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	<title>Comments on: Deliberate textual ambiguities?</title>
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	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/</link>
	<description>Exploring Mormon Thought, Culture, and Texts</description>
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		<title>By: Ed Goble</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10502</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Goble</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 01:12:08 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The places where things are ambiguous or translate in strange ways unclearly, such as with the rib story, or as with Jacob&#039;s wrestling with the angel are tip-offs that there is something underlying in the text that has double entendre.  Many times the words can be euphemisms, or can be read in other ways that have a totally different context than the surface reading.  This is an almost kabbalistic way of hiding a more spiritual meaning in the text than is on the surface reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The places where things are ambiguous or translate in strange ways unclearly, such as with the rib story, or as with Jacob&#8217;s wrestling with the angel are tip-offs that there is something underlying in the text that has double entendre.  Many times the words can be euphemisms, or can be read in other ways that have a totally different context than the surface reading.  This is an almost kabbalistic way of hiding a more spiritual meaning in the text than is on the surface reading.</p>
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		<title>By: SmallAxe</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10500</link>
		<dc:creator>SmallAxe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Oct 2008 17:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;i&gt; Since the ordering is mutually exclusive, one of the two is not strictly historical (unless Jesus went through the whole triplet of temptations twice, I suppose). But this didn’t bother Joseph Smith. &lt;/i&gt;

In exploring why this didn&#039;t bother JS I think we need to be open to the possibility that he simply didn&#039;t recognize the discrepancy. Perhaps this specific case can be proven otherwise; but overall, I sometimes wonder whether the shift to valuing ambiguity in interpretation is one part of a larger contemporary (perhaps even &quot;post-modern&quot;) trend. At the same time I do realize that many religious traditions have valued certain kinds of ambiguities (such as paradoxes) for quite some time (which is why I linked over to the previous post). However, I tend to be wary of claims that LDSs have &lt;i&gt; always &lt;/i&gt; self-consciously valued ambiguity (perhaps Givens&#039; &quot;People of Paradox&quot; falls into this category). Instead, I see ambiguity as something that most Mormons have disdained most of the time; and something that some Mormons have found very &quot;fruitful&quot; some of the time. This is all to say that in exploring textual ambiguities within Mormonism, we should be careful about the kind of assumptions we have about the value of ambiguity, and the historical value assigned to the notion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i> Since the ordering is mutually exclusive, one of the two is not strictly historical (unless Jesus went through the whole triplet of temptations twice, I suppose). But this didn’t bother Joseph Smith. </i></p>
<p>In exploring why this didn&#8217;t bother JS I think we need to be open to the possibility that he simply didn&#8217;t recognize the discrepancy. Perhaps this specific case can be proven otherwise; but overall, I sometimes wonder whether the shift to valuing ambiguity in interpretation is one part of a larger contemporary (perhaps even &#8220;post-modern&#8221;) trend. At the same time I do realize that many religious traditions have valued certain kinds of ambiguities (such as paradoxes) for quite some time (which is why I linked over to the previous post). However, I tend to be wary of claims that LDSs have <i> always </i> self-consciously valued ambiguity (perhaps Givens&#8217; &#8220;People of Paradox&#8221; falls into this category). Instead, I see ambiguity as something that most Mormons have disdained most of the time; and something that some Mormons have found very &#8220;fruitful&#8221; some of the time. This is all to say that in exploring textual ambiguities within Mormonism, we should be careful about the kind of assumptions we have about the value of ambiguity, and the historical value assigned to the notion.</p>
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		<title>By: the narrator</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10501</link>
		<dc:creator>the narrator</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Oct 2008 08:05:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10501</guid>
		<description>One of my favorite authors, John Dominic Crosson has some interesting comments about the differences in the Gospels. He points out that the author of Matthew used Mark while composing his Gospel (as well as the author of Luke used Mark for his Gospel as well). In doing so, they deliberately changed the narrative around to portray different ways of understanding the Christ. The author of John used different sources altogether in composing his Gospel.

Even more importantly, the early Christians who had these Gospels were not stupid and clearly knew that there were contradicting differences between the Gospels and accepted them anyways. The problem is when we take these Gospels whose narratives were meant to be understood symbolically (and the early Christians understood this) and then we turn around and try to force literal understandings into them.

An example: The Sermon on the Mount.

Most likely Jesus never gave the Sermon on the Mount as it is contained in Matthew. Nor did he give the same sermon as it appears on the plain in Luke. Rather both the authors of Matthew and Luke incorporated a collection of aphorisms by Jesus and placed them into a single sermon. Matthew placed this sermon onto a mountain to make a symbolic narrative link to Moses. Luke did not.

Of course this understanding will force a different understanding of this Sermon as it occurs in the Book of Mormon. However, I think this would simply place Joseph Smith among the authors of the Gospels who utilized the sermon in a way to tell an important narrative about Christ and his visit to the Americas.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One of my favorite authors, John Dominic Crosson has some interesting comments about the differences in the Gospels. He points out that the author of Matthew used Mark while composing his Gospel (as well as the author of Luke used Mark for his Gospel as well). In doing so, they deliberately changed the narrative around to portray different ways of understanding the Christ. The author of John used different sources altogether in composing his Gospel.</p>
<p>Even more importantly, the early Christians who had these Gospels were not stupid and clearly knew that there were contradicting differences between the Gospels and accepted them anyways. The problem is when we take these Gospels whose narratives were meant to be understood symbolically (and the early Christians understood this) and then we turn around and try to force literal understandings into them.</p>
<p>An example: The Sermon on the Mount.</p>
<p>Most likely Jesus never gave the Sermon on the Mount as it is contained in Matthew. Nor did he give the same sermon as it appears on the plain in Luke. Rather both the authors of Matthew and Luke incorporated a collection of aphorisms by Jesus and placed them into a single sermon. Matthew placed this sermon onto a mountain to make a symbolic narrative link to Moses. Luke did not.</p>
<p>Of course this understanding will force a different understanding of this Sermon as it occurs in the Book of Mormon. However, I think this would simply place Joseph Smith among the authors of the Gospels who utilized the sermon in a way to tell an important narrative about Christ and his visit to the Americas.</p>
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		<title>By: Secco</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10490</link>
		<dc:creator>Secco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Oct 2008 17:34:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10490</guid>
		<description>I think I&#039;ve found the compact proof-of-principle text that I&#039;ve been looking for, in order to dispel the notion that the apparent ambiguities are just scribal error or corruption: JST revisions to Matthew 4 and Luke 4.

There is a minor but interesting difference in the two Gospels (both KJV and underlying Greek texts): In Matt the order of the temptations is bread/pinnacle/mountain, but in Luke it is bread/mountain/pinnacle. JST actively revises both accounts across multiple verses, but does not harmonize the order. The logic is that we know that Joseph Smith actively looked at these two accounts (as evidenced by the multiple JST revisions in each account), but left the ambiguity of the ordering intact.

Since the ordering is mutually exclusive, one of the two is not strictly historical (unless Jesus went through the whole triplet of temptations twice, I suppose). But this didn&#039;t bother Joseph Smith.

I&#039;m sure there are more meaningful examples, but at least this one proves my point. Thanks for listening :-).

PS: Now as to &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/i&gt; Luke and Matthew differ on the order of the temptations...well...separate post topic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I&#8217;ve found the compact proof-of-principle text that I&#8217;ve been looking for, in order to dispel the notion that the apparent ambiguities are just scribal error or corruption: JST revisions to Matthew 4 and Luke 4.</p>
<p>There is a minor but interesting difference in the two Gospels (both KJV and underlying Greek texts): In Matt the order of the temptations is bread/pinnacle/mountain, but in Luke it is bread/mountain/pinnacle. JST actively revises both accounts across multiple verses, but does not harmonize the order. The logic is that we know that Joseph Smith actively looked at these two accounts (as evidenced by the multiple JST revisions in each account), but left the ambiguity of the ordering intact.</p>
<p>Since the ordering is mutually exclusive, one of the two is not strictly historical (unless Jesus went through the whole triplet of temptations twice, I suppose). But this didn&#8217;t bother Joseph Smith.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m sure there are more meaningful examples, but at least this one proves my point. Thanks for listening <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>PS: Now as to <i>why</i> Luke and Matthew differ on the order of the temptations&#8230;well&#8230;separate post topic.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Ashurst-McGee</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10491</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Ashurst-McGee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 15:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10491</guid>
		<description>I think that reader-response critic Wolfgang Iser argues that good literature has gaps and ambiguities in it. This makes the reader&#039;s mind work to connect the dots. Different readers connect the dots in ways that work for their own mentalities and lives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that reader-response critic Wolfgang Iser argues that good literature has gaps and ambiguities in it. This makes the reader&#8217;s mind work to connect the dots. Different readers connect the dots in ways that work for their own mentalities and lives.</p>
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		<title>By: Velska</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10489</link>
		<dc:creator>Velska</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 08:43:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10489</guid>
		<description>Perhaps a partial answer could be that we all understand figures of speech in a personal way, carrying off what our experience tells us is important. That&#039;s why it may be beneficial to let different versions of the same circulate.

I believe that often the truths that the Lord is trying to convey defy human language altogether, and we get approximations at best.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps a partial answer could be that we all understand figures of speech in a personal way, carrying off what our experience tells us is important. That&#8217;s why it may be beneficial to let different versions of the same circulate.</p>
<p>I believe that often the truths that the Lord is trying to convey defy human language altogether, and we get approximations at best.</p>
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		<title>By: Secco</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10496</link>
		<dc:creator>Secco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Oct 2008 03:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10496</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the other comments. While I&#039;m sympathetic to the idea of dualism in many gospel concepts, from suffering to salvation, what I was hoping to drill down on here was the textual traditions, actual scriptural paradoxes where we seem to have out-and-out conflict between different passages of holy writ.

Along those lines, Jacob J, yes, this is a good example, thank you for it. I&#039;m still looking for what I think is out there, an example of JST modifications that are non-identical, which might conclusively demonstrate that JS saw his modifications not in an either/or sense but rather as complementary.

One I&#039;m reminded of is a sermon of Joseph Smith&#039;s quoting the &quot;wise as serpents/harmless as doves&quot; scripture (and its usage in D&amp;C 111) even though the JST changes this to &quot;wise servants&quot; (JST Matt 10:14). It&#039;s as if both are OK. In this case where there is not clear conflict between the two renderings, perhaps my case isn&#039;t made so well, but it does open the door to my thesis that perhaps one of the clues that Scripture writers have left for us is these things that we want to ignore as contradictions. Proving contraries, and all that...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the other comments. While I&#8217;m sympathetic to the idea of dualism in many gospel concepts, from suffering to salvation, what I was hoping to drill down on here was the textual traditions, actual scriptural paradoxes where we seem to have out-and-out conflict between different passages of holy writ.</p>
<p>Along those lines, Jacob J, yes, this is a good example, thank you for it. I&#8217;m still looking for what I think is out there, an example of JST modifications that are non-identical, which might conclusively demonstrate that JS saw his modifications not in an either/or sense but rather as complementary.</p>
<p>One I&#8217;m reminded of is a sermon of Joseph Smith&#8217;s quoting the &#8220;wise as serpents/harmless as doves&#8221; scripture (and its usage in D&amp;C 111) even though the JST changes this to &#8220;wise servants&#8221; (JST Matt 10:14). It&#8217;s as if both are OK. In this case where there is not clear conflict between the two renderings, perhaps my case isn&#8217;t made so well, but it does open the door to my thesis that perhaps one of the clues that Scripture writers have left for us is these things that we want to ignore as contradictions. Proving contraries, and all that&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: jondh</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10495</link>
		<dc:creator>jondh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 17:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10495</guid>
		<description>Ambiguity is what makes life interesting. When LDS authors and teachers downplay and dismiss tensions and conflicts, we miss so many interesting looks into the author&#039;s life and circumstances, as well as the situation of the contemporaneous church. What&#039;s wrong with asking questions like &quot;Why does Luke emphasize this event and Mark chooses to emphasize something different?&quot; That kind of discussion should have a meaningful place in Gospel Doctrine classes?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ambiguity is what makes life interesting. When LDS authors and teachers downplay and dismiss tensions and conflicts, we miss so many interesting looks into the author&#8217;s life and circumstances, as well as the situation of the contemporaneous church. What&#8217;s wrong with asking questions like &#8220;Why does Luke emphasize this event and Mark chooses to emphasize something different?&#8221; That kind of discussion should have a meaningful place in Gospel Doctrine classes?</p>
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		<title>By: Clark</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10494</link>
		<dc:creator>Clark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 16:37:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10494</guid>
		<description>While I think we can make a lot from the various creation accounts (i.e. spiritual vs. physical) I&#039;m not sure how we tell what difference is just bad accuracy from what is intentional to some point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I think we can make a lot from the various creation accounts (i.e. spiritual vs. physical) I&#8217;m not sure how we tell what difference is just bad accuracy from what is intentional to some point.</p>
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		<title>By: The Right Trousers</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2008/10/deliberate-textual-ambiguities/#comment-10493</link>
		<dc:creator>The Right Trousers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Oct 2008 06:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://faithpromotingrumor.wordpress.com/?p=974#comment-10493</guid>
		<description>Yes, we&#039;re missing something. We love to be precise, we revel in unambiguity, if it&#039;s truth we expect a single authoritative explanation, and we don&#039;t know Hebrew so we don&#039;t get the puns and we miss a lot of peotic cues. We&#039;re pretty far from the mindset of the Old Testament authors.

Honestly, I think they&#039;d laugh at us for how we wrest the creation accounts in Genesis, after they were done marvelling about how the sky isn&#039;t actually made of water.

FWIW, my favorite tension is between grace and works as a qualifier for salvation. It&#039;s strong enough that you can&#039;t resolve it only from the scriptures. You have to go to God and ask him how he thinks you&#039;re doing rather than trying to extract a judgment from vague and often conflicting statements. You get a narrow ruling for yourself only, handed down by the only qualified Judge.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, we&#8217;re missing something. We love to be precise, we revel in unambiguity, if it&#8217;s truth we expect a single authoritative explanation, and we don&#8217;t know Hebrew so we don&#8217;t get the puns and we miss a lot of peotic cues. We&#8217;re pretty far from the mindset of the Old Testament authors.</p>
<p>Honestly, I think they&#8217;d laugh at us for how we wrest the creation accounts in Genesis, after they were done marvelling about how the sky isn&#8217;t actually made of water.</p>
<p>FWIW, my favorite tension is between grace and works as a qualifier for salvation. It&#8217;s strong enough that you can&#8217;t resolve it only from the scriptures. You have to go to God and ask him how he thinks you&#8217;re doing rather than trying to extract a judgment from vague and often conflicting statements. You get a narrow ruling for yourself only, handed down by the only qualified Judge.</p>
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