What I Learned Over My Harry Potter Weekend (No Spoilers!)

I noticed a few Bible quotes and allusions in this HP book. Amusing. Also, several characters said “Thank God” when a loved-one escaped death. (Althought no-one said it was God’s will when a loved-one did get killed.) I don’t recall anything like this in the previous books.

I also found the comment “Of course this is happening inside your head. Why should that mean it’s not real?” to be interesting. I won’t say any more about that, because it would be a huge spoiler! I wonder if JKR was giving a measured response to criticism by fundies, and balancing it with some healthy skepticism.

Loved the book and the way it all worked out, but I still find myself wondering if JKR got a new editor after book 4 or if the publisher stopped trying to edit her because they knew the book would make a ton of money even unedited, because the last 3 books are much flabbier and less tightly structured than the first few (which is not to say that I didn’t love them, and I do realize that the topics became more mature and the story darker as the series went on!)….

Well, I bet she’s glad to be able to move onto something else now. What a huge accomplishment, to finish a seven-book series!

I’m also really surprised that the Goddies were out there picketing the book release.

WTF?!?!? Do they picket every non-Narnia fantasy release?

I’m glad there was no such nonsense at the big release party in LA… I might have cast a hex on them!

(BTW, I make a particularly frightening SNAPE!)

And Harry was all I can’t CHOOSE what to believe… I have to KNOW the facts… I have to find out. I can’t just believe that this person was all good… I have to KNOW.

That bit got me thinking and if you look deep enough you can find more in all the books. I’m thinking about writing something up on that.

I was at the same party as you and I didn’t see any religious people acting religious. I did some punk in line without a book yelling “He lives!” and I joked with my friends that while we thought it was a fake spoiler, maybe it was a guy trying to convert us. Why did the cops get mad at the Allah guy?

I got a much more atheistic view out of the book, overall, though of course they celebrate Christmas and Easter. I think you could view some of it as a hero myth, which Jesus fits, but all in all, I didn’t get a feeling any character was religious in the slightest.

Why would the cops get mad because someone mentioned Allah?

LOL! Hmm. One guess.

Just out of curiosity, how come blog atheists don’t go after Wiccans and Pagans? How come it’s always stunningly undifferentiated, generic “Christians” that are the focus of the stereotyping ire?

So you’re asking “how come we’re not bigger assholes to wiccans”?

Isn’t that a question rather like “when did you stop beating your wife?”

olvlzl, I never had a wiccan tell me I was going to hell. I’ve never seen a wiccan family disown their gay son. I’ve never had friends who were beaten as children because they didn’t believe what the coven taught.

Those things, and the general health of our home-grown democracy, sometimes causes one to point ire at the perpetrators of these crimes.

Unless you’re like our President, and when attacked you respond by attacking a completely unimplicated target.

In that case, yes, by all means, let’s persecute the Wiccans…. They never did anything to us… but why let that stop us?

I recall you have a personal distaste for Randi… isn’t he always debunking the Hocus-Pocus crowd? Doesn’t that count as “going after the Wiccans”? Let the skeptics debunk the swamis.

I’m an atheist, my goal is different. My goal is to help the religious to understand that they need to learn to deal better with people with different beliefs, atheists included.

I noticed a few Bible quotes and allusions in this HP book. Amusing. Also, several characters said “Thank God” when a loved-one escaped death. (Althought no-one said it was God’s will when a loved-one did get killed.) I don’t recall anything like this in the previous books.

I also found the comment “Of course this is happening inside your head. Why should that mean it’s not real?” to be interesting. I won’t say any more about that, because it would be a huge spoiler! I wonder if JKR was giving a measured response to criticism by fundies, and balancing it with some healthy skepticism.

Loved the book and the way it all worked out, but I still find myself wondering if JKR got a new editor after book 4 or if the publisher stopped trying to edit her because they knew the book would make a ton of money even unedited, because the last 3 books are much flabbier and less tightly structured than the first few (which is not to say that I didn’t love them, and I do realize that the topics became more mature and the story darker as the series went on!)….

Well, I bet she’s glad to be able to move onto something else now. What a huge accomplishment, to finish a seven-book series!

I found all this interesting as well.

olvlzl, I never had a wiccan tell me I was going to hell. I’ve never seen a wiccan family disown their gay son. I’ve never had friends who were beaten as children because they didn’t believe what the coven taught.

That’s true, Wiccans tend to be pretty laid back. However, I think the point he’s getting at (and I’ve noticed this too) is that some websites and groups (no, not this one! )will go on and on about how all religion is bad and then focus ONLY on Christianity, and act like ALL the Xtians are bad and are all the same. And I admit it’s frustrating to see stereotypes like that, even though I understand in the bible belt they to tend to fit a certain stereotype. But outside of it they are very diverse just like any group. Just like when a religious person (and I’ve heard plenty of non-Xtian religious person say this) says that all atheists are mean and horrible people-I hate hearing that too.

I’m an atheist, my goal is different. My goal is to help the religious to understand that they need to learn to deal better with people with different beliefs, atheists included.

That’s an admirable goal

anti-nonsense, Rowlings is on record as being, brace yourselves true unbelievers, a Christian.

I was surprised at the religious content of the book, though it was clear from the very beginning that there was some. Godparents, Christmas, … That she made her intentions in the last book with what is clearly a near death experience and a feature more than just a bit suggestive of resurrection, quite clear. I thought the book explained some of the things that have gone unsolved in the series rather well.

The fundamentalists who picked are jerks who are afraid of witches and wizards, or who are told to be. Considering how many people in the United States have read the books and the percentage of the country who profess to be Christians, it’s pretty clear that the majority of readers here are Christians.

These are good points. And it’s true, I’ve said this on here before, JK Rowling is Presbytyrian. That’s why it’s so hilarious the fundies go after her. Most Xtians I know love the Harry Potter books. I actually picked up several subtle religious overtones in the book, but along with a healthy skepticism. She’s pretty liberal from what I understand. The book was excellent.

Just out of curiosity, how come blog atheists don’t go after Wiccans and Pagans? How come it’s always stunningly undifferentiated, generic “Christians” that are the focus of the stereotyping ire?

Maybe because there aren’t as many stories in the media about what Wiccans are doing this week? For the record, though, just a week ago there was that “Homer in a field next to the pagan thingy” and everyone in the atheist blogosphere made fun of the pagans that were going to get their revenge with rain.

Also, I bet if you were to poll all the atheist blogosphere, you would find more former Christians than any other religion or, for that matter, people raised atheist. People talk about what they know. I think Christians, Muslims, Pagans, and Wiccans all equally believe silly things, but in my day to day life, one of those groups is much more likely to affect me personally and politically.

Also, while not all Christians believe X, Y, and Z, they are all using the same starting point. As I have a problem with that starting point, I do tend to lump them together, because all their conclusions based on said starting point are flawed.

anti-nonsense, Rowlings is on record as being, brace yourselves true unbelievers, a Christian.

And my father is on record as being a Catholic. Doesn’t mean he cares about it in the slightest, or knows anything (since his church as a child did all their masses in Latin). Do we have any idea how religious JKR is?

I’ll agree there was some vague Christ imagery, but much of the Christ imagery is really just generic literary hero archtype.

Do we have any idea how religious JKR is?

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/1999/1099-post-weeks.htm

http://www.accio-quote.org/articles/2000/1000-vancouversun-wyman.htm

Well, she’s a member of the church of Scotland and evidently cared enough to have her daughter baptized. In the second article she quotes that she is indeed a Christian who believes in God. just wondering, why does it matter? would it bother you if she was religious? would you consider her the same as Pat Robertson? Does a person have to be non-religious for you to respect them? Personally I don’t care. I pay attention to who the person is and what they do. some of the best attacks on the religious right have come from liberal believers who support secularism.

Christianity Today seems to think that the Harry Potter saga has turned into some kind of Christian allegory:

Something similar seems to have happened to J.K. Rowling. She began writing about wizards and quidditch and Bertie Botts Every Flavor Beans, and somewhere along the way, Christ began to whisper into the story.
And the whole world was listening.

All the talk about JKR’s religiosity cracks me up. Of course we’ll never know if she doesn’t choose to talk about it, but there are SO many people who are nominally religious or religuos for the sake of tradition, including a majority of Americans in my opinion, that just because she’s a member of a church or has her child baptized says absolutely nothing about her actual beliefs or dedication to the teachings of a church or to the teachings of the Bible, for that matter.

I thought you thought everyone was a bad egg.

You ever been damned to hell by a Quaker?

You know, Olvizi, I’ve never MET a Quaker. They’re vanishingly rare.

Met a hella lotta fundies, thought. All those things I list, damning to hell, splitting a family in two, beating a child for their unbelief, are things from my personal circle of friends.

So which am I likely to react to? People I know personally and their lives, or some Quaker that I’m sure I’d love if I met, but haven’t met.

Looking for Biblical symbolism in Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings is kind of like looking for faces in the clouds. With enough imagination you can see anything you want. Some of the symbolic allusions I’ve heard proposed are really a stretch worthy of an Olympic gymnast.

If you must see these works as anything more than a white hat/black hat western then it’s much easier to see a historical symbolism of the period just before World War II. Both stories center around the aftermath of an unfinished war where a great evil was put down but not destroyed. It is returning and now the children of those killed in the first war must take up the fight again.

Why not just enjoy a wonderfully told tale and forget about finding faces in the clouds?

HAHAHA yes i also drew a connection to fundies when i read that.. in fact as soon as Character 1 said that, I started to hate his guts. I’m so glad that Character 2 spazzed right after! too bad he/she ended up being wrong!

I will bring to bear the larger group of Christians who in my experience have unleashed nastiness and wielded political power sufficent to draw the negative attention of atheists.

Individuals bear responsibility for the evil that they do, people who don’t do rotten things aren’t responsible for those who do. If the majority of Christians in the United States were actively involved in evil doing then things would be a hell of a lot worse then they are now. Pretending that the majority of people who call themselves Christians are actively engaged in doing you wrong is not only vastly unrealistic and unjust, it’s paranoid.

As for those who do evil through politics, they’re only calling themselves Christians, they are actually worshipers of Mammon. Since Jesus warned that you can’t serve both God and Mammon, that would seem to be an acid test as to the genuineness of their profession. Authoritative, you might say.

If someone has done you wrong then why don’t you complain about that person instead of smearing an entire group? Doesn’t it kind of make sense?

Pretending that the majority of people who call themselves Christians are actively engaged in doing you wrong is not only vastly unrealistic and unjust, it’s paranoid.

Did I use the word “majority”?

No I didn’t. I said “I will bring to bear the larger group of Christians who in my experience have unleashed nastiness and wielded political power sufficent to draw the negative attention of atheists.”

I confine my criticism to that group of Christians who have done nastyness and wielded political power destructively. I think it is a minority group of Christians who have done this, but I do think that this minority is a larger group than the entire number of American Quakers, of which there are about 100,000 in the United States.

Please respond to the things I write, and not to the things you imagine I may be writing.

Well, she’s a member of the church of Scotland and evidently cared enough to have her daughter baptized. In the second article she quotes that she is indeed a Christian who believes in God. just wondering, why does it matter? would it bother you if she was religious? would you consider her the same as Pat Robertson? Does a person have to be non-religious for you to respect them? Personally I don’t care. I pay attention to who the person is and what they do. some of the best attacks on the religious right have come from liberal believers who support secularism.

I hope I didn’t come off as really caring one way or another about what religion JK is. I just think its funny that every time the Christians burn her books, we laugh over her Christianity, and yet I personally had no idea if she was actually religious or just a checks-the-box Christian. I was just speculating, based on how little religion is in the book.

I hope I didn’t come off as really caring one way or another about what religion JK is. I just think its funny that every time the Christians burn her books, we laugh over her Christianity, and yet I personally had no idea if she was actually religious or just a checks-the-box Christian. I was just speculating, based on how little religion is in the book.

Hi Jen, no, actually I didn’t think you did once I took a good look at what you said. I was just asking if it would matter to you but I probably didn’t phrase it right. Sorry if I sounded rude. I agree with what you said above. It is quite ironic isn’t it? I’ve scared many fundie Xtians by telling them she is one herself……..

Maria, as soon as I read that JKR was a fan of Jessica Mitford I knew she couldn’t be a bad egg.

Who is Jessica Mitford? Sorry, don’t know…..can you tell me please?

You know, Olvizi, I’ve never MET a Quaker. They’re vanishingly rare.

True enough, they are rare. I have met some. They are very nice, at least from my experience. They actually remind me a lot of the Bahai’s-another very peacful (and very persecuted, especially in the Middle East) religion. Does anyone here know any Bahais? Just curious, I know it’s off topic but just wanted to ask. I’ve met some and was pretty impressed by them-I went to a meeting with a friend who is Bahai. They knew my beliefs (or lack thereof) and didn’t seem to mind it. We had a mutual respect of one another.

Looking for Biblical symbolism in Harry Potter or The Lord of the Rings is kind of like looking for faces in the clouds. With enough imagination you can see anything you want. Some of the symbolic allusions I’ve heard proposed are really a stretch worthy of an Olympic gymnast.

If you must see these works as anything more than a white hat/black hat western then it’s much easier to see a historical symbolism of the period just before World War II. Both stories center around the aftermath of an unfinished war where a great evil was put down but not destroyed. It is returning and now the children of those killed in the first war must take up the fight again.

Why not just enjoy a wonderfully told tale and forget about finding faces in the clouds?

well said!

Maria- no worries, you did come off a little strong, but Dawkins knows I have here too, so believe me when I say there is no judgement. I do enjoy that she is a Christian, considering how the fundies have their underwear in a twist about those books converting their children to Satanism. I don’t care what religion she is myself; that said, if her books were really Jesus-y, I probably wouldn’t read them.

Re: the Quakers

The only Quaker I know is my aunt, who converted. This particular aunt switches religions on a fairly regular basis, which has always amused me. She never seems to be “regular” Christian, though, and she was raised as such.

There a few christian references throughout the HP series. However, there are also atheistic, Pagan and Buddhist themes are laced throughout the whole series as well. Especially the Buddhist themes. But here’s the rub. It doesn’t matter what faith or non-faith you’re from. Everyone will relate to the series, as they would any fiction. Why? Because it’s not about religious experience. There is no christian morality. There is no Pagan morality. There is no Muslim, Jew or Atheist morality. There’s only human morality. Regardless of what faith or non-faith, culture or ethnic background we come from, as humans we have the same experiences. We know love, loss, anger, confusion, deal with duality in our character, etc., etc. Anyone from any background can look at just about any piece of fiction and relate to it in one way or another. Theology/Mythology, they all have themes of human experiences because they were written by humans, laced with a bit of mysticism, idealism, supernaturalism and lots of metaphor to add flavor.

To be honest, there were less christian themes in the HP series than there were of a few other belief systems.