Comments on: Inside the House http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/ Exploring Mormon Thought, Culture, and Texts Fri, 03 Feb 2012 14:46:45 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Robert C. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3103 Robert C. Wed, 07 Feb 2007 05:00:13 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3103 TT #53: Thanks for the link, very interesting post and discussion. TT #53: Thanks for the link, very interesting post and discussion.

]]> By: Mogget http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3102 Mogget Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:38:44 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3102 Yes, I know you have taken them and that makes two of us! And I love your post on Paul. What I was talking about, however, was my experience with grad students here. Paul is a rewarding but difficult area. In my experience, folks who are not NT exegetes don't take advanced Pauline studies even when the opportunity is presented. Although the plural of anecdote is not data, I remain under the impression that this is because of the difficulty subject matter. So now, if most LDS grad students are not in NT exegesis, but in OT or in related disciplines such as languages or history, I don't expect much engagement with Paul. But we could try to actually find out why there's less interest in Greek and if there's really an aversion to Paul, I guess... And I do agree with your earlier post -- although we talk "restoration" of the NT church, the reality of the matter is that we've got an amalgamation of NT doctrines such as christology and ecclesiology with a bunch of OT-related practices like priesthood, temple, and patriarchal blessings. Yes, I know you have taken them and that makes two of us! And I love your post on Paul.

What I was talking about, however, was my experience with grad students here. Paul is a rewarding but difficult area. In my experience, folks who are not NT exegetes don’t take advanced Pauline studies even when the opportunity is presented. Although the plural of anecdote is not data, I remain under the impression that this is because of the difficulty subject matter.

So now, if most LDS grad students are not in NT exegesis, but in OT or in related disciplines such as languages or history, I don’t expect much engagement with Paul. But we could try to actually find out why there’s less interest in Greek and if there’s really an aversion to Paul, I guess…

And I do agree with your earlier post — although we talk “restoration” of the NT church, the reality of the matter is that we’ve got an amalgamation of NT doctrines such as christology and ecclesiology with a bunch of OT-related practices like priesthood, temple, and patriarchal blessings.

]]> By: TrailerTrash http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3101 TrailerTrash Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:25:23 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3101 Not that this is the topic of this post, but I have commented on the lack of critical engagement with Paul here: http://urbanmormonism.blogspot.com/2006/10/no-mormon-love-for-paul.html And, Mogget, you know me (sort of...) and I have taken lots of advanced courses on Paul. Not that this is the topic of this post, but I have commented on the lack of critical engagement with Paul here: http://urbanmormonism.blogspot.com/2006/10/no-mormon-love-for-paul.html

And, Mogget, you know me (sort of…) and I have taken lots of advanced courses on Paul.

]]> By: Mogget http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3100 Mogget Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:21:09 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3100 <i>I disagree with the Paul aversion. I don’t know any LDS grad student with the aversion. </i> I was talking about an aversion to Paul in the larger LDS population. Undergrads are going to mirror the larger population for a bit, don't you think? As for grad students, how many grad students do you know who have taken an 800-level exegesis course in a Pauline epistle as an elective? Pretty much every related Biblical studies field (languages, history, religion) has opportunities for electives. But I've never seen any of them in a serious exegetical study of a major Pauline epistle. Course I don't know any other Mormons, either... I disagree with the Paul aversion. I don’t know any LDS grad student with the aversion.

I was talking about an aversion to Paul in the larger LDS population. Undergrads are going to mirror the larger population for a bit, don’t you think?

As for grad students, how many grad students do you know who have taken an 800-level exegesis course in a Pauline epistle as an elective? Pretty much every related Biblical studies field (languages, history, religion) has opportunities for electives. But I’ve never seen any of them in a serious exegetical study of a major Pauline epistle.

Course I don’t know any other Mormons, either…

]]> By: bodhi http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3099 bodhi Tue, 06 Feb 2007 19:00:09 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3099 On the whole BYU Heb/Gk question: There are actually many more Greek classes taught than Hebrew, but most all classical Greek. The ground may be shifting with this new degree program (not really familiar with it), but I did both languages 10+ years ago. Back then one simply could not take a NT Greek class; none were offered. You did the classical Greek curriculum and had to read the "Christian stuff" on your own. And in fact the Classics dept. then was indifferent or even hostile to all things ancient and Christian, so students like myself were, at best, tolerated as misguided in our interests. On the other hand, one could start straight into Heb Bible and find a terrific support base among the faculty. No wonder all of my classmates who went on to do NT in grad school did Heb as undergrads and Greek only as grad students. I suspect these historical differences still influence interests today among BYU undergrads. I'm skeptical that concerns over the theological difficulties inherent in NT studies are as determinative, or that interests of Religion faculty are that skewed and influential. RE has always had plenty of NT people. As an undergrad I was influenced by several NT scholars who were well trained (Richard Anderson, Stephen Robinson, Kent Brown). And, FWIW, RE has for quite some time been preferring NT to OT people in new hires because they need so many more of them. This is why some OT scholars have retreaded as NT scholars to help them get hired. NT is a "required elective" with much higher enrollment than OT classes, which struggle to fill even a few sections. Students have very little interest in it. Even some of the OT scholars, like Jackson, almost never teach it, while RE occasionally scratches to cover the NT sections. Anyone who wants a job in RE is better off doing NT, though of course at the end of the day one's academic specialty plays a surprisingly small part in the hiring process. On the whole BYU Heb/Gk question: There are actually many more Greek classes taught than Hebrew, but most all classical Greek. The ground may be shifting with this new degree program (not really familiar with it), but I did both languages 10+ years ago. Back then one simply could not take a NT Greek class; none were offered. You did the classical Greek curriculum and had to read the “Christian stuff” on your own. And in fact the Classics dept. then was indifferent or even hostile to all things ancient and Christian, so students like myself were, at best, tolerated as misguided in our interests. On the other hand, one could start straight into Heb Bible and find a terrific support base among the faculty. No wonder all of my classmates who went on to do NT in grad school did Heb as undergrads and Greek only as grad students. I suspect these historical differences still influence interests today among BYU undergrads. I’m skeptical that concerns over the theological difficulties inherent in NT studies are as determinative, or that interests of Religion faculty are that skewed and influential. RE has always had plenty of NT people. As an undergrad I was influenced by several NT scholars who were well trained (Richard Anderson, Stephen Robinson, Kent Brown).

And, FWIW, RE has for quite some time been preferring NT to OT people in new hires because they need so many more of them. This is why some OT scholars have retreaded as NT scholars to help them get hired. NT is a “required elective” with much higher enrollment than OT classes, which struggle to fill even a few sections. Students have very little interest in it. Even some of the OT scholars, like Jackson, almost never teach it, while RE occasionally scratches to cover the NT sections. Anyone who wants a job in RE is better off doing NT, though of course at the end of the day one’s academic specialty plays a surprisingly small part in the hiring process.

]]> By: Robert C. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3098 Robert C. Tue, 06 Feb 2007 18:43:06 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3098 Good points all, though I still think grad students are interested in Paul b/c he's intellectually challenging/deep, but the average BYU student is less interested in his philosophical mingling. But I'm just guessing that most ANE majors are <i>not</i> bound for graduate school.... Todd, next time I head up to visit my folks in IF, I'll send you an email (I think I can get it from the Feast blog) and see if we can't meet for lunch or something. Good points all, though I still think grad students are interested in Paul b/c he’s intellectually challenging/deep, but the average BYU student is less interested in his philosophical mingling. But I’m just guessing that most ANE majors are not bound for graduate school….

Todd, next time I head up to visit my folks in IF, I’ll send you an email (I think I can get it from the Feast blog) and see if we can’t meet for lunch or something.

]]> By: Todd Wood http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3097 Todd Wood Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:33:53 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3097 Lxxluthor, here is a little info that I wrote up on the upcoming <a href="http://heartissuesforlds.wordpress.com/2006/12/20/ink-blood-the-dead-sea-scrolls-to-the-king-james-bible/" rel="nofollow">exhibit</a>. I would enjoy connecting with any of your gang in I.F. It would definitely be an interesting classroom discussion for you guys interacting with a guy like me. And truly, I am busting at the seams with excitement over these artifacts coming to town. Robert C., HP, TT, you ought to visit. This is even better than Eastern Idaho's baked spuds. Lxxluthor, here is a little info that I wrote up on the upcoming exhibit.

I would enjoy connecting with any of your gang in I.F. It would definitely be an interesting classroom discussion for you guys interacting with a guy like me.

And truly, I am busting at the seams with excitement over these artifacts coming to town.

Robert C., HP, TT, you ought to visit. This is even better than Eastern Idaho’s baked spuds.

]]> By: lxxluthor http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3096 lxxluthor Tue, 06 Feb 2007 17:00:37 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3096 HP and TT: Good call on both accounts. Especially that Hebrew is easier here than Greek. I wish that the Hebrew folks here would get the message that a more rigorous Hebrew program is both needed and desired. HP and TT: Good call on both accounts. Especially that Hebrew is easier here than Greek. I wish that the Hebrew folks here would get the message that a more rigorous Hebrew program is both needed and desired.

]]> By: TrailerTrash http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3095 TrailerTrash Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:46:59 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3095 <i>One can be a legitimate OT scholar and believe that Moses actually wrote the Pentateuch.<i> Is that true!! As for why Hebrew is more popular at BYU, I think that it has less to do with the specific program requirements of BYU and more to do with LDS cultural understandings of Judaism and Israel, and their connections to Mormons. The BOM, priesthood, temple, polygamy, etc are all examples of the recentering of the OT in Mormon culture vis a vis broader Christian culture. One can be a legitimate OT scholar and believe that Moses actually wrote the Pentateuch.

Is that true!!

As for why Hebrew is more popular at BYU, I think that it has less to do with the specific program requirements of BYU and more to do with LDS cultural understandings of Judaism and Israel, and their connections to Mormons. The BOM, priesthood, temple, polygamy, etc are all examples of the recentering of the OT in Mormon culture vis a vis broader Christian culture.

]]> By: HP http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2007/01/inside-the-house/#comment-3094 HP Tue, 06 Feb 2007 16:08:48 +0000 http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/2007/01/24/inside-the-house/#comment-3094 I disagree with the Paul aversion. I don't know any LDS grad student with the aversion. I believe that, from a grad student perspective, the preference for OT is that more is up in the air. One can be a legitimate OT scholar and believe that Moses actually wrote the Pentateuch. It is perceived as being much much harder to be a NT scholar and to continue to believe that Matthew actually wrote Matthew (and so forth). Also, to be blunt, Greek is taught much more rigorously than Hebrew is at the BYU. It is much easier to get an A in the Hebrew class. Finally, I also believe that it is the Jerusalem Center. What do Israelis speak? Hebrew. Therefore, Hebrew is more authentically ANE. Finally, there is a perception that the big ANE LDS scholars are Hebrew scholars (I believe this to be the effect of all the DSS scholarship). Of course, this is crazy (Nibley was a classicist, for pete's sake). Nonetheless, I believe that these are the reasons why Hebrew is more popular than Greek at BYU. I disagree with the Paul aversion. I don’t know any LDS grad student with the aversion. I believe that, from a grad student perspective, the preference for OT is that more is up in the air. One can be a legitimate OT scholar and believe that Moses actually wrote the Pentateuch. It is perceived as being much much harder to be a NT scholar and to continue to believe that Matthew actually wrote Matthew (and so forth). Also, to be blunt, Greek is taught much more rigorously than Hebrew is at the BYU. It is much easier to get an A in the Hebrew class. Finally, I also believe that it is the Jerusalem Center. What do Israelis speak? Hebrew. Therefore, Hebrew is more authentically ANE. Finally, there is a perception that the big ANE LDS scholars are Hebrew scholars (I believe this to be the effect of all the DSS scholarship). Of course, this is crazy (Nibley was a classicist, for pete’s sake). Nonetheless, I believe that these are the reasons why Hebrew is more popular than Greek at BYU.

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