I stand corrected. *_* ::blush::

Karen said,

January 15, 2008 at 10:37 pm

That’s why when a believer says they have converted to atheism, it’s hard for me to believe that they really believed what they believed was really real in the first place. But if that’s their claim, I guess I have no choice but to accept it, because I am not them and cannot see their perspective.

Thank you. You threw me when you declared above that former theists were never really theists at all. Accepting what someone like me – who was a devoted, serious, bible-believing Christian for 30 years – says about herself seems to me to be the only respectful way of interacting with others whom you don’t know (well).

Me too, thus why I said what I said when Linda originally made the comment.

Linda said,

January 15, 2008 at 9:47 pm

Mriana,

The OT is written in Hebrew, not Greek. The Hebrew word is da’ath, meaning knowledge, knowing, understanding, discerning, perceiving…

Linda, I fully understand this. What I’m saying is that I’m not seeing what you are seeing in Genesis.

Maybe I went too far in saying that humans decided what’s good and evil.

Not far enough, IMO. Even the idea of God is a human concept.

That’s why when a believer says they have converted to atheism, it’s hard for me to believe that they really believed what they believed was really real in the first place. But if that’s their claim, I guess I have no choice but to accept it, because I am not them and cannot see their perspective.

Thank you. You threw me when you declared above that former theists were never really theists at all. Accepting what someone like me – who was a devoted, serious, bible-believing Christian for 30 years – says about herself seems to me to be the only respectful way of interacting with others whom you don’t know (well).

Siamang,

Wait, it wasn’t the tree of “Deciding Good and Evil”. It was the tree of “Knowlege of Good and Evil”. If the Tree of Knowlege wasn’t a tree of Knowlege then God has a funny way of naming things, no?

^_^ I had already corrected myself on my post right above yours. “Deciding” was probably the wrong choice of word. It’s hard for me to argue semantics when all I’m trying to do is look at the concept and the big picture.

To gain knowlege one must disobey God. What a horrible message to build a religion on. But awfully convenient, I must say, as a tool for the Priest caste to keep the peasants from questioning their authority.

I know that is what we’re taught. I was trying to point out, though, that God is not the culprit for those teachings. Religion is. Religion is not God. I know it’s very hard for people to separate the two; but as I said a few posts back, even if I abandoned my religion, my relationship with God would not cease. It will continue to change and evolve, maybe even grow, but I’m confident that I will not lose it.

That’s why when a believer says they have converted to atheism, it’s hard for me to believe that they really believed what they believed was really real in the first place. But if that’s their claim, I guess I have no choice but to accept it, because I am not them and cannot see their perspective.

An authoritarian God? That’s not the God I know.

So heaven is a democracy? I don’t think that’s depicted at all in the Bible.

You will admit that with all the smiting and turning people into salt, and striking children dead for being the first born of Egypt that it would be easy for me to make that mistake. And then there was that whole “destroying the whole world to rid the world of human sin” episode. Long story short: didn’t work!

I’m pleased that you worship a different God than that. But if we’re talking about Christianity and the Bible, you’ll have to cut me some slack here. I’m sure I can find Christians who think all that and then some about this god who you seem to know better than they.

I don’t mean to tell you what YOU believe, Linda. I’m talking about the masses, who believe that God damned humanity for the evil of wanting to know something that God wouldn’t allow. To gain knowlege one must disobey God. What a horrible message to build a religion on. But awfully convenient, I must say, as a tool for the Priest caste to keep the peasants from questioning their authority.

Besides, Adam had already been given tremendous knowledge, enough knowledge to name every living creature on earth accordingly (Gen. 2:20).

Does it take tremendous knowlege to name some animals? Can’t you just string some vowels and consonants together? It’s not like he had to get them right… he got to name them in the first place! Whatever he said was right. If he said “Mfumblarp” then we’d be riding mfumblarps every Kentucky Derby.

They did not eat of the tree for more knowledge. It was to become like God and decide for themselves what is right and wrong.

Wait, it wasn’t the tree of “Deciding Good and Evil”. It was the tree of “Knowlege of Good and Evil”. If the Tree of Knowlege wasn’t a tree of Knowlege then God has a funny way of naming things, no?

The OT is written in Hebrew, not Greek. The Hebrew word is da’ath, meaning knowledge, knowing, understanding, discerning, perceiving…

Referring to the garden, I was not arguing the validity or the truth of the passage. I was merely inferring the symbolic meaning from my perspective.

The only point I wanted to make was that the tree of knowledge of good and evil did not represent more knowledge as a whole. Just the knowledge of what’s good and evil. Maybe I went too far in saying that humans decided what’s good and evil. Maybe what’s good and evil are not what they seem at all. They just are. Bad exists with the good. Dark with the light, etc.

Man becomes obsessed with good and evil. It becomes a religion. Religion introduces the idea that humans are perfectable. It teaches that there’s something inherently wrong with us, and we need to constantly strive to correct it. We come up short. Fear, shame, and guilt follow.

Again, this is my view. How I see it. How I understand my faith. It’s not right or wrong. I’m just describing how it looks from my angle.

I really don’t think Gensis is referrring to knowledge as a whole. I understand it to only mean knowing what’s good and evil, which indicates morality.

Linda, I’m not sure how you are referring to “knowledge” in the case of Genesis. It definitely has nothing to do with Gnosis. As far as morality goes… well it is a bit archiac in that matter.

As far as Adam and Eve, that’s just a story. One story out of many similar stories. In fact, there is another Hebrew/Jewish story that deals with Lilith. She knew God’s name, used it, thus had power. Not only that, she refused to be on the bottom. She eventually left Adam and not even three angels could make her return to Adam. So God gave him a new wife- Eve.

http://gnosis.org/lilith.htm

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/Lilith/

I don’t know if either link has the actual story though. I can’t find it off hand, but she was first feminist. Thing is, that story is not included in the Bible, but the myth known among some Jewish people and there is a lot of superstition around it- like baby boys have to wear this item until the are circumcized to protect them from Lilith.

Whatever the case, it is not religious legalism, but rather an on going story or rather myth building. There is no historical fact in the story of Adam and Eve, but rather a borrowed story from other cultures and rewritten to fit the Hebrew culture. THEN the Hebrews built onto that also with more stories borrowed from other cultures. There really isn’t anything original with the stories. In fact, you can trace their stories back to the Assyrians, Babylonians, and Egyptians.

And Mriana, you said the other day that “jumping ship” would not change who I am. After having thought about it at length, you are absolutely right. Ship is only a vehicle, nothing more. I am who I am regardless.

I’m glad you thought about it and yes, you would still be you as you are. Hopefully I can give you more things to ponder.

Ignorance should be a sin, not knowlege.

I really don’t think Gensis is referrring to knowledge as a whole. I understand it to only mean knowing what’s good and evil, which indicates morality. Humans therefore took on the task of coming up with our own moral code. Does religion not come from morality according to man? Wasn’t religion invented to control the masses?

In the book, Adam and Eve did not know right from wrong before the incident in the garden. They just were. They were content. They did not know sin. Besides, Adam had already been given tremendous knowledge, enough knowledge to name every living creature on earth accordingly (Gen. 2:20). They did not eat of the tree for more knowledge. It was to become like God and decide for themselves what is right and wrong. This sounds like religious legalism to me.