I changed a couple words in your response to reflect how I feel.

Christianity gives people a false sense of reality when they think they are looking at it innocently, they don’t realize that the images play in their minds over and over and when they are with someone they love, their idea of the way things should be because of what they’ve seen, affects their loved one. The thing (Christianity) with children is never right in any way shape or form, I don’t care who or what the situation. Depening on God is damaging whether the people involved realize it at the time or not. They will eventually. I’ve met several people that found out how painful it is after they were done having their church service. Only, it has left some mentally incapable of dealing with reality and never able to find the true escape from the pain.

Sexual conduct is a huge issue especially for a lot of men. Whether it be infidelity in any way, pornography, or crimes against children. You may think some is not “immoral,” but when we look at what it does to people that is the determining factor regardless of whether or not you believe in God. Swinging takes the true intentions out of a marriage, allowing it to be casual and less meaningful. Infidelity leads to painful divorce and children torn between two parents and often later two families. Pornography gives people a false sense of reality when they think they are looking at it innocently, they don’t realize that the images play in their minds over and over and when they are with someone they love, their idea of the way things should be because of what they’ve seen, affects their loved one. The thing with children is never right in any way shape or form, I don’t care who or what the situation. Sexual relationships outside the parameters of a committed relationship, are damaging whether the people involved realize it at the time or not. They will eventually. I’ve met several people that found out how painful it is after they were done having their fun. Only, it has left some mentally incapable of dealing with reality and never able to find the true escape from the pain.

The crime against child is immoral, the rest are not even if you don’t agree. They are not of sufficient intellect to make sound judgements yet. The idea of marriage is not for you to decide. The bible is clear on polygymy and multiple concubines, it condones it completely. I’m not disagreeing that a stable home with 2 parents(gay or straight) is usually the best environment but there is some positive ideas with “it takes a village” to raise kids. Parents, teachers, extended family and neighbors all mold kids. It’s not up to you to decide how 2 people decide to honor their vows to each other. It’s not less meaninful to them if they agree to orgies and nude clubs, that’s their maritial agreement. Infidelity leads to painful divorce if the problem can’t be rectified. Bill and Hillary are still together, never got divorced. Chelsea is just fine and got a six figure job at some consulting firm. Pornography does not give a false sense of reality. My wife and I are completely happy with our sex life and if memory serves me right we are having sex just like they did in pornos. Nothing wild, just fun. You do know sex runs through a guys mind about 1 time per minute, it’s part of our evolutionary being. It’s natural to think about sex, not something to be condemned. If two people are having sex and they agree to a casual relationship without commitment that’s their choice. If one of them has a kid and the kid sees this then yes it’s not a positive situation but it’s also not positive to have the adult friend come over and get drunk in front of the kid. It’s part of being a role model and being responsible. Any act that isn’t responsible isn’t setting a good example. I had relationships before my wife and I’m grateful to learn from them. Some girls were committed Christians having sex before marriage and I’m glad I didn’t end up with them. I learned from them that I didn’t want a devoted Christian wife. You’ve also met someone who is not hurt and in pain from prior relationships but more more grateful to knowing what he didn’t want in a spouse. I’m sure some of my ex-girlfriends do reflect on what they had and hopefully were able to grow and learn from the experience of having a great guy that wasn’t a Christian. If you continue to put people in negative situations for not adhering to your standards I will eventually get to the Christians who get married and do damage to their children for instilling strict xianity on the kids. That’s damaging as I see it.

We could go into great details about right and wrong, but it would probably be useless since you and I may not agree on each issue simply because of our religious/non-religious beliefs. I agree with you that it’s wrong regardless of who you are to stand and point a finger about immorality when you are participating in immorality behind closed doors. Leaders, whether Christian or not, whether conservative or not, have to be willing to take the immorality out of their own life if they are going to tell others not to participate in such things. It is sad and there is no excuse for it. I couldn’t tell you that you shouldn’t steal the candy bar from the convenience store, and all the while be stocked up on stolen candy bars at home. Sexual conduct is a huge issue especially for a lot of men. Whether it be infidelity in any way, pornography, or crimes against children. You may think some is not “immoral,” but when we look at what it does to people that is the determining factor regardless of whether or not you believe in God. Swinging takes the true intentions out of a marriage, allowing it to be casual and less meaningful. Infidelity leads to painful divorce and children torn between two parents and often later two families. Pornography gives people a false sense of reality when they think they are looking at it innocently, they don’t realize that the images play in their minds over and over and when they are with someone they love, their idea of the way things should be because of what they’ve seen, affects their loved one. The thing with children is never right in any way shape or form, I don’t care who or what the situation. Sexual relationships outside the parameters of a committed relationship, are damaging whether the people involved realize it at the time or not. They will eventually. I’ve met several people that found out how painful it is after they were done having their fun. Only, it has left some mentally incapable of dealing with reality and never able to find the true escape from the pain.

My thoughts, sorry for rambling.

I agree we are all human and make mistakes. But I don’t think Haggard made a mistake this week, I think he made the mistake prior to that by telling us that two consenting adults are immoral for being gay. If I do something wrong I hope I do have the cogniscience to realize my error and if I don’t my wife will be happy to remind me of the error of my ways I am going to have to disagree with you. Clinton was bashed and still is for having sex with a legal adult. Foley and the entire Catholic church is hardly having a finger wagged in their face. I don’t know of any lefties that approve of NAMBLA other than members of NAMBLA. I’m clearly verbalizing that I don’t agree with adults and children getting together sexually. The left are more cowardice when it comes to NAMBLA but they definitely more silent when it comes to interfering with the lives of other adults like gays. Rape is wrong, I don’t know anyone on the left that thinks it’s ok. Infidelity is wrong to you. If two adults are swingers and they agree to it that’s their business not mine and not yours. Cheating is wrong. There are so many grey areas that I don’t know where to begin. If I tell a cop I thought I was doing 55 when I was really doing 56 is that really lying and cheating and worthy of a big deal? It may be wrong but just marginally and happens everyday without consequence. Lying is wrong? If a large woman or man(to be fair) asked me if they looked fat in an outfit and they were overweight I have to decide to lie and I will. It’s more wrong for me to try and presume they don’t have a genetic disorder than to judge them. If they are fat I’m sure they know it and don’t need me to degrade them. I could very well consider it a lie to say God is real and I do but you probably don’t right? Is is a lie to say god isn’t real? Depends on who you ask.

So, from now on, instead of apologizing, we should say “I’m sorry you interpreted it wrong.” How is it an interpretaton issue when he said “if you work hard and educate yourself you’ll do fine, if not, you’ll end up in Iraq.” How else should one interpret this other than, “you are stupid if you are in Iraq.” So, if I told you that you were uneducated because you were an atheist (which I’m not saying, I’m just using an analogy) then you would take that as “you are dumb because you are an atheist,” right? So, then instead of saying I’m sorry I said something that hurt you, I should say “I’m sorry you don’t know how to interpret, which again indicates you are stupid.”

What I’m saying whether you are left or right is ALL of us are human. All of us are perfectly capable of making mistakes but the left doesn’t want the finger in their face when they do something wrong. If you take a leftie who is a child molester and a rightie that is a child molestor, you will always get more criticism facing the right side. Only because they verbalize what is right and wrong? So, then what you are saying is the left are cowards because they aren’t willing to stand up for right and wrong even if it isn’t by a religious standard? Rape is wrong regardless, infidelity is wrong regardless, cheating and lying are wrong regardless of religious orientation.

So far left liberals are perfect?

Yes, all liberals are perfect. Kerry didn’t make a faux paux last week when he insulted the troops. It was only the right that was unable to correctly understand his message. I’ve yet to meet a liberal that states Clinton was absolutely doing the right thing by fooling around with Monica Lewinsky. The difference is Clinton didn’t give weekly Sunday morning speeches condemning infidelity unlike Haggard condemning homosexuals. Do you understand the difference where the left generally says adults can do what they want if they aren’t intentionally hurting someone and the right condemns things like recreational drug use, premarital sex and homosexuality though it has no effect on your life. (Yes, if someone came into your house drunk and had sex in front of your family that would be completely different.)

“There is no scandal. According to evangelicals, Satan targetted Haggard and took him out.”

Not so! Haggard had a choice, just like all of us do. Satan didn’t bend his arm backwards and force him to do anything, that is if he actually did do anything besides receive a massage and buy meth. For those things even, he chose to do it when faced with tempting choices. Each person has a weakness and are capable of making choices that aren’t good for them. THOSE evangelicals that claim it was Satan’s fault are fooling themselves.