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	<title>Comments on: Faith Based Initiatives</title>
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	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
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		<title>By: Forrest Langley</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-75069</link>
		<dc:creator>Forrest Langley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:41:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>here is what tickles me they try to tell us that being gay is normal and natural. I just have a couple questions. If that is so then why cant they naturally have children. Also I can prove that it is not normal and natural to be gay. When you see or study the majority of homos for insance in a woman woman relationship or man to man relationship for the most part one plays the role of the male and the other the female. Why is that? Because God put that inside of them. That is normal and natural. to prove that heterosexuality is normal and natural when they come together they have offspring. I do wish that that Gay people would have their own nation. Because they would not be alive long. Aids would take most out. But they would not be able to procreate and they would not be on earth long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>here is what tickles me they try to tell us that being gay is normal and natural. I just have a couple questions. If that is so then why cant they naturally have children. Also I can prove that it is not normal and natural to be gay. When you see or study the majority of homos for insance in a woman woman relationship or man to man relationship for the most part one plays the role of the male and the other the female. Why is that? Because God put that inside of them. That is normal and natural. to prove that heterosexuality is normal and natural when they come together they have offspring. I do wish that that Gay people would have their own nation. Because they would not be alive long. Aids would take most out. But they would not be able to procreate and they would not be on earth long.</p>
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		<title>By: Forrest Langley</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-75066</link>
		<dc:creator>Forrest Langley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2007 17:35:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-75066</guid>
		<description>Fact of the matter is since christians are the majority of taxpayers in America they have as much right to grants as any other groups. These grants our not used to promote religion.But they are used to help the helpless. I cant understand why anyone would not want them to help. but I do understand. Atheists know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Almighy God is alive and well. And they are going to meet him at the judgment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fact of the matter is since christians are the majority of taxpayers in America they have as much right to grants as any other groups. These grants our not used to promote religion.But they are used to help the helpless. I cant understand why anyone would not want them to help. but I do understand. Atheists know beyond a shadow of a doubt that Almighy God is alive and well. And they are going to meet him at the judgment.</p>
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		<title>By: Friendly Atheist &#187; Supreme Court Case Only One Week Away</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-6474</link>
		<dc:creator>Friendly Atheist &#187; Supreme Court Case Only One Week Away</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-6474</guid>
		<description>[...] I&#8217;ve written about the Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation Supreme Court case a couple times now. The case will be presented to the high court next Wednesday, February 28. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I&#8217;ve written about the Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation Supreme Court case a couple times now. The case will be presented to the high court next Wednesday, February 28. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Friendly Atheist &#187; Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-5242</link>
		<dc:creator>Friendly Atheist &#187; Hein v. Freedom From Religion Foundation</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 06:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-5242</guid>
		<description>[...] I wrote about this lawsuit a couple months ago. And you can read more about it here. Basically, it begs the question of whether taxpayers have standing to sue the government when it supports religion in violation of the Establishment Clause (like with the Office of Faith-based Initiatives). The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) says that you should be able to sue as a taxpayer. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I wrote about this lawsuit a couple months ago. And you can read more about it here. Basically, it begs the question of whether taxpayers have standing to sue the government when it supports religion in violation of the Establishment Clause (like with the Office of Faith-based Initiatives). The Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) says that you should be able to sue as a taxpayer. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Friendly Atheist &#187; Interview with Annie Laurie Gaylor</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-2833</link>
		<dc:creator>Friendly Atheist &#187; Interview with Annie Laurie Gaylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Jan 2007 06:24:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-2833</guid>
		<description>[...] The Freedom From Religion Foundation was founded in 1978 by Annie Laurie&#8217;s mother, Anne Nicol Gaylor. FFRF has over 8,000 members and has been growing faster of late, likely due to its numerous (successful)lawsuits, including a pending case against the White House&#8217;s office of faith-based initiatives. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] The Freedom From Religion Foundation was founded in 1978 by Annie Laurie&#8217;s mother, Anne Nicol Gaylor. FFRF has over 8,000 members and has been growing faster of late, likely due to its numerous (successful)lawsuits, including a pending case against the White House&#8217;s office of faith-based initiatives. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: TXatheist</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1434</link>
		<dc:creator>TXatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Dec 2006 19:56:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1434</guid>
		<description>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html

from the article
[b]In ruling on that case, Judge Pratt noted that the born-again Christian staff was the sole judge of an inmate’s spiritual transformation. If an inmate did not join in the religious activities that were part of his “treatment,” the staff could write up disciplinary reports, generating demerits the inmate’s parole board might see. Or they could expel the inmate.

And while the program was supposedly open to all, in practice its content was “a substantial disincentive” for inmates of other faiths to join, the judge noted. Although the ministry itself does not condone hostility toward Catholics, Roman Catholic inmates heard their faith criticized by staff members and volunteers from local evangelical churches, the judge found. And Jews and Muslims in the program would have been required to participate in Christian worship services even if that deeply offended their own religious beliefs.

“The state has literally established an Evangelical Christian congregation within the walls of one of its penal institutions, giving the leaders of that congregation, i.e., InnerChange employees, authority to control the spiritual, emotional and physical lives of hundreds of Iowa inmates,” Judge Pratt wrote. “There are no adequate safeguards present, nor could there be, to ensure that state funds are not being directly spent to indoctrinate Iowa inmates.”[/b]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html</a></p>
<p>from the article<br />
[b]In ruling on that case, Judge Pratt noted that the born-again Christian staff was the sole judge of an inmate’s spiritual transformation. If an inmate did not join in the religious activities that were part of his “treatment,” the staff could write up disciplinary reports, generating demerits the inmate’s parole board might see. Or they could expel the inmate.</p>
<p>And while the program was supposedly open to all, in practice its content was “a substantial disincentive” for inmates of other faiths to join, the judge noted. Although the ministry itself does not condone hostility toward Catholics, Roman Catholic inmates heard their faith criticized by staff members and volunteers from local evangelical churches, the judge found. And Jews and Muslims in the program would have been required to participate in Christian worship services even if that deeply offended their own religious beliefs.</p>
<p>“The state has literally established an Evangelical Christian congregation within the walls of one of its penal institutions, giving the leaders of that congregation, i.e., InnerChange employees, authority to control the spiritual, emotional and physical lives of hundreds of Iowa inmates,” Judge Pratt wrote. “There are no adequate safeguards present, nor could there be, to ensure that state funds are not being directly spent to indoctrinate Iowa inmates.”[/b]</p>
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		<title>By: Nes</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1425</link>
		<dc:creator>Nes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 23:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1425</guid>
		<description>I would need a lot more info before I could agree or disagree with the FFRF in that story, Lynn. For example:
&lt;blockquote&gt;They are assisted in the program by a multi-faith team of spiritual guides...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Do they have Buddhists? Hindus? Muslims? Atheists? Lutherans, Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons? Can one from any of these groups (or any other) join the program and not be coerced into joining a different religion? What is meant by spiritual? (There are several more references to spiritual in the rest of the text.) If some one is a strict materialist, could they still join? Would this, and if so, how would this, conflict with spiritual teaching?
&lt;blockquote&gt;These mentors are versed in the components of the program and help to strengthen the principles taught in the classes.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
What are the components of the program? What are the principles that are taught? Is it taught that these principles come from a divine source or a specific religion?

I don&#039;t mean to attack the program, or the people who ran it. I have no doubt that it has helped some people, and it&#039;s a shame that those people lost that help. I strongly believe in trying to rehabilitating prisoners. But, whatever our feelings about it, if the program excludes some religions (or the lack thereof), or favors certain religions, it would be unconstitutional for it to be run with government money. No appeal to consequences can change that. If it was open to all religions (or the lack thereof), and wasn&#039;t coercive, then there wouldn&#039;t (shouldn&#039;t) be a problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would need a lot more info before I could agree or disagree with the FFRF in that story, Lynn. For example:</p>
<blockquote><p>They are assisted in the program by a multi-faith team of spiritual guides&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Do they have Buddhists? Hindus? Muslims? Atheists? Lutherans, Catholics, Southern Baptists, Mormons? Can one from any of these groups (or any other) join the program and not be coerced into joining a different religion? What is meant by spiritual? (There are several more references to spiritual in the rest of the text.) If some one is a strict materialist, could they still join? Would this, and if so, how would this, conflict with spiritual teaching?</p>
<blockquote><p>These mentors are versed in the components of the program and help to strengthen the principles taught in the classes.</p></blockquote>
<p>What are the components of the program? What are the principles that are taught? Is it taught that these principles come from a divine source or a specific religion?</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to attack the program, or the people who ran it. I have no doubt that it has helped some people, and it&#8217;s a shame that those people lost that help. I strongly believe in trying to rehabilitating prisoners. But, whatever our feelings about it, if the program excludes some religions (or the lack thereof), or favors certain religions, it would be unconstitutional for it to be run with government money. No appeal to consequences can change that. If it was open to all religions (or the lack thereof), and wasn&#8217;t coercive, then there wouldn&#8217;t (shouldn&#8217;t) be a problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Karen</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1422</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Dec 2006 18:18:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1422</guid>
		<description>I would never argue that religious groups don&#039;t do good. They do. I was involved in several great community outreach programs with my church over the years, though they were all evangelism-based as well as designed to help the poor. 

However, there are some serious problems with the faith-based initiative that are outlined today in a front-page NYTimes story. It goes through several lawsuits where courts concluded that funds were misspent. 

The fundamental problems with many of these programs are 1) they get government funding and then discriminate in hiring, which I believe is wrong and 2) they use federal funds to reward people for converting, particularly in prisons. I think that&#039;s using religion coercively, and that&#039;s what groups like FFRF and AU (Americans United for Separation of Church and State) object to strongly:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html?ei=5094&amp;en=9d0e1451cc709fc2&amp;hp=&amp;ex=1165813200&amp;partner=homepage&amp;pagewanted=print
.

&lt;blockquote&gt;December 10, 2006
Religion for a Captive Audience, Paid For by Taxes
By DIANA B. HENRIQUES and ANDREW LEHREN

Life was different in Unit E at the state prison outside Newton, Iowa.

The toilets and sinks — white porcelain ones, like at home — were in a separate bathroom with partitions for privacy. In many Iowa prisons, metal toilet-and-sink combinations squat beside the bunks, to be used without privacy, a few feet from cellmates.

The cells in Unit E had real wooden doors and doorknobs, with locks. More books and computers were available, and inmates were kept busy with classes, chores, music practice and discussions. There were occasional movies and events with live bands and real-world food, like pizza or sandwiches from Subway. Best of all, there were opportunities to see loved ones in an environment quieter and more intimate than the typical visiting rooms.

But the only way an inmate could qualify for this kinder mutation of prison life was to enter an intensely religious rehabilitation program and satisfy the evangelical Christians running it that he was making acceptable spiritual progress. The program — which grew from a project started in 1997 at a Texas prison with the support of George W. Bush, who was governor at the time — says on its Web site that it seeks “to ‘cure’ prisoners by identifying sin as the root of their problems” and showing inmates “how God can heal them permanently, if they turn from their sinful past.”

One Roman Catholic inmate, Michael A. Bauer, left the program after a year, mostly because he felt the program staff and volunteers were hostile toward his faith.

“My No. 1 reason for leaving the program was that I personally felt spiritually crushed,” he testified at a court hearing last year. “I just didn’t feel good about where I was and what was going on.”

For Robert W. Pratt, chief judge of the federal courts in the Southern District of Iowa, this all added up to an unconstitutional use of taxpayer money for religious indoctrination, as he ruled in June in a lawsuit challenging the arrangement.

The Iowa prison program is not unique. Since 2000, courts have cited more than a dozen programs for having unconstitutionally used taxpayer money to pay for religious activities or evangelism aimed at prisoners, recovering addicts, job seekers, teenagers and children.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would never argue that religious groups don&#8217;t do good. They do. I was involved in several great community outreach programs with my church over the years, though they were all evangelism-based as well as designed to help the poor. </p>
<p>However, there are some serious problems with the faith-based initiative that are outlined today in a front-page NYTimes story. It goes through several lawsuits where courts concluded that funds were misspent. </p>
<p>The fundamental problems with many of these programs are 1) they get government funding and then discriminate in hiring, which I believe is wrong and 2) they use federal funds to reward people for converting, particularly in prisons. I think that&#8217;s using religion coercively, and that&#8217;s what groups like FFRF and AU (Americans United for Separation of Church and State) object to strongly:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html?ei=5094&#038;en=9d0e1451cc709fc2&#038;hp=&#038;ex=1165813200&#038;partner=homepage&#038;pagewanted=print" rel="nofollow">http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/10/business/10faith.html?ei=5094&#038;en=9d0e1451cc709fc2&#038;hp=&#038;ex=1165813200&#038;partner=homepage&#038;pagewanted=print</a><br />
.</p>
<blockquote><p>December 10, 2006<br />
Religion for a Captive Audience, Paid For by Taxes<br />
By DIANA B. HENRIQUES and ANDREW LEHREN</p>
<p>Life was different in Unit E at the state prison outside Newton, Iowa.</p>
<p>The toilets and sinks — white porcelain ones, like at home — were in a separate bathroom with partitions for privacy. In many Iowa prisons, metal toilet-and-sink combinations squat beside the bunks, to be used without privacy, a few feet from cellmates.</p>
<p>The cells in Unit E had real wooden doors and doorknobs, with locks. More books and computers were available, and inmates were kept busy with classes, chores, music practice and discussions. There were occasional movies and events with live bands and real-world food, like pizza or sandwiches from Subway. Best of all, there were opportunities to see loved ones in an environment quieter and more intimate than the typical visiting rooms.</p>
<p>But the only way an inmate could qualify for this kinder mutation of prison life was to enter an intensely religious rehabilitation program and satisfy the evangelical Christians running it that he was making acceptable spiritual progress. The program — which grew from a project started in 1997 at a Texas prison with the support of George W. Bush, who was governor at the time — says on its Web site that it seeks “to ‘cure’ prisoners by identifying sin as the root of their problems” and showing inmates “how God can heal them permanently, if they turn from their sinful past.”</p>
<p>One Roman Catholic inmate, Michael A. Bauer, left the program after a year, mostly because he felt the program staff and volunteers were hostile toward his faith.</p>
<p>“My No. 1 reason for leaving the program was that I personally felt spiritually crushed,” he testified at a court hearing last year. “I just didn’t feel good about where I was and what was going on.”</p>
<p>For Robert W. Pratt, chief judge of the federal courts in the Southern District of Iowa, this all added up to an unconstitutional use of taxpayer money for religious indoctrination, as he ruled in June in a lawsuit challenging the arrangement.</p>
<p>The Iowa prison program is not unique. Since 2000, courts have cited more than a dozen programs for having unconstitutionally used taxpayer money to pay for religious activities or evangelism aimed at prisoners, recovering addicts, job seekers, teenagers and children.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: txatheist</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1413</link>
		<dc:creator>txatheist</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 18:11:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1413</guid>
		<description>Are you an employee of the church?  Employees pay, the church doesn&#039;t report income.  I do agree many people make sacrifices to be ministers.   However, I bet Julie can confirm it&#039;s a lot more lucrative in Texas and all you gotta do is become Southern Baptist :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Are you an employee of the church?  Employees pay, the church doesn&#8217;t report income.  I do agree many people make sacrifices to be ministers.   However, I bet Julie can confirm it&#8217;s a lot more lucrative in Texas and all you gotta do is become Southern Baptist <img src='http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Mike C</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1408</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike C</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Dec 2006 06:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2006/12/05/faith-based-initiatives/#comment-1408</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Ask your minister for his tax returns.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I am a minister and I pay income taxes. Or, I would if I earned enough to even make it into the lowest paying tax bracket. As it is, my church income places me well below the poverty line for a family of three. But I do still file tax returns, and I&#039;d be happy to show them to anyone who is interested. Same with our church financial statements.

Trust me, very few people are getting rich in church ministry. Very few. Most of us are making huge financial and life sacrifices because of our love for God and love for people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Ask your minister for his tax returns.</p></blockquote>
<p>I am a minister and I pay income taxes. Or, I would if I earned enough to even make it into the lowest paying tax bracket. As it is, my church income places me well below the poverty line for a family of three. But I do still file tax returns, and I&#8217;d be happy to show them to anyone who is interested. Same with our church financial statements.</p>
<p>Trust me, very few people are getting rich in church ministry. Very few. Most of us are making huge financial and life sacrifices because of our love for God and love for people.</p>
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