Bottom line for me, (say I’m a bigot or whatever) I am a Christian and therefore I cannot agree that being gay is a good thing. That does not mean I hate gays, my best friend in high school is gay and I still consider him a friend.

The Bible says that being gay is wrong, and whatever the current accepted behaviours, the Bible is my guide to right and wrong so I’m going to side with it. I believe God has a darned good reason for what is in the Bible and we ignore it only to pay the price years down the line. Needless to say I do not believe in a “gay gene”

What about the slippery slope argument?

If we allow for gay marriage, why not polygymy(or even beastiality)? Is there any rational reason to believe that a child is worse off with two mothers plus a father? Or vice-versa?

I’m with you there Polly.

That’s just me “coming out of the closet,” I know it’s probably not going to convince anyone of anything. Though I say I don’t hate gays, many will probably say I do, but that’s your own opinion.

Religion should have no say in two adults who want to have a contractual marriage under the law. That is an entirely civil matter, a civil right that should be equally available to all adults.

There are a number of religious groups that either outright perform gay marriages or in some way bless gay unions, even in places where those aren’t legally protected. Not all religions are based in bigotry and prejudice.

Incidently, Denis, I got a copy of your original comment and the first version linked to the site you got it from (http://www.preservemarriage.ca/eng/links.htm#FRANCE-REPORT). The site is called Preserve Marriage and the subtitle is Protect children’s rights, and in the case of this site, it appears the only right they are concerned with is that children have the right to straight parents. The summary was typed up in English by a member of the site, not by a government agency. Among the pages on that site, I found a fake child’s testimony about growing up with two fathers: Emily might ask: I thought politicians were supposed to protect me. Why did they let two men who are sexually attracted to each other deprive me of my birth right to a mother? Did they ever ask themselves how I might feel? Clearly a non-biased site.

You seem to be saying that the English translation of the French report provided on protectmarriage.ca has been falsified or is otherwise incorrect? Have you seen any evidence to make you think this? That same site also links to the full report on the National Assembly’s website and, given a cursory look at the text quoted above, the translation seems accurate to me.

The fact that a group who opposes same-sex marriage referenced the French report has no bearing on the point I am making. Also, other articles or arguments made on that website are totally unrelated to the content of the French report or the fact that it contains secular arguments opposing same-sex marriage.

I admit to knowing little about French politics, but google has lead me to believe that the country is being run by a conservative person who was elected despite a majority of the French believing in legalizing gay marriage, meaning they must have voted on other issues.

Whether the government in power was politically right or left has no bearing on my point. The question I was originally addressing was whether secular arguments could be made by those who oppose same-sex marriage. I believe this report provides evidence that such arguments do exist.

in the case of this site, it appears the only right they are concerned with is that children have the right to straight parents.

further it also suggests that single-parent/new partner households can never be adequate for a childs needs – the continual insistence on a childs right to have access to each biological parent of each sex. maybe the ideal, but certainly not the practise of many. by this reasoning, should a child be removed from a happy home that was begun with a straight couple, but where later one of the parents ‘came out’? should we force straight couples to stay together because of the rights of the child and despite any other relationship problems?

however, i don’t see the issue of whether a gay couple should have the right to raise children is an absolute consideration in whether to give them equal rights in marriage status. most couples i know (gay or straight) do not base a marriage decision on whether they wish to procreate or not; rather to have their relationship recognised by society and law and to gain financial and legal protection for their relationship in the form of benefits, facilities and rights. for a couple of any sexual persuasion, without the status of marriage, their relationship can still be interferred with by family members who do not approve – ie, in questions of medical treatment and death with a non-existent/disputed will.

child rearing is already practised by homosexual couples/singles by private arrangement and accident, procreation is not even a straight right as made clear by infertility problems, and the question of whether a gay couple should be allowed to adopt or receive fertility treatment is part of a broader discussion of whether we are willing to treat people as people rather than whether we are willing to acknowledge the status of relationships that already exist.

I actually went on a date (stress on ONE date) with a guy who told me that he didn’t believe in marriage for gays (not something I hadn’t heard before) or marriage for anyone who couldn’t have babies (something I have never ever heard before or since). Older people, he said, should have to call it something else.

It was a weird date. Very weird.

I admit to knowing little about French politics, but google has lead me to believe that the country is being run by a conservative person who was elected despite a majority of the French believing in legalizing gay marriage, meaning they must have voted on other issues.

btw, with the psychological debate going on here…..just wanted to add, before I got sick and had to leave school, I was getting a degree in Psych, and I saw some of the studies on families with same-sex parents (a professor who taught one of my classes was actually doing one)-and what they actually found was that children of gay unions are just as well adjusted in every way as kids of heterosexual unions, and they are no more likely to be gay than their counterparts. Just like the studies cited here. this stuff about it “destroying family” appears to be hogwash from what I saw. I’ll see if I can find the study online…..

I would like to point out that these studies were available to the French commission when they examined this matter and they found the studies to be less than convincing. If a largely secular state can find reasonable grounds to disallow same-sex marriage based on the best interests of the child, I find it rather disingenuous for you to write off the very same arguments as “hogwash” when they come from your political opponents on this side of the pond.

Here is a relevant quote from the English translation of the report itself:

During the Mission’s deliberations, it was not formally demonstrated that approving legal filiation with two fathers or two mothers has no effect on the building of the child’s identity. Martine Gross gave the Mission a list of studies on children brought up by persons of the same sex. The conclusion, based on these studies, was that there were no negative effects on children. These studies’ scientific basis and the representativeness of the population samples studied were widely criticized and disputed at the hearings. Few countries allow adoption of a child by two persons of the same sex, and legislation allowing this type of adoption is very recent and has, in fact, led to very few adoptions. The lack of objectivity in this area is blatant. The studies in question deal, rather, with children born of a heterosexual relationship and raised by a biological parent and his or her companion – a situation that is absolutely not comparable with the establishment of a dual same-sex filiation for a child from outside the couple.

My intent in pointing this out is not to persuade anyone regarding the question of same-sex marriage itself. Rather I hope to reiterate my earlier point that there are reasonable, secular arguments that can be made against SSM whether you agree with them or not.