Left Behind With Obama

The more I think about the fact that so many blogs and web sites are speculating about Barack Obama being the antichrist, the more annoyed and puzzled I get. I once used to be part of this apocalyptic-oriented Evangelicalism, until actually reading the Book of Revelation and paying attention to the details persuaded me that the whole approach was misguided.

Just think about the following implications, two of which are ridiculous and one of which, though plausible, is unlikely to be given the consideration it is due by Christians of the rapture-oriented sort:

1) Many web sites are pointing out that Obama’s mother is white, and connecting this with the “white horse” in Revelation. The irony is that this suggests that the Book of Revelation overlooks the thing that might actually identify Obama (his father is black) and instead mentions the thing he has in common with every U.S. president so far.

2) If Obama is the antichrist, then presumably that means he will become president. And so the irony is that presumably at least some of the people who think he could be the antichrist will have to vote for him in order for prophecy to be fulfilled. So this could be a great campaign strategy to use among those who in their ignorance of the Bible think the Book of Revelation is primarily about our time or our future: Vote for the Antichrist and play your part in bringing the rapture closer! Also ironic is that most of the rest of us would be happy to be left behind with Obama…

3) Finally, the one place where there actually is some degree of resemblance between the modern U.S. and the Book of Revelation is that the beast’s kingdom, referred to as Babylon the harlot, does sound like America a bit. A country that has become rich and oppressed others, lived in luxury while others starved? That sure sounds like the U.S., but here too there is an irony. Most of the rapture-oriented Christians have not only misunderstood the Bible’s teaching about the end of the world, but also about social justice, and so they tend to vote for presidents and representatives that perpetuate just this sort of policy. And so perhaps the biggest irony is that the person some of them are currently speculating might be the antichrist represents concerns that might make our country resemble less the kingdom of the antichrist.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/00276860017599044287 Cobalt

    Harr. Love it.It’s encouraging how many people on the little Oklahoma forum are expressing horror at their fellow posters’ bizarre and semi-coherent rantings, but I’m always surprised by just how many of the ranters are really out there. Even my time at the GOPUSA forums didn’t really prepare me for that particular sort.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/08014885672703727636 Ken Brown

    Finally, the one place where there actually is some degree of resemblance between the modern U.S. and the Book of Revelation is that the beast’s kingdom, referred to as Babylon the harlot, does sound like America a bit.Heh, I’m thinking that’s because modern America is more like ancient Rome than any society since…

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/10326403777027937887 Doug Chaplin

    “Vote for the Antichrist and play your part in bringing the rapture closer! “Talk about hoist with their own petard. Wonderful.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03541821479915378677 Bible Prophecy on the Web

    Identities of the Beast and the False Prophet are not yet KnownEnd-time prophecy is confronted with THREE separate and unique evil entities (Re.16:13 below), the dragon/Satan, the beast of Revelation 13:1, and the beast of Revelation 13:11.The fourth beast/king of Daniel chapter 7 is seen in the book of Revelation as the beast of Revelation 13:1. He is a man/king and has the number 666 (Re.13:18).At Revelation 13:1 we are seeing the fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 “rise up out of the sea” (Dan.7:3), “out of the earth” (Dan.7:17), out of the bottomless pit (Re.9:1-2).The beast of Revelation 13:11 is seen in the book of Daniel as the “another” “little horn/king” (Dan.7:20, Dan.7:24, Dan.7:25, Dan.8:9, Dan.8:11, Dan.8:23-25, Dan.11:36-38). He is the false prophet (Re.16:13 below, Re.19:20). He is a man/king. He will not regard the God of his fathers (Dan.11:37). After the fourth beast/king (Dan.7:7), seen in the book of Revelation as the beast of Revelation 13:1, comes upon the world scene, “another” beast/king comes up “out of the earth” (Re.13:11, Re.11:7), as did the first four beasts/kings (Dan.7:3, Dan.7:17). Once the little horn/king of Daniel, the “another” beast of Revelation 13:11, sits in the temple of God (2 Thess.2:4), he is seen as the scarlet colored beast of Revelation chapter 17, who has ascended out of the bottomless pit (Re.17:8).The beasts/kings of Daniel chapter 7/Revelation chapter 13 ALL come out of the bottomless pit. Their identities will not be known until they ascend out from the bottomless pit at the Fifth Trumpet, the First WOE (Re.9:1-2, 12).The beast (Re.13:1) and the beast/false prophet (Re.13:11) will come against those blessed who come to the 1335 days (Dan.12:12) prior to the Seventh TRUMPET (1 Thess.4:16-17)The spiritual opening of the bottomless pit is in the Dead Sea, as it will be in the new earth (Re.21:1, Re.21:8, Re.22:15, Isa.66:24).Satan gives these beasts/kings their power (Re.13:2, Re.13:12).Re.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the DRAGON (Re.12:9, Re.20:2, Re.9:11), and out of the mouth of the BEAST (Re.13:1-8), and out of the mouth of the FALSE PROPHET (Re.13:11-17).Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the WebAuthor of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/13599662252662686373 BSM

    I love point number #2. If he is the anti-Christ all those evangelical voters should rally and get him elected! Let’s get this Rapture going already!Faux news had a clip of one of their news casters suggesting that when Obama did the fist bump to his wife it was some sort of Muslim terrorist gang sign! I kid you not! Catch John Stewart in re-run today and you’ll see it. Sometimes these people make my teeth hurt.

  • Anonymous

    FYIhttp://barackobamaantichrist.blogspot.com That site is satire making fun of Christians.http://obamamessiah.blogspot.com/Satire making fun of Obama..

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/12337652985240550352 David Henson

    Someone should tally up the number of antichrists there have been in the past two decades. We’ve got Bill Gates (& computers in general); the Pope, of course; the United Nations, etc.Any more out there?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03541821479915378677 Bible Prophecy on the Web

    ALL individuals/persons who deny that Jesus is the Christ, who deny the Father and the Son are anti- Christ. (1 Jn.2:18, 1 Jn.2:22, 1 Jn.4:3, 2 Jn.1:7 below).1 Jn.2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there MANY antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.1 Jn.2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.1 Jn.4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.2 Jn.1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the WebAuthor of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    There are two ways to approach this: (1) Obama is a Christian. ERGO he is not an anti-Christ.(2) Revelation 17 says that the rulers the book’s symbolism to refer to were past and present, with one more still to come. Five have fallen, one now is – that and the calculation of 666 leads naturally to Nero. Nero is not Obama. ERGO Obama is not the antichrist.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03541821479915378677 Bible Prophecy on the Web

    The Eighth of the Seven -To understand who the “other is not yet come” and “he is the eighth, and is of the seven” of Revelation 17:10-11 (below), we need to know that end-time prophecy is confronted with three separate and unique evil entities (Re.16:13 below). There is the dragon/Satan, the beast of Revelation 13:1, and the beast of Revelation 13:11.Re.16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon (Re.12:9, Re.20:2, Re.9:11), and out of the mouth of the beast (Re.13:1-8), and out of the mouth of the false prophet (Re.13:11-17).Re.17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must CONTINUE a short space (Re.13:5 below).Re.17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition (Re.17:8).Re.13:5 And there was given unto him (Re.13:1) a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to CONTINUE forty and two months (1260 days/3 ½ years). It is the beast of Revelation 13:1 who is “TO CONTINUE” (Re.13:5 below) along WITH the beast of Revelation 13:11 for an ADDITIONAL three and one-half years, a short space (Re.17:10 above).The beast of Revelation 13:1 is the “other who is not yet come, and the beast of Revelation 13:11 is “the eighth, who is of the seven” (Re.17:10-11 above).The beast of Revelation 13:1 is seen in the book of Daniel chapter 7 as the fourth beast/king. He is a man/king and has the number 666 (Re.13:18). At Revelation 13:1 we are witnessing the fourth beast of Daniel chapter 7 “rise up out of the sea” (Dan.7:3), “out of the earth” (Dan.7:17), out of the bottomless pit (Re.9:1-2, Re.17:8), hell.The beast of Revelation 13:11 is seen in the book of Daniel as the “another” “little horn/king” (Dan.7:20, Dan.7:24, Dan.7:25, Dan.8:9, Dan.8:11, Dan.8:23-25, Dan.11:36-38). He is the false prophet (Re.16:13 below, Re.19:20). He is a man/king; he will not regard the God of his fathers (Dan.11:37).AFTER the fourth beast/king (Dan.7:7), seen in the book of Revelation as the beast of Revelation 13:1, comes upon the world scene, “another” beast/king comes up “out of the earth” (Re.13:11, Re.11:7), as did the first four beasts/kings (Dan.7:3, Dan.7:17). He is the false prophet. Once the little horn/king of Daniel, the “another” beast of Revelation 13:11, sits in the temple of God showing himself that he is God (2 Thess.2:4), he is seen as the scarlet colored beast of Revelation chapter 17, who has ascended out of the bottomless pit (Re.17:8 below).The beasts/kings of Daniel/Revelation ALL come out of the bottomless pit. Their identities will not be known until they ascend out of the bottomless pit at the Fifth Trumpet, the First Woe (Re.9:1-2, Re.9:12).The spiritual opening of the bottomless pit (Re.9:1-2, Isa.38:18, Ps.28:1) is in the Dead Sea upon this earth in the Spiritual realm. The Dead Sea is outside of Jerusalem, and will be outside of that great city, the holy Jerusalem (Re.21:10) in the new earth. In the new earth there is no more sea (Re.21:1). In the new earth, all those who have transgressed against God can be looked upon (Isa.66:24, Re.14:10).Satan gives these beasts/kings their power (Re.13:2, Re.13:12).Patricia (ndbpsa ©) Bible Prophecy on the WebAuthor of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/12337652985240550352 David Henson

    I’ve never seen anyone copyright a comment on a blog. That’s amazing.Also, I appreciate all the references, though, since I haven’t been able to understand Revelation all that well since last year, when I lost my decoder ring I had found in my box of Apocalypse-Os.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    This is the irony of pretribulational dispensationalist interpretation. You take something obvious, like 5 have fallen and one now is, which makes clear that the beast is a reference to rulers in a kingdom that exists then. But rather than take the text at face value, and acknowledge that the most natural interpretation is that the reference is to the author’s and readers’ present and near future, you instead posit a leap across 2,000 years in time which is nowhere hinted at in the text. The final step is to then posit that there will be a new Roman Empire and a rebuilt temple, just to get things back the way they were in the author’s time, so that the reference can be future.A person will interpret the text in this rather bizarre way, as I used to, and then tell you they don’t interpret the Bible at all, they simply read it…

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03541821479915378677 Bible Prophecy on the Web

    ALL the time frames of the books of Daniel and Revelations will occur at the time of the end (Dan.8:17, Dan.11:35, Dan.12:4, Hab.2:3 below), with a literal day interpretation, at an appointed time (Dan.8:26, Dan.10:14 below). The vision is for many days, and the vision of the evening and the morning is true (Dan.8:26 below). Many shall run to and fro through the Bible, and knowledge of the Bible will be increased (Dan.12:4, Jn.16:13, Jn.17:17 below) as the church begins to understand the scripture of truth/little book message of the books of Daniel and Revelation (Dan.10:21, Re.10:10 below). The book of Daniel gives the same Bible prophecy message as the book of Revelation. The book of Revelation cannot be understood without understanding the book of Daniel. These two books of the Bible fit like a hand in a glove.Dan.8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision (Dan.10:14, Hab.2:3 below).Dan.11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed (Dan.8:17 above, Hab.2:3, Dan.12:4 below). Dan.12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book (Dan.10:21, Re.10:10 below), even to the time of the end (Dan.8:17 , Hab.2:3 , Dan.11:35 ): many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.Hab.2:3 For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. Dan.8:26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true (Jn.16:13, Jn.17:17 below): wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many DAYS (Dan.10:14 below).Dan.10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days (Dan.8:26 above). Jn.16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.Jn.17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.Dan.10:21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and [there is] none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.Re.10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel’s hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the WebAuthor of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    But Revelation 22:10 says the words shouldn’t be sealed up because the time is near. But of course, once again you’ll ignore the plain meaning of the text, perhaps even bringing in 2 Peter (a very late author who was himself trying to deal with the problem of the non-fulfillment of these early expectations of the nearness of the end). But every feature in Revelation points to it having to do with the time it was written and the near future.I have no doubt that you can find ways of making the text appear to say what you think it should. But I’d recommend instead reading the text and taking seriously the possibility that it means what it says, even when what it says is incorrect.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/12337652985240550352 David Henson

    Everyone is aware, right, that dispensationalist theology such as this was an invention of Darby in the late 19th century, early 20th century. It’s a good thing he came along. How in the world did Christianity survive so many centuries without these kinds of profound and cryptic insights. Oh yeah, that’s right. Maybe they just focused on the life of Jesus. Call me crazy.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath
  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/17530084607709529569 John

    Bullcrap, even the Devil is a believer.Obama is not the antichrist, but he may be the buffoon that paves th3e way for the one world leader.This man does not have what it takes~!!

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03541821479915378677 Bible Prophecy on the Web

    In the end time, the ENTIRE world’s leadership will be made up of those people who will follow the beasts of Revelation 13. (Re.17:8, Re.14:9-11)In the end, just prior to the Seventh TRUMPET (1 Thess.4:16-17), ALL NATIONS will come against Jerusalem to battle (Zech.14:2).In the end time, the world moves progressively toward COMPLETE evil.At the Sixth PLAGUE the world is so completely evil that we see the Devil WITH the two beasts of Revelation 13 prior to the battle of Armegeddon (Re.6:12-16).The Devil will be manifested in the flesh as Gog.Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the WebAuthor of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    Patricia, would you mind explaining why you think it makes more sense to posit that there will be a return to precisely the situation in the author’s time (reconstitute the Roman Empire, rebuild the temple, etc.) rather than reading it as the book itself suggests, as one relevant to its initial readers and referring to their time and their near future?I’m sure you think your view of Revelation is self-explanatory. It isn’t. I used to view the book much as you do, but that was because I was not even made aware that there were other points of view that Christians had, much less that the sort of approach you are (and I was) taking is very much a recent phenomenon.

  • Anonymous

    Insane Obama Myth 1 Obama the AntichristI have been forwarded emails “quoting” the book of Revelation saying the antichrist will be a man in his mid forties of a Muslim decent who will rule the free world for 42 months. The man will call himself a Christian but he will be evil. Christians will follow him into the war of Armageddon. He will speak with eloquence and charisma. He will promise world peace and deliver destruction.Here is some truth in what lies in the pages of the King James Version:1 John 2:22 The antichrist will deny Jesus as the flesh son of God. Obama has proclaimed that he is a Christian. But the 1 John 2:22 says that the antichrist will deny Jesus. Obama has openly and publicly announced that he is a Christian and has worshipped in a Christian church his entire adult life.Revelation 13:5 Power will be given to the beast for forty and two months. Ok, Revalation does have a reference to 42 months…but what does this mean? A presidential term is 48 months. If you add in the 2 months between the time that the president is elected and the time that he is actually sworn into office then you have 50 months. Why then is the “42 months” reference relevant? This is it. I can’t find anything in Revelation that even mentions the antichrist. Yes there is reference to the seven headed beast. But this beast is not referred to as a forty year old man. As far as a biblical reference to the antichrist being Muslim? Well, the book of Revelation was completed by the end of the 2nd century, but the religion of Islam wasn’t founded until about 400 years later. The notion that revelation would mention a Muslim at all is rather far-fetched (I snitched this line from Snopes.com)Other nominees for the position of antichrist in the past (just to name a few):1. Nero 6. George W Bush 11. Martin Luther King 16. A Super computer in Brussells2. Hitler 7. Bill Clinton 12. Friedrich Nietzsche 17. Prince William3. Napolean 8.Osama Bin Laden 13. Pope John Paul II 18. Caligula4. Putin 9. Saddam Hussein 14. Peter the Great 19. Muhammad,5. JF Kennedy 10. Pope Benedict 15. Barney the Dinosaur 20. All future Popes

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03541821479915378677 Bible Prophecy on the Web

    The term Anti-Christ is not in the Bible to reference the two beasts of Revelation chapter 13. End-time prophecy is confronted with THREE separate and unique evil entities, the dragon, the beast of Revelation 13:1, and the beast of Revelation 13:11. At Revelation16:13 and Revelation 19:20 the dragon is Satan, the beast is the beast of Revelation 13:1, the false prophet is the beast of Revelation 13:11.ALL persons who deny that Jesus is the Christ, who deny the Father and the Son, are anti-Christ. (1 Jn.2:18, 1 Jn.2:22, 1 Jn.4:3, 2 Jn.1:7).Patricia © Bible Prophecy on the WebAuthor of the self-study aid, The Book of Revelation Explained © 1982http://groups.yahoo.com/group/BibleProphecy

  • Anonymous

    When did Jesus come back and establish his kingdom on the new heaven and new earth James? When was Satan thrown into the lake of fire that burns forever and ever where the beast and the false prophet are James? When did the Christians get beheaded James? They were crucified and thrown to lions in the old Roman empire James. These things ARE in the news James.Obama says he is going to “Change (Save) the World” He is being worshipped, idolized, has songs hailing him, the world loves him. He has television anchors calling him “Messiah”. We have world leaders calling for a one world monetary system by 2010. http://www.cnn.com/TECH/computing/9909/28/global.e.currency.idg/index.htmland http://www.streitcouncil.org/content/pdf_and_doc/Journal%20SC%20Fall%202007%20Costa.pdf (within 7 years, this was before the world markets crashed. Both China and France are calling for a world monetary system after the crash)Obama is a media “CREATION”Obama is NOT a Christian, he is definetly anti Christian as he stated that Jesus is NOT the only way. It was the way for “him” to get to heaven. He is calling Jesus a liar, as Jesus stated HE was the only WAY to God. You can’t have both “many ways” and an “ONLY way”. That is illogical.He comes out of a religion that is for world dominance, and its method of killing infidels is beheading, (I heard the voices of those who were beheaded for the cause of Christ and the word of God…”)So we have a world currency and a world religion, we are just waiting for an incident to happen on the earth that will cause great turmoil, perhaps a massive earthquake that will kill millions and adversly effect the world currency even further, which a world leader who can speak well to be on the scene to call for calm? One that the world already loves?Then there are those who falsly say (I’m thinking of you James) “And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue ° as they were from the beginning of the creation.”

  • Anonymous

    “Evangelicalism”I didn’t need to read much after that “word” to realise you’re just an ignorant Obama supporter clearly still HOPEnotized by his lies.ABANDON ALL HOPEPatricia © Im a Faggot on the WebAuthor of the tits aid, Fart House © 2008http://groups.yahoo.com/poopoo/ImGay

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    Alas, the “single monetary system” is a modern myth, made up by modern apocalypticists who say one must interpret the Bible literally…unless it says one must literally have the mark of the beast on one’s body, then it is a reference to a “single monetary system”.The fact that apocalyptic literature describes historical events that can be documented and then abruptly announces the last judgment will follow is a problem one faces not only in relation to Revelation’s depiction of the Roman Empire, but also Daniel’s depiction of the crisis under Antiochus Epiphanes. You can complain that it has these features, but saying that these works did not refer to events in their time won’t work. Revelation is clear that it was referring to kings that had already ruled (“five have fallen”), were ruling then (“one now is”) and would rule soon. If what the Bible actually says is too inconvenient for you, you are welcome to find another one, but please don’t pretend the Bible supports your view of things.You might want to see what George W. Bush has to say about whether Jesus is the only way, and what recent polls say most evangelicals think about this subject…

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/03541821479915378677 Bible Prophecy on the Web

    The Holy Bible says, Give none offense, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God (1 Cor.10:32).Patricia

  • Anonymous

    James,Do you believe that Jesus is the only way to the Father?Do you believe we are now living on the new earth?Do you believe that Satan the devil is now in the lake of fire?If not the first one, YOU are an anti-Christ. If not the second and third, then YOU are opposed to yourself, because you clearly believe some things in Revelation are future. You are calling Jesus a liar, for he said, “In the last days, periless times will come.” Those were the days John was referring to.When did the great earthquake happen that rent mount Mariah in half? When did Antiochus Epiphanes get a head wound “unto death”? How did the whole earth see it? When did the earth melt with a fervant heat (Clearly a reference to nuclear activity.) When did the billion foot soldier army from the east cross the Euphrates? When did the Kings of the Earth gather at Armageddon? These events HAVE NOT OCCURED.You want to parse it because it “fits” your interpretation. You “allegoricallize” those parts that do not fit your “lens”. If part of it allegory, then it all is, you can’t pick and choose. If John got only part of the prophecy correct, then he is not to be trusted (feared) in any of it.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    Anonymous, perhaps you’d care to clarify in what sense you believe Matthew 16:28 was an accurate prediction?You can always tell someone who hasn’t studied the Bible in detail. They say things like “If John got only part of the prophecy correct, then he is not to be trusted (feared) in any of it.”Presumably you’ve already excised Jonah from your Bible, since he predicted that Nineveh would be overthrown within 40 days, and yet 40 days later it was still standing.

  • Anonymous

    In regards to Matthew, you ASSUME, every person present died. There is another verse that you might want to look at John 21:22? God certainly translated Enoch. As to the 40 days of Jonah, God also told David he would die if he remained in Keilah, but he left and was not killed by Saul. What this has to do with the prophecies of John in Revelation I do not know. You are presenting a “weak analogy” logical fallacy argument. Yes they are both prophetic, however the one that I gave you about David is more in line with the Jonah prophecy.You did not answer any of the challenges that I gave you, therefore I must conclude you are conceding the points. The main point that you are picking and choosing which verses fit your argument.Again I ask you, Do you believe in God and are you a Christian?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    I am a Christian and I believe in God. And I also believe that you are here looking for an argument and to justify yourself, rather than out of a desire to understand the Bible. You have not answered the overarching point made with reference to Jonah, namely that Biblical prophecy always had the “unless you repent” clause implicit. To take things that were not fulfilled and assume that they one day must be is to twist Scripture.You have not addressed my point, made more clearly in another post. Revelation 17 clearly states that some of the symbolism used refers to kings who had fallen and one who ruled at the time when the book was written. The question is not whether anything in the book is future – clearly there are references to the final judgment and end of the world which don’t describe things that have happened. The key question is whether you are willing to acknowledge that the Bible itself indicates that there is reference to some things that are past, or whether you will stubbornly continue to ignore the Bible while deluding yourself that you are defending it and being faithful to it.

  • Anonymous

    Rev:17 11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.These things have not happened yet.According to you Antiocus Epiphanes was the winner, here the Lamb is the winner.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    What nonsense! I never said any such thing. Antiochus is in Daniel, the Lamb in Revelation. You seem not to know the historical context to which these works allude. How then can you make any judgment about what is future and what is past and present from the perspective of the author and original readers?

  • Anonymous

    try a slightly different interpretation the 1st beast being papal Rome. and the second beast with two horn or two ruler(the democrat and republican parties) creating an image to the first beast.if he is that man?,,,,,

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    Obviously the language of Revelation can be applied to all sorts of things and all sorts of people. The history of interpretation shows that.The real challenge is whether American Christians will rise to the challenge of not assuming we are the “good guys” in Revelation, and instead repent of the ways in which we as a nation (and not merely some other guy, or some political candidate or even president elect) resemble the self confident Roman empire living in luxury that was the original object of the author of Revelation’s criticism.

  • Anonymous

    You are claiming that A.E. is the one that fulfills this prophecy. Yet, the Lamb has not returned victoriously yet. I see also from an earlier response you must hold the open view of Scripture. If that is the REAL case then most of Revelation is worthless. You state that things can change the outcome. Like Jonah’s 40 day prophecy.Where in Revelation does it say that the prophecy of Revelation can be changed IF people repent?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    Antiochus Epiphanes is in Daniel. Nero is almost certainly the Roman emperor in view in Revelation. You seem not to be aware of the difference of date and historical setting of these two books.Where does Jonah say that the Ninevites will be overthrown in 40 days “unless they repent”? If you want to avoid the conclusion that Jonah is a false prophet, you have to admit that this qualifier is implicit even when not stated.

  • Anonymous

    These are some interesting comments. I think that most of this thinking is mostly a diversion. We need not be occupying so much time worrying about the end. God knows what he is doing and has the ultimate say in what goes on, when, and where. As a believer, the only thing I need to concern myself with is being a witness and a living testimony of what Christ has done in my life, thereby working on the great commission of going and making. As far as the revelation of the A/C, 2 Thessalonians 2 puts that into perspective. I don’t think we as Christians need to spend very much time going over this subject. There are plenty of other things we need to consume our time with.

  • ra

    Hey James, just in case……better watch Obama closely anyway, huh?

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/04937705873059905449 hereami

    To the guy who looks to John Stewart for news I pitty you. I stopped watching that garbage when I stopped watching South Park. (probably your other favorite show) I challenge anyone, who is not afraid to learn something, to proove the Bible wrong, or is it that you are afraid to be held accountable to something greater than your own wee ego.

  • http://www.blogger.com/profile/02561146722461747647 James F. McGrath

    Hereami, people watch Jon Stewart for entertainment, not news. At least I assume they do. What do you mean by “proving the Bible wrong”? If a Biblical author assumed the worldview of his time (see e.g. Matthew 4:8, not to mention Genesis 1), would that constitute being “wrong” in your opinion when with today’s scientific knowledge we know more than was known in ancient times? If you are here to have an intelligent discussion, it would be helpful to provide a better basis for it by going into greater detail about what you are asking.

  • Anonymous

    would it not be better if everyone read the bible for themselves? iF YOU have your life right with God then it really doesn’t matter rather Obama is the anti christ or not. If you are right with God you will be taken away from this sinful earth!

  • Anonymous

    1. rev.10, Global Warming,(tarot 14 Temperance, of Change) Obama. (symbol: Rainbow: flood, Sun: Radiation, Cloud: ozone, pillar of fire: lead and protect, barack or baraka mean blessing, feet on land and sea: see Ge 1:22, raise hand swear to God: Inauguration. "no more delay; A new birth of freedom!")2. rev.9:11, Saddam = Abaddon, Apollyon. The two Bush Part 1 & 2 'Euphrates or Gulf War', the fifth and the sixth Trumpet angels. (Symbol: shaft of Abyss, oil well. locusts/battle horses/ironplated/scorpion's sting: helicopters. Euphrates: Persian Gulf)3. rev.8:10, Chernobyl = wormwood. (symbol: star/tourch: nuclear reactor. river and spring water: underground water. bitter: contamination)4. Rev.6, Seals the WWII. Seal 1 F.D.Roosevelt(USA). Seal 2 Hirohito (Japan). Seal 3 Stalin (Russian), Seal 4 Hitler (Germany) and Mussolini (Italy). Seal 5 holocaust. Seal 6 Atom Bomb.One more Revelation, Rev 11 and we will enter into the Seventh Age of the World.


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