Quote of the Day (Fred Clark)

Fred Clark has a post on his blog focused on the requirement to accept Gentiles communicated in Acts 10-11, as God is described as expanding his people to include those previously excluded. In that connection he writes:

I believe that denying LGBT people full legal equality is objectively immoral. I believe that excluding LGBT people from full inclusion, full participation and full equality in the church is objectively immoral — and objectively unbiblical….It’s particularly astonishing that the very same American Christians now excluding LGBT Christians from full inclusion and full participation in the church are, overwhelmingly, Gentiles. We Gentile Christians would, ourselves, be excluded if it were not for that lesson Peter learned in Acts 10:1-11:18. Freely you have received, freely give. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.

Read the rest in his post, ‘God has shown me that I should not call anyone profane or unclean’ on his blog Slacktivist.

  • http://www.facebook.com/EarBucket David Coulter

    I find this line of argument extremely persuasive, but what do we do with 1 Corinthians 5?

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

      Can you be more specific?

      • http://www.facebook.com/EarBucket David Coulter

        Two components, I guess. First, the idea that we should exclude the immoral from Christian fellowship, and then Paul’s view that a consensual sexual relationship is immoral enough to warrant such exclusion.

        I like Paul a lot, and I tend to agree with him most of the time, but this chapter really runs smack up against my conception of Christian practice. I’m okay with saying, “Well, Paul just got this one wrong,” but I’d rather try to pull it apart and make sure I’m understanding him properly first.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

          Well, if we define Christian marriage as a loving covenant between two individuals, and extend to people of the same gender the right to enter into such a covenant, then we would not necessarily have to exclude people. Indeed, one can make the argument that viewing love and fidelity as the central values in Christian marriage might lead naturally to such an extension.

          We have revisited the issue of slavery, drawing a different practical stance than Paul did, but based on Paul’s own principles. And so I think what Fred Clark is doing here is something similar.

          • http://www.facebook.com/EarBucket David Coulter

            That makes sense. Thanks.

          • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_E7Z3TKCXJOJ3NP2MZJVXJME2HA David

            Yet you have no authority from God to re-define what marriage is. It is between a man and a woman only.

            • aaronpxian

              And it is a property contract that grants the man ownership of the woman, her slaves, and her offspring.

              FURTHERMORE THE BIBLE IS CLEAR THAT INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE IS WRONG THE ISREALITES WERE TOLD TO NOT INTERMARRY LEAST THEY BE LEAD ASTRAY IF CHRISTIANS WOULD LISTEN TO THE BIBLE TODAY AND NOT MARRY INDIANS AND AFRICANS WE WOULDN’T HAVE GAY MARRIAGE IT ALL STARTED WITH THE NORTH NOT UNDERSTANDING HOW LOVING SLAVERY (WERE A SLAVE LOVINGLY SUBMITS TO THE MASTER AND THE MASTER LOVINGLY PROVIDES FOR HIS SLAVE) IS THE INSTITUTION UPON WHICH SOCIETY STANDS OR FALLS. ABOLISHING SLAVERY LEAD TO ABORTION, GAYS, AND BLACK MUSLIMS PRESIDENTS! LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED EVERY TIME THE ISREALITES INTERMARRIED! THINK ABOUT IT! YOU HAVE NO AUTHORITY FROM GOD TO FORCE INTERRACCIAL MARRIAGE ON GOD FEARING TRUE CHRISTIANS! THINK ABOUT IT!

              IN CHRIST, DOCTOR A.

              (I’m working out my fundyese, and my first bigot badge)

        • Susan Burns

          Why worry about what Paul thought? We know that gay people are entitled to abundant life. Denying this God given right is immoral. There is suffering going on before our eyes but it is ignored by Conservatives. How can they remain so blind and still call themselves Christians? They seem to be more worried about parsing scripture than in actual human beings.

          • Dr. David Tee

            No they are not. The Bible says ‘for the wages of sin is death…’ If the Homosexual wants eternal life, they must repent of their sins, including homosexuality, and follow Jesus.
            Those are the rules and GOD makes them for HIS kingdom.

  • Susan Burns

    Conservative Christians need to look into their hearts and ask themselves why they need someone to hate. They need to ask themselves why they need a scapegoat. As long as they continue to block the work Jesus started 2,000 years ago, we will never get where we are going. Conservatives need to stop hanging on to the last vestiges of primitivism so that we can evolve.

    • Dr. David Tee

      Telling someone that they are sinning and that their lifestyle will send them to hell is NOT hating but loving them enough to tell the truth to them. The secular world won’t do that … think about it

      • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

        And yet when I lovingly tell you that you are sinfully elevating the Bible into a god and committing idolatry, you refuse to listen. Strange…and sad.

        • Dr. David Tee

          i am not sinning and you are no one to tell me anything, you are a false teacher leading people to sin against God. You are deceived and being deceived. The Bible says to check the Spirits not blindly follow them.
          You teach lies and lead people away from the truth. You need to get right with God. Time is short.
          P.S. Now that you and your readers have been told, my participation here will be less unless you post something interesting that invites discussion. The worst thing about people like you, is that you can’t be honest with yourselves.

  • Dr. David Tee

    The question is–why are you fighting to legitimize what God has called sin, an abomination and unqualified to enter HIS kingdom? Why would you call sin good? Your sense of morality, of right and wrong do not matter, God ha smade the rules for HIS kingdom and that is HIS right. You have no say in the matter.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

      That same argument has been used to justify the exclusion of Gentiles, slavery, subjugation of women, and much else. People of faith have always looked back at what previous generations assumed was sin, and apart from those who wrongly elevated texts to the level of divinity as you insist on doing, they have recognized the need to rethink the implications of their most fundamental principles.

    • Susan Burns

      Dr. Tee has proven to everyone that his intent is to incite. He is not interested in honest discussion because the truth is not relevant to his intention. The perverse satisfaction achieved through incitement is becoming commonplace in the internet age. The term especially created for this dysfunction is “troll”.
      I would ask Dr. Tee; how did gay people come to be? If God did not create these people for his purposes then how did they come to be? If you would care to answer then I would reconsider my opinion of your intention.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_E7Z3TKCXJOJ3NP2MZJVXJME2HA David

        You would be wrong about me

        • Susan Burns

          You are officially a troll. Trolls should not be fed.

    • arcseconds

      Hey, Dr. Tee, as someone who always does exactly what the Bible says, no doubt you are spending hundreds of times more effort combating greed
      and improving the lot of the poor than you do combating homosexuality.

      Perhaps we should spend more time focusing on our common causes rather
      than our differences? Are you perhaps arguing against laissez-faire economics and social darwinism somehwere?

      We could help.

      • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_E7Z3TKCXJOJ3NP2MZJVXJME2HA David

        There are no common causes with evil. The Bible says what fellowship does righteous have with unrighteous.

        • arcseconds

          Is this a failure of reading comprehension, or are you calling me evil?

          • Dr. David Tee

            That depends upon where you stand in relation to God’s word. if you reject some or all of it, then yes you are on evil’s side. Read 1 John and see what the auhtor has to say about continuing in sin and fellowship with God.

            • Beau Quilter

              So “Dr. Tee”, I have asked you this before, but you don’t answer. It’s pretty clear that when you say “God’s word” you are referring to the collection of texts we call the bible.

              But did you know that the phrase “God’s word”, when it is used in the bible, never refers to the bible itself? It sometimes refers to the Torah and sometimes refers to the spoken words shared between Christians, but it never refers to what we call the Bible.

              Why do you use the phrase “God’s word” in ways that the Bible does not? Why do you believe that the Bible is “God’s Word”, when the Bible itself never makes this claim?

              • Dr. David Tee

                Again you look for specific words and ignore the reality. The Bible, all of the books, are God’s word because they come with God’s authority. They are God’s word in written form, and God is allowed and free to do that.
                you also ignore the warnings that God has placed in the Bible about adding, subtractin, changing His words. They are not limited to one or two books of the Bible.
                Paul also writes that ‘those who bring a different gospel than the on ewe brought, let him be accursed.’
                Dr. McGrath brings a different gospel and He is not accursed.

            • arcseconds

              So you don’t know? You’re refusing my help in your crusade against economic injustice on the basis that I *might* be evil?

  • http://pulse.yahoo.com/_E7Z3TKCXJOJ3NP2MZJVXJME2HA David

    What I see in the comments people have made and the articles posted by this website is a group of people who do not want God’s ways only their own. They blame everyone else but themselves for their problems in accepting God’s word as He wrote it and allow themselves to be influenced by evil people and their ideas or thinking.
    Solve your problem of disobedience first, repent of your sins and then you will find the next step

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

      You keep saying “God wrote it” – are you willing to explain why the Bible itself says that human beings wrote the works contained therein?

  • Susan Burns

    In my small rural community there were 3 suicides of adolescent children one year. For several years in a row there was at least 1. I know some of these children were bullied everyday on the bus and called gay. As a mother, it hurts my spirit to see innocent children bearing the brunt of religious primitivism. Conservatives need to see the consequences of using an ancient holy book instead of their own brains for guidance. They are killing our youth. For every child that commits suicide there are 3 more that have thought about it. Think of how much misery that is! This is such a tragic trend that a public service announcement was created to combat the problem. The beloved Tim Gunn was featured telling children “it gets better”. He, too, had thoughts of suicide because of being bullied. My God! What if we lost Tim Gunn? The world would not be quite as wonderful. But think of all the potential that has been lost. If we embrace our gay citizens instead of killing their spirit then our entire society will be far superior to any other.

    • Dr. David Tee

      You still do not know what you are talking about and blame the wrong item and people. You are deceived and misguided.


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