Romney Takes Stand on Abortion (and another, and another, and…)

It’s hard to avoid the abortion discussions on this site.  You’d think from the amount of digital ink spilled, that was all Jesus ever talked about.  But the arguments always boil down to the fact that Democrats don’t say the right things about abortion (even though abortions have gone down under Democratic Presidents the last 30 years and up under Republican ones, and teen pregnancy has plumetted under Obama), but Republicans do.

I’ve already explained why anyone who is truly cares about protecting the unborn (let alone the born) should vote Democrat, but I won’t belabor those points.  Instead, let’s look at the alternative.  Elections are always choices, and so let’s take a look at Romney’s position.  To set the context, it’s important to remember that Romney is the guy who smiled as he lied to the Catholic Bishops, National Association of Evangelicals, and numerous other pastors about his views on the important role of government in protecting the least of these.  If you haven’t viewed the video contrasting his statement to pastors on the poor with his comments to rich funders, you have to watch it.

But like Charlie Brown and Lucy, many conservative Christians think that Romney will finally be the Republican President who doesn’t pull the abortion football away once he gets their vote.  So let’s take a look at the strong and definitive positions Romney has taken on this issue that so many Americans are passionate about.  Romney, in his own words:

Massachusetts Senate Campaign: NARAL Romney
1994: Romney: “I believe that abortion should be safe and legal” and “I have since the time my mom took that position when she ran in 1970.”
1994: Romney said he’d ensure abortion in Massachusetts was “safe, legal, and free for someone who can’t afford it.”
1994: Romney On Roe V. Wade: “I do not want to change it, overturn it, reverse it.”

Governor’s Race in Massachusetts: Making His Pro-Choice Values Clear
2002: Romney: “I’ve been very clear on that, I will preserve and protect a woman’s right to choose, and am devoted and dedicated to honoring my word in that regard.”
2002: Romney: “Let me make this very clear: I will preserve and protect a woman’s right to choose.”
2002: Romney: “I do not take the position of a Pro-Life candidate.”

Finishing in MA and Looking National: Mr. Changing Sides
2005: Romney: “I am pro-life” except “in cases of incest, rape, and to save the life of the mother.”
2006: Romney: “I’d like a state to have the choice to be Pro-Life” but “if another state wants to be pro- choice that would be its right.”

Beginning of his 1st Presidential Run: Mr. Pander
2006: Romney later said he would sign a bill outlawing abortion, “even in cases of rape or incest.”
2007: Romney said he would be “delighted” to sign a bill banning “all abortions.”
2007: Romney said he supported a nation-wide ban on abortion as part of the Republican Party Platform.

2nd Presidential Run: Mr. GOP Moderate
2011: Romney: “abortion should be limited to only instances of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother.”

Primary Romney Realizing Moderation Wasn’t a Winning Strategy in the GOP Primary
2011: Romney: “the supreme court should reverse Roe V. Wade.”
2011: Romney said he “absolutely” would have supported amending the Massachusetts Constitution when Governor (2002-2006) to define human life with all rights as beginning at conception.
2012: Romney: “I’m a Pro-Life Person and I’ll be a Pro-Life President.”

After Primary, Appealing to Swing Voters: Mr. Back to the Middle
2012: Romney: “there’s no legislation with regards to abortion that I’m familiar with that would become part of my agenda.”

Later that Same Day, After Backlash from Conservatives: Mr. Right Wing Again
2012 (later that same day): Campaign: “Governor Romney would of course support legislation aimed at providing greater protections for life.”
2012: Romney: “I am a Pro-Life candidate, will be a Pro-Life president…I will take pro-life measures.”

This Past Month Courting Swing State Voters: Mr. Back to the Middle for Real This Time
2012: Spokeswoman on Romney Campaign Ad: “Those ads saying Mitt Romney would ban abortions and contraception seemed a bit extreme. He thinks abortion should be an option.”
Campaign spokesman to swing voters in Ohio: “Roe v. Wade would be safe” in a Romney Administration and “remain the law of the land.”

So for all those out there ignoring all the issues Jesus focused on because of their concern for the unborn, I’ll finish with one final quote:

Lucy: “Come on Charlie Brown, this time it will be different!”

Twitter: SappEric

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  • Frank

    It’s an anathema to the Christian faith to vote for a party that has abortion on demand in its platform. Abortion has become an issue here because there is absolutely no way a Christian in good faith can vote democrat. So they need to try and justify their position, which has been an utter failure. But hey if that’s how you can sleep at night while over 21,000 innocent unborn children are killed each week, 97% due to reasons of convenience.

    • Sundown

      Not according to the Apostles Creed, which, despite the wishes of Republican operatives like yourself, doesn’t reference abortion!

      • Frank

        So then tell us how you come to the conclusion that Jesus would support abortion. Tell us how abortion brings about the Kingdom of God. Tell us ab out how a Christian who votes in support of abortion is voting their faith. Please tell us. if you can, so that we can understand.

        • Sundown

          I never once said that Jesus would support abortion. But you said that no Christian could vote for someone whose policies don’t outright ban abortion. That is a lie, and lying is a far worse sin than abortion.

          • ToronadoBlue

            Sundown,
            First of lying is a sin, just as murder is a sin.

            As a Christian, I cannot support a party that wants to legalize pedophilia.
            As a Christian, I cannot support a party that wants to legalize slavery.
            As a Christian, I cannot support a party that wants to legalize banning Christianity.
            As a Christian, I cannot support a party that wants to legalize child prostitution.
            As a Christian, I cannot support a party that wants to legalize restricting my right to worship God.
            The list is short, but there are several clear boundaries that as Christians we shouldn’t support.

            Therefore, if you believe that each child is created in God’s image, then as a Christian, we cannot support a party that wants to terminate it’s existence.

      • Frank M

        Sundown , so lying is a worse sin than abortion ? Please tell us how that’s so? If I lied to your momma to her face it would be worse than chopping her up into pieces and getting the medical waste company to get rid of her remains as medical waste ? The Dems don’t just hesitate to ban abortion they advance it as in the case of Obamacare . They fight to reduce or limit it any way tooth and nail as in the case of Harry Reid and so many other Dems when in the spring budget battle they told the Reps ” if you defund Planned Parenthood this budget won’t pass ” . They were willing to shut down the government rather that defund PP ! Millions of people will pay for it to make it even more acceptible . Regardless of whether they want to or not . So PLEASE explain how Frank is lying ?

      • Frank M

        Sundown , would you vote for someone that’s in favor of genocide like in Rwanda or the Jewish Holocaust ? You might answer no , of course not . And you’d be right of course . But somehow you can overlook the murder of babies in the womb and embryonic stem cell research as if they’re not real to you . Also in euthanasia the Dems have become the proponents/advocates of murder . Why can’t you see them as real ? I really don’t know why you would say no to one but not the other . I’m assuming you would say no to mass murder in these foreign lands ( 1 million in Rwanda ) but yes to abortion (1.3 million a year in U.S. in surgical abortion alone ). Either a) murder is totally acceptible in your view ,b) murder is acceptible in some circumstances 0r c) you don’t see the unborn as humans . Or maybe d) the purported good that the Dems do outweight any evil ? How long do you think that we can keep killing our young and it won’t have any affect on us ? Or the wrath of God won’t descend on us ? We’re branchimg into infanticide and child abuse is on the rise . When we decide to devalue our children who else is next (euthanasia). And what do you make of these advisory payment panels in Obamacare ? Can you trust these people that don’t see the humanity of the unborn see it in the elderly or handicapped . 90% of Down babies that are prediagnosed are aborted . Who else is next ? You ? Me ?

  • ToronadoBlue
  • ToronadoBlue

    we do know where Obama stands:
    In 2001, Illinois Senators introduced legislation to care for children who survived a practice known as “induced abortions,” where a surviving baby is left unattended after labor is induced. State Senator Obama opposed this legislation.

    While a Senator, 3 bills were introduced regarding Partial Birth Abortion.
    SB1093 – If during the abortion, if there was a chance that the baby would survive, a Dr. must be present.
    SB1094 – Parents have right to sue to protect the child’s rights.
    SB1095 – If baby was alive after abortion, it shall then be legally a person.
    Senator Barak Obama was the only person in the committee to oppose the bill.

    While running for election, Senator Obama says he would not yield on the issue of protecting women’s right to choose to terminate pregnancies.

    During a debate in 2007, Senator Obama was asked if he supported partial-birth or late term abortion. He didn’t say yes or no.

    As a US senator, he did cosponsor ‘The Freedom of Choice’ Act which would have further extended abortion rights.

    Throughout his career I cannot find any ‘pro-life’ votes with regard to abortion.

    With another pro-life judge on the Supreme Court, there might be a chance to overturn Roe V Wade or restrict it further. With Obama, we know that we are going to get a judge that is pro-choice. With Romney, we are ‘likely’ to get a pro-life judge, especially if GOP seats are maintained.

    I wish I could reshuffle the deck with regards to candidates, but these are the one’s we are stuck with.

  • ToronadoBlue

    FACT-CHECKING ERIC
    CLAIM: ” abortions have gone down under Democratic Presidents the last 30 years and up under Republican ones”

    Truth: Notice that Eric stipulated in the past 30 years. That is because recently I called him on ignoring abortion statistics during the Carter Administration (which began in 1977 whereas Roe v Wade became law in 1973)

    During the Carter admin, abortion rose 31%. Also notice that the house and senate were in DEM hands during that administration.

    During the Clinton admin abortion dropped. Eric is correct on this point, but what he won’t tell you is that abortion (total number) began dropping during Bush I’s presidency in 1990. Furthermore, there was a bump up for Clinton in 1996 (abortions as a percentage of pregnancies).

    Since the abortion rate (as a percentage of pregnancies) began declining since 1990 — err correction, 1983, these are the only years that the rate went up:
    1996: from 25.8% to 25.9%
    2008: from 21.9% to 22.2%
    I do not have any abortion data after 2008.

    Eric is playing with the data and fudging the facts to make Obama look good. I believe Jesus would refer to it as ‘bearing false witness’. He is not taking into account that the population is growing and the fact that there have been small shifts towards prolife positions.

    Eric… can you prove me wrong on what I wrote above?

    • Eric Sapp

      Carter was President when Roe began to be enacted. Doctors weren’t suddently trained in abortion and hospitals equipped to perform them as soon as the court case was decided. Heck, the GOP didn’t even have abortion in it’s platform until 1976. So of course legal abortions would jump up during his tenure. And yes, abortions sky-rocketed under Bush 1 and leveled off at the end of his tenure. US deficits went down at the end of Obama’s first term too, and yet I don’t hear your side claiming Obama is good on the debt. I never said or implied that abortion numbers got worse each subsequent year under each Republican President. But the number sure did go up during their terms! I’m not quite sure why you’re quoting rates (except they are a way to hide the real numbers). Are you concerned about unborn children or percentages? Absolute numbers are what matter when you’re talking lives. The number of abortions went up under the Republican Presidents and down under the Democratic. The reason is b/c unwanted pregnancies go up under Republicans b/c of all their bad economic and family planning policies. That leads to more abortions, but not everyone who has an unwanted pregnancy will abort it. So when a lot more people are having unwanted kids and some are keeping them, rates will go up and down. But when you are talking about saving lives of the unborn, what matters is actual numbers, not some demographic percentage. And as you said, my claims about Republican and Democratic administrations are correct.

      • ToronadoBlue

        INCORRECT, abortions were being performed well before Carter. We’ve even had abortions in the US going back to 1932.

        The reason I used Abortion Rate instead of total numbers was because it was a good gauge of comparing different time frames. As the population grows, the more pregnancies. However I am completely fine with using Total Abortions.

        If you want to use those numbers (total abortions), you’ll find that numbers have been decreasing since 1990 (halfway thru Bush 1′s term). The following are the exceptions.

        1996 1,365,700 (up from 1,359,440 the previous year) (Clinton Term)
        2006 1,242,200 (up from 1,206,200 the previous year) (Bush 2 term)
        2008 1,212,350 (up from 1,209,640 the previous year) (Bush 2 term)

        If you’ll notice….It will be hard for you to admit… but abortion was lower under Dubya than Clinton.

        Is any of my data above incorrect?

        You keep saying that abortion ‘skyrockets’ under the Republicans (or at least Bush1). Where is your data to back you up?

        Do you have any data that proves that there were more abortions under Bush 2 than Clinton?

  • eric

    Frank, I don’t think I could have asked for a better affirmation of the talk vs action. So you’ll vote gop bc it’s in their platform even when their president is promising his actions will continue “abortion on demand” and we know his policies will increase their number. So pro-life is just a label without any real-world application…

    • ToronadoBlue

      Just as some people will use ‘christian’ as a label without any real world application.

    • Frank

      Eric the GOP has done more to limit abortion than the party that has abortion on demand in their platform. Keep trying to justify your unjustifiable position. Your dancing around the issue continues to weaken your position, as if its wasnt weak enough already.

      Why not just come out and say that “I am going to do nothing to stop the 21,000 murders that happen weekly and instead focus on enabling and justifying it.” At least we would be able to call you honest.

      • Sarah

        And you think it’s honest to vote for someone who has stated opposing views on abortion SOMETIMES ON THE SAME DAY? You think it’s honest to say “Let’s ban all abortions!” knowing that abortions happened before they were legal and would continue to happen if they were made legal again? You think it’s honest to vote for a party who says they are tough on abortions but has never attempted to overturn Roe vs Wade… even when they said they were going to if they got into power? And lastly, you think it’s honest to say you oppose abortion, but support a party that takes every chance it gets to limit the one thing that has been shown to limit abortion – contraception?

        Gee whiz. That’s some strange definition of honesty you have there.

        I am pro life, but I am 1. pro all life, not just till it gets born (when the death penalty is banned even for minors, then we’ll talk… and you know what? 21,000 abortions per week? I’m not happy about that. Not at all. But 21,000 children died TODAY around the world, and some 2/3 of those were preventable. Got hot under the collar about that, recently? Or does your pro life stance only apply to American children?) and 2. I support the measures that actually slow abortion rates, like sex education and contraception, not those which just ensure abortions would be done on the quiet, on desperate women, by unscrupulous doctors.

        Frankly, I’m sick of the attitude that seems to think “pro life” is only concerned with the 9 months before birth.

        • ToronadoBlue

          Sarah says: “And you think it’s honest to vote for someone who has stated opposing views on abortion SOMETIMES ON THE SAME DAY?”

          –Fair point, Romney hasn’t been as consistent on abortion as I’d like. I don’t like it at all.

          Lets look at what Obama has done:

          While a Senator in Illinois, 3 bills were introduced regarding Partial Birth Abortion.
          SB1093 – If during the abortion, if there was a chance that the baby would survive, a Dr. must be present.
          SB1094 – Parents have right to sue to protect the child’s rights.
          SB1095 – If baby was alive after abortion, it shall then be legally a person.
          Senator Barak Obama was the only person in the committee to oppose the bill.

          Sarah says: “You think it’s honest to vote for a party who says they are tough on abortions but has never attempted to overturn Roe vs Wade”

          – You can’t overturn Roe v Wade without enough pro-life justices on the Supreme Court- and even then it only decides on cases that is appealed to it. Abortion is too-easily available because of the Democrats. Is it honest to continue to support a party that believes it should be easily available… as a “pro-life” person?

          Sarah says: “I support the measures that actually slow abortion rates, like sex education and contraception,..”

          I believe birth control should be cheaply available in drug stores everywhere. And if desired, a sexually active person can obtain more effective remedies from their doctor. I believe people need education on sex, and with the internet at our fingertips, we can provide that to them cheaply.

          Sarah says: “Frankly, I’m sick of the attitude that seems to think “pro life” is only concerned with the 9 months before birth.”

          I’m sick of the attitude of claiming to be honestly pro-life, but voting to allow the easy slaughter of our sons and daughters. That’s some strange definition of honesty you have there.

  • Jeannette

    That abortion is such a hot topic for choosing President, shows up as irrelevant. One side believes it is a woman’s choice, while the other believes it’s okay in some instances. Republican or Democrat; both believe in abortion.

    • Frank

      Well this certainly shows the ignorance around this issue. Well done Dems for muddying the waters so that some Christians can mistakenly think they are voting through their faith by voting Democratic. You will have much to answer for around this issue.

    • ToronadoBlue

      Jeannette,
      Fair enough, but one candidate believes in abortion for any reason and the other side doesn’t. Neither candidate perfect, but one a better choice.

      • Jeannette

        Abortion is abortion; justifying one over the other doesn’t change the results.

        • ToronadoBlue

          I’m not justifying anything, they are both wrong. Getting 80% is better than getting 0%.

          • http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithfuldemocrats/2012/09/if-you-are-truly-pro-life-youd-vote-democrat/ eric

            80%? Romney2002: “I’ve been very clear on that, I will preserve and protect a woman’s right to choose, and am devoted and dedicated to honoring my word in that regard.”

          • ToronadoBlue

            Yes, with Romney, I’ll 80% of what I want in the candidate concerning Pro-life issues.
            With Obama, if you believe in the sanctity of life, you’ll get none.

            The comments above was when he was running for Governor in the bluest of states. Since then it’s appeared he has become pro-life.
            http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/falsifying-romneys-abortion-stance-again/

            Naturally, candidates use specific comments when addressing different groups. Another reason I can’t stand politicians. And for whats worth, I can bring up a dozen different changes in Obama.

          • ToronadoBlue

            Yes, with Romney, I’ll get 80% of what I want in the candidate concerning Pro-life issues.
            With Obama, if you believe in the sanctity of life, you’ll get none.

            The comments above was when he was running for Governor in the bluest of states. Since then it’s appeared he has become more pro-life.
            http://www.factcheck.org/2012/07/falsifying-romneys-abortion-stance-again/

            Naturally, candidates use specific comments when addressing different groups. Another reason I can’t stand politicians. And for whats worth, I can bring up a dozen different changes in Obama.

  • Eric Sapp

    How quickly we get off topic…so when the Romney campaign puts tens of millions of dollars behind TV ads saying Romney believes “abortion should be an option” and Romney says he’s not planning any legislation or action as President on abortion, explain to me why someone who wants to end abortion should ignore all other issues and vote for Romney?

  • Sus

    Is abortion really the biggest the problem in the United States today, November 3, 2012?

    I think all this energy would be better spent on why abortion is considered a viable option. If we solved all the issues of why a woman would CHOOSE an abortion, the numbers would go down substantially. Making abortion illegal will do nothing to solve the issues of why a woman would choose abortion.

    When I see that our public schools are cutting core classes and class sizes of 45 kids in a biology class, I can’t/won’t put abortion above that.

    The conversation should change from “ban abortions” to “solving the issues of why abortion is an option”.

    As to what Jesus said and thought about abortion, we don’t know because that wasn’t recorded anywhere.

    Romney will say and has said anything that he thinks the current audience wants to hear. I think if he’s re-elected his nickname will be Bush III. The extreme right wingers will be charge just as they were in charge when Bush II was President.

    Obama follows his agenda. Not what the democratic cronies want.

    • Eric Sapp

      Agreed Sus. Even if the GOP Holy Grail was achieved and Roe was overturned, all that would do is kick the decision on whether abortion is legal back to the states. And if you look at states that might outlaw abortion—states where their legislatures have tried to limit abortion in some way or where 50%+ of the population IDs as pro-life—as one might imagine those 18 states account for only a small portion of all abortions performed in this country: only around 10%.

      So if Roe was over turned and all 18 of those states completely outlawed abortion and none of the women in those states went across the border to get an abortion, the most we could hope to see is a 10% reduction in abortion. Now compare that to the fact that decades of demographic data show that if we cut the number of women living near poverty in half, we would see a 30% reduction in abortion.

      So putting aside all the other issues that get a lot more attention in the Bible and the fact that Jesus said he’d judge us on how we treated the poor, even if all you care about is protecting the unborn, it’s pretty clear Republicans aren’t the right choice there. If what you care about is talking about protecting the unborn and saying abortion shouldn’t happen, then the GOP is the obvious pick.

      • ToronadoBlue

        @Eric
        Eric Stated: “Even if the GOP Holy Grail was achieved and Roe was overturned, all that would do is kick the decision on whether abortion is legal back to the states.”

        This is true and from what I understand abortion will be banned or somewhat restricted in as many as 30 states. Therefore Eric makes the point that a pregnant woman will drive to where it is legal to have her child’s life terminated. In other words, what Eric seems to be implying is ‘Why bother making it illegal?’

        My answer is, because it is the right thing to do. What Eric won’t admit to is that Democratic states will fight against any attempt to saving these children’s lives. More over, the activists will be working in the states where it is banned in order to legalize it. Wherever abortion is allowed, I believe it is our Christian duty to fight it.

        Let me bring up another thought as an example,… are homosexual activists satisfied with same sex marriage laws in only a few states? Or do they think that the right thing to do is to legalize it in all states? If RvW is overturned, pro-death advocates will be working in pro-life states to legalize abortion. Just wanted to iterate that the Roe v Wade is only a stepping stone and I recognize that Democrats will fight to keep it legal.

        ******************

        Eric Stated: “If we cut the number of women living near poverty in half, we would see a 30% reduction in abortion.”

        Not always, even with Sweden’s high tax rates and very generous social programs, their abortion rates bounce between 24.6% and 25.8% for the past 10 years. It has been pretty much near that range since 1975 with no signs of decline (as compared to the US which has been in a general decline since 1983). Generous social programs do not equal low abortion rates.

        ******************
        Eric Stated: “the fact that Jesus said he’d judge us on how we treated the poor,”
        This is true, we are going to be judged for what do for those who can’t help themselves. I’d definitely include unborn children in that category. Why won’t you Eric?

    • ToronadoBlue

      @Sus
      1200000 children slaughtered every year (most because they are inconvenient) is not a big enough problem for you?

      At what point does it become a problem for you?

      1200001?

      999999999?

      If the Democrats were talking about banning abortion, as well as solving problems regarding classroom sizes, you’d might have a point.

      • Sus

        1 is too many for me ToronadoBlue. As I said in a previous comment the issues surrounding abortion need to be solved. Until those issues are solved, banning abortion isn’t the solution.

        It isn’t up to me or you to decide for someone else whether a pregnancy is inconvenient or not. I heard an argument this weekend about abortion. Someone was talking about a 25 year old that had 7 abortions and how outrageous that was. It is outrageous. However, how can we force someone like that to carry a pregnancy safely? She boozes and does drugs and said she wouldn’t quit if pregnant. Yes, she should have been on birth control. However, the Catholic agenda wants contraception outlawed too.

        I think we should stay out of people’s medicine cabinets and their bedrooms.

        • ToronadoBlue

          @Sus,
          Thank you for your comments. You sound very since in your belief. You are correct in that there will be irresponsible people that will have multiple pregnancies. It is sad and sometimes, there is just very little that we can do.

          If I may, I’d like to ask you to think about this differently and try to see it from a different angle. Abortion is an evil. It kills an innocent human life that is completely dependent upon others for its survival.

          Lets talk about another evil. Pedophilia. We may not be able to ever eradicate it with laws, but we would be foolish to ever legalize it. We can come up with all sorts of programs and we might only be able to prevent a few. But because of the type of evil it is, it would be unChristian to allow it to happen.

          Lets talk about murder. Again, we may not be able to ever eradicate it with laws, but we would be foolish to ever legalize it. We are not going to prevent every murder, but because it is the taking of innocent life it would be unChristian to allow it to happen.

          My mother was extremely poor and had an abusive husband, she could have aborted me.
          My wife’s mother was too old to give birth. She could have aborted her.
          Several children that I work with through various programs, could have been easily aborted. One in particular has problems due to his mother’s drug use. Each of these kids could have been aborted.
          My new adoptive son, born to a woman similar to what you’ve described – could have been aborted.
          In each of our situations, the pro-choice crowd would have been ok with our murders.

          Thankfully we weren’t, and Praise God that we were brought together to bring joy to each other’s lives.

          FYI, I don’t agree with Catholics on contraceptives.

          • Sus

            I do think abortion kills an innocent being. For me, the evil part is why society puts someone in the position of having an abortion. It should be noted that not all abortions are because of being poor. There are many reasons for abortion and it isn’t up to me to judge.

            Pedophilia – Certainly it shouldn’t be legal. In terms of stopping it, this country has gone to great lengths to punish pedophilia. In the past, the way the culture was, victims didn’t feel comfortable talking about it. Often nothing happened to the perpetrator. That has certainly changed and victims are encouraged and welcome to talk about it. If you compare pedophilia with abortion, the issues surrounding abortion have barely changed.

            Although abortion is killing, I don’t think it is the same thing as murdering someone that has already been born. I’ll have to think about that.

            Th argument saying abortion shouldn’t be legal because you could have been aborted is baseless to me. The evil people in the could have been aborted.

          • ToronadoBlue

            @Sus
            Could you explain further what you mean about ‘The evil part is society putting someone into a position of abortion’?
            I’m having a hard time understanding that. For instance, I can’t go out and commit some sort of evil crime and claim that society made me do it. Or to commit pedophilia and say that society made me do it. I’m not sure I follow you.
            I’m sure there were some people who had slaves and said it was ok, because society said it was ok.

            Yes, some evil people could have been aborted. However as a christian, I recognize that we are all made in God’s image and have potential to serve his kingdom. Personally I’d like to think that all people have at least some good in them.

  • Sus

    Thank you for the statistics. I can’t wait for the election to be over. I’m so stressed out!

    • ToronadoBlue

      @ Sus,
      I can’t wait for it to be over with either. I’m not a political junkie very much and talking about politics makes me uncomfortable. Just a few more days and it’ll be over with.

  • Jeannette

    The Democrats pretend that a Romney victory would mean the end of legal abortion in America, and Republican leaders pretends that this notion is not completely insane. If a Bush-Cheney administration (and Republican-majority congress/conservative-majority Supreme Court) did not ban abortion, what are the chances a Romney-Ryan administration would? Mitt Romney’s eldest sister, who has backed prominent Democrats for office and is Tampa showing support for her brother, had some reassuring words Wednesday for women concerned about the Republican Party’s hard line on abortion.
    He’s not going to be touching any of that,” she said. “It’s not his focus.”
    Democratic warnings that abortion rights are under threat are an unground fear tactic, Jane Romney said. “That’s what women are afraid of, but that’s conjured,” she said. “Personally, I don’t think abortion should be used as a football in the political arena.” …
    A ban on abortion is “never going to happen” under a Romney administration, Jane Romney said. “Women would take to the streets. Women fought for our choice, we’re not going to go back.”

    • Sus

      Bush-Cheney didn’t have the supreme court votes to overturn Roe v Wade. In the next 4 years, there is a high possibility of two supreme court appointments.
      Romney flipflops on many other issues that who knows what he would do. I don’t trust him to make his own decisions but will be led by the same people who led Bush II.

      • ToronadoBlue

        @Sus,
        Bush 2 appointed Scalia, Roberts, and Alito. NARAL (a pro-abortion group) opposed their nominations for their expected prolife votes.

        For Justices appointed by a Obama, Kagan is expected to vote prochoice and Sotameyer is most likely leaning prochoice. A prolife judge will never be nominated to the Supreme Court by a Democrat president for quite a while. The prochoice crowd would never have it. We are more likely to get a Pro-life judge with Romney.

  • ToronadoBlue

    @Jeannette
    That’s too bad. I hope progress will be made in that one day, all unborn babies will be given the equal right to live a life.
    I doubt I’ll see in my lifetime because I recognize that it is going to be a long road and the devil will have his allies. I am reminded that Lincoln, although celebrated as the man who gave the slave his freedom, was also the same who said that the ‘negro’ was not equal to the ‘white’. Although the march for rights was long, God eventually granted a victory.
    Although Romney may not be the perfect choice for giving equal rights to the unborn, I pray that he will be useful in the march for that victory.

  • Jeannette

    I don’t know what you mean by “it’s too bad? These are quotes from Romney’s sister. My point is if Republicans haven’t been able to ban abortions while they were in office what makes us think Romney will? Abortion issues are not going to disappear just because a Republican is in office; maybe politicians should stop trying to play God. Why are we leaving it up to Politicians anyway; what are we believers doing to help resolve this issue of morality in society? If we were truly concerned about abortion; we…. “the church” would take responsibility and do something about it instead of handing it over to the Politicians and complaining about how they don’t care.

  • ToronadoBlue

    @Jeannette

    “It’s too bad” because we have a long way to go for protecting the lives of the unborn.

    Jeannette said: ” My point is if Republicans haven’t been able to ban abortions while they were in office what makes us think Romney will?”
    It depends on the Democrat opposition. Romney is more likely to nominate a pro-life judge than Obama.

    When the GOP held the Presidency, House and Senate during the 108th and 109th Congress (2003-2006) the following took place that attempted to limit abortion:
    The Unborn Victims of Violence Act signed by President Bush
    The Federal Abortion Ban signed by President Bush
    An amendment to the Labor Health and Human Services Appropriations Bill allowed health care companies and providers to refuse to provide abortion services on moral or religious grounds.
    The Born Alive Bill was passed and signed by Bush and it appears that Obama voted against a similar one in Illinois.

    The National Abortion Federation says that 20 anti-choice votes were held during the 108th Congress (including those above).
    Furthermore, The Freedom of Choice Act was introduced by Democrats that would prohibit government intrusions into abortions.

    Therefore, no one can say that Republicans have been doing nothing. As a matter of fact, NAF and NARAL would assert that Republicans are always seeking to limit abortions.

    Jeannette said: “If we were truly concerned about abortion; we…. “the church” would take responsibility and do something about it instead of handing it over to the Politicians and complaining about how they don’t care.”

    I agree, we can do more.
    -Teaching our children and neighbors to have respect for life
    -Recognize and teach that we are made in God’s image
    -Personally seek out those who need help and give them our best
    -We can vote in Pro-life politicians
    -encouraging the pregnant to use adoption
    -encouraging Christians to adopt
    -teaching the pro-choice “christians” the wrongness of their position
    -Encourage our brethren to do the same
    -Pray

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvS34icpA2s&list=PLE11CFA4632C213B5&index=1&feature=plpp_video&noredirect=1

  • Jeannette

    We all know the “right” answers; the question is why are most not doing it? Everyone supporting Romney that I’ve spoken to about what they are doing in their churches or communities, outreaches etc. to bring support and awareness was pointing the finger in a different direction. I was even told it was not in the mission statement of their church to focus on these type of issues, but if I know of someone struggling with immorality or unwed pregnancy, they have councilors there that they can speak with. What I do know is as a woman I have women friends who have faced this seemingly desperate situation and what I can say is if you’ve never been there; don’t be so quick to judge. Compassion, understanding and love can solve a world of hurt. I’ve seen women so afraid that they used a hanger to abort, and I know some who find abortions being done from someones apartment. I work for a hospice and one of the nurses goes to China where abortions are illegal; she helps provide medical care to these women after getting botched abortions in hiding. More laws and harsher leadership is just going to push women up against the wall, I’ve seen it.

    • Sus

      Excellent comment Jeannette!! There is evidence of abortion dating back to the caveman days.

      @ToronadoBlue: “Could you explain further what you mean about ‘The evil part is society putting someone into a position of abortion’?”

      Currently, we have children that are hungry, uninsured, living in horrible situations, etc. That is the evil part.

    • ToronadoBlue

      JEANNETTE, and SUS
      Quick point, are you sure it is China that the nurse goes to? Because China provides abortion on demand.

      Jeannette, you’re suggesting that not enough people are taking responsibility and I agree with you 100%. I’d like to see more done in this world with that regard.

      I also agree that compassion, love and understanding can solve a world of hurt.

      For women who find themselves pregnent, there are other options available. There is no need for a coat hanger and a back alley abortion. As someone who has gone through the process of adopting, I can tell you first hand how there are numerous couples out there that are ready for newborns.

      Let me ask, which is the more ‘Christian’ method for dealing with an unwanted child?
      a) Carrying it to full term and allowing it to be adopted by a loving family who will cherish him/her?
      b) Poisoning, stabbing, or sucking it’s brains out until it is dead?

      Sus,
      You are correct in that abortions have been around for a long time. Murder has been around since Cain and Able, but it wasn’t right either and still isn’t.

      Also, I am all for feeding the hungry. But I don’t feel that I have the right to kill a child who might go hungry one day. I will suffer God’s eternal wrath for it.

      • Sus

        I am 100% for adoption if a person CHOOSES to put their baby up for adoption.

        Who are we to judge what is the more “Christian” method?

        “You” aren’t killing anyone if you aren’t personally involved in the situation.

        If God is going to punish us all for the sins of others, I want nothing to do with that God.

        • Frank

          When we stand by and allow a sin when we do have some power to influence it we are just as guilty.

          • Sus

            Frank, I admire your passion for what you believe.

      • Sus

        About adoption…

        Women are not here to be breeders so there are children to adopt. I don’t think it’s right for to make a woman carry a baby if she doesn’t want to just so that baby can be adopted.

        The right wing likes to talk about a slippery slope. I think it’s a slippery slope making a woman do something against her will.

        • ToronadoBlue

          SUS,
          SUS said “Who are we to judge what is the more “Christian” method?”
          -Christians using the word of God can judge what is ‘christian’ and what is not.

          SUS said “If God is going to punish us all for the sins of others, I want nothing to do with that God.”
          -By voting to allow someone to murder their own child, God could hold us complicit. As a Christian I cannot support ‘child murder’ on demand.

          SUS said “I don’t think it’s right for to make a woman carry a baby if she doesn’t want to just so that baby can be adopted.”

          I don’t think a child should be put to death because it is unwanted by his/her biological mother. If a woman gets pregnant, there are options.

          SUS said “I think it’s a slippery slope making a woman do something against her will.”
          A slippery slope into what? All I want is protection for innocent life, otherwise it is a slippery slope into a culture that has no respect for life which has unfortunately affected too many people.

          • Sus

            “If a woman gets pregnant, there are options.” One of those options is abortion.

            I’m done discussing abortion. If the discussion is around solving the issues of why a woman would choose abortion, I’m game.

            If you want to use your vote to vote for someone you know God wants you to vote for, go for it. I’m not arrogate enough to think I know who God wants to be President.

          • ToronadoBlue

            SUS,
            Sus said: ” One of those options is abortion.”
            -Child murder should never be an option.

            Sus said: ” If the discussion is around solving the issues of why a woman would choose abortion, I’m game.”
            -We already know the reasons. (unready to have children, too many children, financial issues, interference with careers, etc)
            None of those are good enough reasons to put someone to death.

            Sus said: ” I’m not arrogate enough to think I know who God wants to be President.”
            -Although I have many faults, I wouldn’t say that it is arrogance as much as it is studying the bible to recognize right and wrong.
            I pray that I haven’t come across as arrogant to you and answered any questions you may have about my pro-life beliefs.
            In the future you can email me at ‘toronadoblue@hotmail.com’.

            God bless and keep you.

  • Jeannette

    I’m positive it’s China; what are talking about on demand? If it’s on demand it’s happening in hiding. We do not have a clue of what it’s like to live under that type of dictatorship. These comments are not coming from compassion, understanding or love. This conversation is not solving anything, time to move on. I’m voting for President Obama and for 4 more years. I’m not saying he has the answers to all of our countries challenges, only God can do that. I can’t say who will win this election, just know that I am “praying for you President Obama.” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaMw8xX3MWE

  • ToronadoBlue

    @Jeannette,
    Yes China has abortion on demand:
    “Abortion in China is legal and is a government service available on request for women.[1] In addition to virtually universal access to contraception, abortion is a way for China to contain its population in accordance with its one-child policy.[2]”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_China

    I’m sorry that you don’t think that my conversation with you isn’t coming from compassion, understanding or love. Sometimes it’s easy to misjudge a person’s intentions by what we see on a computer screen as opposed to sitting in front of them and seeing them face-to-face.

    I assure you, that as a servant for Christ, I want for all children to grow up, breath air, live in loving homes, and to never be hungry. That is a strong desire in my heart and I am doing the best I can with my life to serving others.

    I am not voting for Obama, but I will join you in praying for him. I pray for him and all the leadership of our country.

  • Jeannette

    Some people believe they understand all the issues of the world by listening to the media and the internet, other people go to where people are hurting to help……uh yeah…..just like Yeshua did. Don’t believe everything you read or hear and take it as truth; Yeshua was moved with compassion and healed those in need. Just because you can’t see it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. How about we all stop living in a bubble?

  • ToronadoBlue

    Jeannette,
    What bubble are you referring to?
    I’m not sure i understand the point of your post. If you are suggesting that I’m one of those people who believes everything that the media and the internet spouts out as true, I can assure you as a reader of ‘Faithful Democrat’ that there is a lot of lies and propaganda in the world. I try to read as many different sites and understand as many given opinions as I can hoping to get at the truth.

    I agree with you. Just because we don’t see something doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

    God bless

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