LOL, Mriana. How did I know you were going to come back to me with that? It seems I’m damned if I do, damned if I don’t.

You’ve come to know me well.

Personally I don’t give a damn if I get “credit” for what I do. What I care about is actually being a good person and actually making a difference in the world.

Now you almost sound like a Humanist.

It’s not about getting “credit” IMHO. Personally I don’t give a damn if I get “credit” for what I do. What I care about is actually being a good person and actually making a difference in the world. And if God can help me do that, then I’m more than happy to accept his help/grace/influence/etc.

I will take this as a statement that you believe in a works salvation by doing God’s will.

Well, you know what happens when you make assumptions…

Apparently you missed what I said about God’s grace. While as a Calvinist you might want to say that the faith part is by God’s grace and therefore it doesn’t count as a work, I go even further than that. IMHO, it’s all by grace, even the good works part. None of it is “earning”.

Seems pretty clear to me that the issue here is not “believing the right stuff” but “doing God’s will”.

I will take this as a statement that you believe in a works salvation by doing God’s will. Your quote of Mt. 7:21 along with your interpretation also confirm this thinking. However, Mt. 7:21 along with many texts such as James 2:14-26 and others make it clear that merely professing to have faith is quite different than actually possessing faith. Your paragraph on faith being a work is actually quite good and is true when applied to an Arminian. However, as a Calvinist that believes God through his grace gives the gift of faith by intervening and changing a person through regeneration (Eph. 2:4-5) it does not apply to my theological belief. Christ died for the elect only as described in Romans 8:29-30 and elsewhere. Seems to me the Jewish leaders of Jesus’s day were advocating a works righteousness and this was something he confronted them on in John 3:3 and John 6. Paul went on in Romans to sum up the gospel in chapter 3:

Romans 3:21-26 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Are you asserting that a law abiding unbeliever that has good ethical values will have eternal life?

I am asserting that it’s none of my business deciding who has “eternal life”; but I am also saying that people who obey the things Jesus commanded us to do are in fact “following Jesus” whether they know it or not. And I also recall that in Matthew 7:21 Jesus also said: “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Seems pretty clear to me that the issue here is not “believing the right stuff” but “doing God’s will”.

I also seem to recall Paul saying something like:

“It is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)”

That too seems pretty clear to me.

However, this theology would also include, and have as it starting point, faith in Jesus Christ for his atonement on the cross of Calvary for the sin debt of all who believe. This is not my theology, but it is Biblical theology and it is more important than just trying to get people to do good deeds. True good deeds and works follow when a person sincerely comes to Jesus in faith and repentance. My standing with Jesus is based on my faith in his atoning sacrifice and not my deeds of service. Forgiveness of sins (of which I have many) come through this faith.

Do you think your faith is necessary for Christ’s atonement to actually be effective? If so, wouldn’t this mean that Christ’s atonement was insufficient – that you have to complete his work through your faith? And then doesn’t this make faith just another “work” that you are doing to earn your salvation?

Personally I think God’s grace is given even when we can’t bring ourselves to believe in it – even when we can’t bring ourselves to believe in God. Otherwise it’s not grace.

May I ask, what do you rely on when you double check to see if you are actually “with Jesus?”

Check to see that you’re not just claiming his name, but actually doing what he said and doing as he did.

And if you find that your theology ends up placing you on the opposite side of a debate from Jesus (if you find yourself arguing the same point as the Pharisees for instance), then that’s pretty good evidence that you’re not “with Jesus” on that issue.

You said……
(I’m wondering why you would want to convert someone who already has those things with their worldview? Why would I need to? IMHO, such a person is already following the way of Jesus even if they call it something else (humanism for example). As Jesus himself said “Whoever is not against me, is with me.”)

Are you asserting that a law abiding unbeliever that has good ethical values will have eternal life?

You also said…..
(And yet here you are implying that getting people to share your theology is more important than inviting them to share in the good deeds Jesus told us to do. If that is the case, then you might want to double check whether you are actually “with Jesus” in the first place. He might have been talking to you in this passage.)

My “theology” would include obedience to the teaching of Jesus just as you affirm. However, this theology would also include, and have as it starting point, faith in Jesus Christ for his atonement on the cross of Calvary for the sin debt of all who believe. This is not my theology, but it is Biblical theology and it is more important than just trying to get people to do good deeds. True good deeds and works follow when a person sincerely comes to Jesus in faith and repentance. My standing with Jesus is based on my faith in his atoning sacrifice and not my deeds of service. Forgiveness of sins (of which I have many) come through this faith.

May I ask, what do you rely on when you double check to see if you are actually “with Jesus?”

You said, “As Jesus himself said “Whoever is not against me, is with me.” This quote is wrong…… The Bible quotes Jesus in Matthew 12:30 (ESV) “Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.” This is a totally different meaning.

That wasn’t the verse I was referring to Jazzy. Perhaps you need to read your Bible more thoroughly. In Luke 9:50 Jesus says just the opposite to the disciples, who were upset about people doing good things without being followers of Jesus. He tells the disciples to leave them alone since “Anyone who is not against you is for you.”

And funny how in the Matthew passage you mentioned, Jesus is speaking to the religious leaders, who are denouncing the good works he is doing because he doesn’t share their theology. And yet here you are implying that getting people to share your theology is more important than inviting them to share in the good deeds Jesus told us to do. If that is the case, then you might want to double check whether you are actually “with Jesus” in the first place. He might have been talking to you in this passage.

I don’t agree with all that Dobson believes, he and his organization are not thugs.

Anyone who beats his dog, and brags about it, is a thug in my book.

Has your Emergent Church group edited the Bible with a post-modern spin?