Rottenness to Apprehension?

June 27, 2012 By 12 Comments

I have a genuine question (and this is a genuine question):

Does the Bible’s “explicit gospel” demand that humans acknowledge how rotten they are before they will truly apprehend how glorious Christ is?

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  • http://stephenmurray.co.za/ Stephenjmurray

    Funny you ask that question. I was reading Acts 17 this morning trying to wrap my head around the way Paul addresses pagans in the ancient cosmopolitan city of Athens. It rather jumped out at me that he explicitly says to all in attendance that “now he commands all people everywhere to repent”. It seems to me that he couldn’t really be more universal than that. Now in my mind repenting suggests that whether you call it being “rotten” or sinful or idolatrous or whatever it is – it needs to be acknowledged. An increased understanding of need is always going to increase delight in, or appreciation of, the provision.

    • jwillitts

      To you point, Luke 7:36-50. Jesus used the at story of debt forgiveness to illustrate the point that those who understand the extent of forgiveness have a greater depth of love for Jesus. But was that a prerequisite for relationship with him?

      Also, it is interesting that while Paul does call them to repent (returning to their Creator-king in my view), his point was not to convince them that they should feel the weight of this ignorance. But now in view of the resurrected Jesus they need to return to the Creator or they will face judgment. This is quite different then to say Paul was attempting to convince them of their depravity.

      • Tom

        No, but his polemic against idols there does seem intended to convince them that there is something worth repenting of.

      • Craig Beard

        You make a good point here, Joel. Some post-biblical repentance language focuses on ‘turning from’ our personal rottenness to the exclusion of — or at least the minimization of — ‘turning to’ (or, in your words “returning to”) God. Jesus message to the people of God in his day (the Jews) was to return to God, which figured into God’s larger plan for all humanity to return to him.

      • http://www.linkedin.com/in/kosseyjohna John Andrew Kossey

        Joel,

        Does Paul (or any other NT writer) describe human *depravity* (rottenness)?

        Is any alternative explanation more coherent?

        By noting wrath-worthy human acts, does the NT provide a narrative of God’s provision in Christ for divine liberation–and forgiveness–from sin’s enslavement over humanity?

        Paul recognized that “in-Adam” humans remain enslaved to tyrannical, quasi-personal powers of sin, death, and other evil principalities (e.g., Rom 6:16).

        The Lord Jesus Christ ” . . ‘gave up his very life for our sins’ so that he might snatch us out of the grasp of the present evil age, thus acting in accordance with the intention of God our Father” (Gal 1:4 Anchor Bible).

        What occurs in this gracious, unconditioned divine rescue, reconciliation, and forgiveness is a radical, even apocalyptic, change of allegiance that is impossible for humans to effect.

        Depravity is conceptually absent, by and large, from some segments of historic Christianity such as Eastern Orthodox. Does calling human beings totally depraved–rotten–reflect historically conditioned dogma more than the revelation of Scripture?

        Please forgive me if I have moved too far from addressing your basic question and concern.

        –John

      • http://www.gurrydesign.com/ Peter G.

        Joel, Luke 7 made me think of Matt 18:21ff where there’s another (causal?) connection between the horizontal sense of our own need and the vertical sense of our treatment of others.

      • http://stephenmurray.co.za/ Stephenjmurray

        I’m not sure I’m trying to say that Paul was attempting to convince them of their depravity. I am saying that it would be kind of strange to talk about repentance if there’s not at least some basic understanding that something in us is wrong and needs to be repented of. Coming to terms with “rottenness” is a life long experience (as others have mentioned above). But in saying that I do think that our embracing of the gospel has to have some sort of acknowledgement in us that things are not right.

  • http://twitter.com/jakebelder Jake Belder

    I’m not sure we can fully grasp either how rotten we are or how glorious Christ is. Those two understandings deepen as we grow in maturity. However, I do think that an awareness of our sinfulness is necessary. I have been meeting with a couple who are exploring Christianity, and they have both said that they didn’t understand the significance of Jesus until they understood what made them ‘bad’ – ie., their rebellion against God. They understood ‘good’ and ‘bad’ in purely human terms previously, and so couldn’t understand why they couldn’t be saved since they didn’t murder or steal or things like that. But they’ve come to a point now where they understand that good and bad are measured by God’s standards, and that by those standards, they are in need of a Saviour.

  • Mike McKinniss

    In my experience, few people need help realizing their lives are not all they would hope they would be. Or, at least, they don’t need much help realizing the world at large is in great need of a redemptive mission.

    I do not wish to discount the need for the Creator to deal with the sinfulness of humanity. Creation could not be redeemed without such an effort. Still, I fear that we run the risk of distorting the grand scope of the Gospel when we concentrate wholly on an individual’s sin and the individual’s need for rescue.

    The Gospel is far greater than the individual, just as the effects of sin have been far greater than the corruption of individual people.

  • http://www.linkedin.com/in/kosseyjohna John Andrew Kossey

    Joel,

    I suggest that the in-Adam “before-state” typically lacks access to truth that the Spirit brings collectively and personally.

    “Genesis of faith” in humans depends upon the Spirit’s free and unbounded actions in moving humans to initial openness to the Gospel. (I credit Najeeb Awad, who studied under Colin Gunton, with introducing me to “genesis of faith” in relation to 1 Cor 12:3).

    Before gaining “the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord” (Phil 3:8), old “ego” undergoes co-crucifixion with Christ as a divine act (Gal 2:19).

    Faithing-into-Christ, being made-alive-in-Christ inaugurate the miracle of mind renewal (Rom 12:2; Phil 2:5), and thinking with sober judgment (Rom 12:5). Clarity of self-assessment is difficult, if not completely impossible, without the intervention of the Spirit.

    Retrospectively, one can recognize defects, dysfunctional thinking, and even “how rotten we were” in Adam when we walk in newness of life through the freedom, leadership and transformation of the Holy Spirit (Rom 8:2; 2 Cor 3:18; Gal 5;25).

    Being lavished in the love of God in Christ through the Spirit’s agency also contributes to retrospective comprehension of the former in-Adam condition of being ungodly, sinners, even enemies of God (Rom 5:5-11).

    –John

  • Peter G.

    Douglas Campbell has sparked the same question in my mind. I think my answer is no, but only because it can work the other direction, not because the two can be separated. No need is truly understood apart from its remedy and vice versa. But it is important to say just as quickly that no one is saved from their rottenness by their capacity to apprehend Christ’s gloriousness. I expect our capacity to appreciate Christ will grow on into eternity in which case, our sense of need and our sense of Christ’s provision will grow together forever.

  • TR

    I agree with those emphasizing “both-and.” This is why, by the way, I think both the “plight-to-solution” and “solution-to-plight” understandings of Paul’s thinking have attracted scholars – both ring true to the Christian’s experience. We come to Christ in recognition of our plight, find in him our solution, and in recognition of the radical nature of the solution (the death of the Son of God on a cross), we grasp ever more deeply the radical nature of our plight.

    Perhaps this is a bit like Calvin’s classic paradox about knowledge of God and self:
    “Our wisdom, in so far as it ought to be deemed true and solid Wisdom, consists almost entirely of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves. But as these are connected together by many ties, it is not easy to determine which of the two precedes and gives birth to the other.”