All in all it was a fight billed as a bloody battle to the death, and what I saw was four arthritic midgets wearing giant padded boxing gloves swing and miss each other for a boring half hour.

LOL, good analogy

Darryl said,

May 10, 2007 at 2:34 pm

I question the whole approach of the Christians in this debate, and I think that honest Christians ought to also. Here is a comment I posted elsewhere that I think bears repeating here:

I previously commented upon the topic of the low turn-out at the day of prayer event, and my primary point was that Christians don’t really believe that prayer works. Along the same lines it also occurs to me that they don’t believe in the gospel message either. According to the Apostle Paul, Christians preach the message of Christ, the holy spirit acts upon them by faith, and viola–we’ve got a rebirth! It’s the preaching of the gospel story that is the “word of God” that acts upon the unbeliever, not logical arguments of the theistic kind. But, I’ll let the man speak for himself:

For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with the wisdom of human eloquence, so that the cross of Christ might not be emptied of its meaning. The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the learning of the learned I will set aside.” Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. (I Corinthians ch. I)

Paul’s argument cannot be more clear: My message is the gospel, not the wisdom of the world. Why? Because the wisdom of the world is not sufficient to come to the knowledge of God—it takes the gospel. The wisdom of the world in the form of theistic arguments was not a part of the Apostles’ preaching; it entered into the Church’s tradition from the outside, owing to the natural process of syncretism and the later rediscovery in the West of the Greek philosophers.

Now, before you Christians go scurrying to your Bibles with joy in your hearts because you’re primed to defeat the infidel, allow me to preempt your attack. Yes, I’m aware of such passages as these:

The heavens declare the glory of God; And the firmament shows his handiwork. (Psalm 19:1)

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. (Romans ch. 1)

Let us consider Paul’s statement to the church at Rome. This passage is often quoted as an example of the Cosmological Argument for God’s existence. First of all, notice that these words of Paul are being addressed not to infidels, but to Christians. Paul is not setting an example here for how to argue to unbelievers. Secondly, notice who it is that Paul says is making the theistic argument to the infidels—it is God himself, not Christians. Furthermore, it is God–not making theistic arguments using language–but letting his work speak for himself.

Do Christians really believe in the power of the gospel to convert the infidel? If they do, then why do they contradict the Apostle Paul and try to convince us using theistic arguments? Mr. Comfort’s claim that he will present undeniable scientific proof that God exists is a wasted effort according to the Apostle Paul—it is the wisdom of the world that God has made foolish. If that which may be known about God is clearly revealed by what God has made, then why do Christians keep pestering us with their theistic arguments when God has spoken from Heaven? Is the gospel impotent? Is Paul wrong? If Paul is correct, then you Christians need to back off with the rhetoric; if he’s incorrect, then you folks need to come over to our side of the fence.

That was excellent

Centuries from now there will be two warring sects, the banana cult and the coke can cult. Sprung from a common partnership in the dim past, Saint Comfort’s and Saint Cameron’s disciples parted ways during the Great Produce/Product Metaphor Rift when they couldn’t agree on which was the dumber metaphor. Bloodshed will be common. The people will despair that there will ever be peace. Then one day a man will appear with a new metaphor, one that re-unites all again. A mega-moronic metaphor that is so dumbfoundingly dumb, so stupendously stupid that all the other silly similes will fade into oblivion. Prophesied long before in vague mystical hints, the mother of all asinine analogies and addled allegories will will have something to do with………..BAGELS!!

ROTFL

Not that I think it would have made much difference. From the little bit we did see it was pretty clear that Brian/Kelly acted like immature jerks the whole time while Cameron/Comfort were just polite idiots. Both sides can do a lot better than those four.

Agreed

Mriana said,

May 15, 2007 at 12:01 pm

Pascal’s Wager is flawed. I say this, because it seems to me in what he has to say is out of self-gratification (or fear, not sure which). It is not from the heart.

To believe something just so you can get that reward is a bit selfish IMHO, and the belief is not true belief or even from the heart. One can plug in any philosophy or religion and get the same result- self-gratification.

To believe something to avoid punishment (out of fear) is not true belief either. It is an attempt to avoid a consequence that may or may not be real.

The Good Sumaritan did what he did without any thought as to his consequences and he did it from the heart. MLK Jr. did what he did for a goal that was to better society, but he took no heed to the consequences he would endure along the way, BUT he did it from the heart. Gandhi, also took no concern for the consequences in his humanitarian efforts. Although I’m sure he was elated to receive the nick “Great Soul” (Mahatma was not his original name), he had no expectation of such a thing nor did he expect to be a great soul that lived on in history books and the hearts of many an Indian and others.

There are many more who believed and did things from the heart, thus they truly believed in what they were saying and doing in the persuit of bettering society as a whole and helping people. Although many were religious and believed in a god, gaining Heaven, Brahman, Nirvahna, or alike was not in their expectations of their beliefs or goals. They did what they did out of the goodness of their hearts and did non-selfish acts without any expectations of reward or punishment.

Thus, when any philosophy/religion is applied to Pascal’s Wager it becomes flawed, because it is out of the desire for that uncertain reward to avoid punishment. Even Pascal admits it is uncertain, but a better bet because he believes it is a win-win deal, which is a selfish wager, IMHO.

If you want to believe in God, Atman, or Buddha fine, but believe from your heart and do good things for humanity out of the goodness of your heart, not with expectations of any reward or punishment, because it is what is in your heart that matters more than anything else.

Well said!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1229854964003619354&q=nightline+face-off&total=30&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=8

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6382436755066123640&q=nightline+face-off&total=30&start=20&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=6

11 – Yes, people are flaky and shallow when they talk about God’s plans. I don’t think God ever plans for things to go wrong. He knows that things will go wrong ever since the Fall (sin entered the world – Creation fell from perfection).

12 – God loves bin Laden, and gives Bin Laden all the same benefits that he gives everyone else. He will let history play itself out, and then reveal His glory at the end. He’s in no hurry.

9 – See Christianthinktank dot com by a Glenn something or other about the Canaanites. It’s good!

5 – Man was allowed to seek for truth outside of God. And God is able to bring man back to the truth. Man had a way out if he wanted to break off a harmonious relationship with God, and man chose that route. “If you love someone, set them free. If they come back to you, they are yours. If they don’t, they were never really yours in the first place.”