Pathfinder– What an interesting service… do you know the people weren’t standing because they knew God didn’t do it? Or was there another reason? It seems really odd to me the entire congregation wouldn’t stand for any of those things the pastor mentioned. Maybe they were just waiting for someone else to stand up first… or something like that.
– Friendly Atheist

In my case, I wasn’t standing because I knew that there was no divine intervention in my life. However, there was some circumstantial evidence pointing towards the conclusion that no one thought they had been “touched by god” in any manner.

My grandmother’s church is intensely focused on the social aspects of Christianity – all of the members are treated as if they were extended family – so I doubt it was simply a case of shyness on their part.

I got the impression while sitting there (I can’t really substantiate it much more than that, I wasn’t able to observe everyone very well) that most people thought it would be a bit presumptuous to claim that the creator of life, the universe, and everything – all the billions of galaxies and billions of billions of stars and billions of billions of billions of billions of atoms, quarks, gluons, and all the other fundamental particles – had stopped by and helped them pass a math test simply because they asked nicely.

Also, not a single person spoke out or even moved drastically until the pastor exhorted everyone to stand. It seems to me that no one felt very confident that a god had any part in their lives, and they didn’t want to draw attention to that lack of confidence. It was more that they thought the whole of their lives had been “touched” in some manner, but never any specific instance.

Perhaps I should have been more specific when I wrote my last post, they were certainly not secular in any sense of the word – they still had faith. But they had compartmentalized their faith into areas where science and logical thought could not reach it, and no one had the lack of intelligence to claim that some supreme being had helped them in a specific instance – they knew that such a claim would be easily disproven or discredited with but a few moments of thought.

Bill Jakeway said,

June 11, 2007 at 2:04 am

Mriana,

Why would you assume that I have not studied psychology and have not worked in a related field?

Because you want to take the one little section of the DSM-IV and believe that no religious delusions are part of a Dx. It’s only cultural in that it was forced into their ancestors and taken to extreme, but I won’t go into that history.

But since you bring up the question, although some mental health professionals will say that there is considerable overlap between psychosis and intense religiosity, I’m sure you would agree that even more believe that religion is a legitimate cultural issue that should not be pathologized.

No, I would not. I have not found that and I did my studies and my field work in the Bible Belt. The belief is insanity is the extreme of the norm. A belief in God is normal, just as a non-belief is too, but it’s the extremes of religiousity that is focused on.

According to the DSM (which you seem to enjoy quoting), “Ideas that may appear to be delusional in one culture … may be commonly held in another” (p. 306). Thus, it appears that a belief which would otherwise be considered delusional should not be considered such if it is commonly held within a particular culture.

You know, in all the years of study I have had and the field work, this has never been shown to me in the DSM-IV. I hardly see how the extreme is a cultural thing and not a mental illness though. A Schizophrenic who goes around talking religious insantiy is told to stop, as well as told why they need to stop and it’s not because they are imposing religion. It’s part of their delusion.

Perhaps in all of the debate of mental health and religion, it is just that the wrong questions have been asked. Perhaps it is the atheists that are the insane ones.

That is your belief.

You adopt a belief system which effectively prevents them from validly separating reality from a drug dream, and then claim that you can.

You have no idea what I adopt. In all reality, it is an external stimilus that triggers a chemical reaction in the brain. It can be anything that causes awe, wonder and the feeling transcendence- nature, a new born baby, music (including church music) art, the list goes on and on. This chemical reaction, generally located in the amygdala and frontal lobes, but other places in the brain too produce a natural opiate in the brain, causing these feelings of awe, wonder, and transcence. It has nothing to do with a deity, but rather the individual’s interpretation of those feelings.

Further, neurological research indicates that a particular part of the brain is connected to religious experiences.

This does not mean there is a god part of the brain. God is a human concept and nothing more. In this respect, you are talking a cultural and VERY human interpretation of these experiences caused by the parts of the brain that triggers the excess amount of chemicals that cause feelings.

After all, most atheists seem to suffer from delusions of grandeur, convinced that they hold the keys to humanity’s march toward utopia. They are also quite happy to embrace programs to “improve” humanity to suit their own purposes – hardly a coincidence, one would have to suggest, that the most repressive regimes of recent days have all been formulated along atheistic, humanist principles.

To me, your ideas concerning atheists and Humanists sound like nothing more than anger because they do not accept your god. Humanist ideas are not repressive or oppressive, but for the human. The focus is on the human and what they can do. I have yet to find a deity involved with what humans do with, to, and for each other. Few Christians give the human any credit in their achievements, but chalk ALL the success to an invisible and supernatural deity.

One can only hope that the possible link between atheism and mental illness is examined honestly before countless others suffer needlessly.

Again, I think this anger because you can not accept that humans can stand on their own two feet without a belief in the supernatural. It seems to me you rather bash Humanists/atheists for this belief that humans can do many things on their own instead of relying on the supernatural. I believe a humanistic approach to life is truly sane, more sane than sitting back, praying and doing nothing on your own to change things.

This does not mean I condemn the Christian who prays and then gets off their butts and gets moving to make a change. I applaud them for doing something to make a change. Prayer/meditation can be very healthy IF the human gets off their butts and does something to help make that change. This is a rational Christian IMO.

I will once again repeat the words of Bishop Spong that he sent me in a letter once:

“Humanism is not anti-Christian or anti-God. It is through the human that we experience the Holy the Other. The Divine is the ultimate depth of the human.”

Like Spong, I do not describe my god, I experience it through love, compassion, and reason. It is in all of us as a drive that keeps us going and gives us hope to make a change/difference. There is no gender, form, of matter to it, because it is very much like the wind. You see the wind via the trees and feel it on your skin. Love, compassion, and reason for one’s fellow human, nature, and animals, is how you see my human concept of god, which is in us all and in everything on earth. This is not supernatural, but very natural. It is also non-theistic and does not need any religious text to affirm it, but science via the Human sciences can confirm it is there and is a natural part of every human being.

I look at what is in people’s hearts and from that, I get an idea of their disposition and how they feel about themselves and others. Those who do not love themselves are filled with hate for others. Think about it.

I feel sorry for people who hate so much that they cannot love themselves and I pity you because I sense so much loathing from you of those who do not believe in your deity. It’s very sad. Maybe one day you will tap into the love, compassion, and reason that is inside you somewhere.

Why would you assume that I have not studied psychology and have not worked in a related field? My 2+2 comment was philosophical, no psychological.

But since you bring up the question, although some mental health professionals will say that there is considerable overlap between psychosis and intense religiosity, I’m sure you would agree that even more believe that religion is a legitimate cultural issue that should not be pathologized.

According to the DSM (which you seem to enjoy quoting), “Ideas that may appear to be delusional in one culture … may be commonly held in another” (p. 306). Thus, it appears that a belief which would otherwise be considered delusional should not be considered such if it is commonly held within a particular culture.

Perhaps in all of the debate of mental health and religion, it is just that the wrong questions have been asked. Perhaps it is the atheists that are the insane ones.

Think about it. Here you have a belief system that presumes the non-existence of a God but also that the “mind” is nothing more than neurological impulses in physical tissue. Yet at the same time, this very organ that generates these impulses is supposed to be able to independently verify those signals. You adopt a belief system which effectively prevents them from validly separating reality from a drug dream, and then claim that you can.

This certainly suggests a significant cognitive dissonance worthy of concern.

Further, neurological research indicates that a particular part of the brain is connected to religious experiences. Perhaps atheists are the product of a genetic deficiency or disorder – and if so, one can only wonder what else is wrong with them. After all, most atheists seem to suffer from delusions of grandeur, convinced that they hold the keys to humanity’s march toward utopia. They are also quite happy to embrace programs to “improve” humanity to suit their own purposes – hardly a coincidence, one would have to suggest, that the most repressive regimes of recent days have all been formulated along atheistic, humanist principles.

One can only hope that the possible link between atheism and mental illness is examined honestly before countless others suffer needlessly.

But again, you bring up issues that are far from the intent of this thread.

Sorry, Mriana, different Pathfinder, but it seems as if he has a good friend ^.^

Thanks. I try to be.

I have something new to share from my visit to my grandmother’s church this morning. The pastor there preached a sermon (entitled “Rise!”) where she called upon everyone who had been “touched and healed directly by God” to stand.

No one did.

She tried a second time, calling upon students who had felt “the hand of God” in their coursework, if they had passed a test by “the grace of God” (It’s the sunday after high school graduations here, so the sermon was about everyone who was graduating, me included).

No one yet again.

She tried once more with those who had “felt the lord calling them to witness” or something like that.

Still no one.

She finally gave up and picked the most general characteristics possible (“if you’ve ever been touched by the lord’s grace”), and even then had to flat-out tell everyone to stand.

The congregation was nonplussed, but I take this to be a rather encouraging event; these people showed that they did not think that “the lord our savior” was the source of all of the good things in their lives, there were only natural causes for everything that has happened to them. Be it the doctors that helped heal them, or the hard work of the people themselves as they pulled through their tough times, none of them thought to thank the invisible sky fairy for everything they did.

And that is a wonderful thing. It is a sign that people are finally waking up from the collective delusion that has been passed down for thousands of years, a sign that people are finaly thinking. It is my fondest hope that this trend continues, and that future children will no longer be brainwashed into believing legends, fables, and lies so that the professional cons called “clergy” can make a living.

Bill Jakeway said,

June 10, 2007 at 2:41 am

So you would be equally saying that atheism “can be” the manifestation of something seriously emotionally wrong with a person? I guess I don’t get your correlation.

The DSM-IV does not cover atheism as a symptom of mental illness. However, if you look up my example of Schizophrenia you will see that religious delusions and visions of granduer (ie “I’m Jesus Christ”) can be symptoms of the illness.

Either way, you and Hemant *did* come across that way to me …

That’s fine, but I stand by my conclusion based on my education of mental illness. Eating to live is one thing, living to eat is another.

Extremism is not inheritantly wrong, because what is, and is not, extremism is an opinion. You probably would classify me as an extremist in some (if not all) of my beliefs, but that would not be result of something seriously wrong with me, nor should I be deemed to possess a personality disorder.

I never said there was something wrong with you, but an extreme of anything is a bad thing. I’m sure you have heard it daid “all things in moderation”. Besides, it would be unethical for my to Dx someone over the internet and secondly, in my state one has to have a doctrit degree in psychology to give an actual Dx.

Would you agree that truth is eternal? Or can truth change? Will not 2+2 always equal 4 when personality disorders are present or not?

No insult intended, but you have obviously not studied psychology and have not worked in the field.

I would also like to offer my condolences, Mriana, I was lucky enough to be raised in a (relatively) liberal family. I can’t imagine what it would have been like to be in your position.

Pathfinder? My collegue in Trek fanfic? If that’s you, “HI!” Glad to see you. If not, sorry, it’s easy to confuse people. To tell the truth, it’s hell on earth. My family can not see the damage they are doing to themselves and others. My aunt frets and prays so much, that she has bleeding ulcers- yes, we are suppose to turn it over to the Lord, so she says. She felt guilty for not praying for my family after nearly dying from bleeding ulcers and getting 3 rounds of blood pumped into her and a little more than two weeks in the hospital on a feedbag because she could not keep food down. She deathly pale and sicker than a dog and SHE worries about praying? GEEZE! I say take a break and get some rest! Maybe take a Zoloft for the anxiety.

Let’s not get into my mother’s problems. She gets upset because I am involved with things she does not agree with, based on HER religious ideology, yet she relies on my for social things. My support of Obama for pres and lack of support of the Shrub is a great example. It’s un Christian not to support the pres and Obama does not meet her religious standards and therefore I should not participate in any of his campaign stuff.

Alas, if I were to tell them I don’t believe, they would climb the walls and have a conniption. Even if I tried to soften the blow and give them a partial truth by comparing myself to Bishop Spong. They would consider him an atheist and still climb the walls. It would not soften the blow for them in anyway. They’d blame education at a secular college and the Episcopal Church. It has nothing to do with either.

I myself have no horror stories to tell concerning religious people. I believe because I come across as a person with a strong personality people do not approach me as they would some. Becoming a non believer has been a slow process for me. I had little religious instruction as a child and while coming from a family with a Southern Baptist mother (she kept her beliefs for the most part in the closet until her death) and a for the most part absent father who was Presbtyn. Except for a short period of church and Sunday school appearances I had no religious experience as a child. I was able to grow up and form my own opinions.

I see extremeists in both religious and non religious people. I can only speak for myself but I think we would all like to see everyone at some middle ground. I would like this world to be a place where people can feel comfortable expressing their beliefs and non beliefs and be accepted for those beliefs. After all that is what America is supposed to be about isn’t it? Unfortunately, the radicals on both side of this agruement make it difficult to be able to do that. Maybe some day if not in my life time but my childrens or grandchildrens.