Gideon Bibles and Atheists

I think the answer would be to ask yourself: “If I left atheist literature here in the hotel room for the benefit of others, what would I want a Christian who came across it to do with it?”

Whatever you decide you’d want them to do to your stuff, do that.

(BTW, no it’s not stealing to take a Gideons Bible. That’s what they hope you’ll do with them. )

I used to sign Jesus’ name in the front like it was an autograph.

To my #1 fan, john, JC

I figured there’s be at least one John who’d see it.

ROFL! I don’t find this a stupid conversation. I think it’s halarious. Usually, I don’t pay any attention to it. I’ve even forgotten they have them in hotel rooms, even though I’ve stayed in them before and recently too. I really don’t seem to notice them anymore. It just sits there- unmoved, untouched, and unnoticed which could be very insulting if they really expected you to read it. However, I don’t really treat it any differently in my own life. I’ve been given many a Bible, have about 6 different versions collecting dust basically on the bookcase. The Humanist Manifesto gets far more attention. Humm… Ya think I should leave a copy of the Humanist Manifesto next time I stay at a motel? Paul Kurtz might love such an idea. lol

Marriot hotels always have a copy of the Book of Mormon with the Gideon because the founder was a Mormon.

I’ve never actually done anything with it, but the next time I go to a hotel I think I will write a “This book is a work of fiction” disclaimer on the inside cover.

Either that, or I will buy an extra copy of The God Delusion beforehand and put it in the drawer along with the Bible.

Or both. Or maybe I’ll just leave some printouts from an atheist website, since that’s cheaper.

Don’t forget the Gideon Exposed! stickers. Gideon, the biblical figure that the society is named after, killed, tortured, and plundered thousands of people.

I’m not sure throwing them out would help, there seems to be an endless supply. Stealing them is OK, as is “defacing” them with intelligent or humorous remarks.

I am always insulted that people would think that I would want to read it, and either take it to read (quite useful, whenever I want to research something from it I have various copies with different themes highlights, or a new one to start in) or, if I feel particularly insulted, highlight parts such as the nonsense in Leviticus and leave the corners folded and sticking out to attract attention.

My Blog: In Defence of Reason

Dammit, that of course should have read “fight religious interference… etc.”

Stealing it, trashing it, defacing it, highlighting dumb parts of it, putting stickers on it or contradictory literature next to it, feeling insulted by its presence…

These all sound like you guys are giving it power over you that it doesn’t deserve.

That’s kind of the impression I got too. Kind of makes me wonder whether the next step is book burning.

Why do people in our society (from whatever perspective) have such a hard time letting differing ideas simply coexist? Why are tolerance and pluralism so anathema to both liberals and conservatives, Christians and non-religious? Why do we feel so threatened by mere words on a page?

And again, I wonder, would you want Christians to treat your books this way? If there was a story about Christians publicly defacing and mocking atheist literature, would you all just be okay with that? Or would you be railing against those ignorant and intolerant fundamentalists?

Richard,

Let me start by saying that I have never done anything with the bible placed in a hotel room.

I didn’t say a sticker would sway somebody to my point of view, I said it might make them question bible or think about why other don’t believe in it. If anyone is convinced by a simple sticker then they are a goober of epic proportions and I don’t care if they agree with me or not. Why do you think the sticker on the bible would only be aimed at christians staying in that room?

You analogy to your personal car is flawed, because the bible in the hotel room is not personal property. If I’d talked about breaking into their chruch or house and put the sticker on their bible that would be different.

What is this “cause” you speak of? Why assume the “sticker commandos” aren’t doing more for your cause? Methinks you take the a simple action of self expression to personally.

Very interesting discussion! I would love to see the look of horror on a fundy’s face who opens the drawer and finds Origin of the Species sitting there next to Gideon.

Richard said:

So…. it’s also aimed at forlorn atheists who think they’re all alone in their disbelief, and this will encourage them? Am I overlooking any other possible targets?

Actually I think it is part of the reason the book is there. Of course aside from the obvious…for christians that do not have theirs with them.

I do agree that defacing it would be self defeating. Would there be any objections to a short note or letter to be inserted inside it? That note or letter can be easily discarded.

Its a book. So I think I’ld open it, read a couple of verses, put it back for someone else to have a look at.

Who knows, maybe I’ld stumble across the good samaritan story. I love that one.

I don’t think I’ld leave a copy of anything, Darwin or whatever, that would cost me a bit of money and I’m skint.

I don’t think that I’ld leave a note and so on either.

I pretty sure I wouldn’t deface it. Why deface a book?

I like Mike C’s approach right at the top.

despite a seemingly endless supply, each gideon bible does cost something to produce, therefore each one taken, stolen, destroyed, etc. takes money out of their pockets.

back in the days when calling an 800 number cost the owner a fairly high price, i used to call the 700 club about 20x a day. they’d answer, i’d string them along with nonsense for a minute or two and hang up. ching! another charge to pat’s account.

if we all did that sort of thing, we might make a little pinch in their pocket.

I think we should leave copies of the Kama Sutra or something similar.

If enough organizations start leaving their literature in hotels, maybe hotels will ban the practice altogether.

Why worry so much about, or argue against something that you say doesn’t exist. By saying and doing all you mention in your blog, you are admitting and exposing the doubt and emptiness in your own life.

Why worry so much about, or argue against something that you say doesn’t exist.

Nah… I’m pretty sure Christians exist. It’s them I worry about and/or argue against.

But believe it or not, I’m mostly here to make friends and understand people better. Tell us about yourself, friend!

I have read it. Several different times in fact. Maybe you should try reading it with an open mind. What are you afraid of, maybe disbelieving it? It is a powerful book of fiction.

GOD DOESN’T BELIEVE IN ATHEISTS!

Shalom Richard, Thanks for your thoughts. God knows it is impossible to truely be an atheist. He has made himself known to all mankind. He has set eternity in every mans heart. We are all without excuse for denying Him. What can be known of God is evident in all He has created. He won’t force anyone to beleive in, rely and trust in Him. It’s up to each individual.
The Truth is available to all who sincerely want it. Why not ask Him personally to make Himself real to you.
God Bless you in your search for the truth.
Larry

“… an atheist does not believe that God exists. If that is so then you guys must know everything there is to know about everything in the universe.”

Well, not only that has absolutely no logical coherence, i.e. you have a huge leap in your deduction there, but you imply that if you do believe in god, then you do know everything there is to know about the universe.

God is a rather poor explanation of the universe, as it just introduces a level of indirection, that does not answer the original question. It just defers it to “Who/what created God?”.

Thanos

(@ Thanos) No, my friend, I did not say that. What I said was that nobody can know everything there is to know…BUT there are some things I know that you don’t know because you haven’t discovered them yet, and there are some things you know that I haven’t discovered yet. To make a claim that something does not and/or cannot exist implies universal knowledge. Nobody can make that claim.

(@ Mriana) I don’t see any attack in what I said. Does a counter-argument pose such a threat to you? Yes, I know what many Muslims believe about non-Muslims, but I don’t understand what you’re getting at in bringing that up (unless it’s in response to an earlier post that I haven’t bothered looking back at.)

Interesting to note how much atheists are interested in the Bible and less of other religions? Why is that? It’s almost as though one wishes to prove it wrong, why? Just say that you don’t beleive in anything, no God, no after life. That’s cool and o.k.!

If atheists believe in nothing, it’s a belief onto its own, just like Christianity is a beleif onto its own. I see a lot on Darwin and evolution here. That still remains a theory too; therefore a belief system – and faith that this happened and is true. Otherwise – prove it. And then that would be agnostic, one doesn’t beleive because it cannot be proven. Hmmmm, interesting.

If we came from monkey’s, why do we still have monkeys?

Jesus is love and even if you do choose to beleive in nothing, that is your own personal choice. You believe in what you ever you wish to believe in. No one should ever force or coherce you. One thing is for sure, we must all die and if there’s a God, what then? Continue to seek the truth in your own way to discover why you are here and what happens when your time is up – and it will come. Death and taxes are inevitable.. God Bless you all. – Axel.

Hi Axel, and welcome.
I’ll be happy to respond to your questions and statements and I’ll assume that you are here to better understand others and to be better understood by others. I won’t be arguing with you or your beliefs, nor will I be insulting or condescending. I will expect the same respect and openhandedness from you. I’m not interested in “converting” you to my way of seeing things, nor am I interested in you doing that to me. That’s not what this place is for.

Please read Siamang’s response to you with an open mind and open heart. Don’t worry about being open; those beliefs that are important to you will not be in jeopardy. The only thing that might change is your attitude toward people who are different from you. Since the airing of the “debate” between Cameron/Carson and Sapient/Kelly this site has been visited by many people who seem to be spoiling for a fight, looking for a victory, hoping to score a conversion, or other kinds of motives that I consider aggression. Siamang has been making a heroic effort to respond to many, many of these often very negative commentors by offering positive and intelligent dialogue in return. A few of the new visitors are responding in kind, and many are not. What Siamang is doing is out of his loving and sincere heart. But I think he’s getting exhausted, so talk to me too. I’ll speak only for myself, but I do share many views with several others who frequent this excellent site.

In order to have better understanding the first thing to do is to stop making statements about people who are different from you, and start asking questions instead. If you want to make statements, make them about yourself, and we’ll ask questions of you to understand you better.

You made a few statements about atheists that show some common misconceptions, and if you were to frame them in the form of a question (I sound like Alec on Jeopardy) then I and others here will be happy to give you respectful and honest answers to clear up those misconceptions. Although your comment above is brief it’s packed with questions and information. Several things you say indicate you have a strong live-and-let-live attitude. I share that trait and I thank you for that. Rather than me addressing some of the things you brought up, perhaps you could take just one at a time to ask us about. I would very much like to learn together.

Interesting to note how much atheists are interested in the Bible and less of other religions? Why is that? It’s almost as though one wishes to prove it wrong, why? Just say that you don’t beleive in anything, no God, no after life.

Axel, is that what you thing? Check out: the current issue of Free Inquiry You cna read a few articles there and granted most are about Christianity, but CSER (pronounced Ceasar and stands for Committee for the Scientific Examination of Religion.

If you have time, take a look around CFI, AHA, and Council for Secular Humanism. You’ll find a lot on religion, including Islam and alike.

So take a walk on the wild side and break a stereotype.

However the funniest incident was in a hotel adjacent to Schipol (Amsterdam) Airport when I opened the room Bible to have a bit of a read only to have it fall open on a page containing a small slab of hash/marijuana! Praise the Lord!

LOL! Well, they say the Lord will provide … I guess he did!

Be open minded… Read the bible! (Try the gospel of John, for example).

If you don’t want to read it – then don’t. Leave it alone for someone else to read instead. Many people have benefitted from reading it in the past. For example, some people have decided not to commit suicide because they found comfort in the bible. (Would you take a life-jacket away from a drowning man?) Don’t be petty.

The central theme of the bible is that God loves you and wants you to have a special relationship with Him. After all, that’s why He created you.

But there’s a problem… Humanity is essentially flawed. (Surely that’s apparent to everyone who reads the news?). This flaw is our fault – as a result of a spiritual “Fall”. In essence, God gave humanity free will – and sometimes humanity chooses to do evil over good.

The bible shows the flawed aspect of humanity – and its cure. (See John 3:16 – especially if you don’t already know the most often quoted verse in the bible).

Again I encourage you to keep an open mind. I have read The God Delusion and other atheistic literature. Can you say the same of The Bible?

Andy

(Science teacher)

in response to axel’s statement, “If we came from monkeys, why do we still have monkeys?”

i will come right out and say it; i am a christian. i love god. And, i am happy and welcome that we as adults can have a dialogue like this, but please, if you want to make counterpoints, make them educated. uneducated remarks by anyone in any religion or non-belief system give that group a bad reputation.

and to clarify what evolution is…

evolution does not say we came from monkeys, it says we come from the same distant ancestors. it makes complete sense that they are still around. our line split with monkeys & apes sometime between 6 to 8 million years ago.

take your third or fourth cousins, they aren’t really related to you any longer, but they still come from some where in your family and still happen to exist.

the chain from australopithecus (our earliest human ancestors) to modern day homo sapiens can be quite interesting. you should pick up a book on anthropology or even archeology. you may like it. you never know.

it is ok to believe in god and believe in evolution at the same time. that doesnt make me a hypocrite either. and, it is ok to have different beliefs. we dont have to beat eachother up for being different. we should all be more respectfull of eachothers thoughts, which can only result in less personal angst, if nothing else. and a lot less useless wars… think of all the people getting slaughtered right now, today, who get killed because they believe something different.

Why do you think it is said, “God does not believe in Atheists?”
Then I would like someone to review this;
Consider Law of Math, does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? does it have matter or is it abstract, show me number 2 or 45,000; does 1+ 1 always =2? Can you prove people wrong with math? Say you gave a teller a $100 bill and she gave you 2 $5.00 bills back, can you prove her wrong with Math?

Consider Law of Science, does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? does it have matter or is it abstract? can gravity be proven?
Einstein’s E = Mc 2(square). Repeated observations and expressed in math equations, can support theories, formulated hypothesis, proven over and over. Let me see it physically.

Consider Law of Logic, does it exist or not exist? does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? does it have matter? How do you make decisions everyday? How do you know which side of the road to driveon? How do you know that you can drink water from a bottle marked water, and it not be poison?

Consider Law of Absolute Morality, does it exist or not exist? does it change? or not change? is it material or nonmaterial? When it is broken what happens? What if we all decided that anything goes, not far from wrong, Rape of children is acceptable, is it wrong? If a man takes your wife beats her and rapes, leaves her for dead, it is wrong? How do you know? Is it ok to lie, deceive, why be mad or upset at someone who lies if it is ok? What is your belief? Let me see it physically. How do you know what is the correct behavior you follow, and it doesn’t have to be opionion, but what you will not accept, why won’t you accept it? What if your neighbor thinks comes over and kills your family, he thinks it is ok, why don’t you? Show me physicall ly your morals.

Rationality is the key isn’t it? Universal huh? If not, then your argument is futile, inconsistent with the Laws that govern humanity. If you think otherwise you must be a psychopath and need a psychiatrist, because otherwise is irrational thought.
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God had made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Romans 1:18-21.

Also Circular Reasoning. Person basing fact from the Bible. Example; How do you find the President of the United States, can you reasonable say you can find him in the white house? Is this proof? Let’s look in the white house…

You can contact me with replies because I really do want them to me: qbee_75@hotmail.com

Hmmm….

To the atheist, you are simply denying the truth. The truth surrounds us everyday and we choose to believe it or not. Example, I can’t look at the human eye and all its wonders and deny a Creator anymore than I can deny that this chair that I am sitting on was designed and built by someone. Design points to a designer, everybody knows that. No matter what we think of the truth, it’s still the truth. God has written His law in your heart and you would be foolish to turn away from His truth. You (like me) need forgiveness and to be filled. Because I felt empty so long ago. So empty. There was a hole there that I tried to fill with everything you can think of including but not limited to homosexuality, alcohol, and being a good kid. But, God tore my heart with His Word and I can’t deny His truth. I need Him!
Wow, that got far away from where I wanted to go.

N-e-ways, it all boils down to faith. We each have faith in what we believe in. But the question is, what about truth? Is my faith in the truth? Or is my faith in a lie? One of us is denying the truth. I just made a t-shirt for me and my roommate today (iron-on letters). This is what it says, “I’m forgiven…that’s all I know.” And when it comes down to it, all I know is that I’m forgiven. I am no longer under the penalty of God’s law. I am free and I feel free. I try to prove something in this life, and find that I can’t prove anything in this life except that I am forgiven.

Chady : )

I recently discovered I have a Gideon Bible at my own house. The Bible is supposedly from Canada and I am from the Philippines. I don’t know how it ended here. I never paid much attention to the other older Bibles lying around during my teen years while I was schooled in a Catholic school. I never had the gusto to read the Bible, frankly because I was actually so sick of the doctrines being 12 years in a Catholic school.

Sometime around college, I recently had the urge to read this Gideon Bible I found. I regularly read a few chapters everyday or night, and I have to admit, I think its a wonderful book. Yeah there is bloodshed in it, tons and tons of battles, but I think every story has that. To think that the Bible isn’t just a manual – as I thought it would be (at first) because school never gave us the ‘stimulae’ to read it – Well its a story, quite practical and spiritual at the same time. I admit I have never had a clue there was so much love in it too. Thinking that most people I know link more violence and fear to it than love. When its definitely not the case. Overall, I think people should give it a chance. I dunno, I did, I feel better. I think its an impression that religion might have made more damage than good? But I can honestly say, I really didn’t find it in this book. I think its people who use the notion of God we should definitely watch out for and not the other way around. Later…

I was doing a Google search on the Gideons and found this link. I’ve taken time to read every post and have been intrigued by some of the comments made.

I empathize with those here who feel misunderstood about who they are and what they believe. I have felt frustrated more times that I can count with people who say that they are Christians and then open their mouths and give those who are really trying to be “Christ-like” a bad name. They come across in a very condemning tone (if that’s you, please read John 3:17 again). That’s not what Christianity is about, condemning others.

Richard Wade said “… If you want to make statements, make them about yourself, and we’ll ask questions of you to understand you better.”

My name is Teresa, and I am a Christian– and when I say that, I mean that I try to live my life like Christ did. His message was simple— love God and love your neighbor as yourself. If we do that we’ll treat everyone with honor and respect.

I believe that God exists and that he loves all humanity; I also believe that God hates sin (evil—murder, hate, rape, lying, stealing, adultery, etc.) because of the horrendous affects it has on the lives of those who are exposed to it. So do I.

Siamang said, “We’ve heard all your preaching before. Many of us here are ex-believers, ex-evangelicals… many of us perhaps weren’t all that different than you are know, and probably said the exact same things to other people not too long ago. You ask why so many of us are interested in the Bible, it could be because a lot of us are ex-Christians. Some people I know were Christians until they read the whole bible, and that made them become atheists.”

I don’t understand this statement. Would you elaborate on why reading the whole Bible made you become atheist? And, when someone says “I’m an atheist,” what are they saying? What do atheist’ believe?

Mriana said, I restate my question to all Christians; do you know that Muslims believe that all Christians and other non-Muslims are going to hell? If they are right and IF there is a hell, we’ll all be seeing each other in hell. Think about it.

Yes, that’s part of their belief system, the Muslims believe that anyone who doesn’t follow their religion will go to hell. I personally believe that there is a hell, and that it was created for the devil (the source of all evil) and the angelic beings who chose to follow him—not for people. But, there are people who choose to be evil too; and those are the ones I believe will go to hell. (Evil: that which causes harm, ruin, injury, pain, misfortune, or destruction; morally bad.)

Interesting to note, the Bible describes hell as a ‘lake of fire.’ I believe it to be in existence already and that we see it overflowing at times… Have you ever seen lava that spews from an erupting volcano. It is extremely hot, reaching temperatures as high as 1,300 to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The Crater of Volcano Kilauea in the Hawaiian Islands is literally called a ‘lake of fire.’ The Bancroft Library at the University of California in Berkeley has a picture of it available. Glimpses of Our National Parks Website says of the Hawaiian islands, “they possess the fourth largest volcanic crater in the world, the largest active volcano, and a lake of turbulent sulphurous fire…” In 1989 geologists from the Open University in Milton Keynes, UK, reported the sighting of entire lakes of liquid sulphur around a volcano in Costa Rica.

Question to think about. Would God (if you believe that He exists) be unkind and unloving if He punished people for being evil? We know they exist. Our world is full of lawless people, people who are immoral, who impose themselves on society. If He did have a place where these would ultimately be punished for the way they lived—does that make Him unkind or uncaring? Or would it make Him just the opposite.. one who really cares how others are treated?

Hi Teresa,
First of all, welcome! This is kind of an old thread, and so you may or may not get a lot of responses to it… but Richard alerted me to it. I’d reiterate what Richard said. I wanted to respond to a couple of questions you had…

You asked:

I don’t understand this statement. Would you elaborate on why reading the whole Bible made you become atheist? And, when someone says “I’m an atheist,” what are they saying? What do atheist’ believe?

Well, it wasn’t me who read the entire bible, but I have heard atheists who were Christians who walked away from Christianity after reading the entire bible. Julia Sweeney is one, and she has a wonderful, witty, warm, humorous and what I would call “spiritual” one-woman show about that process called “Letting Go of God.” (Check that link for some audio clips or to buy the CD.)

If you want to know my story about how I came to believe different from how I was raised, it’s here.

When I say “I am an atheist” what I’m saying is that I think the world is best understood as a natural process, not a supernatural one. I am also saying that I don’t know if there is a god, is not a god, are gods, are not gods or none of the above/all of the above. However, I pretty strongly suspect that the religions we have on this planet at the beginning of the 21st Century are so far off of what we may find as the “root and base truth of the universe” that I’m better off honestly acknowleging my ignorance rather than naming and making rather large and frighteningly specific claims about things we puny humans know nothing about. For me, the beginning of wisdom is the phrase “I do not know” and the beginning of knowlege is “let’s test the evidence.”

But as Richard says, we’re all different. Best to ask each person individually what they believe.

Interesting to note, the Bible describes hell as a ‘lake of fire.’ I believe it to be in existence already and that we see it overflowing at times… Have you ever seen lava that spews from an erupting volcano. It is extremely hot, reaching temperatures as high as 1,300 to 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit.

Are you actually saying that volcanoes are really from Hell, and that Hell is physically in the center of the earth? And that these statistics about volcanoes are material support for the supernatural belief of a spiritual afterlife in torment?

If so, please try to see it from my point of view… It just looks to me as if the line between fantasy and reality is not very clear to you. Do you also believe that lasers are the swords of angels, and meteorites are the tears of the devil?

It just sounds like you have an overactive imagination, as do all pronouncements of an awaiting hell by believers.

I do not believe that hell exists. And descriptions of it being a literal place below the earth’s tectonic plates (I’ll admit, that’s a new one for me) make it all the less likely that I believe in it. The more and more fantastic the claims of the supernaturalists in the world, the wider the gulf between their claims and their evidence.

But I’ll continue to be a good, kind, loving and thoughtful person regardless. I do good for goodness’ sake, and leave the fears of an awaiting hell to the believers in such things.

Anyway, welcome, and I hope my blunt answer about hell hasn’t put you too far off.

Pick Richard Wade’s brain about volcanoes if you get a chance, he’s a volcano expert.

Take care, and welcome!

I read the whole Bible more than once. Not only was is boring, it was horrid! Then I read other mythology and saw a lot of similarities and began researching it and trying to find out why they are so similar. If Christians only knew or if those who do know would accept the facts, they might realize it’s all just a bunch of stories. Dreadful stories at that, but I won’t go into all the details because it would take several books all the size of Acharya’s or longer with many more resources than she has.

BTW, 99% of these stories I didn’t read to my sons, but my sons both read the whole Bible and thought it was horrid too. The older one calls himself a Buddhist and the younger considers himself nothing, yet I raised them in the Episcopal Church. Then of course most Episcopal Churches consider them stories too.

Heatherross, “This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4). You mean that Jesus was a failure? He would have to be if all weren’t saved. Either that or Paul was wrong. Do you really want to go there?

Do atheists in general get this feeling when they see a Bible? If so, why? What about the Bible makes it different from other religious books to you?

You’d have to ask individuals. For me, I don’t get any particular feeling with any religious book. I do think that hotels, if they want to provide religious texts to their guests, should provide many different ones, not just the one that has traditionally been the majority religion in America.

Right now with just the Bible, it’s kind of pushy. America is a place of diverse beliefs.

Howbout for a laff, I put a bunch of room-service menus in the pew-backs at a church!

Do all atheists believe the Bible is a work of fiction?

You’d have to ask all atheists, everyone is different.

I personally think the Bible is a collection of many different texts from different sources, each with different goals. It includes myths, embellishments, laws, lineages, cultural memory, some history and a lot of poetry. Also some horiffic brutality that hopefully is merely legend as well.

Surely, historical evidence can’t be discounted. Archaeological evidence demonstrates the historical and cultural accuracy of the Bible.

Wow, you speak as though the Bible is one document. It is certainly not. Some parts are more accurate than others.

We do have archeological evidence that some of the places mentioned in some of the books and passages of the Bible existed. But unless I am mistaken, we do not have archeological evidence that a sky spirit was involved in any of it.

What would such archeological evidence even look like? Is it at all remarkable that the authors of the Bible wound their myths around real places and historical figures they were aware of?

Mt. Olympus is a real mountain, but its existence is not evidence of Zeus.

Archaeological findings demonstrate that the Biblical prophets accurately predicted events hundreds of years before they occurred—something that lies beyond the capability of mere men.

Keep a bunch of prophecies around for a couple thousand years and some of them are bound to come true if you’re nice and vague about the details. But these claims are unremarkable. When the details are specific, such as the destruction of Tyre by Nebuchadrezzar, they haven’t come true. Since some of the predictions in the Bible actually failed… should we therefore discount the Bible as being entirely false?

Or is it much more prudent to accept that the Bible is a collection of works, and instead examine each claim therein by the evidence available instead of declaring it an all-or-nothing all-true/all-false?

It’s refreshing to be able to dialogue with others who have different beliefs without sensing an argumentative spirit (for the most part anyway).

We try. Thanks for noticing!

Good to talk to you as well.

Do all atheists believe the Bible is a work of fiction?

I do, at least, and as for the history of it, it’s no more true than John Jakes North and South books. They do have history in them, but they are nothing more than works of fiction.

Why do I think this? Well that would probably take me writing a book to explain it.

BTW, Teresa, I think I should clear something up a little bit. I call myself a Humanist, Freethinker, and non-theist. I can appreciate Bishop John Shelby Spong’s (“Why Christianity Must Change or Die”, “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism”, and “Sins of Scripture”) ideas and others like him (Don Cupitt and Anthony Freeman for example). I share some of the Sea of Faith’s ideas, but I share a lot more of Robert Price’s ideas (author of “The Reason Driven Life”). If that give you any ideas of what I believe.

Personally a good book of sudoku and crossword puzzles would be my recommendation.

Or Star Trek books and mags!

How did I know you were going to say that??!?

“…The more and more fantastic the claims of the supernaturalists in the world, the wider the gulf between their claims and their evidence.”

I do believe in the supernatural—something ‘not natural.’ So I guess I fit into the category you put me in— one of the ‘supernaturalists.’

I am imaginative, but not to the point of being over actively so. My faith comes not only from my belief in the Bible, but on testimony of fact and actual experience— All of my ‘claims’ of the supernatural are documented fact— these have not been made up for your amusement nor for mere conversation.

Documented in 1987— My dad was diagnosed with bladder cancer, two doctors came into his hospital room, one of them sat down on the side of his bed and told him that at the most he had 12 months to live— given the staging (high-stage) of the cancer.

We brought my dad home from the hospital; our family began to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, asking for the cancer to be removed from his body. Days later my dad had to go back to have other tests done; and when he went for those tests the doctors could not find the cancer, not in his bladder, nor anywhere else in his body. Their actual words to us were, “We know the cancer was there, and now it’s gone. We can’t explain it; we just know that it was there, and now it’s not.” Dad passed away in 2006—you do the math. And, I do not say that in a factious way.

Documented in 2003—My nephew became extremely ill with flu and sinusitis type symptoms, he was admitted to our small town hospital where they kept him for 9 days and then discharged him (why they kept him for 9 days and was unable to diagnose his illness is still a mystery to us). The same evening (of his discharge) he got significantly worse; he was having extreme difficulty breathing. We took him to the emergency room of a larger hospital in a city not far from where we live. I was with him that Saturday morning at 3:30 AM when the Otolaryngologist came into his room with his little black bag in hand. He tried to insert an endoscope up my nephew’s nose but couldn’t— something was obstructing the opening of his nasal cavity. He ordered an x-ray to be done at once. I was sitting by my nephew’s bedside when he came back into the room after getting the results of it. He held up his hand and said, “You have a tumor this big,” holding his open cupped hand toward his own face indicating the size of something so large that it all but obscured his face from our view, “in your nasal and sinus cavities.” He was admitted to the hospital and scheduled for a biopsy the next morning. The Otolaryngologist had the Chief Pathologist to assist him with the biopsy because of the magnitude of the tumor. When the results came back he was diagnosed with Stage 4 Nasopharyngeal Lymphoma.

When my dad and mom, and my sister (my nephew’s mom) stood in the hallway on that Sunday morning—just outside of the operating room where they did the biopsy, and the doctor came out and told them it didn’t look good, again, they began to pray—as did the rest of our family when we were told what the doctors had said. We also asked many of our friends who are believers to join their faith with ours in prayer for his healing.

My nephew’s case was even more documented than usual because in their testing they also found the Epstein-Barr virus present in his body. Recent research findings linked Epstein-Barr as a cause of nasopharyngeal cancer and they wanted to include his case in research study—they ask my nephew if he would be willing to talk to a panel of doctors and medical students about the onset of his illness, his symptoms, etc. etc. He agreed, albeit he was very sick and barely able to sit up. So on Monday morning, they rolled a very sick young man in a wheel chair onto a stage in a large auditorium (it is also a teaching hospital)— Oncologists, Otolaryngologists, Doctors for research, and medical students all sat in attendance. They questioned him for several hours about his illness—all feverishly taking notes.

However, by late that evening my nephew started to show signs of improvement; his appetite was returning (he began asking us to get him food), he began to breathe easier—although he had had no treatment other than pain medication and IV fluids. The next morning (Tuesday), one of the nurses came in and said the oncologist had ordered another biopsy, somehow the tissue they had removed from the tumor during the original biopsy was not correctly stored after the initial testing, and became unusable for more testing. She said that they had not yet determined what type of lymphoma he had and that they needed to know the type so they would know what kind of chemotherapy to start him on.

When the results of the second biopsy came back—there was no cancer. There were no cancer cells in the tumor, no lymphoma cells. The tumor was still there, but it was no longer cancerous.

Several weeks after his discharge from the hospital my nephew underwent further outpatient testing on the tumor. I was there for his final follow up visit at the oncologist office when his doctor walked into the examining room with his head shaking back and forth. He started to speak and stopped, shook his head again and then he said, “I cannot explain it, all I know is that it was there, and now it isn’t.” These were familiar words to me—I had heard them before from my dad’s doctors. He went on to tell us that the latest tests showed that the tumor had shrunk significantly—as a matter of fact it was almost gone, and he had no explanation as to how or why it had shrunk. He made one final comment to my nephew before we left that day. He said, “You had better be glad somebody up there (pointing toward the heavens) is looking out for you.” The oncologist was not a ‘believer,’ but he said he knew ‘a higher power’ had to have intervened for my nephew.

Today the tumor is completely gone—no treatment of any sort, just prayer. There remains a big ? on his medical records to this day. I didn’t tell you in the beginning—but the Otolaryngologist was a believer. He later shared with my nephew in one of his visits that he had gone home on that Saturday morning after seeing my nephew in the emergency room and told his young daughter (who was about the same age as my nephew) that he was going to have to go to the hospital the next day and tell this young man and his family that he was probably was not going to live. They bowed their heads together in their home, the doctor and his daughter, and prayed in the name of Jesus, that the young man would be healed.

Documented in 2002—I was having severe pain and went to my gynecologist (thinking it to be a female problem) to find out what was wrong with me. He ordered a sonogram, it showed massive amounts of cysts on my ovaries; my doctor said he would need to do a hysterectomy.

My family prayed for me— I let the doctors operate, but when the doctors opened me up—they found healthy ovaries with absolutely no cysts. I’ve not had pain since, and I still have healthy ovaries.

Documented in 1967—A young boy that my parents knew had stepped on a pile of broken glass while playing out in his yard, nearly cutting his heal off. He had surgery and the doctors had to insert metal pins to keep his heal connected to his foot so that it could heal properly; the boy was in a tremendous amount of pain. The boy had heard my dad share about miracles he had seen, and how that faith in Jesus Christ had healed others when we prayed. He asked his dad to take him to see my dad. When they arrived, he asked my dad to pray that Jesus would heal his foot. My dad prayed.

The young boy and the dad got in their car and rode home. The man called my dad and told him what happened when they got there. He said when they got out of the car he could hear a noise when the boy walked, it sounded like something clinking together. When the young boy and his dad got inside the house the dad had the boy sit down on the couch and take off his shoes and socks. Inside the boy’s socks were the metal pins lying loose, and the scar on his foot from the surgery was a faint white line. The doctor who operated on the boy, his parents, their neighbors, their friends, and my family were all witnesses to what had happened to the young boy.

These are not made up stories; these are actual witnessed accounts of ‘supernatural’ events in the lives of ordinary human beings.

I could go on and on… but for the sake of your time to read, and my time to write.. I’ll refrain.

I am a believer in the supernatural— ‘NOT NATURAL’events.

Do these miracles prove the existence of a ‘sky spirit’ as Siamang puts it?
For me—they do. The Bible teaches that such ‘supernatural’ power is given to believers through faith in Jesus Christ. I, and others I’ve mentioned asserted our faith in Jesus Christ for healing in the very real situations I’ve shared above, and miraculous healing was the result.

Have my claims widened the gulf even more? I hope not, but if so— Anyway, thanks for letting me share some experiences in my life.

Siamang—I loved your idea about putting the room service menu’s in the pews.. Some church folk don’t hear what’s being said anyway because of having their minds on what’s for lunch. At least they’d have something to keep them occupied until others finish what they came for. I personally am riveted the whole time we as believers come together for worship—lunch is the last thing on my mind.

Evidence in its broadest sense, refers to anything that is used to determine or demonstrate the truth of an assertion. I shared all of that to assert my belief in the supernatural; you certainly can take it or leave it—I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. Your questioning it however, does not negate it either.

Anyway… Raymond, are there any good restaurants near Lake Tahoe?

It may just be that your family won the remission lotto. There’s bound to be a few people in the millions and millions of Americans who are statistical outliers.

Those folks who did pray and didn’t find healing, or died, do not report on their lack of miracles. So there’s a reporting bias.

If praying to Jesus Christ is the answer, we should see a statistical effect that has Christianity corrolating with increased remission rates. We don’t. In fact, Japanese cancer rates are lower than ours, and they’re almost 100% Buddhist. Scandinavian countries have much higher life-expectancies than folks in the American Bible Belt, and they’re predominently atheist.

So again, you can see why I’m extremely skeptical about scientific and medical claims by believers… the numbers just don’t add up.

If you really want to have a lower cancer rate, become a Buddhist. If you want to live longer than a Christian, become an atheist.

I know those aren’t logical conclusions, but they are the conclusions that your reasoning lines up to when you look at the actual statistical facts.

Olvizi, I don’t deny anyone their own beliefs or their own reasoning and experience.

Then any reasonable person would conclude my comment didn’t refer to you. I’ll get to your blog sometime, Siamang.

As to my poisoning the well here, now that’s rich. Look at Claire’s baseless and dismissive comment before I said anything to Teresa.

All I said is that people should be entitled to their personal experience as evidence for them to make conclusions in their own lives, that many people here do so while denying that for other people. What’s poisonous about that?

Teresa, you make the sensible distinction between evidence of personal belief and that required for something like science. Don’t expect that some of those here will accept that there is a difference and that evidence for personal belief isn’t valid for its purpose, personal belief.

I accept that religious people are not hopelessly irrational. Many base their belief on something personal but, not all. Some have simply never ventured outside their upbringing. In the former case, I don’t see my purpose in life as having to dispel other people’s interpretations of their own experiences. I would probably interpret the same events if they happened to me differently, but I’m not so self-absorbed as to think others must reach the same conclusions as I do.

The only problem I have with individual revelation is the tendency of some believers to then make it their mission in life to impose their special message on others. It then ceases to be a matter of individual revelation and enters the realm of public menace. I am NOT accusing anyone here of doing that.

If someone has an experience in his/her life that convinces them that there is a god, and that doesn’t result in him harming himself or others, then I have no problem with that.

Now, I’m really going to ramble on.

But the definition of “harm” of course is a sliding scale, i.e. believing demonstrably false ideas about the natural world, constant fear of offending an omnipotent being, strained relationships with non-believers, etc., are things that some might think are actual problems. These can all come from religion, even mainstream religion. But, to the extent that the harm is self-inflicted and MINOR it’s still none of my business. But, I’d extend a differing view point as a matter of concern for others, and not just to push my opinion.

And that’s because there is, IMO, a lot more freedom and personal fulfillment to be had in the materialist worldview than in most religions. But, I recognize that freedom and even “fulfillment” are not equally valued by all. Some want divine love, structure and assurance more than these things. And others are just convinced that they’ve experienced god.

Supernatural belief will always be with us in some form or another because humans are creatures of imagination. Faith is an outcropping of hope and imagination. The tendency for human beings to reach beyond logic to a potential future, when all indications are that such a vision is silly, is what has driven some great leaps forward. There are some who hope against Relativistic physics that there will be a way to travel faster than light to distant reaches of the galaxy and even farther. For the moment this is simply wishful thinking. But, if we limit our imaginations only to what we know for sure, we will be poorer. Faith, of a sort, is necessary. But, it does nothing all by itself and can even be harmful if relied upon. It needs to be followed up with the work of science. Until then, it needs to be classified not as reality, but as hope, conjecture, unfulfilled desire, work-in-progress, or some other label befitting its status as potential not actual. Doubt is also important. It keeps us humble.

Then any reasonable person would conclude my comment didn’t refer to you. I’ll get to your blog sometime, Siamang.

Hey now, there is no reason to threaten anyone.

Siamang said,

September 11, 2007 at 5:49 pm

Or Star Trek books and mags!

How did I know you were going to say that??!?

Because I’m the biggest Trek fan here?

Teresa said:

It seems I’ve struck a nerve. Siamang you are really sounding bias now.

Guess the ‘friendly’ has worn off. I really thought I had happened upon those with other beliefs that I could dialogue with about who I am and who they are without being belittled.

I guess not.

Dear, you are among rationalists, atheists, Freethinkers, and Humanists here. Think about it for a bit.

Dear, you are among rationalists, atheists, Freethinkers, and Humanists here. Mriana

You’re predicting failure of this discussion rather than rooting for the success of this discussion.

Looks like I’m batting 100 on that count, then, isn’t it.

Mriana’s claims that there is rationalism, freethinking and humanism here is a bit of an exaggeration. There is some of it here but try really applying the first two rigorously and you’ll find the opposite of the third one is quite in evidence.

HappyNat, Siamang invited me to visit once, I just haven’t gotten around to it. Tell you what, you list one and I’ll visit it right after.

Mriana’s claims that there is rationalism, freethinking and humanism here is a bit of an exaggeration. There is some of it here but try really applying the first two rigorously and you’ll find the opposite of the third one is quite in evidence.

Again, you are taking it out of context and twisting what I said, Olvlzl. I said there were Rationalists, Freethinkers, and Humanists. That do NOT necessarily mean there is rationalaism, freethought, and humanism. Humanist can be very rational and freethinking, contrary to your opinion. I don’t know what you have against Humanism, but whatever…

Olvlzl, Humanists are human. They are not perfect and they are not ALWAYS rational becuase they are human. They are not Vulcans, but rather passionate and emotional human beings. Being a Humanist does not make a person perfect.

I’m getting a bit tired of your confrontation remarks, taking things out of context, and down right game playing.

I never once said one could not be a Religious Humanist. I know of many Religious Humanists, BUT you have to understand, their concept of God is not supernatural or metaphysical. If you question this then you need to visit the Sea of Faith link I keep posting around here and Greg Epsteins Harvard Humanist Chaplin page. Religious Humanists are non-theists.

I really would appreciate it if some people would stop pulling strawmen out of their hats and trying to aggetate others.

Hi Maria,

I didn’t find any good restaurants around Lake Tahoe although I’m sure there are several. We were on the Nevada side of the mountains and we kept things simple.

All this rancor comes from people talking about each other rather than talking about themselves, so I’ll just speak for myself, and try to help you understand what is necessary to convince me of something remarkable. This is just what I require for myself, not what I think you or anyone else should require. That’s none of my business.

Firstly, I’m glad that your family members were able to recover from their illnesses. The stories are remarkable and I have heard many such stories. Some of the stories include people praying and some do not. Some are about Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, and members of small, almost unheard-of religions, and some are about people who have no religious beliefs at all. I’m glad for all of them, but I personally don’t find any of these stories sufficient to convince me that a supernatural being intervened in their diseases. Even if I did believe that a supernatural being was responsible, the fact that the stories involve people of very widely differing beliefs means that the stories would still not convince me that any one religion had somehow more effect than any other.

Now I’m going to suppose some things about you, so let me know if this is correct for you: Your experience of these recoveries supports your belief which you already had before those events happened. So you put your experience into that context of your faith in God. If you and your family had not done the praying and the unexpected recoveries still occurred I think that you and your family would still have attributed the recoveries to God, because they seemed miraculous to you. Whether you prayed or not is not my point. For you to describe these recoveries as miracles requires you to have faith both in God and in doctors. You would need to have been convinced that the initial diagnoses of those life-threatening diseases were indeed accurate and that the doctors were competent in diagnosing. Calling the recoveries miraculous requires belief that they should not have happened by any natural means, and that requires an assumption that the doctors knew what they were talking about. That is sometimes not a wise assumption:

Many years ago when my daughter was four years old, from an MRI image her doctors found a lesion in her brain. The neurologist said it was a cyst that would grow and if not removed would eventually kill her and the neurosurgeon agreed. There were horrid discussions about opening up her face as one would open a car door in order to get to the cyst. Fortunately, in the midst of my anguish I decided to get a second opinion from another doctor who was not with that medical group. He happened to be the most prominent neurosurgeon on this specific type of lesion and looking at the same MRI images he immediately saw that it was not a cyst, just a small, harmless empty space in that area. If they had operated, they would not have found anything to remove. She’s fine and is now 21, attending college with no neurological problems. She’s just a challenging pain in the neck who’s too smart for her own good. I did not put much faith in just one medical opinion. If I had, and the surgery had been performed the surgeon might have said either, “Oops, I didn’t need to do this,” or “That’s strange, the cyst has unexplainably disappeared,” or he might have said nothing, closed her face up and declared the operation a “success.” So just as you put your experience into the context of your beliefs, I put my experience into the context of my way of thinking, which is to double check and triple check before jumping to a conclusion in making an important decision.

I’m not saying my story implies anything about your stories. I’m not saying that your way of seeing things is “wrong.” I’m only trying to give you insight into why your way just does not work for me.

As I said in an earlier comment to you, some people need more than hearing someone else’s stories to convince them of something remarkable. They simply need to see it for themselves. And as I also said, they’re not better or worse, just different. So when I hear your stories, it’s just not enough. For me. I’m not saying or implying that you are either a liar or are crazy. You might be a liar or crazy but so far I have no reason to assume yes or no about such things. I just need more than somebody’s story about somebody else to accept the explanation that you accept.

Teresa, I’m sure you have at times heard people tell you things that you thought were very improbable, and before accepting them as true you wanted to see it for yourself and have more solid confirmation than just the person’s story. Apply that experience to me, and you may understand how I and perhaps others here think and feel.

Olvlzl, Humanists are human. They are not perfect and they are not ALWAYS rational becuase they are human. They are not Vulcans, but rather passionate and emotional human beings. Being a Humanist does not make a person perfect.

I’m getting a bit tired of your confrontation remarks, taking things out of context, and down right game playing.

I never once said one could not be a Religious Humanist. I know of many Religious Humanists, BUT you have to understand, their concept of God is not supernatural or metaphysical. If you question this then you need to visit the Sea of Faith link I keep posting around here and Greg Epsteins Harvard Humanist Chaplin page. Religious Humanists are non-theists.

I really would appreciate it if some people would stop pulling strawmen out of their hats and trying to aggetate others.

I agree. Olvlzl I think you need to calm down-why do you keep attacking Mriana in particular and taking her remarks out of context? People call themselves rationalists and humanists to differentiate that they are not religious and/or that religion doesn’t guide their lives. It doesn’t make them always rational. No one is always rational, and I have yet to see anyone on here say that non-religious people are always rational. You say you didn’t say anyone is always like anything, well, maybe you didn’t use the word always, but you do sure seem to be generalizing quite a bit about people on this board.

Mriana started talking about religious faith as a sign of mental illness using her degree in psychology to lend her claims something like authority.

There you go again. I said it was a symptom, not a sign of mental illness. There is a BIG difference.

distorted what I’d said

Who distorted who? Most reputable psychologist don’t use the Rorschach anymore because it is a joke. You really need to update your information.

I happen to be a fan or rigorous science

And that too has been accused of being a religion, so I could have taken the same route and accused you the same thing, but I did not. I hardly see you as a scientist though.

You really put way too much into what people say and to sit there and reword what people do say to suite your own means is not a good thing because not only is it taking it out of context, it’s putting words in their mouths they did not say. I still stand by what I said of religious delusions being a SYMPTOM of mental illness, but NOT the mental illness in and of itself.

I agree. Olvlzl I think you need to calm down-why do you keep attacking Mriana in particular and taking her remarks out of context? People call themselves rationalists and humanists to differentiate that they are not religious and/or that religion doesn’t guide their lives. It doesn’t make them always rational. No one is always rational, and I have yet to see anyone on here say that non-religious people are always rational. You say you didn’t say anyone is always like anything, well, maybe you didn’t use the word always, but you do sure seem to be generalizing quite a bit about people on this board.

Thanks Maria and you are right about the labels Rationalists, Humanists and alike. He also does generalize and he does it way too much. Then he wonders why we think he is aggetating others and playing games.

I am considering joining the Gideon’s. I was praying about it and trying to decide if it would be a good fit for me. I found your site while researching information on the Gideon’s. I must admit I don’t understand how ANYONE could have the faith it takes to be an atheist, but, the fact that this many atheists are noticing the bibles makes me think it would be a good endeavor. May God bless you all for helping me with this decision. Hopefully, some of you will read the promise of the scriptures, accept it, and we will have a good laugh about this 10,000 years from now.

Clueless fucking passive-agressive Christian Newbie alert!

1. Comments on a long-dead discussion thread from fucking MARCH.
2. Completely fucking off-topic.
3. Insulting holier-than-fucking-thou “you’re all wrong, I’m right, therefore GOTCHA” so-called “joke”.
4. Complete cut and paste job. AWESOME computer-skills!

Bra-fucking-vo, Einstein.

Ignore it and not said a word? I rather think Hemant should post these gems from time to time as topics to discuss.

I think folks should discuss why mainstream Christian culture seems to get their jollies off of these charming passive-agressive wish-fulfillment revenge fantasies.

I am seriously impressed, Richard. That was the kindest, most thoughtful version of tearing someone a new one that I have seen in a while. I tend to forget that it can be done that way, it’s so seldom seen. Wish I had the knack for doing that, but I just don’t speak the lingo.

Wow, I just read all this whole thread (string? I am not an experienced blogger if that is what I am doing here).
Very interesting. I am proabably too late to the party as this thread is so old, but I hope not.

Let me start by saying I know everything. ha ha ha , that was a joke.

Over all I must say the most important / impressive thing is the desire to keep this as a truly open hearted dialog not an “insult-fest”. Wade seems to be the driving force and his voice definately injects a very “Christian” love despite the fact that he is not Christian. This Christian love is, unfortuantly, lacking in many Christians. His recent response to Bill highlights this. It, interestingly shows an Atheist being more Christ-like than a follower of Christ.

I am on the fence as to divulge my beleif (even though I may not be able to keep it hidden), because, interestingly I found myself wating to know beliefs of various writers. I realized that I wanted to know that so that I could dump all my prejudices on them, very unfair of me. I have always found it very interesting to notice when I fall short of my own image of myslef / expectations of others.

I ended up here cuz I came across something that suggested Atheists should remove bibles from hotels (The Abimelech Society). I was curious as to the legal issues. Is taking it stealing and whose property is it, if anyones. I looked at a number of sites. Then as I read this one, there was a flood of tangents many of which I feel warrent comments. But I will start with the Gideon / Abimelech issue.

First is the very 1st comment made by Mike C, which drew kudos from a few including Wade. It is …
“I think the answer would be to ask yourself: “If I left atheist literature here in the hotel room for the benefit of others, what would I want a Christian who came across it to do with it?” Whatever you decide you’d want them to do to your stuff, do that. (BTW, no it’s not stealing to take a Gideons Bible. That’s what they hope you’ll do with them. )”

To start with the “BTW”, according to Wikipedia (which did not cite a source) Gideons expects that the bibles will not be taken. This is somewhat supported by the Gideons site which says (hardcore paraphrasing on my part here) that the founders wanted to be able to support the practice of thier faith by having a bible in each hotel room. IOW (In other words) they were not trying to convert non-Christians, but help out other Christians. But the Gideons now have clealry and overtly expressed that the primary focus of thier mission is to spread the word of God. This would imply they want the bibles to have that effect. If that is the case they would want (I presume) potential converts to take them, but not Atheists trying to prevent the spread of the word (there is abit more on this but it is more appropriate to put it in later)

Now re the basic point he uses, basically, the golden rule, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” This is a very tolerant position, it sounds reasonable, and is often wise counsel. There are times however where tolerance and “do unto others” is not wise. For eg, what if the literature were from another group we are all familiar with, that Nazi party. They were, similarly, interested in making things good for thier followers. And their literature was succesful in converting poeple to join the nazi cause (Hitler, whose message was one of hope, was Times “Man of the Year” before he was exposed). Tolerance of the Nazi regime would be hard to justify.

I am obviously not saying that the bible is akin to Nazi literature, but what I am saying is that tolerance is not always virtuous. To beat a dead horse, tolerance of someone whose relgion requires virgin sacrifices would be hard to justfiy. One must look at that which is being tolerated to see if tolerance is wise. Note I am also not passing judgement on whether or not the Bible should or should not be tolerated by Atheists, I am merely saying they must each look at the goodness or evilness in /caused by the bible. If they feel they dont beleive in it but that it brings much good into the world, tolerance seems reasonable. If they feel it is evil, intolerance wins the day.

There were a number of comments about how stealing them is not a good thing to do. Stealing is a very charged word that can cause an otherswise civil discourse to become hostile, in fact I think it is a negative judgement of the action of taking something. Taking becomes stealing only under certain circumstances. One of the key circumstances is that the item must be owned by someone else. If an item is not owned by anyone or any group, it cannot be stolen. Further ownership is not eternal. Property can be abandoned by the owner at which point it cannot be stolen. I beleive that the Gideon’s bibles cannot be stolen and it is improper to say that anyone taking them is stealing. I am fairly certain that a court of law would deem these bibles to be abandoned property UNLESS they have been gifted to the hotels, which is HIGHLY unlikley in that the hotels would owe tax on them, and I doubt that the hotels want to pay to have the bibles in the rooms. So I would propose that the word stealing be replaced with taking whenever talking about taking Gideons bibles.

Similarly, once someone chooses to, they become the owner of the abandoned property. They have the right to do with it what they choose, including defacing or destroying it and then they too can abondon it. As one cannot steal unowned property I dont think one can deface ones own property. This is not entirely true however, in that if I bot the Mona Lisa, and spray painted it, I think we would all agree i had defaced it even though I owned it. Despite this I think deface is also a fairly highly accusatory term and is likely to lead to civilness dissolving. Therfore I would suggest using a term more congenial, like “altering”.

My next observations were regarding the impact of taking / altering as well as other courses of action like adding literature or stickers. Very interesting stuff here. I see some surprising things from both the Atheists and the Christians here. I will start with my comments on the Atheists posts. If I were an Atheist (Note i will start the other section “If I were a Christian”). I think I would see that there are basically 2 huge categories. Those who are tolerant (do not see Christianity as evil and/or something to fight against) and want to make coexistance the goal, and those who were intolerant (who see Christianity as evil and/or something to fight against). If I were a tolerant Atheisit (Like it seems Wade and Mike C are) I would think I face an interesting dilemma re what to do about intolerant Atheists….darn, I gotta go now, I hope I can continue / there is still any interest in this thread.

Take care all, I hope we all find truth.

I found this link as I was looking to buy memorial bibles in memory for a friend and neighbor. My desire was to have them put in places as access material to choose to read or not to read, as the T.V. in each room is there to watch or not. The bibles are bought by donations with indiviual’s money like mine. And usually in memory of a loved one. There is such a high level of love and compassion that puts those bibles in the rooms of motels and other places. Please allow me to share my personal thoughts and feels concerning some of the matters mentioned in previous letters.

I grew up in this country when respect was at such a high level. I have seen so many young and not so young people demand it for them self but refuse to show and share it towards others.
I was going through a difficult time this past year personally and physically. These challenges were unbarriable. While I waited in my chiropractors office he had a Gideon Bible on the table. I picked it up and found answers that people don’t usually give you. It was the saving Grace for me that day. My life and health changed that day !
I understand the feelings to be faithful to what you believe, but there are other things to consider. Knowing that this country was founded for the specific purpose for Christianity and Godly principles I think it’s important to respect this countries founding principles.
Same as in other countries that choose to serve Budda, or Cathloic. I’m always amaze at how when we go into those countries and respect them but not that of our own.
The same freedom that afords us to believe in other religions and life styles, was never intended to remove our established foundation that our forefathers fought and died for! Our fore fathers died to provide The United States with the kind of freedom that protect our lives if we choose to believe something else, but was never intended to remove our foundational principals or established religion. Knowing that this country was founded by and for the freedom to worship the (God of this Universe) that we believe in then, it is the right of this country to place the Bible and literture in as many places as we choose because that is whoi the bible represents. And we can choose to read them or not. There was a time that I too didn’t want to read or see a bible, but that same respect to leave it there, payed off when I needed it and one was there.
Same as replacing healthy food for fast food, going to the health food store verse going to the doctor, we have a choice. Thank you to our service men and forefathers that our basis needs have not been taken away from us, yet!!! It’s amazing to me, and I’m not talking about the kind spoken young man that created this page with the question, but to those who were given this freedom to choose now uses the same freedom to try and remove mine or even offend me.

If you need a bible and ask the clerk to take one home I think they would be happy to supply you with one. But they are not placed in the rooms for desponal purposes, or for prankes. They are to be respected as our flag and not missused. There was a time respect was enforced. When it use to be a crime by this country if you abused the flag by crimmial punshiment. By God Himself judgement by death if you miss used the word that we now know as the bible. You use to be put to death for murder and now that’s not the case anymore either. All these thinks are still important and have the same value the only differences are the changes in the American people.
Thank you Hemant I respect you for asking !
I hope and pray your letter and the comments encourage people to think more responsible.
At some point and time things will be so many people doing what ever they feel and want that it’s going to cause all of us to loose all of our freedom. It’s all in the Gideon Bible in the last book of the bible.

If you take it or throw it away, doesn’t that go against what you as an atheist can’t tolerate? That is enforcing a religion or a belief on someone against their own free will. If you take the Bible and throw it away out of spite or hide it so no one else can find it, you are basically enforcing your non beliefs on someone other than yourself and preventing them from choosing whether they should be able to read it. The same way you may be offended if someone enforces their beliefs on you. The best thing to do is leave it alone. There’s no gun to your head forcing you to read it.

This is an interesting discussion. I get annoyed by these bibles, just because they are placed with such arrogance against other world views. I have never done anything with them. I think removing them or adding stickers would give too much attention to them. Ideally, it would be nice to add some more books to relativate the importance: Greek gods stories/fables, Bhagvat Gita, Koran, Grimm’s fairy tales and Portable Atheist or similar. But who has the money…
Realistically, a cool print-out of contradictions, or warning sign/sticker for the violence, or not doing anything would be the options.

Have studied many Religions. none of them come up to the mark. However i still have a sneaking feeling that there is a god behind it all! Not the cruel God of Judaism / Christianity or Islam. Not Nature as that is not only cruel but impersonal in ints cruelty. Not interested in, on your knees cowtowing Religions anywhere in the world. If we are to make informed decisions we must be allowed to read these dreadful Bibles for ourselves. As others have said Burning Bibles makes us the same as Churches of old. Library at Alexandria in particular.
If we are made in god’s image, then we should learn to respect the best in each other, even the stinking fundamentalists have some good qualities. We could learn how to make money out of thick country folk in the Bible belt! No but seriously folks no wonder god is missing, we have totally f£$^$” the world and each other up. That’s why I like this site, it calls itself friendly atheist! The world moves on and we are making new discoveries every day that the Church of old would have burn’t us at the stake for. In summary unlerline the cruel bits that current law outlaws (like the stoning of disobedient children etc)! Then put it back and go in peace and be thankful that superstition, fear and guilt mongering are not your trade mark.

I don’t think it’d be much of a problem to leave some sort of quote, like,

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? (Epicurus)

What had he done to warrant committing suicide that Christianity made him feel better about? Christianity lets you off the hook for wrongs committed OR it promises you an afterlife that it can’t prove, because you feel wronged in this life. It’s attitude is – accept all the crap the cruel and selfish hand out, because your invisible friend is bigger than them and will sort them out for you in an afterlife! Thus avoiding making the WORLD a better place in the hopes of a heaven. How gullible, childish and cowardly. As Napolean said: ‘Religion, the only reason the poor don’t kill the rich!’

Facebook group ‘Freedom from Religion’ has a picture I put up from facebook ‘Gideon Bibles YES or NO’ has a bookmark to leave inside ‘Burn this Book – send it straight to Hell where it belongs.
Think this link should work -
http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=678088531#/photo.php?pid=1438470&o=all&op=1&view=all&subj=2346399275&aid=-1&id=678088531&oid=2346399275&ref=mf

Joe re: Elliot
Of course not. No one wants anyone to committ suicide. BUT- 1. How, after being rejected by those dear to him, can he have rejected them first? 2. If someone finds religion as something to make his life worth living for, after reading the Gideons cherry picked verses, then fine.
BUT the so called ‘Holy Bible’ is the last place anyone should look for moral guidance. If you aren’t aware of the dreadful things written in there as moral guidance then I suggest The ‘Skeptics annotated Bible’ site. You can compare with your copy of the King James Bible to prove it’s not made up. I double dare you. It (KJV of Holy Bible) is a bronze age tribal guide for warring nations. The God of the whole world seemed to only have time for Jews and even then he destroyed them if they dared disagree.
For instance would you take your disobedient child to the edge of town and have him stoned?
Even if it were true it is totally out of date and out of touch with real life.
The Golden Rule (which existed thousands of years before Christianity and is used by all Religions and civilised societies) is the only guide rule necessary.
Half the 10 Commandments are about a vain invisible God’s need to be worshipped!

Hi Joe – Re Elliott
I doubt that Elliott analyses his Bible, as us sceptics do. I suspect as all priest do, he seeks out the nice bits, for the gullible congregation.
If You know Elliott, then you know that he is now a priest, so he should know his Bible. In which case if he has been to Bible school (some self-made priests don’t!), he will have come across all the evil stuff and learned all the inadequate rationalisations that Bible schools come up with. Show him this site and let him speak for himself! http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/03/25/gideon-bibles-and-atheists/

Did you go to ‘Skeptics Annotated Bible’ site, as I double dared you to? Get Eliott to go there too.
Whilst most modern Christians (hopefully!) wouldn’t condone most of what these wicked Bible verses say. What worries me and most rational people is that Whilst they (the wicked verses) are still left in KJV, they can be pulled forth at any time and used indiscriminately, by any nutter, church or regime (such as the Roman Catholic, Jew Hating, Adolf Hitler did). I am reminded of numerous Catholic Inquisitions, Holy Wars, Witch Hunts or todays right wing Bible belt Pious Christians!!! Did you see the DVD ‘Jesus Camp’? Try getting them or any other extreme Christians to remove or sanitise one word of KJV and they will start World War III, which they nearly did by encouraging Bush, when he told the USA that God had told him to go to war with Iraq, when in fact the Bin Ladens all come from Saudi Arabia? (OIL pipelines are needed in Iraq not Saudi). These nutty people can’t wait for War on a global scale, because they think from reading(?) (instead of critically studying) their Bible it would herald Christs second coming. Help!
Anyway to answer your question.-
As I have said previously the first commandments have nothing to do with morality,
The second half of the ten Commandments are about rules for bronze age tribes.
5. Honour your Parents (remembering disobedient Children get stoned, I’m not impressed with such violence).
6. Don’t Kill (Unless it’s for God or the State (justified or Holy War and Capital Punishment)). Incidently if America is a Christian country, then why is it still following the Jewish Eye for an eye principle instead of following Jesus Christs rule of turning the other cheek???
7. Don’t committ adultery (another stoning offence FOR THE WOMAN).
8. Don’t Steal (Tell that to Televangelist Priests who get the poor to send money to spread ‘God’s word).
9. Don’t Lie (Tell that to Priests, Politicians etc.).
10. Dont Covet neighbours house, wife, manservant, maidservant, cattle, nor anything else of HIS (Christian America is the Greediest Nation on Earth).
If God is supposed to be all knowing then surely his rules would be all encompassing for all time.
Nothing Unique in those Ten Commandments that hasn’t already been said by other Religions and civilised Countries throughout all History.
Incidently the ten Commandments arn’t the only commands from God. Study your Bible properly and be prepared to be shocked! Slavery condoned, Woman hating etc.
First century rules are not adequate for 21st century people.
Why are there so many different sects and denominations, if the Bibles message is so clear. Each new interpretation of the Holey Bible springs forth yet another new money making venture. If the love of money is the root of all evil, then why do the churches never have enough? And with all that money, why don’t they pay taxes?
Why should I be taxed on something I don’t believe in, when schools and hospitals really need the money!
Of course it is not in Religions interest to have people over educated, because then they could learn to analyse the bronze age myths for themselves, and find them wanting.
In closing, I think the Bible should have a warning sticker put on it. NOT FOR CHILDREN.

Helen, Why do you gamble?
In the tooth & claw world, the casino house always wins in the end.
Religions are laughing all the way to the bank. Playing on peoples fears and gullibility.

To say that Religion does not hurt at all is being naive. Have you not read the history of Religions, especially the Christian or Muslim ones? The Inquisitions, the holy wars, the witch burnings, the hatred of women (see new book out ‘Does God hate Women?) Let alone what goes on today in God’s name.

Religion gives people false hope, because most are frightened of death and what might or might not be beyond it. The gamble you talk of is Pascals wager, which is flawed in that if you believe only because it is a safer bet bet than not believing, then don’t you think your God would know your false reason for believing and hold that against you? We have no pre-birth memories either, yet we are here. Likewise after death it will not matter as we will have no bodily bits to percieve and analyse with. Therefore end of life as we know it. FULL STOP. Beyond that is just guess work, otherwise why are there so many different religions all over the world with so many different stories?

As for Gideon Bibles endless supply… if everyone actually read them instead of just cherry picking out the Gideons chosen verses, designed to make you feel worthless without Jesus, then more people would become atheists or at least agnostics. Unfortunately the Bible is so boring people doon’t stick with it, to uncover the disgusting divisiveness of the so called ‘Holy’ book.

See Sam Harris’ site for his dissection of the ‘good’ book, and also the Koran, and book of Mormon, just to show he is not being partisan.
http://www.reasonproject.org/scripture_project/The_Bible:Matthew_1/
Good luck Helen in your search for reality instead of escapism.
No Christians have been ‘there’ and returned either Helen.

Stop relying on a 2000 plus year old history of Jewish and Christian myths for lifes guidance.

Well, it is good to see this thread is still strong. You know, I do have to admit that, as a Christian, I pay little attention to atheists. I have already went through my human rationalization i.e. “I’m smarter than God” stage. Praise Jesus I came out sane on the other side. Thank you for noticing the Bibles. I still have not joined the Gideons. You have to be a member of a church and I have a problem with church membership. Personal, mine to deal with. I intend to join as soon as the right opportunity presents itself. There can be no greater calling than fighting ignorance whereever it rears its ugly head. God Bless You All! I mean that! The sooner Christians realize that sin, not sinners, are the enemy, the better off the world will be.

Regarding Grahm Ash Porter coment of Aug 12 2009. My question is, What hope does atheism give a person …none.

For many years man has listened to radio signals from space to detrermine if they can identify a language ( intellengence ) out there. Soneday we may find what we’re looking for.

Everyone will agree that it takes a great amount of intellegence to develope a language.

The language is built into the DNA of every living creature. Cells can read this DNA language and to an extent so can we now.

That greater intellegence is out there even closer than many think.

Gosh, I was researching and I came across this website. Amazing how the Bible is so offensive to folks. I think actually it is a book for Christians, to guide them and give them examples of what happened, why it happened, how to avoid it, how to learn lessons from it. It’s kind of what’s happening on a daily basis all around us. The words of the bible are sharper than any sword and it cuts both ways. Maybe that’s what atheists are feeling…. ‘the cut’. We Christians feel ‘the cut’ too but we respond to it differently…. as a warning, as a chastisementment…. as encouragement. I invite ALL atheists to stop judging the book. It was not meant for them. Not yet! But it will come back to haunt them.

Sally , basing your belief on false assumptions (that the bible is the word of god, which it so obviously is not) you then proceed to tell us to not judge it!
In every area of my life I judge everything I come into contact with (a survival mechanism). All I have found in the Bible are some history, some myths, tribal wars, hatred of all peoples especially women, and defunct, inadequate bronze age morals. How it helps you I cannot understand? The Beatitudes (Sermon on the Mount) maybe has some use. The ten Commandments an ego trip of a bronze age desert god. Way out of date for the 21st Century. See comments 123 – 135 for my earlier thoughts on them.
The KJV is poetic English and has value in that respect. But this covers the devlish hatred of a petulant and immature God. Certainly not a God that I could freely believe in!
As for the Bible being a book for Christians: The Old Testament was/is for Jews, conveniently linked to the New Testament after Christ. With so much contradiction and hatred within its pages you wonder why we find it offensive! Read it properly and open your eyes as we have done. The proper study of humanity is humanity, not bronze age myths. It has survived 2000 years because people were forced to attend Church and make tithes to it, making Churches the richest institutions on the planet.
60 trillion trillion flies feast on shit, but doesn’t make it correct for me to do.
Instead of praying for atheists to see the ‘truth’ in your book. Get a real life based on what is out there, not imagining a cosy invisible friend who is going to look after you when you die. I don’t like your God and I don’t like ‘his’ followers trying to impinge their beliefs on rational thinkers.

I would ask myself,Self if I don’t believe in God then why does this book in a hotel sitting in the dresser bother me so much? If a book about a fairy was in the same dresser it would not bother me at all. Huh whats up with that?

Hi Bombanater,

Anthropologists should remain detached from the views of the people they are studying. You don’t sound like you’re merely describing the beliefs of your “many Christian friends.” You sound suspiciously like you’re defending your own beliefs.

Nevertheless, what you’ve said is not really a new perspective. It’s Argument from Good Intention. “Meaning well” when taking an action may be sincere or not, may be a pure or a mixed motive, but it by itself it does not remove responsibility for harmful effects of a person’s actions.

The evangelizing act of placing a Gideon Bible in a hotel room, as I said to Daniel above, is for the most part innocuous. It’s simply a reminder of those other “well intentioned” evangelizing acts that I listed, acts that destroy innocent people’s private lives, erode our civil liberties including freedom of religion, set our nation back in the scientific world, and cause immeasurable harm, including preventable disease and death.

Anthropology should also include insights into biology and psychology. Evangelizing basically does two things, one obvious, the other more subtle. The obvious biological one is to “perpetuate the species.” Organisms must reproduce themselves or go extinct, and they compete with other organisms. Religions that are able to grow memberships not just through family inheritance but also through conversion tend to grow faster and are better able to survive than their less prolific competitors.

The more subtle effect is a psychological one, to reinforce a feeble faith. It’s hard to maintain a belief in invisible, inaudible and intangible things that do not respond to one’s appeals. One way to shore up a crumbling faith is to immerse oneself in a crowd of fellow believers. They come together regularly to nod at each other, saying “You believe, don’t you?” (nod, nod) “Oh yes! You too, right?” “Of course!” (nod, nod)

It’s kind of similar to how Antarctic penguins keep warm in a blizzard by huddling close together. The ones on the outside edge of the huddle keep pushing in toward the middle, and so the whole group keeps circulating itself from center to periphery, over and over. They all stay just warm enough to not freeze.

So evangelizing, swelling the sheer numbers of the mutual-prop-up-the-sagging-faith society helps this process. Seen in this way, it is not necessarily so selfless an act as your good intentions angle suggests. It is at least in part also a selfish attempt to make oneself feel less uncomfortable.

The CHRISTIANS believe the words….The FOOL has said in his heart that “there is no God”. Note: it is out of the condition of your heart that your mouth speaks. Your heart is not right. Comments concerning whether or not the Bible is God’s words matter not to the Christian. IT’S NOT YOUR BOOK. The Satanic Bible is to the Satanist what the Christian Bible is to the Christian. The evolutionist has his bible too. The atheists bible is his heart. So as a Christian, I say…. No amount of argument makes it right to KILL/SACRIFICE an ‘unborn child’. The majority of so-called ‘accidental pregnancies’ are avoidable. Why should an ‘innocent’ be tortured to death, because two totally irresponsible people were just having fun. The solution is for women to understand that if they have unprotected sex they may just get pregnant. But if they happen to be scared, selfish or immature they they simply opt for getting it cut out. As far as I am concerned there should be sentences for those two – they should ‘spend time’ for illegally bringing forth a fetus that they can have fun torturing to death. During that ‘time served’ they should be taught a better way to handle, or avoid the problem in the first place. The abortionist is truly not a doctor, but a murderer. There are people who do not know, that women in certain ‘religions’ produce offspring for the act of human sacrifice. They do it in secret…. and the abortionist doctor does it in public. But the cause is the same.

Richard believes that my comments would not be effective to those ‘emotionally’ over the age of seven. Yet the atheist behaves like an emotional seven-year old who cannot get their own way.

Christians have the ball and atheists want to get hold of if to put a hole in it. Christians do not want to put a hole into the beliefs of atheists, because it is already in hole…. we want to invite them to be whole.

By the way, the real (as opposed to counterfeit) Christian is NOT religious. Religion and Christianity are two different and opposing things.

As for scientific research…billions are spent trying to save lives. Experiments on animals and cells and millions of people fo practice on, cannot suffice. The flesh of animals and of humans are not the same. The creator made sure of that. Experiments and cures may work for a while but they are not the solution. I would love to see some studies done on prevention, rather than cure. Christians do that for free.
They would go further than the so-called cures we have come up with.
What’s wrong with me then, based on my beliefs and experiences, to share my view with others…………that there is another way of solving life’s problems and it can be found IN THE BIBLE. That if you keep consuming that alcohol you will do your kidneys in. Oh, but wait! We can get one from somebody else, even if it means paying a handsome sum to have someone knocked off to get it. Holywood stuff, but real. I am aware that you philosophers revel in your ability to spin words and phrases, but sometimes you would do well to listen to the logics of a 7-year old. Evolution is the biggest hoax of all times and all of creation teaches that. There is no such thing as an ape man, but the scientists are sure busy trying to make one. It’s all made up, by someone who was too embarrassed to admit that he mixed up the bones. There are some scientists locked up in secret laboratories working hard at creating monsters. While they are in their closests doing that, the atheists are out in the open doing the same. Creating a brood of humans going around patting themselves on the back and messing up society, simply by denying there THERE IS A GOD.

Give God The Glory!

I would like to speak to an X atheist please. How did he/she become an X.

How are you keeping Graham?
Made any new discoveries lately?
What is, always was! ……and always will be. The only thing evolving, if we don’t watch it, is our selfish ways. God always allows mankind free rein, to the point where mankind is destroying himself, and consequently the world. As a matter of fact, which you probably know, the world cleanses and renews itself in an ordered fashion. Scientists have their work cut out. It is within man’s nature to want to know, how, when, why and where….. and of course they need something or someone to explore and practice on. After all, we are the healthier for it.
Take for instance the mess this world is in. Who caused it, God? Certainly not, but He warned us that we would live according to the choices we make………. reaping what we sew. What’s so wrong with that Graham? That’s perfect logic. You have to be an ignoramus (to put it in your words) not to be able to understand that. I don’t need to pull out my thesaurus to find an appropriate word to tell you like it is. You are simply blinded by education. A philosopher of the highest order! In our world we say, abortion is a sin. In your world we must not ‘try’ to tell you how to live. Education, religion, politics, sex – keep God out you say – are you joking? God shows you how to do all that stuff!
However, Christians save themselves a lot of hassle if they follow the rules. You don’t have to believe the rules, or agree with the rules of your organization, but if you do things will run smoothly, or rather, smoother. Whether it’s a school, grocery store, or a home – things just work out better when you tow the line. Otherwise you just leave and start your own school, or grocery store, or home or whatever. Voila! That is simply what happens in life.
Graham, I am not at all impressed or challenged by your verbose comments, only more determined. Atheists, Islamists, Jews, Christians and all other ‘isms’ and ‘ists’ will breath their last breath and still just be ‘scratching the surface’ – looking for the truth. Our manual (Holy Bible) says : God’s ways are past finding out. Unfortunatly the ‘ists’ have not discovered that yet! God is the TRUTH, THE WAY, THE LIFE. You just (from the depths of your very being) refuse to acknowledge him. You will find a verse in the Holy Bible that says tells you that even the demons believe “and tremble”. Atheists would do well to ponder on the possibility, that ‘after all’, there ‘might’ just be A GOD!
Until next time!