Comments on: Heretics http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/ by Hemant Mehta Fri, 25 May 2012 23:26:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: Bobby http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1443 Bobby Tue, 12 Dec 2006 04:22:05 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1443 My point is that any wrongdoing has long-term and (if you believe in eternity), eternal implications. I believe if we could really see the way we hurt each other (read each others hearts) we would live in torment today. BC:</blockquote>He’s saying that nothing anyone does deserves eternal, torturous punishment in hell.<blockquote> Why do we assume that hell is only a place for those who have committed the worst atrocities? The most basic and yet horrifying definition of hell I could state is that it is eternity apart from God. Some would argue that hell isn't such a bad place to be, given this simple definition. But I would argue that if our definition of who God is were more accurate according to His character, we would seek to be closer to Him. BC</blockquote>Your post reminds me of the old political saying, “Don’t answer the question they asked. Answer the question you wish they asked.” It’s unfortunate that you didn’t address the point that he actually raised<blockquote> sorry but I didn't read that question in Siamang's post it is not Siamang's fault only my eagerness to explain what I thought was a good response. Please consider any of my responses my best attempt to explain why I believe the way I do - rather than attempts to "defend christianity" we both know I don't stand a chance in that arena. I am not here to start any fights or disputes, only to try to understand why you believe the way you do. My point is that any wrongdoing has long-term and (if you believe in eternity), eternal implications. I believe if we could really see the way we hurt each other (read each others hearts) we would live in torment today.
BC:He’s saying that nothing anyone does deserves eternal, torturous punishment in hell.

Why do we assume that hell is only a place for those who have committed the worst atrocities?

The most basic and yet horrifying definition of hell I could state is that it is eternity apart from God. Some would argue that hell isn’t such a bad place to be, given this simple definition. But I would argue that if our definition of who God is were more accurate according to His character, we would seek to be closer to Him.

BC

Your post reminds me of the old political saying, “Don’t answer the question they asked. Answer the question you wish they asked.” It’s unfortunate that you didn’t address the point that he actually raised

sorry but I didn’t read that question in Siamang’s post it is not Siamang’s fault only my eagerness to explain what I thought was a good response.
Please consider any of my responses my best attempt to explain why I believe the way I do – rather than attempts to “defend christianity” we both know I don’t stand a chance in that arena. I am not here to start any fights or disputes, only to try to understand why you believe the way you do.

]]> By: BC http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1439 BC Mon, 11 Dec 2006 23:43:51 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1439 Bobby: You seem to have skipped past the whole point of Siamang's post. He's not saying that he shouldn't be punished for wrongdoing. He's saying that nothing anyone does deserves eternal, torturous punishment in hell. You seem to have skipped that whole point and argued that wrongdoing requires punishment (as if anyone disputed that). Your post reminds me of the old political saying, "Don't answer the question they asked. Answer the question you wish they asked." It's unfortunate that you didn't address the point that he actually raised - but then, you might not be here defending Christianity if you actually dealt with the issues head-on. Bobby: You seem to have skipped past the whole point of Siamang’s post. He’s not saying that he shouldn’t be punished for wrongdoing. He’s saying that nothing anyone does deserves eternal, torturous punishment in hell. You seem to have skipped that whole point and argued that wrongdoing requires punishment (as if anyone disputed that). Your post reminds me of the old political saying, “Don’t answer the question they asked. Answer the question you wish they asked.” It’s unfortunate that you didn’t address the point that he actually raised – but then, you might not be here defending Christianity if you actually dealt with the issues head-on.

]]> By: Jessica http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1334 Jessica Tue, 05 Dec 2006 18:41:37 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1334 Hello! this is Jessica Bobby's wife, I just wanted to pop in and say hello and comment on one thing Siamang said "But that’s just me. I see many of the dogmas of religion as a sales pitch." no sex before marriage, dress modestly, monogamy, be meek, there ARE abosolutes. With todays mentality that sex sells and what's ok for you might not be ok with me but that's ok too; these concepts are repulisive and not at all popular. Why would anyone with half a brain buy into that? I mean millions of people sleeping around and doing who knows what with who knows who can't be wrong can they? And why on earth do people go to a place every Sunday to hear religious propoganda about paying the church to keep your soul out of mortal doom? That's what happens isn't it? that's what it's all about right? unless that's not what happens and that's not what people buy into. Maybe there's something more. But what could it be? Hello! this is Jessica Bobby’s wife, I just wanted to pop in and say hello and comment on one thing
Siamang said “But that’s just me. I see many of the dogmas of religion as a sales pitch.”
no sex before marriage, dress modestly, monogamy, be meek, there ARE abosolutes.
With todays mentality that sex sells and what’s ok for you might not be ok with me but that’s ok too; these concepts are repulisive and not at all popular. Why would anyone with half a brain buy into that? I mean millions of people sleeping around and doing who knows what with who knows who can’t be wrong can they? And why on earth do people go to a place every Sunday to hear religious propoganda about paying the church to keep your soul out of mortal doom? That’s what happens isn’t it? that’s what it’s all about right? unless that’s not what happens and that’s not what people buy into. Maybe there’s something more. But what could it be?

]]> By: Bobby http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1293 Bobby Sat, 02 Dec 2006 02:58:48 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1293 Hiya Siamang I'm glad you'll share ideas with me. you wrote: "Because it’s infinite punishment for finite sin. Since human life is finite, any infinite reward or punishment makes the sin infinitely miniscule by comparison." Do our actions carry consequences that are exclusively immediate, or do we sometimes carry grudges and emotions for long times? sometimes our entire lives? you wrote: "please enlighten me as to how you rank up there with those entities and you deserve the mother of all Abu Ghraibs." Does anyone, regardless of offence, deserve to be freely forgiven without any consequences? Would it be fair for a judge to award a criminal freedom without any form of punishment for the crimes committed? you wrote: "I suspect you’re guilty of the grievous sin of having been born a son of Adam, and that the rest was a guilt trip layed on you by people anxious to have your money in the collection plate on Sunday. But that’s just me. I see many of the dogmas of religion as a sales pitch." No, I have my own faults, and yes I have been given guilt trips by my "brothers and sisters" and yes some churches do seem to be worshiping the almighty dollar, and many dogmas of religion are just sales pitches. It's not just you, its the truth and the truth is usually evident to everyone who can see clearly. I think my vision is clearing up. God shouldn't be used a money maker or a frivolous (monetary) opportunity. He is the answer to our deepest desires. When I answer these questions, based on my faith in the God of the Bible of course, then I am drawn to the conclusion of Hell's existence, and my deserving to go there, solely for my actions and offences against my fellow man or woman (which are direct offences to their/our creator) I'm sure this is all not new to anyone reading this, I'm just here to trade and share worldviews with as little offensive confrontation as possible. Thanx for your time. Hiya Siamang
I’m glad you’ll share ideas with me.

you wrote:
“Because it’s infinite punishment for finite sin. Since human life is finite, any infinite reward or punishment makes the sin infinitely miniscule by comparison.”

Do our actions carry consequences that are exclusively immediate, or do we sometimes carry grudges and emotions for long times? sometimes our entire lives?

you wrote:
“please enlighten me as to how you rank up there with those entities and you deserve the mother of all Abu Ghraibs.”

Does anyone, regardless of offence, deserve to be freely forgiven without any consequences?
Would it be fair for a judge to award a criminal freedom without any form of punishment for the crimes committed?
you wrote:
“I suspect you’re guilty of the grievous sin of having been born a son of Adam, and that the rest was a guilt trip layed on you by people anxious to have your money in the collection plate on Sunday. But that’s just me. I see many of the dogmas of religion as a sales pitch.”

No, I have my own faults, and yes I have been given guilt trips by my “brothers and sisters” and yes some churches do seem to be worshiping the almighty dollar, and many dogmas of religion are just sales pitches. It’s not just you, its the truth and the truth is usually evident to everyone who can see clearly. I think my vision is clearing up. God shouldn’t be used a money maker or a frivolous (monetary) opportunity. He is the answer to our deepest desires.
When I answer these questions, based on my faith in the God of the Bible of course, then I am drawn to the conclusion of Hell’s existence, and my deserving to go there, solely for my actions and offences against my fellow man or woman (which are direct offences to their/our creator)

I’m sure this is all not new to anyone reading this, I’m just here to trade and share worldviews with as little offensive confrontation as possible. Thanx for your time.

]]> By: Siamang http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1156 Siamang Tue, 28 Nov 2006 20:10:34 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1156 Welcome, Bobby! I'm glad you're here. Even if I'm not in the same place in the journey that you are, I'm really glad that you're here, and I appreciate the desire for friendly conversation (I left the unfriendly places behind.) Bobby, you wrote this: <blockquote>I may not be able to prove or disprove the existence of Hell, but if it does exist, I definitely deserve to go there.</blockquote> I have the opposite view. If Hell exists, NOBODY deserves to go there. Because it's infinite punishment for finite sin. Since human life is finite, any infinite reward or punishment makes the sin infinitely miniscule by comparison. If I said I'd put you in jail for 500 years (and it's Abu Ghrab jail, not regular jail with TV and Shuffleboard) for stealing a toothpick, you'd rightly call that cruel and ruthless and way, way out of proportion. But God does it not for 500 years, not 5000.... not 5 million, five billion or five trillion. Nope. Forever. 500 million gazillion gazillion gazillion gazillion times 100 million quintrillion is NOTHING at all next to forever. Now, you said you deserve it. I can't imagine what you could have done to deserve it (do you happen to be Hitler?) Are you a multiple-convicted child murderer? Perhaps you're Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussain. If I haven't guessed your identity, please enlighten me as to how you rank up there with those entities and you deserve the mother of all Abu Ghraibs. I suspect you're guilty of the grievous sin of having been born a son of Adam, and that the rest was a guilt trip layed on you by people anxious to have your money in the collection plate on Sunday. But that's just me. I see many of the dogmas of religion as a sales pitch. Welcome, Bobby!

I’m glad you’re here. Even if I’m not in the same place in the journey that you are, I’m really glad that you’re here, and I appreciate the desire for friendly conversation (I left the unfriendly places behind.)

Bobby, you wrote this:

I may not be able to prove or disprove the existence of Hell, but if it does exist, I definitely deserve to go there.

I have the opposite view. If Hell exists, NOBODY deserves to go there. Because it’s infinite punishment for finite sin. Since human life is finite, any infinite reward or punishment makes the sin infinitely miniscule by comparison.

If I said I’d put you in jail for 500 years (and it’s Abu Ghrab jail, not regular jail with TV and Shuffleboard) for stealing a toothpick, you’d rightly call that cruel and ruthless and way, way out of proportion. But God does it not for 500 years, not 5000…. not 5 million, five billion or five trillion. Nope. Forever. 500 million gazillion gazillion gazillion gazillion times 100 million quintrillion is NOTHING at all next to forever.

Now, you said you deserve it. I can’t imagine what you could have done to deserve it (do you happen to be Hitler?) Are you a multiple-convicted child murderer? Perhaps you’re Osama Bin Laden or Saddam Hussain.

If I haven’t guessed your identity, please enlighten me as to how you rank up there with those entities and you deserve the mother of all Abu Ghraibs.

I suspect you’re guilty of the grievous sin of having been born a son of Adam, and that the rest was a guilt trip layed on you by people anxious to have your money in the collection plate on Sunday. But that’s just me. I see many of the dogmas of religion as a sales pitch.

]]> By: Bobby http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1138 Bobby Tue, 28 Nov 2006 05:00:10 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1138 I admire CP's ability to question his beliefs. All too often christians don't do this. Most people are guilty of believing things without convincing proof. Can any of us really prove or disprove God's existence? I sure can't. I guess the only one who can prove Gods' existence is God Himself. Anything worth believing is worth questioning. I may not be able to prove or disprove the existence of Hell, but if it does exist, I definitely deserve to go there. I believe in Hell and Heaven, and God, and Jesus. As a follower of Christ I seek people who don't necessarily have the same worldview as me. Just to test and try my own beliefs, and maybe try to coherently explain mine. Jesus has made my life so much more full, and I came to this point only because God revealed Himself to me. I want everyone to know how good he is. I am daily growing into a more full understanding of God, humanity, and life. Man I have got alot to learn. Christians are guilty of turning our backs on anything not familiar to us. I recognize this as a problem, and I am trying to overcome it in my own character. I'm not exactly sure how, but I'm sure that God is working in me to change. This seems like a good place to start. If ever there was a place that a friendly christian could find people willing to talk with someone who had different worldviews it would be with friendly atheists. I admire CP’s ability to question his beliefs. All too often christians don’t do this. Most people are guilty of believing things without convincing proof. Can any of us really prove or disprove God’s existence? I sure can’t. I guess the only one who can prove Gods’ existence is God Himself. Anything worth believing is worth questioning. I may not be able to prove or disprove the existence of Hell, but if it does exist, I definitely deserve to go there. I believe in Hell and Heaven, and God, and Jesus. As a follower of Christ I seek people who don’t necessarily have the same worldview as me. Just to test and try my own beliefs, and maybe try to coherently explain mine. Jesus has made my life so much more full, and I came to this point only because God revealed Himself to me. I want everyone to know how good he is. I am daily growing into a more full understanding of God, humanity, and life. Man I have got alot to learn. Christians are guilty of turning our backs on anything not familiar to us. I recognize this as a problem, and I am trying to overcome it in my own character. I’m not exactly sure how, but I’m sure that God is working in me to change. This seems like a good place to start. If ever there was a place that a friendly christian could find people willing to talk with someone who had different worldviews it would be with friendly atheists.

]]> By: Siamang http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1130 Siamang Mon, 27 Nov 2006 19:48:45 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1130 Wow, that was powerful and wrenching. I sat here at my desk at work, welling up with tears for that man so loving and so in conflict with his old beliefs. What a wonderful journey for him. I'm sorry that it carried so much pain, but I do feel the love in his heart. For his sake, and his loving heart I hope that he's right. I want him to be right. He deserves to be right, for the love he has for everyone. Wow, that was powerful and wrenching. I sat here at my desk at work, welling up with tears for that man so loving and so in conflict with his old beliefs.

What a wonderful journey for him. I’m sorry that it carried so much pain, but I do feel the love in his heart. For his sake, and his loving heart I hope that he’s right. I want him to be right. He deserves to be right, for the love he has for everyone.

]]> By: Sean http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1121 Sean Mon, 27 Nov 2006 05:41:39 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1121 Ah This American Life, so full of insight each week. I haven't heard that one yet, will have to look it up online. Ah This American Life, so full of insight each week.
I haven’t heard that one yet, will have to look it up online.

]]> By: Michael 2e http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1119 Michael 2e Mon, 27 Nov 2006 03:00:49 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1119 <a href="http://www.2eblog.com/2006/11/25/sympathy-for-heresy/" rel="nofollow">I also heard the story and posted about it on my blog. My comments come from a Christian perspective and I believe that Pearson cannot specifically point to instances where the bible is wrong because it is the reveled word of God. Further, Person's change in direction has less to do with error in the Bible, but his decision to substitute his subjective feelings and opinions for scripture. </a> I also heard the story and posted about it on my blog. My comments come from a Christian perspective and I believe that Pearson cannot specifically point to instances where the bible is wrong because it is the reveled word of God. Further, Person’s change in direction has less to do with error in the Bible, but his decision to substitute his subjective feelings and opinions for scripture.

]]> By: FriendlyAtheist http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1118 FriendlyAtheist Mon, 27 Nov 2006 00:49:02 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/11/26/heretics/#comment-1118 Thanks for the advice, BC :) -- Hemant Thanks for the advice, BC :)

– Hemant

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