Welcome to Our World, Michael

This is not a happy family. The mom’s vulgar anger is likely from fear of failing her socially expected role, the chubby dad seems passive and perhaps overeats to stuff down his disallowed feelings, the boy is a little young to make this decision without the risk that it’s really more about just wanting to be independent from his mom, and who is the unseen operator of the camera? A younger sibling, perhaps? The filming was planned in advance. Lots of secret intrigue for a suburban middle class family of four. They need family counseling, concentrating on opening up communication.

I seem to get a lot of socks for Christmas too… Cat got a better present from my parents then I did last Christmas. I hope that was not staged, it’s a good example of the fear theists have of their children loosing their salvation. Hector Avalos gave a great presentation at a recent Minnesota Atheists meeting about the cause of religious conflict from a scarce resources perspective. One of the scarce resources is salvation. This may also be why people in the Islamic world are hostile to American culture. They see their children watching Bay Watch, and Dallas, and trying to live western lifestyles and they fear this will risk their kids eternal souls.

Video is gone now.

Somebody wasn’t supposed to post that I guess!

onegoodmove.org still has it but it’s only the audio… The video is here now.

One thing…it’s referred to as a Catholic family. I don’t remember the original video specifying any denomination. It’s assumed that it Catholic because of the mention of the Bishop, but man denominations have Bishops. It could have been Bishop T.D. Jakes for all we know.

I think it just goes to show you what it’s like to say you don’t believe in god. I bet this kid was scared of what his mom would do to him so he taped it. Like some other people have said about this video, what’s up with the dad just sitting there? Calm your wife down man!

I guess I shouldn’t have snuck into their house without their permission and filmed them then loaded it up on the internet.

Wait. I didn’t do that. One of their kids did, presumably.

To get exactly this kind of reaction, presumably.

To say… look at my parents and how they treat me.

Now in the days of yore, kids just grew up to write a tell-all book like “Mommie Dearest”.

YouTube is the new version of that. People “laughing at” this family don’t know them. People who know them, if they really know them and know them to be better people than this clip shows, WON’T laugh, they’ll cry.

I’m sure whoever was running that camera will get a tongue lashing as well, and no christmas presents either. If the mom has an open mind and a charitable and humble spirit, she’ll look on this as a learning moment. The reason that video was taken and uploaded was BECAUSE HER CHILDREN DON’T RESPECT HER.

I wonder why.

The whole idea of filming private family moments and posting them on the internet for everyone to see is just messed up.

Well, you raise your kids in a messed up way and they do messed up things like this.

Whatever. I notice you’re more incensed by the kid’s behavior than in the mom’s behavior. I’m the opposite.

Well, I’m not really thinking about these folks individually. I’m thinking of it sociologically.

Individually, the genie’s out of the bottle. These people did something and made it public. Okay. Their own actions as a group, and they do something and take the consequences.

Nothing I can do will put that genie back in the bottle. They have run though the town square nude by their own actions.

Now, moving forward this becomes a part of history. An artifact of our shared culture. Given that this is now an artifact of our shared culture, CAN IT HELP OTHER FAMILIES?!

Yes, I think it can. If we are able to discuss it. Yes SHUN it. Yes describe it as negative behavior. Yes call it ugly. Yes point it out to people. Yes PLAY IT IN CHURCH. Yes understand that this illustrates a way not to behave toward your children.

Too late for this family perhaps. Not too late for others.

For this family, take stock. Understand that yes, someone broke the good china. Sweep it up and move on.

Or more likely don’t, because most often people will not change ever, ever, ever, even when the worst of them has been shown to the world, they do not change.

Siamang,
They did not run around nude through the town square by their own actions. They were exposed by one member of their household. The rest of the town (us) points and laughs, and no one thinks it’s important to help them to regain their dignity.

It’s pretty cold blooded to say so what if this family is devastated as long as the rest of society can grow from it. You may not be, but I’m thinking of these folks individually, and I think we all need to learn to do that more. Screw sociology if this is what it takes to enrich it.

They will probably eventually recover, more or less. But I doubt that they’ll ever have much of a chance to heal the problems that were there before the video was made. There apparently was a lack of trust. Now there is no chance of trust.

The rest of the town (us) points and laughs, and no one thinks it’s important to help them to regain their dignity.

My point is, HOW could it be possible for anyone’s actions to help this family regain their dignity? The genie’s out of the bottle, it’s impossible to unshit the bed… I could employ a hundred other aphorisms… But number one is, I can’t fix their family. Would it really help them if I… what, didn’t keep commenting on a web-site about them? Would they get the psychic vibe somehow that some people weren’t as viscious as the (over 400 at last count) comments on DIGG.com? “Oh, WHEW, at least SIAMANG restrained himself!”

It’s pretty cold blooded to say so what if this family is devastated as long as the rest of society can grow from it.

No, what I’m saying is that the family is devastated, if they are at all, BECAUSE of their own actions, and not just the actions of ONE person in the household. I count four people in that video. Every single one of them had a role to play in this fiasco. The kid (presumably) behind the camera had a role to play. The atheist Michael who tipped the videographer to start rolling. The mom for sure, for being just a horrible example, and the silent dad. This family’s problem didn’t start when the camera started rolling. Every action that led to this video being posted started LONG before that.

There apparently was a lack of trust. Now there is no chance of trust.

Well, that happens too. Kids fuck up. Parents fuck up. That’s part of parenting too. I set fire to my bedroom. But if you’ve got it in you to fix things when you fuck up, then that’s great.

This family might have it in themselves to fix this. They probably don’t, but that’s because I think they’re kind of messed up. But come on, nothing I do on http://www.friendlyatheist.com is going to give them the tools or take away the tools they need to do that.

I’m not a totemistic believer such that I think that by sending them good or charitable thoughts that they would recieve that and it would help them.

Happy birthday. It takes courage to get intimate here. I have a suggestion for a wonderful birthday present, and I’m not being smart-assed. As a celebration of your landmark year, give yourself the gift of deep maturity and you call your father.

Sincere thanks. But I’ve done that and more. I take that step every three or four years and reach out. I’ve done it time and again over my life… always breaking the silence, initiating the communication, attempting to reach out and include them.

But on some levels I do need to protect my family. I have a daughter now and I really can’t say that they would be a good addition to her emotional upbringing. I’m actually thankful they live a few states away… Let’s just say that I’ve been in situations with them that make Michael’s mom look like Mary Poppins.

Would it really help them if I… what, didn’t keep commenting on a web-site about them? Would they get the psychic vibe somehow that some people weren’t as viscious as the (over 400 at last count) comments on DIGG.com? “Oh, WHEW, at least SIAMANG restrained himself!”

The restraint probably wouldn’t help them, but it might help Siamang.

I’m only saying that there are far too few people who stop to think about the suffering of people being dragged through the mud like this, even if there’s not much they can do to stop it. The benefit we get from clucking at their negative example is nothing compared to the benefit we would get if we stopped to have some empathy. It’s a valuable quality that gets stronger with practice. If more people did it, these videos wouldn’t spread like wildfire, and gossipy scandals on TV would not grip the attention of the public as they do.

I’m not placing any judgements on you. That would be doing the very thing I’m objecting to. As for your own story and family, I commend you for your attempts to improve the relationships. Regardless of the response from the other side, you have grown just by making the offers. It’s a difficult balance to keep when you have negative influences that you can’t control in a family, and you have others to protect from those with whom you wish you could be closer.

Again, happy birthday, with no suggestions added. I’ll shut up about all this now.

The benefit we get from clucking at their negative example is nothing compared to the benefit we would get if we stopped to have some empathy. It’s a valuable quality that gets stronger with practice. If more people did it, these videos wouldn’t spread like wildfire, and gossipy scandals on TV would not grip the attention of the public as they do.

I think you’re fighting human nature there.

We police our own actions with social norms, and when Imus or Michael’s mother show up and do something stupid, they make an example out of themselves.

Yeah, I have much more sympathy for Michael’s family than for Imus, because Imus is in the public eye more by his own choice than by the random action of a teenager.

But this is moral instruction. This is how we as a society police our norms. Not pretty, not fun, it can run into a mob mentality and it can get ugly. But we can’t escape it…. it’s us at a very core level of our being.

Anyway, I think you’re kind of fighting the social stucture itself if we don’t shun the naughty. It’s kind of how we got here. Live and let live is great and all, but we’re social creatures, and the bad of that comes with the good of it.

Darryl,
I would adopt the slightly hostile tone of using only your last name too, but you don’t post it. If you think my appealing to people for empathy is wimpy, well that says something about you, not me.

She was not beating her kid, she was shouting at him. While I don’t condone that and it is generally inappropriate, it was happening within a huge context that we’re not privy to. What was happening in the moments, weeks and years before the camera started rolling we don’t know. I don’t think that parents “own” their children either. But children don’t own their parents as well. Parents do not become indentured servants the moment their kids are born. Parents have a right to their privacy and their objectionable behavior should be corrected in ways that don’t go way past the level of their offense.

I raised the most difficult, challenging daughter of any family I ever met. I came close to exploding several times, but I respected her rights as she grew to merit them by accepting the concurrent responsibilities. I also expected her to respect my rights in return. She has grown into a difficult, challenging adult whom I very much enjoy knowing. As big a pain-in-the-neck as she can be, she would never do to anyone what was done by this video, because she has that wimpy quality called empathy.

Siamang-

Happy birthday to you,
happy birthday to you,
you’re named for a monkey,
and you evolved from one, too!

(apologies to C. Darwin)

Hope you have a great day!

Michael, you poor fella. I sympathize. Your mother’s a bitch, and your dad’s a coward, and we’ve all seen the proof.

This video is being used to (falsely) “show” atheists that theists act like “crazy zealots” yet you resort to the same tactics. How are you any better than the mother in the video? What do you have to offer that is so much more rational?

You guys sound like fundamentalists! Jeez!

No, you do because you like to yell and scream and hurl insults.

Dan Harlow,

No screaming and yelling here, that’s on the video. I remind you of what you said:

the mother HAS A RIGHT to be upset at her underage child. After all it’s HER CHILD and she can raise him ANYWAY SHE SEES FIT.

Notice the capitals–who’s yelling?

The mother has a right to be upset? Really? Expand on that idea if you would. And what’s “underage” got to do with it? He has no right to his beliefs? He’s got a brain, but he shouldn’t use it because of his mother’s screwy ideas?

It’s her child therefore she can raise him anyway she sees fit? He’s a slave to her religion until he’s 18 because she bore him, is that it? He ought to be forced to be a hypocrite by going through the motions when he’s at church? Taking the communion when he doesn’t believe; reciting creeds that he thinks are bogus?

Sounds barbaric to me. This kid may have more on the ball than both his parents. It’s tough being a teenager when your parents push you around, should he have to suffer with threats for thinking for himself?

Dan Harlow,

The definition of privacy is changing, amigo. Putting that aside, do you think that this woman would berate her son this way in public? Of course not. Why do you think that hiding this abuse is her right of privacy? A lot of bad things go on in private. Many of them we the people stick our noses into as a matter of law. Can you imagine a law that forbids a parent from doing what this parent did? I can.

So, you think that this mother was “expressing her opinion?” What a gift you have for understatement. She was verbally abusing, threatening, and blackmailing this poor fella. I don’t know how you were raised, but in my home that was not what we’d call “expressing an opinion.”

And for your edification, in my home my kids are free to believe whatever they choose. They know my views, but I respect them enough to afford them the dignity that was afforded me.

Daryl,
Thanks for your clarification. Call me Richard or Richard Wade if there’s another Richard being discussed, such as Dawkins.

I’m in complete agreement with you that the dysfunction we witnessed here is widespread in America, and that we are far too violent in both our physical and verbal ways of expression. I also hope you are right that our general sensitivity about such things as domestic violence will continue to increase. There’s still a lot of it. As a counselor I often would have to report it.

What I will harp on one last time is that the violence done to one person in the video is nothing compared to the violence done to the whole family by the video.

It seems like I came in here and spoiled everybody’s fun by being the first on this thread to say that it’s cruel to gain fun and/or a sense of self righteousness from the pain and humiliation of this family. Now people are annoyed with me and are justifying their behavior with side issues. Okay, never mind. I said my piece. I think you’re all still good people, and I mean it. I’m no one to condemn anybody else.

Dan Harlow,

You asked these questions:

How are you any better than the mother in the video? What do you have to offer that is so much more rational?

I gave these answers:

in my home my kids are free to believe whatever they choose. They know my views, but I respect them enough to afford them the dignity that was afforded me.

If you didn’t want my views, why did you ask. Oh, I get it–that was rhetoric! My, but you are clever!

The rest of your diatribe does not merit a response. You’re getting overheated. Perhaps we should quit on this subject.

The rest of your diatribe does not merit a response. You’re getting overheated. Perhaps we should quit on this subject.

Okay.

Daryl,

Please forgive my overreaction. I can put myself in this families shoes. I wonder what this video will mean for this family and for Michael?

Not a problem. Scenes like these upset us. They push our buttons. The atheism issue can be beside the point. We jump on our personal pain soap boxes and start arguing past each other, maybe because we’re actually arguing with somebody from our past. For folks like myself who grew up in alcoholic families, the buttons are huge and the pain is severe. Some of that scene was dreadfully familiar. It’s one of the reasons I became a family counselor. It’s also one of the reasons years later I finally quit.

Speculating on what the aftermath of the video will mean for them is risky because we just don’t know them well enough, but what would not surprise me would be large doses of a sense of betrayal for everyone. The mother might feel betrayed by her son’s decision and doubly betrayed by being candidly filmed and exposed. The son might feel betrayed by her angry reaction, her forbidding of Christmas presents, and later by the negative reaction from his religious schoolmates. The father faces possible accusations of betrayal for not coming to the side of either of them, and he in turn might feel betrayed for being punished for just trying to survive in an angry family. If the camera was operated by a younger sibling he or she is gonna get it, and could feel betrayed by the older brother for starting it all, as well as by the family system that is so full of anger. The possibilities are endless and not very pretty. Betrayal is one of he most destructive things in a family. In the unlikely event that the video starts them on a path that eventually leads them to a better set of relationships, it will be only after a long and very bad setback first. I wouldn’t bet money on a racehorse that starts by running the wrong way.

…and no more Easter baskets either, Michael.

Think about it man.

Yes, GnosticUnrest, several people here understand very well what you are describing. While you may have taken a different escape route, many are refugees from families like this, or worse.