stupid and simplistic as Sarah Palin’s.

    Now, do you have anything to actually contribute to the discussion? Any thoughts on how California can deal with a very real crisis? How can we balance the needs of agriculture and rapidly growing urban areas in the face of a quickly diminishing resource? Any thoughts about Sarah Palin and how completely disconnected from reality she is? Any responses to theDukeDog7, either in support or opposition?

    No?

    Then you’re a tone troll. Sorry to burst your bubble.

  • gadfly47

    Palin is on to something. We can also fix a gas shortage by building more gas stations. And if there is ever a famine we can fix that by building more grocery stores. How did this lady not get elected president?

  • dingojack

    Does anyone have Sarah’s number? I’m sure Our Fearless Leader, Tony “The Infrastructure PM” Abbott would be spell-bound (or it might be just be the star-bursts).

    The solution to any drought is simply to fill the red centre with dams. Voila! Instant water resources. Brilliant! Is Sarah a sooper genius or what?

    Dingo

  • sabrekgb

    @Al

    I’m commenting on a very specific thing, not saying everyone who does it is uncouth. If any patronizing condescension of mine has helped you, then I am glad. Unwad your undergarments.

    @ArtK

    Maybe i am tone trolling. I still don’t think so, but i could of course be mistaken. I’m not saying that being a dick right back to dukeDog and exposing his hypocracy and general wrongheadedness isn’t a good thing. I’m not complaining on the tone it’s being done in…just pointing out that tactics that seem childish might detract from “how the adults in the room are expressing themselves”. I think it’s a subtle distinction, but there nonetheless. Maybe i’m wrong and it’s just a pet peeve of mine. *shrug*

    As for the drought in CA…it’s worth pointing out that this problem, like so very many others, could be solved by a solution to cheap energy. If we solve that problem, we solve many others by proxy. My suggestion: build some modern (ie, not 50s technology) nuclear reactors and put more money into fusion. Yes, i know, it’s been 5 years away for a half century now…but still. And I think some of the regulatory hurdles to new nuclear are in need of removal/reform.

    Also, people need to quit moving to Cali. I don’t get it. It’s not even really the west coast [1].

    1. Obergefell v. Hodges (2015), (J. Scalia, dissenting)

  • anthrosciguy

    Maybe I should set up a Kickstarter to fund my building a “water plant”. If I could only get Palin’s subscribers list I’d make a fortune.

  • llyris

    For the complaints about tone trolls; sometimes the frustration of attempting reason with someone is so intense that all you really want to say is “Shut up you stupid moron. You aren’t interested in discussion or solutions, all you ever do is whine about the strawmen you made up. If you were on fire I wouldn’t even cross the road to toast marshmallows at your burning form, even though you’re much brighter now than when you were pretending to use your brain.” Misspelling Republican is pretty mild really.

  • llyris

    More on topic: as an Australian I am bamboozled by the lack of restrictions and sensible policy. Last drought we had “target 155” encouraging residents to reduce usage to 155 Litres per day. Yes, that’s litres not gallons. Watering gardens was allowed 2 hours a day, 3 days a week. A lot of houses have rain water tanks or grey water systems for the garden as these aren’t restricted. Every house was sent an egg timer for the shower, four minutes. Water efficient shower heads were offered to all households. Drought tolerant plants and mulch are used in public spaces and encouraged for homes. All new toilets are required to have a half flush (this might be a toilet design thing too). Older toilets usually have a couple of bricks in the cistern. Lawns die off every summer. Education campaigns about small measures you can take every day, like turning off the tap when brushing teeth. Water bills have a graph with household water use and how many people would have to be living there to hit the target.

    These are just every day life habits, they’re really easy. I’m just not convinced that too many people is California’s problem either.

  • http://polrant@blogspot.com democommie

    “It’s like blocking electrical plants for a half century, and then wondering why”

    Actually, it’s a bit more like being a resident of Cluelessfuckville (population: you) and wondering why people laugh at you.

    “It’s not tone-trolling,”

    Bullshit.

    ” and i think you’re missing the point. I don’t give a shit about dukeDog, or what he does or doesn’t deserve. It’s also, to my knowledge, not standard practice to change your spelling of words in childish ways based on the deserving-ness of the subject or recipient.”

    Go fuck yourself, gunzloon.

  • sabrekgb

    Oh, look, it’s democommie! Here to toss off insults during his brief internet time, and then dash off into the night again, until another thread needs his substance-less posts.

    I’d rather be tone-trollin’ than democommie trollin’.

    If you wanna talk about guns, i’m down, but that’s a tenuous connection to the thread, even for me.

  • sabrekgb

    @84 Ilyris

    That’s kinda what i’m saying though… If that’s what you want to say, then say it. That would be so much better than things like democommie’s childish (from other threads) “AmeriKKKan”. This is why i don’t think i’m tone trolling…i think the tone is fine, just the mechanics are crappy. Let’s be honest, this is much closer to grammar nazi than tone troll.

    Is it still tone trolling if I think you should just say “Shut up you stupid moron. You aren’t interested in discussion or solutions, all you ever do is whine about the strawmen you made up. If you were on fire I wouldn’t even cross the road to toast marshmallows at your burning form, even though you’re much brighter now than when you were pretending to use your brain.” instead of You’re a “Kreationist…Republiklan”?

    Anyway…kinda sorry for the tangent, but only a little bit, because i think i had a legit point to make. If others don’t agree, fair enough.

  • llyris

    @ 88 sabrekgb

    I understand wanting people to just say what they mean. “Honesty is always the best policy” as my school principal used to say. It really is annoying when people just expect you to know what they mean when they say something completely different.

    However, some people might consider outright calling someone a mindless moron …. impolite? Most of us still have our mother’s voice in our heads telling us not to be so rude.

  • Al Dente

    Look, sabrekgb, you’ve made your point. You are aghast that some people use spellings you don’t like. Big fat fucking deal. If you don’t like it here you can leave. Your choice. However if you stay and continue tone trolling, don’t be surprised if you get called on it. We’re not impressed by tone trolls. And yes, asshole, you’re a tone troll.

  • sabrekgb

    @89 Ilyris

    However, some people might consider outright calling someone a mindless moron …. impolite?

    Indeed…but less impolite than doing the same thing by insinuation with things like “Republiklan”?

    This isn’t a big point, i’m just bringing it up because I wanted to know and thought maybe others had similar thoughts.

    @90 Al Dente

    You still haven’t unwadded the undergarment, i see. You’ll notice i didn’t start off with a shitty attitude towards you, you came with that all on your own. I’m glad you got my point. Nope, not a big deal. Eat a dick, and carry on.

    *shrug*

  • http://itsmyworldcanthasnotyours.blogspot.com WMDKitty — Survivor

    Okay, build more reservoirs. Sure.

    Just wondering what Mrs. Palin thinks we’re going to fill them with — the water isn’t going to just fall out of the sky!

    …okay, so, some of it will literally fall out of the sky, but you know what I mean!

  • zenlike

    llyris says

    These are just every day life habits, they’re really easy. I’m just not convinced that too many people is California’s problem either.

    You might be right. The issue is people going to live in an arid region, and expecting a lifestyle better suited to a moderate clime, with bright green lawns and plants that needs constant water.

    And then there are of course the ultra-capitalist a-holes.

  • StevoR

    @91. sabrekgb :

    @89 Ilyris : “However, some people might consider outright calling someone a mindless moron …. impolite?”/i> (1)

    Indeed…but less impolite than doing the same thing by insinuation with things like “Republiklan”? (2)

    (Numbers added for clarity.)

    To me (1) is ruder than (2) because you are addressing the individual directly rudely rather than referring to the abstract political party / philosphy / ideology – i.e. attacking an individual vs attacking an idea or collective group. I.e its less personal and more political versus vice-versa.

    Since you’ve mentioned ‘grammar nazi’ I might also point out that ‘ mindless moron” is almost tautologous as well as ableist language with potential “splash damage” in the social justice /pharyngulite use of the term. It is not because Republicans or trolls like dukedog7 are stupid that I want them to stop and “shut up” but because they are deliberately hateful bigots.

    I’ll also note your italicised formulation in #88 is much longer and I think I’m already wordy enough as well as it having a different meaning to the shorter snarky “Repugliklan” which more concisely conveys that I think the Republicans are / have become repugnant and influenced by klan like ideology and people. Of course this could at a very long stretch be taken to insulting pugs as in the dog breed but hopefully not and clear enough given the context!

  • sqlrob

    @StevoR: You missed the homophobia with the “eat a dick” comment.

    @sabrekgb: So you go to name calling, exactly what you claimed you didn’t like. How the hell do you think you’re not a tone troll? You obviously didn’t believe what you spouted since you broke your own rules, many times.

  • http://artk.typepad.com ArtK

    @sabrekgb

    My suggestion: build some modern (ie, not 50s technology) nuclear reactors and put more money into fusion. Yes, i know, it’s been 5 years away for a half century now…but still. And I think some of the regulatory hurdles to new nuclear are in need of removal/reform.

    Since you dislike the use of colorful nicknames to emphasize opinions, I’ll be direct in respect for your wishes. That suggestion is just as glib, simplistic and generally stupid as Ms. Palin’s. It has the very slight advantage of being factually correct. That doesn’t make it useful. “More rain would help California” is also factually correct but entirely useless. A pony and $10,000,000US would make me very happy; while that’s true, it’s about as likely to happen in the next few years as your recommendation.

    We have an immediate crisis. Not one that can wait 10, 20 or 50 years. Nuclear power is a bigger hot-button issue than water rights are. Even if we could get past the political issues, nuclear power isn’t terribly cheap. While it saves on fossil fuels and gets us past peak oil, there are a lot of infrastructure costs involved. See Michael Heath’s point above about external costs.

    So, any other suggestions, or should we just go back to spying on our neighbors hoping to report them for violating water restrictions?

    Online debating advice: If you’re going to insist that others take the high road, then you have to travel that same road yourself. Otherwise you risk being called out as a hypocrite. Lead by example.

    @llyris

    The short answer is “politics.’ For a brief introduction, see Roman Polanski’s Chinatown, which is about Los Angeles’ appropriation of the water in the Owens river valley. While urban centers like Los Angeles and San Francisco are powerful politically, agriculture is even more powerful. California provides a huge percentage of the produce consumed in the US. Moves that increase costs for farmers, like mandating better water management could have very bad effects on the California economy. We also have politically connected companies like Nestle who bottle our water, paying nearly nothing for it and sell it to the rest of the world. They’ve been doing this without a permit for years; I don’t know where the legal process is right now, but my prediction is that the state will just issue a new license and hope that everyone forgets the issue.

    Southern California (particularly Los Angeles) is a desert; it meets the climatologist’s criteria for one. The yearly average rainfall (14 inches) is only slightly more than that of Alice Springs (11 inches). Now compare the population of the Los Angeles metroplex (18 million) with that of Alice Springs (25,000.) The only reason we have so many people here is water brought in from very far away, either Lake Mead via the Colorado River or Mono Lake via the California Aqueduct. Each of those is several hundred miles away from Los Angeles. Cheap water built this place; cutting back too hard could result in bad things too. Especially bad for the economically disadvantaged. See what’s happening with access to water in Detroit.

    The political issues can show up locally as well as state-wide. I live in a townhome complex and there was a rebellion recently where some residents tried to cram the HOA board and fire the property manager. Their main complaint? The lawns are turning brown and they wanted the property manager to water them anyway, despite the $500 per day per sprinkler fines. Magnify that attitude by millions and you see what kind of problem we’re facing.

    All of this is why the glib assertions of Ms. Palin, sabrekgb, ianken and theDukeDog7 are particularly galling. Like telling poor people that all they need to do is to get a job, these “suggestions” completely ignore reality. For those of us who live this reality, it’s painful.

  • sabrekgb

    @94 StevoR

    The italicised portion was a direct quote from Ilyris @84 (because I was directly responding to hir). I think it’s a stretch to call his words ableist, but it doesn’t really matter in any case for this discussion. I see your point about the difference between 1 and 2, in the sense of directly addressing someone versus addressing a more amorphous collective/philosophy/etc. Despite being called a tone troll, i’m not actually concerned about people being rude, so I would say that, ruder or not, 1 is better because you are focusing your attack to the intended target. Going the 2 route, you get splash damage (ie, people who might actually agree with you on whatever is being argued but self identify with one or more of the groups you’re painting with a broad brush). This might come down to mostly a personal (and professional) preference for precision weapons, versus less discriminate ones. Metaphorically speaking and otherwise.

    I also would prefer hateful bigots shut up (but not by forcing them to do so or heckler’s vetoing them…) , I just think that using childish means to fight them (verbally) reduces our argument. I acknowledge that this is personal opinion and may just be a matter of preference.

    @95 sqlrob

    Pretty sure me telling someone to “eat a dick” isn’t homophobic. If it is, i may be willing to reconsider my usage of it, as i have with other words from time to time.

    Also, I never said i didn’t like name-calling. Name call all you want. My point is much slimmer and a tiny bit more nuanced than that. If you’re going to name call, I just said that doing it in a childishly-change-the-spelling-of-a-common-word was…lame. That’s it. Agree with me or don’t. I just wanted to toss that out there. It’s not a rule, and i haven’t laid out any rules that i’ve broken. The only thing i’ve actually been against in this thread is that one specific thing, and i’ll challenge you to quote me doing it.

    @96 ArtK

    I take issue with glib, but it’s certainly not a helpful response to solve the instant problem, you’re right. Lumping me in with Palin, though…ouch. Not fair either, because as you just said, at least i was factually accurate.

    We’ll leave the tangent about nuclear power for another time, but suffice to say that I think it’s a desirable and useful method of generation that has been crippled by politics.

    High road (ha, i don’t think i’ve ever suggested the high road…just not changing word spellings, and answering specific questions/substantive points when posed) notwithstanding, I don’t have much disagreement here. The things suggested for the immediate future (reduce use, raising price, work for future solutions) are what I think the proximal answer is. This was a very foreseeable problem, and i think only people who are not paying attention are actually surprised. It may be glib to say that it should have been avoided, since we knew it was coming, but it’s not wrong. I also know humanity doesn’t often work that way. Certainly not modern America. People in that area are simply going to have to get used to using less water.

    For the future: considering that it seems So-CA is already using almost all of it’s freshwater runoff, there seems to be only one legitimate solution; seawater. So-CA doesn’t have a water problem (it’s a coastal state, after all), it has a fresh water problem. It seems to me that the long term solution for it will involve the use of seawater. I don’t know how, specifically, and i’m sure that it will be more expensive than previous ways of doing things, but i’d put money on some sort of desalinating technology. This, of course, directly leads to another problem…energy.

    And round and round it goes. Living in a resource scarce world kinda sucks.

  • StevoR

    @sqlrob : “@StevoR: You missed the homophobia with the “eat a dick” comment.”

    Yes, I had missed that and yes sabrekgb that is homophobic and also childish and lame.

  • lpetrich

    I concede that I agree with Sarah Palin on something: building desalination facilities.

    However, she neglects some important solutions, like making farm irrigation more efficient and encouraging xeriscaping — dry-climate landscaping.