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	<title>Comments on: Oaks, Harvard, and &quot;Religion&quot;</title>
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	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/</link>
	<description>Exploring Mormon Thought, Culture, and Texts</description>
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		<title>By: Owen</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11561</link>
		<dc:creator>Owen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I&#039;m always a little surprised by arguments like this since as Mormons we believe there is so much of falsehood in the teachings of religion in general. Do we really think there is something good about people having faith in and basing their moral thinking on false gods?

I personally find it very dangerous to be encouraging belief in obviously false ideas about reality. Even something as banal as young earth creationism I see as leading to moral lassitude--why try to make the world a better place if a wizard is going to wave his magic wand and make everything perfect someday?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m always a little surprised by arguments like this since as Mormons we believe there is so much of falsehood in the teachings of religion in general. Do we really think there is something good about people having faith in and basing their moral thinking on false gods?</p>
<p>I personally find it very dangerous to be encouraging belief in obviously false ideas about reality. Even something as banal as young earth creationism I see as leading to moral lassitude&#8211;why try to make the world a better place if a wizard is going to wave his magic wand and make everything perfect someday?</p>
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		<title>By: Steve M</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11560</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Good point, Mark D. Oaks seems to be conflating religious neutrality with moral neutrality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Mark D. Oaks seems to be conflating religious neutrality with moral neutrality.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11559</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 10:08:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;em&gt;Does Oaks mean to say out-loud that the Mormon Church is becoming alarmingly marginalized?&lt;/em&gt;

He didn&#039;t say the Mormon Church but rather religion in general:

&lt;blockquote&gt;With but few exceptions, colleges and universities have become value-free places where attitudes toward religion are neutral at best.  Some faculty and administrators are powerful contributors to the forces that are driving religion to the margins of American society.  Students and other religious people who believe in the living reality of God and moral absolutes are being marginalized.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don&#039;t think he is right about &quot;value free places&quot; though. Universities are powerful advocates of all sorts of secular values, most of which there are an overwhelming consensus for, and some which are of course rather controversial.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Does Oaks mean to say out-loud that the Mormon Church is becoming alarmingly marginalized?</em></p>
<p>He didn&#8217;t say the Mormon Church but rather religion in general:</p>
<blockquote><p>With but few exceptions, colleges and universities have become value-free places where attitudes toward religion are neutral at best.  Some faculty and administrators are powerful contributors to the forces that are driving religion to the margins of American society.  Students and other religious people who believe in the living reality of God and moral absolutes are being marginalized.</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t think he is right about &#8220;value free places&#8221; though. Universities are powerful advocates of all sorts of secular values, most of which there are an overwhelming consensus for, and some which are of course rather controversial.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen M (Ethesis)</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11558</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M (Ethesis)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Mar 2010 02:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2788#comment-11558</guid>
		<description>8 &lt;i&gt;This is just simply not the case. Why do religious leaders make this argument?&lt;/i&gt; Because it is what they perceive from the media they watch.  There is a general hostility to much of religion and religious claims on the part of large sections of the media.  So not a shunning, but a definite marginalization is what they perceive. -- see comment 10.

&lt;i&gt;Comment by an attendee of the talk&lt;/i&gt; -- thanks for the comments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>8 <i>This is just simply not the case. Why do religious leaders make this argument?</i> Because it is what they perceive from the media they watch.  There is a general hostility to much of religion and religious claims on the part of large sections of the media.  So not a shunning, but a definite marginalization is what they perceive. &#8212; see comment 10.</p>
<p><i>Comment by an attendee of the talk</i> &#8212; thanks for the comments.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark D.</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11557</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2788#comment-11557</guid>
		<description>If you believe in &lt;em&gt;moral realism&lt;/em&gt;,  the fact value distinction is not as clear cut as it might otherwise appear.

Once upon a time universities were convinced that certain moral propositions were actually &lt;em&gt;true&lt;/em&gt;.  Generally speaking, that is no longer the case, or we wouldn&#039;t use such insipid terms as &quot;value&quot; in the first place.

Either way the answer to the question of &quot;whose values?&quot; is those that academia can make a good case that they are not properly speaking &quot;values&quot; at all, but rather moral imperatives, at least when conditioned on certain widely held fundamental propositions (pain and suffering are bad, for example).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you believe in <em>moral realism</em>,  the fact value distinction is not as clear cut as it might otherwise appear.</p>
<p>Once upon a time universities were convinced that certain moral propositions were actually <em>true</em>.  Generally speaking, that is no longer the case, or we wouldn&#8217;t use such insipid terms as &#8220;value&#8221; in the first place.</p>
<p>Either way the answer to the question of &#8220;whose values?&#8221; is those that academia can make a good case that they are not properly speaking &#8220;values&#8221; at all, but rather moral imperatives, at least when conditioned on certain widely held fundamental propositions (pain and suffering are bad, for example).</p>
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		<title>By: Steve M</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11556</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:36:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2788#comment-11556</guid>
		<description>*Impliedly, he &lt;i&gt;thinks&lt;/i&gt; universities have a responsibility . . .</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>*Impliedly, he <i>thinks</i> universities have a responsibility . . .</p>
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		<title>By: Steve M</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11555</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve M</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:33:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2788#comment-11555</guid>
		<description>Oaks&#039; claim that institutions of higher education ought to be instilling religious values simply begs the question: &quot;Whose values?&quot; Impliedly, he universities have a responsibility to teach those values that resemble his own--if not uniquely LDS values, then at least conservative Christian values.

I don&#039;t see how this can be squared with universities&#039; responsibility to serve pluralistic student bodies. What makes Oaks&#039; particular brand of morality so special? What about the moral views of liberal Christians or Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or unbelievers? I don&#039;t see how Oaks can realistically or reasonably argue that universities owe allegiance to his particular brand of morality, especially when they serve such a diverse population.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oaks&#8217; claim that institutions of higher education ought to be instilling religious values simply begs the question: &#8220;Whose values?&#8221; Impliedly, he universities have a responsibility to teach those values that resemble his own&#8211;if not uniquely LDS values, then at least conservative Christian values.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t see how this can be squared with universities&#8217; responsibility to serve pluralistic student bodies. What makes Oaks&#8217; particular brand of morality so special? What about the moral views of liberal Christians or Jews or Muslims or Buddhists or unbelievers? I don&#8217;t see how Oaks can realistically or reasonably argue that universities owe allegiance to his particular brand of morality, especially when they serve such a diverse population.</p>
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		<title>By: george</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11554</link>
		<dc:creator>george</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2788#comment-11554</guid>
		<description>Does Oaks mean to say out-loud that the Mormon Church is becoming alarmingly marginalized?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Oaks mean to say out-loud that the Mormon Church is becoming alarmingly marginalized?</p>
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		<title>By: Christopher</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11553</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 06:31:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2788#comment-11553</guid>
		<description>Some of the questions from the Q&amp;A were included the Deseret News&#039;s coverage of the story: http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700012474/Dont-marginalize-religion-Elder-Oaks-says-to-Harvard-law-students.html?pg=1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some of the questions from the Q&amp;A were included the Deseret News&#8217;s coverage of the story: <a href="http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700012474/Dont-marginalize-religion-Elder-Oaks-says-to-Harvard-law-students.html?pg=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700012474/Dont-marginalize-religion-Elder-Oaks-says-to-Harvard-law-students.html?pg=1</a></p>
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		<title>By: AHLDuke</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/faithpromotingrumor/2010/02/oaks-harvard-and-religion/#comment-11552</link>
		<dc:creator>AHLDuke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 01 Mar 2010 05:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/?p=2788#comment-11552</guid>
		<description>Elder Christofferson is visiting Duke Law School in a couple of weeks to give a lecture to the entire law school (and not simply at the invitation of the local LDSSA or LDS law students group).  The topic of his lecture is more biographical (he is an alum and famously worked with the judge who preceded over the Watergate hearings) rather than being focused on LDS doctrine.  At the same time, I cannot imagine that it will not come out somehow.  Duke law students are a pretty liberal bunch (I am no longer a student there as of 2 years ago, but am getting fed information by friends who are), and I would be very surprised if Prop 8, etc. did not come up at least once.

I wonder how GAs handle these occasions when speaking to mostly non-LDS people.  It seems to me that it would pose a particular problem where their claims on deference from their listeners due to ecclesiastical authority (and the particular brand of uncritical deference that LDS GAs are accustomed to) are not longer operative.  I have no doubt that these are highly intelligent, accomplished and capable individuals, but it concerns me in situations like the one Elder Christofferson will be in that they are not in the custom of being seriously challenged by people who are not frightened and submissive to their title.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Elder Christofferson is visiting Duke Law School in a couple of weeks to give a lecture to the entire law school (and not simply at the invitation of the local LDSSA or LDS law students group).  The topic of his lecture is more biographical (he is an alum and famously worked with the judge who preceded over the Watergate hearings) rather than being focused on LDS doctrine.  At the same time, I cannot imagine that it will not come out somehow.  Duke law students are a pretty liberal bunch (I am no longer a student there as of 2 years ago, but am getting fed information by friends who are), and I would be very surprised if Prop 8, etc. did not come up at least once.</p>
<p>I wonder how GAs handle these occasions when speaking to mostly non-LDS people.  It seems to me that it would pose a particular problem where their claims on deference from their listeners due to ecclesiastical authority (and the particular brand of uncritical deference that LDS GAs are accustomed to) are not longer operative.  I have no doubt that these are highly intelligent, accomplished and capable individuals, but it concerns me in situations like the one Elder Christofferson will be in that they are not in the custom of being seriously challenged by people who are not frightened and submissive to their title.</p>
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