Would Ken Ham Listen?

A friend on Facebook shared this with me:

To paraphrase what Abraham said to the rich man in the parable in Luke’s Gospel: Ken Ham has the Bible and the evidence of creation. If he won’t listen to these, he won’t listen even if a voice comes from heaven.

  • SpeakTruth

    I thank Ken Ham for speaking the Truth no matter the persecution he suffers.

    • AramMcLean

      He is not persecuted. Nor does he play fair. He deletes any difference of opinion from FB almost immediately, no matter how cordial it may be, as if he’s frightened some of the sheep who follow him might actually start to think. In any case, this whole persecution complex Christians have is based on the idea that being persecuted somehow makes their fantasies more true. You do realize that it’s a myth in general, yeah. Ken Ham gets teased and insulted sometimes. This is not persecution. This is life. No one is being beaten. No one is being flayed. No one is losing their head (though some would say Mr Ham lost his mind years ago) Get over it.

      • STR8UP

        What planet do you live on? I’ve seen videos of Christian being beheaded right on Al Jazerra TV because they refused to renounce their faith.

        • AramMcLean

          I was speaking of Ken Ham’s world, the US of A. You want to bring in the rest of the planet, then you better be willing to admit that all religions suffer persecution, not just Christianity by a long shot! Does that make them all true?

          • STR8UP

            Generally, I only see Islam blowing people up in every country they’re in, in the name of Allah. How is that the religion of peace?

            • AramMcLean

              Wow. Just…wow! You need to watch something over than Fox News, mate. In any case, I never said anything about Islam being a religion of peace. As far as I’m concerned all religions are a raging joke and the last time an intelligent person could believe in one without shame was approximately 150 years ago.

              My only point here is that all religions get persecuted from time to time. Whether it’s Catholics killing Protestants, or Orthodox killing Byzantines, or Muslims killing Christians or vice versa, or Hindus killing Muslims…you get the point, I hope. The concept I’m trying to offer is that being persecuted is not a sign of being right. Rather it is simply an example of how holding strict ideologies often leads to maiming and death – much like Stalinism and Pol Pot as well. Religion is just another form of ideology, after all – which is why strident beliefs are so frightening to me.

              As the American physicist, Steven Weinberg, said, “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.”

              I would simply change ‘religion’ to ‘ideology’, for as the evils of the 20th century showed us, religion does not have a monopoly on death and destruction.

              • STR8UP

                Are you an atheist, then?

                • AramMcLean

                  What’s the point of labels? But if you insist, I would say I am a humanist.

                  • STR8UP

                    Then in your humanist view, I’m sure you realize that there is no concept of right and wrong, good or evil… that it is all subjective. Ultimately, that what it boils down to… correct?

                    • AramMcLean

                      Are you seriously going to make your play with ‘without god what stops you from murdering people?’ idiocy? Please don’t. You’re better than that.

                    • STR8UP

                      My “play” has nothing to do with this, I just want to see what you truly believe.

                    • AramMcLean

                      here, read this article first, and then see if you want to continue on the path you seem to be undertaking.

                      http://www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/2011/12/plantingas-nutty-evolutionary-argument-against-naturalism/

                    • STR8UP

                      My point was not about natural reaction. I was referring to right and wrong. Boiling it down, if we were out in the middle of nowhere, no society, no other people, just you and me… and even though there was other food around, I decided to kill you and eat you, would that be wrong or evil?

                    • AramMcLean

                      To be honest, if lost in the jungle I would rather be with a non-believer than one. Why? Because non-believer’s do what’s right simply because they believe it to be so, not because some god is telling them to. And yes, of course it would be wrong of you to kill and eat me, but only from my point of view. Not that I would exist any more.

                      But from your point of view, maybe you’d survive thanks to my body’s nutrients, then cognitive dissonance would kick in, and you’d look at your newborn baby’s face or whatever and convince yourself it was you or me. Better someone to spread the true word than a heathen. Or some such thing.

                      I know exactly where you’re trying to go with this. “Where does this moral plane come from if not god?” Right?
                      This argument is so asinine, but I understand why you can’t see it.

                      The fact is that as a sociable creature we evolved to live in harmony with one another, with the ‘right’ way being the set-up that gives us all the best chance of living an undisturbed life. But even in this set-up you can see how flawed we are. Psychopaths, for example, are obviously a throwback to when being devoid of empathy was a great survival trait for human beings (think cavemen).

                      And then of course there’s ideologies, of which religion is but one group, which convince people they are right in every way, empathy fails artificially, and so atrocities ensue.

                    • STR8UP

                      Aram, despite your feelings on the matter, the reality is much different than you would like to believe. In nature we see death everyday, as animals kill and are killed while peaceably living in herds in the same vicinity. They generally display the same natural empathy for their newborns, yet go out and rip to shreds other animals to feed on them.

                      You somehow want to believe that humans are more evolved. Instead, I see a God-given conscience that has nothing to do with evolution because it is spiritual in nature… the part that science necessarily ignores.

                      If you wish to label this argument as asinine, then you need to be able to explain how moral relativism can be a foundation for human society when there are so many varying opinions. And when viewed with the lens of naturalism, there is no “reason” why a person would be wrong or evil for wanting to be “king of the jungle” and subjugating all others.

                    • AramMcLean

                      ‘Aram, despite your feelings on the matter, the reality is much different than you would like to believe.’

                      It’s statements like this that are why I don’t debate with zealots. Argue about moral relativism all you want, that doesn’t make your god real.

                      Animals, in general, don’t kill their own species. They kill others. Just like we do. If anything we are less evolved than animals morally because we should know better than to kill each other, yet we continue to do so at an astonishing rate.

                      Unlike you, I’m not afraid to say I don’t know. I am simply following the evidence to my conclusions. Conclusions that are open to change if the evidence changes. You and your ilk, on the other hand, start with a conclusion and then squeeze and deform the evidence to make it fit. I cannot debate with people like you. This was amusing, but I’m off for a walk now. The sun is shining. I might even have a beer.

                      Cheers, whatever your real name is.
                      (I don’t hide behind a fake handle)

                    • STR8UP

                      My God was not the point of the discussion. It was about the logic of your beliefs. I find it interesting that I found you on this threat combating just about anything anybody said… yet your own beliefs seem rather illogical for anything other than feeling good about yourself. There is no basis for moral superiority there for you to blast others about faith based morality.

                      Enjoy the sun and your day… both are gifts from your Creator whether you want to acknowledge Him or not.

                    • AramMcLean

                      Of course your god was the point of the discussion. You’re saying moral grounds come from him somehow. As far as me being on this thread, I admit that I made the mistake of engaging with people, something that swiftly becomes a lesson in futility, and hence I lost interest. However, you should know I don’t believe in things to ‘feel good about myself’. That’s your department. I simply believe what the evidence shows me. The evidence clearly shows that your god has about as much chance of existing as a fluffy pink bunny who rules the sky.

                      Well, enjoy your day and I hope it’s sunny. Both are gifts from the Fluffy Pink Bunny, whether you acknowledge Him or not.

                    • STR8UP

                      No, my God wasn’t the point, it was an attempt to try to determine if you had thought through your own beliefs. But alas, you prefer to attack me and my beliefs instead of speaking to yours… like that will somehow validate your illogical conclusions.

                    • AramMcLean

                      You people just don’t get it do you? I don’t have any supernatural beliefs. I believe that we are simply here, and we should treat each other best as we can. You want to say that we only know to treat each other well because of some god. Fine. I say horseshit. End of discussion.

                    • STR8UP

                      I believe that you are the one that doesn’t get it. Your assessment of what it is to “treat each the best we can” is illogical. What is best? Who gets to define that? What is the point of having a best if it isn’t authoritative Is it to satisfy your own humanistic philosophy?

                      And if you then are declaring yourself as the authority of that philosophy, and you therefore not also declaring yourself the god associated with your philosophy? I suggest that when you confront that, it is then that you should engage others about their beliefs… and be prepared to defend why yours are any better or authoritative.

                    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

                      That issue cannot be sidestepped by appeal to the divine. Making God the source of morality simply moves it from one subjective locus, that of human beings, to a divine subject. But it does not remove the problem of whether such a deity can command the slaughter of every living thing in a city including infants and transform such an action into “good.”

                      Why do you have objections to Jesus’ approach, which acknowledged that morality was subjective, and involves empathy, placing ourselves in the other person’s shoes and doing to them what we would want done to us if we were in their place?

                    • AramMcLean

                      Jesus did say: “And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise.”
                      Yet Confucius was much earlier: “Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.”
                      But then you’ve got Paul asking people for the impossible: “Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.”
                      which somewhat undermines the NT as a believable moral authority, don’t you think?

                    • AramMcLean

                      Your premise is flawed from the outset. I believe we all (a small percentage ie psychopaths, pedophiles, indoctrinated people, do not) , but I believe for the most part we all have an inherent idea of what is ‘right’. I believe we evolved this way over many thousands of years as we, a social animals inclined to live in large groups, worked out the most advantageous way to live together in harmony.

                      You say I god is needed. I say we came to these ideas on our one, as we all naturally want to live in peace (again, a few people are exempt). Much like troupes of monkeys and prides of lions and herds of caribou, and so on, know how to live in a way that is beneficial to the majority of the group, so to is where our common understanding of ‘right’ comes from.

                      Again, you continue to bleat that a god is needed. I say it is not. Occams Razor slices down decidedly on my side of these proceedings.

                      Now, I understand your point of view, despite disagreeing with it. You’re absolutely convinced a magical god is needed, ad nothing will change your mind. This is why I don’t see the point in overly engaging with you. Let us agree to disagree and call it day.

                      Ciao amigo

                    • STR8UP

                      Aram, I actually don’t think you understand my point of view, but view it as you wish. I will just add as a parting thought though, that it appears that your concept of love/empathy is about permissiveness, “live and let live”, where true Christian love is about a standard set by God (who has the authority to do so) that is upheld by all regardless of our feelings.

                      So, when you mention homosexuality, it not about our desire for the individual to be “happy” but rather faith in God that He has made known what’s acceptable, and that there is a penalty for divergence from that.

                      So, do I want to see an individual be “happy” while knowing that he will pay for his unrepentance for eternity? And you can apply that to any sin because a sign of a Christian is one who repents and decides to believe in God’s standard, not his own based on feelings.

                      Helping others and treating them as we would like to be treated aside, real love is about wanting everyone to be in a right relationship with God regardless of how we feel.

                      I sincerely hope that you take a fresh look at the real premise of biblical Christianity without the baggage of 21st century western culture. God bless you.

                    • AramMcLean

                      This is exactly what I thought you believed.
                      And like I already said, your comment just now proves that you utterly lack genuine empathy for others. I know you can’t see it Mr StraightUp, but sin is not real. And really mate, you’re a grown up and should know by now that hell is made up.

                      Your opinion of homosexuals is straight up bigotry out of the mouth of your imaginary god. You are taking your moral compass from stone age homophobics and you will die a poorer man if you continue to believe such tripe. Perhaps if you have a gay child you will be forced to reevaluate your rigid idiotic stance.

                      This last comment is exactly what I was replying to all along. You think you are saying something new, but really you’re just repeating redundant talking points as said by many other mistaken bigots in your group. I know you can’t see it. But these are the facts.

                      And I would never follow a god as idiotically judgmental as the one you profess to love, even if he was real. I’m better than that.

                    • STR8UP

                      Yet, you have illogical ideology, and believe that you developed a spiritual component that lets you be more moral than God is.

                      When you consider that the latest research points to 10 billion years needed for human evolution, you will hold on to it anyway.

                      And then when you approach the best theories for abiogenesis (which evolution is dependent on), and see their impossibility, you will continue unfazed with your rejection of God.

                      As a former atheist, I’ll stick with the God who knows me better than I know myself. You can can continue to believe that *nothing* made *something* and it all *randomly* came together. I’ve been there, done that, and thought it through. Good luck with that!

                    • AramMcLean

                      I do not believe I am more moral than god. The god of your bible does not exist. Just as Allah does not exist to you (though he is technically the same god as yours). Just as the Hindu gods don’t exist for you. And so on.

                      You start from the position that god is real, and this is why we will never see eye to eye. The main difference between you and me, however, is that I’ve been where you are now and therefore I can see both inside and outside the bubble you are in. I understand exactly what your brain is doing, yet you have no idea how to understand me. This, naturally, gives me the advantage. And no, you were never an atheist. You were a lost soul who bought into the Jesus trip and now likes to go around to revival meetings and give a ‘testimony’ about having been an atheist and all the ‘bad’ things god saved you from. It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic.

                      I found a video for you. I’m sure it speaks more eloquently than I can be bothered to. Check it out, with an open mind! (if possible)

                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=HRCtUiykDeQ

                    • STR8UP

                      You’re sadly mistaken. You can make believe that you know what my life experience is, but you are quite wrong. I was truly an atheist who rejected all gods and religions. I thought that when I died I would lose consciousness and rot in the ground. When I came to Christ, I entered into a relationship with the living God.

                      After 30+ years of walking with Him, He has done so many amazing things in my life that there is no way that I could ever deny what He did. I can certainly walk away from it all, and seek feel good, pity party stuff, but it wouldn’t change what I know is true. You are quite arrogant to think that you know what is going on in my brain.

                      I had to stop listening to that whiny YouTube video you provided a link to. That was a sad, deluded soul… too bad that they have now decided to take make it their mission to help provide an easy way out for other who are struggling. There is help for those that are sincere, but many are not.

                      I do understand you better than you know because I know human nature. Ultimately, like many false converts, you don’t want God’s authority over you, you like sin too much to kick it out of your life, and you want to be accepted by the world. Too bad… because as a Christian what you exchange your life for is much better than your pride, lusts, and control. You just don’t know that because you didn’t last very long. The kool-aid ran out and you burned up just like the seed that fell among the rocky soil.

                      Oh well, what can I say… A man reaps what he sows, and the Lord knows those that are His’. I will pray for you that God have mercy on your soul as He did mine. There may still be time for you to repent, but I know that at some point God will just harden the proud, hard-hearted ones like He did pharaoh, and there will be no opportunity to repent like Esau found out. We all make a choice… I humbly sought the Lord and He answered me.

                    • AramMcLean

                      You are truly a fool, Mr Fake Name.
                      I wish you as good a life as you can have, half-lived.
                      Your arrogance is astounding. Goodbye fool

                    • STR8UP

                      Susan was right… you are an angry man. And to top it off, you act rather childish. But worse yet you aren’t honest about it. You think that you’re free, but you’re obsessed (like so many other atheists) with people who have a belief in God. Ultimately, you just add another instance of proof that God’s word is true because your behavior is plainly seen.

                      18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

                      24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

                      26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

                      28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

                      Romans 1:18-32

                    • AramMcLean

                      Your bible verses are worthless and mean nothing. Your opinion that I am angry is warrantless. Keep on treading water in the Kool-Aid, mate. It’s way over your head. I’m genuinely sorry for your foolish indoctrinated brain. Good luck with that. It’s been fun. I’m off to do other things that don’t involve your Stockholm syndrome with an imaginary dictator god. Ciao

                    • STR8UP

                      Worthless to those that fail to see how they aptly it describes those that refuse and rebel. Your rejection of the truth doesn’t change it, and I’ll predict that you’ll be again engaging Christians in no time at all… because in reality you have nothing better to do, and your anger will not let you go.

                      So, ciao, as you say, but it’ll be ciao real soon again to someone else as you beat them up about their beliefs. I’ve chatted with hundreds of people just like you… same MO… living in some made up reality that millions and millions of Christians that testify to the works of God in their lives are delusional, lying, or unhappy, or some other projection of self.

                      And they all think they have something better in their found freedom in the denial of sin and the One who defines it, while displaying the sure signs of its bonds as they rail against those that know better… still slaves though they deny it.

                      So keep believing in nothing bringing about everything, if you wish, but there’s no escaping how illogical that is. And keep believing that millions and millions of molecules randomly and simultaneous just came together at the right time to form 300 various amino acids to create 1 protein and form the base of 1 cell at the precise time that some spark lit them up, if you wish… though that is a near mathematical impossibility and is quite against the 2nd law of thermodynamics. And keep believing that we evolved from these improbable cells, even though there’s gaping holes in that theory, such as where are all the remains of these trillions and trillions of humans and animals that would have lived across the billions of years you estimate that life has been around. And keep believing that thought, mind, conscience, soul, spirit, etc.are all somehow the product of our evolved states, even though there’s no such evidence to suggest that.

                      Yet it is those that believe in God that are deluded. Hmm… believe it if you wish. I don’t have THAT much faith. I’d rather take my chances with my deluded mind that has a demonstrated cause and effect, which was predicted in the Word left by a loving Creator that wants us to embrace the truth about ourselves an His rightful place in our lives. So ciao, Aram… you man of faith, violator of your own moral code (which you borrowed from believers in God).

                    • AramMcLean

                      You are a poster child for cognitive dissonance, mate. You call yourself and your book ‘loving’ but only because you don’t know what real love is. You’d be better off following Confucius’ or Emerson’s point of view than the one you do. But of course you don’t see that.

                      I understand that you find peace (though it must be continually renewed by reminding yourself how pathetic you are and how god saved you from your horribleness, which isn’t really peace at all. But whatever) through the paradigm you have adopted. Your mind and emotions make everything real about this imaginary creature in the sky. Something good happens – must have been Jesus. Something bad happens – it’s because I’m a sinner.

                      Do you see how you live with an un-falsifiable premise in your skull? You rail on about how impossible evolution is, yet fail to admit that your god is even more impossible. Oh, he exists beyond space and time, you’ll say. Which is the same as saying nothing.

                      There may be some sort of a god-like entity in the world, Mr Fake Name, (or is it Sammy?), I cannot know after all, but it is most certainly not the one in your holy book. There is more chance “that millions and millions of molecules randomly and simultaneous just came together at the right time to form 300 various amino acids to create 1 protein and form the base of 1 cell at the precise time that some spark lit them up” than there is that the god of the bible is not man-made.

                      Anyways, I do know it’s a waste of time to engage with believers like yourself. But you should know, I don’t do it for your sake. After 30 years I know you’re likely much too far down the rabbit hole to ever change. I do it for the silent readers. The lurkers, as it were. The ones too afraid to speak up in your churches and group hypnosis sessions. I speak to show them there is another way.

                      But of course you can’t see this. You mistake my concern for anger, when really it is but an earnest genuine empathy at which you can only begin to guess. You are wasting your energy prostrating yourself before a man-made god. If you were born in Iran, you’d likely be doing it for Allah. If in India, you’d have your pick of gods on any giving day to wail in front of as unworthy. But you were born and raised in a western country and so it is Jesus and YHWH (ignoring the existence of Elohim and Asherah and a host of other old testament gods to make it so) whom you cry out to for mercy from your imaginary sins.

                      I genuinely feel for you, mate. No matter what you may choose to believe. But I feel even more sorry for those you dupe into your madness, day after day, especially those too young to see through the obvious tripe you’re peddling.

                    • STR8UP

                      No conflicts here “mate…” my peace is real and it originates from agreeing with God. You see, I have no problem telling you that I know I am scum. I don’t struggle with self esteem issues because what the Bible says about me is true.

                      After I became an atheist, I saw the depths that I descended to. I had no moral character to speak of, and would not have been surprised if I would’ve ended killing someone for a variety of reasons, even for looking at me the wrong way. There is no delusion here about what I was or was capable of doing.

                      But you want to believe that you aren’t capable of such evil. You want to sell yourself as somebody just full of empathy and love…. but what you have is mush. Real love cares about the truth first, not appeasing people’s feelings. It doesn’t change day to day, even moment to moment, like your feelings do. Love is laying down your life for others, not passing them a tissue. there’s place for empathy, but it is not the standard.

                      And then, there is the honesty issue with you.

                      First you tell someone:

                      “As far as me being on this thread, I admit that I made the mistake of engaging with delusional people again, something that swiftly becomes a lesson in futility, and hence I lost interest.”

                      Then you say:

                      “Anyways, I do know it’s a waste of time to engage with believers like yourself. But you should know, I don’t do it for your sake… I do it for the silent readers. The lurkers, as it were.”

                      How nice to put a noble spin on it… and I can hear all those “ones too afraid to speak in the churches” silently clapping. I won’t even try to analyze that whole scenario, but from my POV, you are losing touch with reality.

                      So here you are again, finding a different reason to keep responding to me. I wonder if you’ll ever face the truth about the lie that your life has become, and how you need to keep beating up on Christians to keep that lie going.

                      No, my name is not Sammy, but why do you need to know my name anyway…? So you can go look it up on FB? Will finding out some “Aha” thing about me help you justify the lies you have convinced yourself to believe? Is that what sustains you… ensuring your superiority over others?

                      And, yes, I did just about every dispicable thing a person can imagine, and yes it was through the power of Christ in my life that I stopped that destructive behavior, and yes dozens of people saw that transformation and became Christians, too, and yes, everyone of them will tell you that they are Christians today, not because of me, but because they have their own evidence of God in their lives.

                      Yet we are all deluded and in conflict within ourselves. Is it possible that maybe the problem is you? Is it possible that maybe your views are just a bit subjective? …maybe just a bit? I doubt that you would open that door even a crack. You appear to be wound way too tight to let a little light in.

                    • AramMcLean

                      Sounds to me like you’re definitely better off being a Christian if the only thing stopping you from killing someone is an imaginary god.
                      Yeah, debating delusional people is a waste of time. The only thing that makes it worth it (besides some of the chuckles in the more crazy moments) is that other people with actual real questions in their heads might read the debate and see who sounds more out of their mind. So not a conflict at all. But noble? Sure, I try :)
                      And here’s a hint: the one who is absolutely convinced there’s a magical pie in the sky, despite all the evidence to contrary, is the one who sounds like a nutter.
                      As for your name, no, I don’t care what it is. I just found a youth ministry site called str8up and the man sharing what a piece of ‘scum’ he is was a man named Sammy who spent 18 years in jail for armed robbery. Sounded rather similar style of thinking to you is all.
                      Anyways mate, I’ll leave you with this last thought. You say you have self-esteem, yet happily call yourself scum. This is called cognitive dissonance. Look it up.
                      In any case, I respond to you personally, unlike some religious folks, also because I find you amusing. Really. You’re just so in earnest, it would be endearing if it wasn’t so tragic.
                      Anyways, you can have the last word if you want it.
                      Cheers mate.
                      Big hugs you big scum bucket you ;)

      • SpeakTruth

        From Ken’s FB Page: “AiG’s Facebook pages are not debate forums such as those you might see in the comments section of a newspaper’s website. As we state on our main AiG Facebook page, the primary purpose of our pages is “to communicate with you better.” As such, it is not intended to be a place for people to debate back and forth.”

        Simply put and to the point, I think.

        For this reason, yes, deletions do happen (no matter how “cordial” they may be). There are forums available for every kind of debate. Choosing to go to and comment negatively on a page with which you don’t agree, when that page specifically states, “If you don’t “like” us, why be here in the first place?” surely shows that that person is seeking an argument not a discussion. Ken could walk circles around any opposing argument, but he won’t stoop to that.

        As for me commenting on this page…there’s a difference in that this post was meant to malign a man of integrity. By the way…a dictionary definition of persecution at http://www.thefreedictionary.com/persecute shows that Ken is in fact, being persecuted.

        • AramMcLean

          You say ‘our main AiG…’ meaning you’re one of the crew busy spewing lies at AiG. Obviously no point talking to you logically then. And no, Ken is NOT being persecuted.
          (Though if you want to claim your definition as correct, then you must also conclude that Ken is persecuting others with his bullshit.)

          ps why be afraid of debate on FB? If your ideas are really true, you should have nothing to fear. But of course, logic has a funny way of getting people to think twice about such obvious foolish ideas as, for example, a wooden boat so big being able to stay in one piece upon the raging waters for more than a few minutes. We know that wooden boats this big are inherently unstable. But of course you’ll spout some nonsense about ‘God can do anything.’
          To which I reply, okay, so why didn’t he just float everyone he wanted to save above the earth on a cloud, and call it a day?
          The inside of your mind must truly be a fascinating study in cognitive dissonance. It’s not good for your mental health in the long run, you should know; human to human.

          • SpeakTruth

            :) After this, I’m finished posting on this thread.
            “Quotes” will show you that I was quoting, and not one of the “crew” (though I’d be honored to be).

            I didn’t write the dictionary, and Ken doesn’t seek out and attack people; others seek him out.
            There’s no fear. And as far as logic I could have a hay day right now.
            As for spewing…you did that quite well.
            Oh, and thank you. I do have a very fascinating mind; it was created by God.

            • AramMcLean

              So proud you are indeed. You don’t even post under your real name (nor your real intentions ;) The fact that you think I was spewing shows me just how illogical your mind is. Your ‘hay day’ would be fascinating to hear I’m sure, from an anthropologist’s point of view. I suggest you listen to this interview on cognitive dissonance. It’s a real eye-opener. And then read her book, if you dare.
              Cheers Mr SpeakWell. All the best

              http://www.forgoodreason.org/carol_tavris_mistakes_were_made

              • Lurker

                Yes, you were spewing. Mainly because your comments are a dead giveaway that you haven’t researched the topic that you are attempting to dispute. Of course God can do anything, but that is rarely, if ever, a fallback position that YECs take. It might be worth your while to actually read some stuff on AiG’s website before showing how ignorant you are regarding the position that you mock. Throwing out straw-man positions to knock down doesn’t make you intellectual or logical. And what makes you think that people would actually want to waste their time trying to correct your lack of research on an FB page? FB and blog comment sections make lousy forums. They are difficult to follow and woefully inappropriate for long drawn out discussions.

                Regarding cognitive dissonance–that should apply to any position of faith, including the secular humanistic faith in man’s fallible opinions. I note that she cautions in the intro blurb there that skeptics need to be skeptical of their own positions as well. With that in mind, how can you be sure of anything? You exist in an amorphous blob of unreality with no foundation for truth. I believe Jesus called that “shifting sand,” as in “a foolish man built his house upon . . .”

                • AramMcLean

                  At least I’m aware that I could be wrong. You are infallible. Which makes debating with you pointless.
                  Though you must know that any boat builder in the world would say the Ark as described in the bible would not be sea worthy. Simple fact

            • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1377173672 Bryan Richards

              You claim your ideas are logically backed but leave the conversation. How quaint.

          • Tim

            To claim and judge that one person or group is “spewing lies” assumes that you have the standard of truth by which you say that. Otherwise it might be you who are “spewing lies” spreading and b***s***. By what standard of truth are you able to judge Ham and AiG?

            • AramMcLean

              Logic and reason say that the bible is a flawed book and therefore the god it purports to uphold is also flawed. Leaving aside the countless contradictions in the bible, how about the fact that its moral codes are barbaric at best. The reality remains – despite your mind-twisting arguments – that the bible condones slavery, genocide, infanticide, and so on… Even your glorious Ten Commandments lumps women in with man’s possessions, after the oxen and the ass of course. Nevermind that it can’t decide between its two different versions why exactly the Sabbath should be kept holy.

              Anyways, I already know that arguing with deluded people is a waste of time. I just had a bit of free time and it’s always amusing to watch people try and defend indefensible things. Still, I should know better.

              All the best, you dirty Sinner you!
              (Admit it, the masochist in you loves being a sinner :)

    • Johnny

      Yes, praise the Lord for men like Ken Ham. So thankful for his ministry. You mock him, but God will have the last word!

      • AramMcLean

        You mock Mohammad with your comment. But Allah will have the last word!

        • MostlyIndependant

          AramMclean, Was that supposed to be a joke or something?

          • AramMcLean

            Did it strike fear in your heart? No? That was the point.

        • http://www.facebook.com/skeptic.ny Skeptic NY

          You mock the Flying Spaghetti Monster with your comment. But his noodley appendage will have the lost word!

      • http://www.facebook.com/DavidfromRedemptionRocks David Evarts

        Indeed, God will have the last word. I do hope that Mr. Ham will repent of his statements before that day comes.

    • Rubble

      Ham does not speak the truth. IMO he knows the truth, then deliberately says otherwise. IOW he’s a Professional Creationist Liar.

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1377173672 Bryan Richards

      I feel sorry for ken ham and what he thinks is true. The most basic of scientific investigation renders many of his ideas as ash.

    • http://www.facebook.com/DavidfromRedemptionRocks David Evarts

      Having it pointed out that your public speech is not biblical, scientific or reflective of our Christian faith is not persecution. Also, having read Mr. Hams biblical, logical and scientific statements I do not see truth there. I wonder, when God finally does have a word with Mr. Ham will Mr. Ham feel he is persecuted?

  • http://www.facebook.com/ctjapkes1 Chris Tjapkes

    Shame! You doubt what God has said and add dare to add to His Word:

  • http://twitter.com/BruceCountryman Bruce Countryman

    Mr McGrath, even your students evaluation of you is very telling of your weakness in the classroom (as well as online). You leave a student with more questions than answers. I’ll take answers.

    • AramMcLean

      You’ll take answers over truth? How manly of you

      • Shirley Lindsey

        Ken Ham’s “answers” are the truth.

        • AramMcLean

          That’s what Pol Pot thought to. Until the day he died he was convinced he’d done right. Does it make it true?

        • http://www.facebook.com/chris.alan.crawford Chris Crawford

          I prefer to think of them as “truth plus”.

    • Nick

      That’s a low blow, man. Oftentimes *life* leaves us with more questions than answers.

      The primary purpose of higher education is to teach you how to think and evaluate sources and concepts and come to your own conclusions. The fact that you want someone to spoon feed you the answer shows me that you missed the point while you were there.

  • dpowers

    Ken Ham invites people to take God at His Word, but shows them the difference between observational science and historical science. How does that oppose the Christian faith?

    • http://www.facebook.com/DavidfromRedemptionRocks David Evarts

      Ken Ham invites people to take God at Ken Hams word. In doing so he distorts the Bible and science. That is in direct opposition to our faith.

  • Tyler

    I support Ken Ham. What a great man of God.

  • Megan

    Ken Ham has put on the armor of God (Ephesians 6:11-17). He will not be swayed from his purpose. He even continues to pray for people who try to malign his character and his message. He is not perfect but tries to lead a Godly life while delivering the message. I would call him a modern day Peter or Paul for his efforts to encourage Christians to stand firm in their faith and the authority of God’s word. Mr. McGrath, how does it feel to know the people who you mock are praying for your salvation so that you may not perish and fall short of the glory of God?

    • http://www.facebook.com/chris.alan.crawford Chris Crawford

      Ken Ham has definitely put on the armor of God. He’s also put on some knee and arm pads, eye protection and thick boots just in case, you know, God’s armor can’t block everything he thinks it should.

    • Joshua Rose

      Ken Ham’s armor is thickest around his eyes, ears, and brain. Have to be sure that no objective facts sneak into his carefully constructed imaginary “reality”….

    • jwalker_cht

      Since Dr. McGrath is a Christian brother insofar as I can tell, praying for his salvation is at best a waste of your time and at worst mocking God.

  • Ben Masters

    Ken Ham’s ministry (AiG) is by far the most relevant and effective evangelization taking place in the world today. The Bible should be our SOLE authority in all that it teaches, NOT man-invented myths such as long ages and evolution.

    • http://twitter.com/jonhendry Jonathan W. Hendry

      “The Bible should be our SOLE authority in all that it teaches”

      So slavery’s okay? Are you lobbying the government to allow slavery, because as a Christian, you’re allowed to?

    • Where?

      Where in the bible does it say how old the earth is? Where in the bible does it say when the universe began?

    • ngotts

      I hope you’re not wearing any cotton-rayon, wool-rayon or other mixed fibre garments when you write that.

  • Nathan F Conkey

    This is tagged ‘humour’. What’s that about

    • AramMcLean

      Because Ken Ham makes people laugh.

  • Shirley Lindsey

    People want to deny there is a Creator God; that way they think they won’t have to answer to Him, but they will.

    • AramMcLean

      Why are religious people always convinced that everyone thinks there’s a god but some just don’t want to obey him, or whatever? The fact is that there is simply no evidence for a Christian god, or any other god for that matter. And the doctrine of sin that your religion bellows so mightily is the biggest lie of all. We are not born sinners. Rather we are flawed human animals who are all simply trying to make the best of it. Believing we’re sinners only creates self-loathing and self-pity in otherwise perfectly wonderful people. Then when some ‘find’ god, as it appears you think you have, it creates, worst of all, a disgusting self-righteousness disguised as love. Mein Gott, but has anything perverted the meaning of love more than religion?

      • Tim

        I see evidence for God wherever I look.
        The doctrine of sin has enabled me to find life and freedom in Jesus Christ!

        • AramMcLean

          Did you miss my last two sentences above…

      • CultDebunker

        We teach our kids how to be good. We teach them the difference between what is right, and what is wrong. Children don’t need to be taught how to be bad…they inherently are. They will lie and steal all on their own, if left uncorrected. You say we aren’t born sinners? Bullshit. There is no ONE shred of evidence for evolution….not in the fossil records, and not even in genetics….Nothing has ever deviated from it’s own species….dogs will always remain dogs….cats will always remain cats….Never, do we see a transitional form between a fish a reptile in the fossil record. Why? Because there is none. We will never find a missing link. Why? Because it’s missing. Convice me that evolution is real. Try it. Attempt to convert me using facts….it’s a fool’s errand to believe such bullshit.

        • AramMcLean

          You’ve got some issues, mate. Hope you work them out.

          Start with this page:

          http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/101_evidences_for_a_young_age_of_the_Earth_and_the_universe

          actually read the words. And then we’ll see how you’re doing. Of course, you weren’t reasoned into your faith, why should I expect to be able to reason you out of it?

          Keep on believing your pseudo-science for all I care. Just please, if you have kids, don’t teach them the same BS that messed up your head so much.

          Back to de bunker with you Cult boy! :) and a happy winter solstice to you, though I think you’re in the wrong half of the year me boy

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

          Please do not use vulgar language on this blog.

          Simply saying there is no evidence doesn’t mean there isn’t any. What books on the subject written by mainstream scientists, perhaps in particular by Christians among them such as Francis Collins, Ken Miller, or Francisco Ayala, have you read, and what seemed to you to be lacking in their presentation of the extensive evidence?

        • Joshua

          “Never, do we see a transitional form between a fish a reptile in the fossil record.” Uh, which fossil record are you looking at? Several transitional forms have been documented between fish and reptiles. Also between reptiles and birds, between lizards and snakes, between legged mammals and whales…. Look at the REAL fossil record, the complete one used in responsible museums and biology texts, not the cherry-picked farce that Ham and Hovind and Baugh and Comfort and the rest of the poor delusional souls have spoon-fed you. God gave you the greatest brain of any species on Earth; quit insulting His gift by wasting it on nonsense.

      • CultDebunker

        Merry Christmas.

  • Independent Voter

    I also thank Ken Ham for speaking the truth, in the face of the hatred and bullying from the tolerant, diverse left.

  • Bear

    Interesting miss quote from scripture. I think Mr. McGrath is the one who is not believing Moses and Prophets…. Ken Ham is actually listening to the Voice from heaven. And he is also believing the Bible which was written by God through Moses, the Prophets and Apostles.

  • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

    A large number of people have come here from Ken Ham’s page simply to state their support for him and then depart (as followers of cult leaders often do). But I really hope that some may actually interact here on the substantive points. For those interested in reading it, my reply to Ken Ham’s Facebook post is here: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2013/04/ken-ham-vs-jesus.html

  • Informed Christian

    I cannot believe people bought the Young Earth Creation lie. If the Earth really was created on the evening of December 22nd, 4004BC, as the theory states, then why hasn’t creationism offered any viable evidence that directly contradicts the evidence science has offered up? Why can science refute beyond a reasonable doubt every single junk science lie put forth by Young Earth Creation “scientists” but Young Earth Creation “scientists” cannot refute science without saying: even though there are holes in our theories that are laughable at best “God did it” so it must make sense somehow even if it sounds like babbling idiotic nonsense.

    I am a very devout Christian, have my own ministry, and teach the bible. I have read many versions of the Bible and have read Genesis Chapters 1 and 2 all the way through (multiple translations) and have never found the age of the earth in there anywhere, but somehow exact dates and ages that contradict proven science are to be found there? It’s a joke put forth by fundamentalists who are no more christian than secular humanists. They have turned the bible into a science and history text book and so they worship (junk) science and (mostly factually incorrect) history. Bible literalists forget that never in the history of the Bible has it been interpreted literally before the 20th century. Even theologians who lived before Jesus’s time didn’t take the Genesis accounts of the creation of the universe as literal. It’s all nonsense put forth by people who are incapable of understanding the bible, so they created an interpretation simple enough for them to understand…then they went around and looked for ways to substantiate it’s accuracy. They did this instead of taking the time to learn the true message of the Bible.

    If you interpret the Bible literally you’d have to believe that the earth was flat. It’s in there. Anyway, if the earth was really 6016 years old and dinosaurs did live along side modern animals and humans then why has no one ever found a single fossil of a single modern animal in the stomach of a fossilized dinosaur…ever? They’ve found lots of animal fossils in the stomachs of fossilized dinosaurs, but never any modern ones. Explain that…and I mean in a way that makes sense and without using the “God did it” fallacy.

    It’s funny that YEC is based upon “if the genealogies in the Bible have no gaps in them”…if…if!…if!! You’re “science” is based on an “if”? Get real, guys. real science is based on facts and not “ifs”. I laugh because YEC believers are usually the least educated as far as proper interpretation of the Bible.

    Ken Ham is a liar and is giving educated Christians a very bad name!

    • http://www.facebook.com/people/Anthony-Lawson/100002721639251 Anthony Lawson

      Can I offer one criticism of what you wrote, Informed Christian? I do not know any YEC who actually believes that the earth was created on Dec. 22nd 4004 BC, the “theory” does not state that. When you make those kinds of statements you discredit anything else you have to say.

    • psalmriter

      Have you not read? Jesus took Genesis literally… “Have you not read…”, “It is written…”, “Moses wrote of me…”. Over and over, and he took the theologians of his time (pharasies and sadducees) to task for not believing “Moses and the prophets”. But to say the Bible teaches the earth is flat?!!? Have you not read:

      Job 26:10 ” He drew a circular horizon on the face of the waters, At the boundary of light and darkness.” (the Terminator (solar), a moving line that separates the illuminated side and the dark side of a planetary body)
      Job 26:7 ” He stretches out the north over empty space; He hangs the earth on nothing.” (confirmed by NASA and various other space programs)
      Isaiah 40:22 ” It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.” (16 times the Bible says He spreads or stretches the heavens, confirmed by astronomy)
      Proverbs 8:27 ” When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,” (speaking of wisdom, again describing the solar Terminator)

      Perhaps an appropriate scripture at this poaunt may be:

      James 3:1 NKJV
      “My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.”

      Per

      • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

        I am glad to finally encounter someone who is consistent and treats the references to the Earth as a circle as seriously and as literally as the other details! NASA does not confirm that, but still.

        Whether Jesus took Genesis 2 literally is an interesting question. Here are some thoughts of mine on the topic: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/08/did-jesus-understand-genesis-2-literally.html

        • Psalmriter

          All you have to do is to look at any image of earth taken from any of the NASA missions to see that “He hangs the earth on nothing” is accurate, or do you mean NASA does not confirm the earth is a sphere? Are you saying that the evidence is not strong enough and you believe the earth is flat? I’m sorry, I misunderstood, I did not know this was a flat earther site. I learned a long time ago there is no reasoning with you guys on either scripture or science.

          John 5:44-47 “How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you–Moses, in whom you trust. For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

          • http://twitter.com/jonhendry Jonathan W. Hendry

            What does the north stretch out over?

            It isn’t empty space, It stretches out over the core of the Earth and below that *the south*. If it stretched out over empty space, that would imply a flat Earth. Or, to be charitable, maybe a hollow Earth, which the Earth isn’t, anyway.

      • http://twitter.com/jonhendry Jonathan W. Hendry

        “He stretches out the north over empty space;”

        This is simply nonsense in the context of a non-flat Earth. In the context of a *flat* Earth, it almost makes sense – the Earth stretching out northward as a plane, over the void of space.

        But the “north” is over the planet’s innards, not over “empty space”.

        Hint: the Bible describes a circular horizon because that’s what you see as you stand in a place and turn around. Your gaze sweeps out a circular area with a circular perimeter.

        You can certainly have a circular horizon on a flat surface.

        Which is to say, the evidence provided by NASA does not support the Bible, because the Bible clearly isn’t describing a sphere, let alone an oblate spheroid like the Earth.

  • davebunnell

    Dude, you’re the one who doesn’t believe the Bible. Ken Ham does believe it. That verse is about you, not him.

    • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath

      Even the Devil can quote Scripture. And every sort of heretic claims to be not merely a Bible-believer but the only one who understands the Bible correctly. I would encourage you to read some works of Biblical scholarship written by professors connected with whatever your own denomination happens to be, if you are too suspicious of others.

  • Psalmriter

    I think a better paraphrase of Luke 16:31 would be: If you won’t believe Genesis, you won’t believe Jesus, who did rise from the dead. It is at least staying in the context of the scripture. Our attitude should be http://www.reverbnation.com/play_now/song_15810772

    • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1377173672 Bryan Richards

      No reason to believe genesis.

      • Psalmriter

        For an atheist, of course there is no reason to think that you would think otherwise, it goes counter to your religion. However, for someone who claims to be a devout (totally committed to a cause or belief) Christian, he should use Jesus as his example. Jesus certainly took Genesis as literal history, He quoted it often as such.

        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1377173672 Bryan Richards

          I don’t have a religion. Facts counter the book of genesis. I’m sure many people thought genesis was literally true. Who believes a thing does not affect whether it is true or not, that is an argument from authority.

        • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/ James F. McGrath
        • http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1377173672 Bryan Richards

          I don’t have a religion.

          I’m sure many people took genesis seriously. Genesis should not be taken seriously depending on who believed it. It should be subjected to the evidence, and it comes up severely lacking.

  • http://www.facebook.com/DavidfromRedemptionRocks David Evarts

    I’m assuming that as Ken Hams fame and career are predicated on building an alternative reading of the Bible and a view of science that contradicts what God has revealed in his creation, that he would be immune to the prodding of the Holy Spirit and even God himself asking Ken to just stop directly. I think that we need to kindly teach Kens followers from the Bible and science, but we need to directly tall Mr. Ham and the other anti-evolutionary leaders “shame on you.”


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