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	<title>Comments on: A Feminist Response to Valerie Hudson</title>
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	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/</link>
	<description>Exploring Mormon Thought, Culture, and Texts</description>
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		<title>By: Brad Carmack</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6681</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Carmack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 19 Dec 2010 00:03:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6681</guid>
		<description>I make some similar criticism&#039;s of Hudson&#039;s &quot;gender apartheid&quot; arguments in my book, &quot;Homosexuality: A Straight BYU Student&#039;s Perspective&quot; (https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1u3K43P-3JoYTUzNjYwMGEtNzNmYi00ODkwLTllMzYtNjRlOTVlMWUwYTM2&amp;hl=en).  I have a similar appreciation for Hudson&#039;s level of discourse and scholarly approach.

An excerpt: 

Interlocutor: “There is simply no other arrangement that can ground every human family in gender equality—companionate heterosexual monogamous marriage (as the essay entitled &quot;Some Things Which Should Not Have Been Forgotten Were Lost &quot; in this issue terms it) is simply “it.”  No gender unequal relationship (even if it is called “marriage”) and no gender apartheid arrangement (with a person of the same sex or with no other person at all) can ground the households of the human family in gender equality. ”  Also, “If men and women live separate lives within their society, a hierarchy of men over women—with its attendant slide towards malignant patriarchy--is the inevitable result… the state itself has a vested interest in the creation and promulgation of companionate heterosexual monogamous marriage (G arrangements)—and likewise has a vested interest in the proactive hindrance of evolutionary marriage and gender apartheid. It is only through the widespread existence of companionate heterosexual monogamous marriages that democracy, freedom, prosperity, and other goods such as state peacefulness can continue to have strong root and be sustainable. ”
My response: Does allowing an African American to another African American frustrate racial equality?  Should we instead require that an African American marry a Caucasian, or a Japanese person marry a non-Japanese, to promote racial equality?  How about religion- should we mandate Catholic-Jew weddings, and bar the pairing of two Southern Baptists, to promote religious equality? “One must wonder why it is necessary to prohibit same-sex marriage to promote gender equality when it suffices to permit interracial marriage to promote racial equality. ” Allowing different-race marriage doesn’t evidence the state’s preference for or against same-race marriage- apartheid is an inappropriate comparison because apartheid mandates segregation whereas SSM is merely an option.  The offensiveness of miscegenation laws is not merely because of privileging one race above another, but that race is simply not an appropriate basis for limiting or granting the privilege of marriage. Gender is inappropriate by the same token.  Last, what is the basis for concluding that patriarchy is the inevitable result of SSM?  Both men and women have equal rights in such a jurisdiction- what then would found the supremacy of the males?  Indeed, traditional marriage has historically promoted gender hierarchy with women receiving the short end of the stick.  Might not defense of that traditional hierarchy itself perversely result in fewer women entering the institution?  Much of the tradition-based anti-SSM rhetoric is vulnerable to that risk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I make some similar criticism&#8217;s of Hudson&#8217;s &#8220;gender apartheid&#8221; arguments in my book, &#8220;Homosexuality: A Straight BYU Student&#8217;s Perspective&#8221; (<a href="https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1u3K43P-3JoYTUzNjYwMGEtNzNmYi00ODkwLTllMzYtNjRlOTVlMWUwYTM2&#038;hl=en" rel="nofollow">https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B1u3K43P-3JoYTUzNjYwMGEtNzNmYi00ODkwLTllMzYtNjRlOTVlMWUwYTM2&#038;hl=en</a>).  I have a similar appreciation for Hudson&#8217;s level of discourse and scholarly approach.</p>
<p>An excerpt: </p>
<p>Interlocutor: “There is simply no other arrangement that can ground every human family in gender equality—companionate heterosexual monogamous marriage (as the essay entitled &#8220;Some Things Which Should Not Have Been Forgotten Were Lost &#8221; in this issue terms it) is simply “it.”  No gender unequal relationship (even if it is called “marriage”) and no gender apartheid arrangement (with a person of the same sex or with no other person at all) can ground the households of the human family in gender equality. ”  Also, “If men and women live separate lives within their society, a hierarchy of men over women—with its attendant slide towards malignant patriarchy&#8211;is the inevitable result… the state itself has a vested interest in the creation and promulgation of companionate heterosexual monogamous marriage (G arrangements)—and likewise has a vested interest in the proactive hindrance of evolutionary marriage and gender apartheid. It is only through the widespread existence of companionate heterosexual monogamous marriages that democracy, freedom, prosperity, and other goods such as state peacefulness can continue to have strong root and be sustainable. ”<br />
My response: Does allowing an African American to another African American frustrate racial equality?  Should we instead require that an African American marry a Caucasian, or a Japanese person marry a non-Japanese, to promote racial equality?  How about religion- should we mandate Catholic-Jew weddings, and bar the pairing of two Southern Baptists, to promote religious equality? “One must wonder why it is necessary to prohibit same-sex marriage to promote gender equality when it suffices to permit interracial marriage to promote racial equality. ” Allowing different-race marriage doesn’t evidence the state’s preference for or against same-race marriage- apartheid is an inappropriate comparison because apartheid mandates segregation whereas SSM is merely an option.  The offensiveness of miscegenation laws is not merely because of privileging one race above another, but that race is simply not an appropriate basis for limiting or granting the privilege of marriage. Gender is inappropriate by the same token.  Last, what is the basis for concluding that patriarchy is the inevitable result of SSM?  Both men and women have equal rights in such a jurisdiction- what then would found the supremacy of the males?  Indeed, traditional marriage has historically promoted gender hierarchy with women receiving the short end of the stick.  Might not defense of that traditional hierarchy itself perversely result in fewer women entering the institution?  Much of the tradition-based anti-SSM rhetoric is vulnerable to that risk.</p>
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		<title>By: Jordan</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6680</link>
		<dc:creator>Jordan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:26:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6680</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;Myself, it just seems like cognitive dissonance to uphold the value of women in the world on the one hand and deny the importance of their contribution to the family unit on the other.&quot;—&lt;cite&gt;Proud Daughter of Eve&lt;/cite&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Daughter, homosexual couples include those consisting of two women as well as two men. Indeed, lesbian parents are overwhelmingly better studied than families headed by male–male couples.

Additionally: I do not wish to raise children with a woman. I wish to raise them with another man. The fact that I, a homosexual male, am not well-suited to raising children with a female partner is not a personal reflection upon your suitability as a parent, and certainly not on the qualifications of womanhood in general. I could choose, against my nature and better judgement, to marry a woman; however, I would be a poor substitute for the sort of partner she could (and should) have, as she would be for me. It would be a violence to both of us.

My mother is a wonderful woman, and so I can affirm happily that women have &lt;em&gt;plenty&lt;/em&gt; to contribute to the family. That is why it is better that they do not marry gay men, which does a deep disservice to their talents. If a woman respects herself and her calling to parenthood, she will find herself a far better match. There is no reason to block me from my own calling to love, family and happiness, since doing so cannot materially improve your own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;Myself, it just seems like cognitive dissonance to uphold the value of women in the world on the one hand and deny the importance of their contribution to the family unit on the other.&#8221;—<cite>Proud Daughter of Eve</cite></p></blockquote>
<p>Daughter, homosexual couples include those consisting of two women as well as two men. Indeed, lesbian parents are overwhelmingly better studied than families headed by male–male couples.</p>
<p>Additionally: I do not wish to raise children with a woman. I wish to raise them with another man. The fact that I, a homosexual male, am not well-suited to raising children with a female partner is not a personal reflection upon your suitability as a parent, and certainly not on the qualifications of womanhood in general. I could choose, against my nature and better judgement, to marry a woman; however, I would be a poor substitute for the sort of partner she could (and should) have, as she would be for me. It would be a violence to both of us.</p>
<p>My mother is a wonderful woman, and so I can affirm happily that women have <em>plenty</em> to contribute to the family. That is why it is better that they do not marry gay men, which does a deep disservice to their talents. If a woman respects herself and her calling to parenthood, she will find herself a far better match. There is no reason to block me from my own calling to love, family and happiness, since doing so cannot materially improve your own.</p>
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		<title>By: TT</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6679</link>
		<dc:creator>TT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 23:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6679</guid>
		<description>Little Sister,
You may be right that Hudson&#039;s argument presupposes familiarity with these works to excuse her from having to cite any specific examples or demonstrate the causal connections she makes so reductively.  In the same way, my use of &quot;heteronormative&quot; and &quot;gender essentialist&quot; presupposes familiarity with feminist theory over the last 20 years, since Judith Butler&#039;s &lt;i&gt;Gender Trouble&lt;/i&gt;.
If you&#039;re right that these &quot;evolutionary&quot; based arguments truly &quot;represent some of the best feminist research currently being done in the field of international relations,&quot; then it is clear that IR has not been listening to post-colonial, queer, and Third World feminist critiques leveled against these kinds Western feminist tracts for the last 30 years.  For a more recent critique of this kind of international feminism, you might enjoy Saba Mahmood, &lt;i&gt;Politics of Piety&lt;/i&gt; which dismantles Western feminist categories for analyzing Islam, which is specifically informed by Butlerian feminism.  
While I did not develop this line of argument, instead focusing on Hudson&#039;s definition of &quot;gender equality,&quot; I&#039;d be surprised if the author&#039;s she is citing adopt her restrictive definition, but instead focus on women&#039;s access to social, political, and economic capital outside of the home.  So, even if you&#039;re right that these books make their case, I still am not convinced that Hudson&#039;s case is made by citing them.
My critique of the books she cites is included in the original review: &quot;The books suffer from the characteristic inability of evolutionary theories to explain complex social phenomena by reducing human desires to the fight for survival and the desire to reproduce. Scientists and journalists who advance these theories generally pay little attention to the philosophical literature which has critiqued such views and offered much richer complexity to them, notably the psychoanalytic, sociological, and anthropological discourses that have developed since Darwin.&quot;
If you disagree with my assessment of these works, I&#039;d be interested in hearing your arguments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Little Sister,<br />
You may be right that Hudson&#8217;s argument presupposes familiarity with these works to excuse her from having to cite any specific examples or demonstrate the causal connections she makes so reductively.  In the same way, my use of &#8220;heteronormative&#8221; and &#8220;gender essentialist&#8221; presupposes familiarity with feminist theory over the last 20 years, since Judith Butler&#8217;s <i>Gender Trouble</i>.<br />
If you&#8217;re right that these &#8220;evolutionary&#8221; based arguments truly &#8220;represent some of the best feminist research currently being done in the field of international relations,&#8221; then it is clear that IR has not been listening to post-colonial, queer, and Third World feminist critiques leveled against these kinds Western feminist tracts for the last 30 years.  For a more recent critique of this kind of international feminism, you might enjoy Saba Mahmood, <i>Politics of Piety</i> which dismantles Western feminist categories for analyzing Islam, which is specifically informed by Butlerian feminism.<br />
While I did not develop this line of argument, instead focusing on Hudson&#8217;s definition of &#8220;gender equality,&#8221; I&#8217;d be surprised if the author&#8217;s she is citing adopt her restrictive definition, but instead focus on women&#8217;s access to social, political, and economic capital outside of the home.  So, even if you&#8217;re right that these books make their case, I still am not convinced that Hudson&#8217;s case is made by citing them.<br />
My critique of the books she cites is included in the original review: &#8220;The books suffer from the characteristic inability of evolutionary theories to explain complex social phenomena by reducing human desires to the fight for survival and the desire to reproduce. Scientists and journalists who advance these theories generally pay little attention to the philosophical literature which has critiqued such views and offered much richer complexity to them, notably the psychoanalytic, sociological, and anthropological discourses that have developed since Darwin.&#8221;<br />
If you disagree with my assessment of these works, I&#8217;d be interested in hearing your arguments.</p>
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		<title>By: Little Sister</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6678</link>
		<dc:creator>Little Sister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 21:44:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6678</guid>
		<description>TT, Thank you for writing this response, I found it very insightful. I agree with you that Dr. Hudson&#039;s argument is flawed because homosexuality must be taken as a given in our society and because such a minority is not so much an existential threat to the existence of equal heterosexual marriage as, say, Britney Spears. 
However, I would warn against making jabs like, &quot;There are numerous sweeping claims along these lines that are simply footnoted, without any specific empirical examples.&quot; The article Dr. Hudson wrote was not intended to be a 100-page treatise that incorporated all available regression analysis results into the text, but it easily could have been. Those footnotes you skimmed over? They represent some of the best feminist research currently being done in the field of international relations. Relatively hollow accusations like &quot;heteronormative&quot; and &quot;gender essentialist&quot; leave way more gaps than Dr. Hudson did.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TT, Thank you for writing this response, I found it very insightful. I agree with you that Dr. Hudson&#8217;s argument is flawed because homosexuality must be taken as a given in our society and because such a minority is not so much an existential threat to the existence of equal heterosexual marriage as, say, Britney Spears.<br />
However, I would warn against making jabs like, &#8220;There are numerous sweeping claims along these lines that are simply footnoted, without any specific empirical examples.&#8221; The article Dr. Hudson wrote was not intended to be a 100-page treatise that incorporated all available regression analysis results into the text, but it easily could have been. Those footnotes you skimmed over? They represent some of the best feminist research currently being done in the field of international relations. Relatively hollow accusations like &#8220;heteronormative&#8221; and &#8220;gender essentialist&#8221; leave way more gaps than Dr. Hudson did.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6677</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 02:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6677</guid>
		<description>I have posted some thoughts related to my comments above about public reason at my blog:

http://approachingjustice.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/a-glimpse-of-public-reason-lincoln-and-rawls/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have posted some thoughts related to my comments above about public reason at my blog:</p>
<p><a href="http://approachingjustice.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/a-glimpse-of-public-reason-lincoln-and-rawls/" rel="nofollow">http://approachingjustice.wordpress.com/2009/04/24/a-glimpse-of-public-reason-lincoln-and-rawls/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6676</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:31:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6676</guid>
		<description>The identity thing would very much be an issue, though Hudson did use an alternative name. Plus, FPR is the next best thing to peer-review and Square Two is in many ways as much a blog as it is a &quot;journal.&quot; Not that there is anything wrong with that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The identity thing would very much be an issue, though Hudson did use an alternative name. Plus, FPR is the next best thing to peer-review and Square Two is in many ways as much a blog as it is a &#8220;journal.&#8221; Not that there is anything wrong with that.</p>
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		<title>By: TT</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6675</link>
		<dc:creator>TT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6675</guid>
		<description>Robert,
Thanks, I appreciate that.  Don&#039;t worry about the comments...they have nothing to do with the post! 
My concern is that submitting a piece, even to an online journal, probably requires revealing my identity, and I have no desire to do that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,<br />
Thanks, I appreciate that.  Don&#8217;t worry about the comments&#8230;they have nothing to do with the post!<br />
My concern is that submitting a piece, even to an online journal, probably requires revealing my identity, and I have no desire to do that.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert C.</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6674</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6674</guid>
		<description>TT #45,

Having read your post (but not the comments yet), I really would encourage you to submit this to Square Two. This is, I think, precisely the kind of thoughtful response that I think they are hoping to get (and if not, well then, at least we will have learned something about them...).

As an aside, I think Ralph Hancock&#039;s arguments are much better and more nuanced than Cassler&#039;s, esp. in his comment #2 under Sherlock&#039;s article in the same issue---so, I would personally like to see these deeper issues he raises addressed more directly (your posts indirectly addresses some but not all of the concerns he raises...).

Thanks again for your thoughtful post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TT #45,</p>
<p>Having read your post (but not the comments yet), I really would encourage you to submit this to Square Two. This is, I think, precisely the kind of thoughtful response that I think they are hoping to get (and if not, well then, at least we will have learned something about them&#8230;).</p>
<p>As an aside, I think Ralph Hancock&#8217;s arguments are much better and more nuanced than Cassler&#8217;s, esp. in his comment #2 under Sherlock&#8217;s article in the same issue&#8212;so, I would personally like to see these deeper issues he raises addressed more directly (your posts indirectly addresses some but not all of the concerns he raises&#8230;).</p>
<p>Thanks again for your thoughtful post.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris H.</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6673</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris H.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 17:16:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6673</guid>
		<description>Now I feel guilty. TT, you are a far better person than I.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now I feel guilty. TT, you are a far better person than I.</p>
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		<title>By: TT</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/04/a-feminist-response-to-valerie-hudson-on-ssm/#comment-6672</link>
		<dc:creator>TT</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 21 Apr 2009 16:18:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=1783#comment-6672</guid>
		<description>Blake,
I want to apologize for the places where my tone comes across as impatient and annoyed.  I really am just super busy right now and am probably trying to rush a conclusion to our discussion too quickly.  In general, I am quite proud of our discussions and I hope that we can maintain a higher level of discourse, if you&#039;ll forgive my failings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blake,<br />
I want to apologize for the places where my tone comes across as impatient and annoyed.  I really am just super busy right now and am probably trying to rush a conclusion to our discussion too quickly.  In general, I am quite proud of our discussions and I hope that we can maintain a higher level of discourse, if you&#8217;ll forgive my failings.</p>
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