Comments on: Am I Bad? http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/ by Hemant Mehta Fri, 25 May 2012 23:26:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: dorkafork http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1094 dorkafork Fri, 24 Nov 2006 21:35:08 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1094 Feynman had a great story about coincidences (mentioned in Six Easy Pieces): "You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot. And you won't believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight? Amazing!" Feynman had a great story about coincidences (mentioned in Six Easy Pieces):

“You know, the most amazing thing happened to me tonight. I was coming
here, on the way to the lecture, and I came in through the parking lot.
And you won’t believe what happened. I saw a car with the license plate
ARW 357. Can you imagine? Of all the millions of license plates in the
state, what was the chance that I would see that particular one tonight?
Amazing!”

]]> By: Mikael Johansson http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1062 Mikael Johansson Thu, 23 Nov 2006 16:06:40 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1062 I figured that I would want more people to read my answer, and at the same time, wanted to expound a little bit more than I would have done in a comment here. So at <a href="http://michiexile.livejournal.com/107735.html" rel="nofollow">my Livejournal</a>, my response to this post comes. Adding to it, I have had quite a bit of fun meeting evangelizing mormons out on town. You can throw an american mormon who's hobbling along on learned german quite off balance by swapping language to english as well as calling him on the more questionable theology spouted. One of my favourites, occuring in this as well as in some ID-circles (saw it repeated on Penn&Teller's Bullshit! episode about creationism!) is the idea that morality only comes from knowing that God Exists And Cares. Apparently, the proponents of this argument believe that unless there is some entity actively checking whether you Behave, everyone will degenerate into .. well .. mass orgies, I guess. I never could understand this particular argument. I figured that I would want more people to read my answer, and at the same time, wanted to expound a little bit more than I would have done in a comment here. So at my Livejournal, my response to this post comes.

Adding to it, I have had quite a bit of fun meeting evangelizing mormons out on town. You can throw an american mormon who’s hobbling along on learned german quite off balance by swapping language to english as well as calling him on the more questionable theology spouted.

One of my favourites, occuring in this as well as in some ID-circles (saw it repeated on Penn&Teller’s Bullshit! episode about creationism!) is the idea that morality only comes from knowing that God Exists And Cares. Apparently, the proponents of this argument believe that unless there is some entity actively checking whether you Behave, everyone will degenerate into .. well .. mass orgies, I guess. I never could understand this particular argument.

]]> By: Hemant http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1060 Hemant Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:33:07 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1060 Mike-- It's not that I want to convert this person to atheism. But I don't believe in fate/destiny, for example. I do think things simply happen. There are coincidences all around us. But to say that would've deflated this romantic image she had in her head. And that's what I felt bad about doing. I don't know if that constitutes me evangelizing about atheism, but it was more that notion that there are other explanations to the things she mentioned that I wanted to get across. -- Hemant Mike– It’s not that I want to convert this person to atheism. But I don’t believe in fate/destiny, for example. I do think things simply happen. There are coincidences all around us. But to say that would’ve deflated this romantic image she had in her head. And that’s what I felt bad about doing.

I don’t know if that constitutes me evangelizing about atheism, but it was more that notion that there are other explanations to the things she mentioned that I wanted to get across.

– Hemant

]]> By: Mike C http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1059 Mike C Thu, 23 Nov 2006 07:26:02 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1059 Hemant, what would be your motivations to "evangelize"? Why might it be important to you (or to other atheists) to convince others to become atheists? Is it just about "truth" - i.e. getting others to agree to what you believe is metaphysically true? If so, then why is that important to you? If not, then is there some other reason? Would you take a Dawkins/Harris approach that says religion is evil and the fewer religious people the better; and use that as your motivation to "evangelize"? Just asking.... :) -Mike Hemant, what would be your motivations to “evangelize”? Why might it be important to you (or to other atheists) to convince others to become atheists? Is it just about “truth” – i.e. getting others to agree to what you believe is metaphysically true? If so, then why is that important to you? If not, then is there some other reason? Would you take a Dawkins/Harris approach that says religion is evil and the fewer religious people the better; and use that as your motivation to “evangelize”?

Just asking…. :)

-Mike

]]> By: Jennifer F. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1051 Jennifer F. Wed, 22 Nov 2006 21:49:27 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1051 Whenever someone presents an idea as a fact that is based almost entirely on emotions or gut feelings (the "it was God's will!" kind of statements) it's really tempting to dig down on that and ask them to support their claims. Rarely can they do it. But, hey, why shoot fish in a barrel? If she were actively trying to convert the world to her views you may have wanted to question her, but as it is it sounds like she wasn't bothering anyone and she's found something that makes her feel good. Whenever someone presents an idea as a fact that is based almost entirely on emotions or gut feelings (the “it was God’s will!” kind of statements) it’s really tempting to dig down on that and ask them to support their claims. Rarely can they do it. But, hey, why shoot fish in a barrel? If she were actively trying to convert the world to her views you may have wanted to question her, but as it is it sounds like she wasn’t bothering anyone and she’s found something that makes her feel good.

]]> By: txatheist http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1050 txatheist Wed, 22 Nov 2006 20:42:17 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1050 Shana, What general area did you move to in the South? Just curious as I wasn't nearly as outspoken until I moved to TX 10 years ago. Shana,
What general area did you move to in the South? Just curious as I wasn’t nearly as outspoken until I moved to TX 10 years ago.

]]> By: Shana http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1049 Shana Wed, 22 Nov 2006 19:12:46 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1049 Hello - I'm a new reader & a fellow 'friendly' atheist! I've found myself in that situation more often now that I'm living down south (originally from NY). in particular, my last job (retail) included many co-workers who were vehement christians, and who didn't mind preaching at me on a daily basis. i found that by standing up for what i believed, or didn't believe, i gained their respect and curiosity. they gradually went from trying to convince me to follow their religion to trying to understand where i was coming from. by the time i left that job, i felt that i had gained some friends who looked at me in a whole new light: 'wow, she doesn't believe in God and she's still a good person....'. similarly, i found devout christians who i could get along with! i too feel that i may come off as pompous once and a while, but i find myself outnumbered more often than not, and really having a strong desire to stand up for my own thoughts and opinions. i also think it's important for many people to see the other side of things....it opens their eyes to a broader culture. Hello – I’m a new reader & a fellow ‘friendly’ atheist!
I’ve found myself in that situation more often now that I’m living down south (originally from NY). in particular, my last job (retail) included many co-workers who were vehement christians, and who didn’t mind preaching at me on a daily basis. i found that by standing up for what i believed, or didn’t believe, i gained their respect and curiosity. they gradually went from trying to convince me to follow their religion to trying to understand where i was coming from. by the time i left that job, i felt that i had gained some friends who looked at me in a whole new light: ‘wow, she doesn’t believe in God and she’s still a good person….’. similarly, i found devout christians who i could get along with!
i too feel that i may come off as pompous once and a while, but i find myself outnumbered more often than not, and really having a strong desire to stand up for my own thoughts and opinions. i also think it’s important for many people to see the other side of things….it opens their eyes to a broader culture.

]]> By: txatheist http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1048 txatheist Wed, 22 Nov 2006 17:34:36 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1048 I think Siamang is correct, each situation is different. I was on a date with a girl many years ago who was a minister and later I found out she was also divorced. I was just coming to terms with atheism and we had a very philosophical discussion about it. The date went superb but she lived 8 hours away and we were set up my a mutual friend so I didn't expect it to be serious. We had a barbecue with all our friends the next day and there was no resentment or uneasiness from either of us. I think it boils down to the type of person. Some people want to listen and really care like most on OTM and others are convinced they have evidence that makes their belief correct. I think Siamang is correct, each situation is different. I was on a date with a girl many years ago who was a minister and later I found out she was also divorced. I was just coming to terms with atheism and we had a very philosophical discussion about it. The date went superb but she lived 8 hours away and we were set up my a mutual friend so I didn’t expect it to be serious. We had a barbecue with all our friends the next day and there was no resentment or uneasiness from either of us. I think it boils down to the type of person. Some people want to listen and really care like most on OTM and others are convinced they have evidence that makes their belief correct.

]]> By: Logos http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1047 Logos Wed, 22 Nov 2006 15:57:29 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1047 Hemant, if this was a date I think you should find someone more suitable for you...I am single btw (I kid, I kid) Hemant, if this was a date I think you should find someone more suitable for you…I am single btw (I kid, I kid)

]]> By: Martin Foreman http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1046 Martin Foreman Wed, 22 Nov 2006 13:57:56 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/21/am-i-bad/#comment-1046 Obviously there are a whole range of factors that determine whether and how far to move any discussion towards atheism, but where friends are involved the key factor is whether or not they are ready for the discussion. If they are not ready - and some may never be ready - the only appropriate response is similar to Hernant's here. He was right not to pursue the discussion. All he can do is put her right when she makes false assumptions about atheism. Strangers are a different matter. I find that the topic only comes up when they want to tell me how Christian they are. And then I ask several pertinent questions that depend on their approach. ie, if they insist that religion provides the only basis for morality, I'll draw their attention to the death and destruction that God causes in the Old Testament and I'll compare a rational based morality (which respects all human life) compared to a religious based one (which privileges wealthy married men). If they come up with the-universe-must-have-a-cause argument, I'll ask who / what caused God. If they come up with creationism, I'll ask about the number of animals in the ark (two or seven per species?), what carnivores ate on board, how fresh water fish survived and how the koala got to Australia from Ararat. And so on. That is not an approach for friends. Some of my closest friends - second family, actually - are fervent believers. But they are also extremely tolerant and loving people and I would never dream of creating an argument that would destroy our friendship. If this friendship is valuable to Hernant, he should keep his mouth shut. One day, she may stop assuming and start questioning, and that's when she may start to see reason. Obviously there are a whole range of factors that determine whether and how far to move any discussion towards atheism, but where friends are involved the key factor is whether or not they are ready for the discussion. If they are not ready – and some may never be ready – the only appropriate response is similar to Hernant’s here. He was right not to pursue the discussion. All he can do is put her right when she makes false assumptions about atheism.

Strangers are a different matter. I find that the topic only comes up when they want to tell me how Christian they are. And then I ask several pertinent questions that depend on their approach. ie, if they insist that religion provides the only basis for morality, I’ll draw their attention to the death and destruction that God causes in the Old Testament and I’ll compare a rational based morality (which respects all human life) compared to a religious based one (which privileges wealthy married men). If they come up with the-universe-must-have-a-cause argument, I’ll ask who / what caused God. If they come up with creationism, I’ll ask about the number of animals in the ark (two or seven per species?), what carnivores ate on board, how fresh water fish survived and how the koala got to Australia from Ararat. And so on.

That is not an approach for friends. Some of my closest friends – second family, actually – are fervent believers. But they are also extremely tolerant and loving people and I would never dream of creating an argument that would destroy our friendship. If this friendship is valuable to Hernant, he should keep his mouth shut. One day, she may stop assuming and start questioning, and that’s when she may start to see reason.

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