Comments on: What to do with the JST…and the GNT http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/ Exploring Mormon Thought, Culture, and Texts Tue, 07 Feb 2012 15:35:48 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Ben S http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7866 Ben S Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:50:06 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7866 There's a lot of stuff there that's not obvious- books, articles, available entirely in pdf sometimes. There’s a lot of stuff there that’s not obvious- books, articles, available entirely in pdf sometimes.

]]> By: g.wesley http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7865 g.wesley Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:48:40 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7865 it looks like 'translations' are there, in some form. better than nothing but still not like the real thing. also a pastiche of quotes in "joseph smith's commentary on the bible." i have never noticed this byu site before. does anyone have any info on when and by whom it was put together? pretty awesome to see the following on the home page, taken directly from the book: "The problem [with the bible] today lies not in our inability to translate ancient languages but in the absences of original or other adequate manuscripts." it looks like ‘translations’ are there, in some form. better than nothing but still not like the real thing. also a pastiche of quotes in “joseph smith’s commentary on the bible.”

i have never noticed this byu site before. does anyone have any info on when and by whom it was put together?

pretty awesome to see the following on the home page, taken directly from the book:

“The problem [with the bible] today lies not in our inability to translate ancient languages but in the absences of original or other adequate manuscripts.”

]]> By: Secco http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7864 Secco Thu, 17 Jun 2010 02:09:52 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7864 Ben @19, it looks like just the introductory chapters, not the actual full texts are online -- am I missing the link somehow? The chapters are useful, but the text itself is of course very valuable and isn't yet online, it appears. Ben @19, it looks like just the introductory chapters, not the actual full texts are online — am I missing the link somehow? The chapters are useful, but the text itself is of course very valuable and isn’t yet online, it appears.

]]> By: g.wesley http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7863 g.wesley Thu, 17 Jun 2010 01:25:55 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7863 as a christian, i prefer the codex to the (sc)roll. still, this is great. thanks, ben s. now if you could locate another methodological slip-up in the gnt, you'd make my day. as a christian, i prefer the codex to the (sc)roll. still, this is great. thanks, ben s. now if you could locate another methodological slip-up in the gnt, you’d make my day.

]]> By: Ben S http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7862 Ben S Wed, 16 Jun 2010 20:24:32 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7862 The book mentioned above in #12 is available online. http://jst.byu.edu/pubJosephSmithNewTranslation.php The book mentioned above in #12 is available online.
http://jst.byu.edu/pubJosephSmithNewTranslation.php

]]> By: smb http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7861 smb Thu, 17 Dec 2009 02:32:40 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7861 Fun to revisit this perennial question and important to remember Kevin's crucial place in the history of this conversation. Kathleen Flake has a great article on JST, as does Phil Barlow. I treat the topic in the Church History article on pure language, and Jared Hickman and I have just started a paper treating translation in Joseph Smith's oeuvre. I personally think that being locked in a RelEd view of JST is dangerous and uninformative. and Kevin is absolutely right that we've had a silly view of JSJ and his inner circle for years. They were reasonably high IQs, were creative thinkers, and read widely. They had access to a wide variety of textual aids, commentaries, and learned expositions. Fun to revisit this perennial question and important to remember Kevin’s crucial place in the history of this conversation.
Kathleen Flake has a great article on JST, as does Phil Barlow.
I treat the topic in the Church History article on pure language, and Jared Hickman and I have just started a paper treating translation in Joseph Smith’s oeuvre. I personally think that being locked in a RelEd view of JST is dangerous and uninformative.
and Kevin is absolutely right that we’ve had a silly view of JSJ and his inner circle for years. They were reasonably high IQs, were creative thinkers, and read widely. They had access to a wide variety of textual aids, commentaries, and learned expositions.

]]> By: g.wesley http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7860 g.wesley Tue, 15 Dec 2009 04:23:33 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7860 Thanks for the details and interesting observations. Unfortunate that there aren't any examples of types one and two. Thanks for the details and interesting observations.

Unfortunate that there aren’t any examples of types one and two.

]]> By: Secco http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7859 Secco Tue, 15 Dec 2009 03:56:28 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7859 GW-15, sorry to hear you can't find a local copy. I like the one I borrowed from the library enough that I'm considering asking for a copy for Christmas (although I have these vague worries that it will be superseded by a new Joseph Smith Papers project). Anyway, the essays up front are quite interesting, not only for the explicit recognition of the categories, but for many other things; to this audience, one of note is the in-print Hostility that Kevin Barney mentioned earlier. For example, p 10 has the comment, "Some have dismissed the JST because its changes are not verified in ancient manuscripts" and references Kevin B's 1986 Dialogue article as well as Ashment's chapter in "The Word of God". That seems like a harsh reading of the Dialogue article given that the opening paragraph says "I think the JST has considerable worth," and doesn't seem dismissive to me at all. As for explicit examples of each, the essay spends three pages describing the types of changes, but doesn't provide examples of the first two types. For the third, changes from "wot" to "know" etc., are listed, as well as the change from "a holy kiss" to "a holy salutation." For the 4th, three examples are given: modifying "No man hath seen God at any time" (John 1:18); revising the donkey misunderstanding in Matthew 21:2-3,7; and the harmonization of accounts of Judas' death in Matt 27:3-5 & Acts 1:16-19. Discussion of type 5 is perhaps the most interesting; they cite Elder McConkie: "speaking of the differences between the early Genesis chapters in the Bible and the JST, [he] said 'both of them are true.' He stated that John 1 in the Bible 'is true' yet the JST gives it 'an entirely new perspective.' 'These are illustrations of the fact that there can be two translations of the same thing and both of them can be true.'" This fits with the way I see the JST: extremely valuable, a treasure, that, as Kevin Barney's 1986 article puts it, "has considerable worth and merits careful study from the perspectives of both faith and scholarship," and yet it does not exclude continuing to value and utilize the standard Bible text. Specifically, Joseph Smith seemed to continue to quote from and build doctrine upon the standard KJV text even though the JST had modified it heavily -- two examples that come to mind include "wise as serpents" being used in D&C 111 even though the JST Matt 10 got rid of the phrase some five years earlier ("wise Servents" [sic]), and the last verse of Heb 11 being the foundation for vicarious ordinances even though JST Heb 11:40 removes the basis for this. It seems fair to conclude that the JST was not a replacement for the KJV in many situations for Joseph Smith, but added light and knowledge. GW-15, sorry to hear you can’t find a local copy. I like the one I borrowed from the library enough that I’m considering asking for a copy for Christmas (although I have these vague worries that it will be superseded by a new Joseph Smith Papers project).

Anyway, the essays up front are quite interesting, not only for the explicit recognition of the categories, but for many other things; to this audience, one of note is the in-print Hostility that Kevin Barney mentioned earlier. For example, p 10 has the comment, “Some have dismissed the JST because its changes are not verified in ancient manuscripts” and references Kevin B’s 1986 Dialogue article as well as Ashment’s chapter in “The Word of God”. That seems like a harsh reading of the Dialogue article given that the opening paragraph says “I think the JST has considerable worth,” and doesn’t seem dismissive to me at all.

As for explicit examples of each, the essay spends three pages describing the types of changes, but doesn’t provide examples of the first two types. For the third, changes from “wot” to “know” etc., are listed, as well as the change from “a holy kiss” to “a holy salutation.” For the 4th, three examples are given: modifying “No man hath seen God at any time” (John 1:18); revising the donkey misunderstanding in Matthew 21:2-3,7; and the harmonization of accounts of Judas’ death in Matt 27:3-5 & Acts 1:16-19.

Discussion of type 5 is perhaps the most interesting; they cite Elder McConkie: “speaking of the differences between the early Genesis chapters in the Bible and the JST, [he] said ‘both of them are true.’ He stated that John 1 in the Bible ‘is true’ yet the JST gives it ‘an entirely new perspective.’ ‘These are illustrations of the fact that there can be two translations of the same thing and both of them can be true.’”

This fits with the way I see the JST: extremely valuable, a treasure, that, as Kevin Barney’s 1986 article puts it, “has considerable worth and merits careful study from the perspectives of both faith and scholarship,” and yet it does not exclude continuing to value and utilize the standard Bible text. Specifically, Joseph Smith seemed to continue to quote from and build doctrine upon the standard KJV text even though the JST had modified it heavily — two examples that come to mind include “wise as serpents” being used in D&C 111 even though the JST Matt 10 got rid of the phrase some five years earlier (“wise Servents” [sic]), and the last verse of Heb 11 being the foundation for vicarious ordinances even though JST Heb 11:40 removes the basis for this. It seems fair to conclude that the JST was not a replacement for the KJV in many situations for Joseph Smith, but added light and knowledge.

]]> By: g.wesley http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7858 g.wesley Mon, 14 Dec 2009 15:04:22 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7858 Thanks Secco. The Faulring/Jackson/Matthews volume would come in handy right now. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a copy here among the nations. Could you be imposed upon to tell us whether the editors list any passages under these five types of changes, especially types 1 and 2? Thanks Secco.

The Faulring/Jackson/Matthews volume would come in handy right now. Unfortunately, I don’t have access to a copy here among the nations.

Could you be imposed upon to tell us whether the editors list any passages under these five types of changes, especially types 1 and 2?

]]> By: David B http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2009/12/what-to-do-with-the-jst-and-the-gnt/#comment-7857 David B Mon, 14 Dec 2009 05:59:56 +0000 http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2553#comment-7857 For what it's worth, i've long thought the Community of Christ got it right. Instead of referring to the “Joseph Smith Translation”, it's called the “Inspired Version”—reflecting the idea that it's not a translation in the usual sense, or even a restoration of the original texts, but rather the result of prophetic insight. For what it’s worth, i’ve long thought the Community of Christ got it right. Instead of referring to the “Joseph Smith Translation”, it’s called the “Inspired Version”—reflecting the idea that it’s not a translation in the usual sense, or even a restoration of the original texts, but rather the result of prophetic insight.

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