Comments on: Questions for Atheists: Mixed Atheist/Theist Relationships http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/ by Hemant Mehta Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:32:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1.3 By: monkeymind http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-105147 monkeymind Sat, 22 Dec 2007 00:00:09 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-105147 Sorry, Julie, you got some blowback from an unrelated discussion. I don't think Mike or Pither were claiming that their definition IS what faith means in some essential sense. Words don't have meanings outside of how they are collectively used, and often opposing sides will struggle over "ownership" of a word. Part of being precise with language is knowing how different audiences are likely to respond to a given word, and if you are using a connotation peculiar to some sub-group, to make this clear implicitly or explicitly. I think you will find that "faithless" and "unfaithful" are used mainly pejoratively, except for some attempts to redefine "faithless" (along with "godless") as positive, much like gays redefined "queer". When I see the word faithless used in this context, it doesn't bother me at all and I don't feel the need to point out the "dictionary" definition to people who are obviously using the word in a different and perfectly legitimate way. Sorry about the grammatical error in my post. You may take points off for the typo if you like. Sorry, Julie, you got some blowback from an unrelated discussion. I don’t think Mike or Pither were claiming that their definition IS what faith means in some essential sense. Words don’t have meanings outside of how they are collectively used, and often opposing sides will struggle over “ownership” of a word. Part of being precise with language is knowing how different audiences are likely to respond to a given word, and if you are using a connotation peculiar to some sub-group, to make this clear implicitly or explicitly.

I think you will find that “faithless” and “unfaithful” are used mainly pejoratively, except for some attempts to redefine “faithless” (along with “godless”) as positive, much like gays redefined “queer”. When I see the word faithless used in this context, it doesn’t bother me at all and I don’t feel the need to point out the “dictionary” definition to people who are obviously using the word in a different and perfectly legitimate way.

Sorry about the grammatical error in my post. You may take points off for the typo if you like.

]]> By: Julie http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-105137 Julie Fri, 21 Dec 2007 23:36:57 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-105137 Monkeymind, I doubt you'll look back here, since this thread has disappeared over the horizon, but the "if" part of your your comment is exactly the point. If one sees one's duty as working for the destruction of the US, then faith "means" something else, according to the way you're interpreting it. Faith itself doesn't get to pick its target. People can have faith in lots of different things. Pither's point was that faith can be inherently positive, but it can't. A person can be faithless or unfaithful only relative to another term. I'm no prescriptivist, but I like to be precise with language. By the way, you messed up your subject / verb agreement in your first sentence. Put that in your hackles and smoke it. Monkeymind, I doubt you’ll look back here, since this thread has disappeared over the horizon, but the “if” part of your your comment is exactly the point. If one sees one’s duty as working for the destruction of the US, then faith “means” something else, according to the way you’re interpreting it. Faith itself doesn’t get to pick its target. People can have faith in lots of different things. Pither’s point was that faith can be inherently positive, but it can’t.

A person can be faithless or unfaithful only relative to another term.

I’m no prescriptivist, but I like to be precise with language.

By the way, you messed up your subject / verb agreement in your first sentence. Put that in your hackles and smoke it.

]]> By: monkeymind http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104663 monkeymind Fri, 21 Dec 2007 02:04:43 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104663 <blockquote>MikeClawson said, Agreed monkeymind. Didn’t we just have this conversation in the last thread I put up? :)</blockquote> There's glory for you! And by glory I mean, here we go again! :-)

MikeClawson said,

Agreed monkeymind. Didn’t we just have this conversation in the last thread I put up? :)

There’s glory for you!

And by glory I mean, here we go again! :-)

]]> By: monkeymind http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104662 monkeymind Fri, 21 Dec 2007 02:02:11 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104662 Julie - I don't see how Pither's definitions is all that different than the Merriam Webster definition: <blockquote>1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one’s promises (2): sincerity of intentions</blockquote> if one sees one's duty and promises as working for positive change in the world The meaning of faith can certainly <strong>not</strong> be restricted to "belief without evidence." I think you'll have considerable trouble explaining away the meanings of "faithless" and "unfaithful" if you do. Polysemy's a bitch, I know. Sorry for the sarcasm but linguistic prescriptivism really raises my hackles. Julie – I don’t see how Pither’s definitions is all that different than the Merriam Webster definition:

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one’s promises (2): sincerity of intentions

if one sees one’s duty and promises as working for positive change in the world

The meaning of faith can certainly not be restricted to “belief without evidence.” I think you’ll have considerable trouble explaining away the meanings of “faithless” and “unfaithful” if you do.

Polysemy’s a bitch, I know. Sorry for the sarcasm but linguistic prescriptivism really raises my hackles.

]]> By: Julie http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104654 Julie Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:46:27 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104654 <blockquote>Pither: Faith, when defined as a hopeful optimism and motivation to do what we think is right in spite of opposition or complacency.</blockquote> OK, monkeymind, but it still doesn't mean this! The point is that it was being redefined incorrectly here. Bring on whatever dictionary you like, and get as sarcastic with me as you please. I can totally take it.

Pither: Faith, when defined as a hopeful optimism and motivation to do what we think is right in spite of opposition or complacency.

OK, monkeymind, but it still doesn’t mean this! The point is that it was being redefined incorrectly here. Bring on whatever dictionary you like, and get as sarcastic with me as you please. I can totally take it.

]]> By: MikeClawson http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104651 MikeClawson Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:42:56 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104651 <blockquote>Hooboy, I am so tired of the “my abridged dictionary has the final word on all the possible denotations and connotations of word X” thing. Look it up in the OED and let’s talk.</blockquote> Agreed monkeymind. Didn't we just have this conversation in the last thread I put up? :)

Hooboy, I am so tired of the “my abridged dictionary has the final word on all the possible denotations and connotations of word X” thing. Look it up in the OED and let’s talk.

Agreed monkeymind. Didn’t we just have this conversation in the last thread I put up? :)

]]> By: Stephanie http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104641 Stephanie Fri, 21 Dec 2007 01:07:17 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104641 Well, I suppose I'll join the fray. Eighteen years ago, I met a cute Atheist. At the time I was a liberal and rather tepid, CEO sort of Christian. We never really talked about it and we certainly never argued, but I would bring his Atheism up every so often because I was fascinated by what could fill the void left by belief. Years on and I still think nothing fills it, it's just that if you examine religious beliefs hard enough they get weathered down by evidence until finally there's nothing left. At least that's what I think happened to me. I still show up at a Unitarian church once in a great while, when I miss the community of faith. But that's about it, and I go alone even though the congregation welcomes Atheists. My husband won't set foot inside and we're both fine with that. That way he can make breakfast. :) Well, I suppose I’ll join the fray. Eighteen years ago, I met a cute Atheist. At the time I was a liberal and rather tepid, CEO sort of Christian. We never really talked about it and we certainly never argued, but I would bring his Atheism up every so often because I was fascinated by what could fill the void left by belief. Years on and I still think nothing fills it, it’s just that if you examine religious beliefs hard enough they get weathered down by evidence until finally there’s nothing left. At least that’s what I think happened to me.
I still show up at a Unitarian church once in a great while, when I miss the community of faith. But that’s about it, and I go alone even though the congregation welcomes Atheists. My husband won’t set foot inside and we’re both fine with that. That way he can make breakfast. :)

]]> By: monkeymind http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104613 monkeymind Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:41:49 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104613 Julie, my Merriam Webster lists this as the first definition of faith: <blockquote>1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions</blockquote> If you don’t like what faith means, well, that’s a different story. But that’s what it means! Julie, my Merriam Webster lists this as the first definition of faith:

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one’s promises (2): sincerity of intentions

If you don’t like what faith means, well, that’s a different story. But that’s what it means!

]]> By: monkeymind http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104612 monkeymind Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:29:09 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104612 Hooboy, I am so tired of the "my abridged dictionary has the final word on all the possible denotations and connotations of word X" thing. Look it up in the OED and let's talk. Hooboy, I am so tired of the “my abridged dictionary has the final word on all the possible denotations and connotations of word X” thing. Look it up in the OED and let’s talk.

]]> By: Julie http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104599 Julie Thu, 20 Dec 2007 23:06:58 +0000 http://friendlyatheist.com/2007/12/19/questions-for-atheists-mixed-atheistchristian-relationships/#comment-104599 Sorry, Mike, but I don't think you can redefine faith because you want to. Here's the definition from my Apple dictionary: 1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something. 2 strong belief in God or in the doctrines of religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof. Miko's definition is closer than Pither's according to the above. Hopeful optimism and do-gooding are not faith, although they may grow out of faith. Faith is not necessarily a positive quality, in the eyes of atheists, although in our society it has a positive connotation. Dispelling that connotation and looking objectively at the notion of faith, which IS belief without proof, is important. And that last paragraph is probably why I couldn't be in a relationship with a believer! Ha ha, I'm also an English teacher, by the way, so quibbling about words and definitions just comes naturally to me. And I think preciseness of language is crucial. If you don't like what faith means, well, that's a different story. But that's what it means! Sorry, Mike, but I don’t think you can redefine faith because you want to. Here’s the definition from my Apple dictionary:

1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something. 2 strong belief in God or in the doctrines of religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.

Miko’s definition is closer than Pither’s according to the above. Hopeful optimism and do-gooding are not faith, although they may grow out of faith. Faith is not necessarily a positive quality, in the eyes of atheists, although in our society it has a positive connotation. Dispelling that connotation and looking objectively at the notion of faith, which IS belief without proof, is important.

And that last paragraph is probably why I couldn’t be in a relationship with a believer! Ha ha, I’m also an English teacher, by the way, so quibbling about words and definitions just comes naturally to me. And I think preciseness of language is crucial.

If you don’t like what faith means, well, that’s a different story. But that’s what it means!

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