Dawn and grazatt, thank you for your feedback. My intent in sharing my stories and my viewpoint is to create the same relaxation of spiritual shoulders in others that I felt myself when I found a group that accepted, loved and encouraged me BECAUSE of my “heresies.” Your response tells me I’ve succeeded even a little bit.

Donna, I appreciate your willingness to share some of the pain that causes your reaction to Mike and me. All I can say is that the sense of rejection I’ve felt from other Christians my whole life because of those same “heresies” created some very deep wounds in my own soul that have yet to fully heal. I, too, have had people tell me that they were praying for me in that very particular condescending way that they do. I was never quite up to their standards for being a “real” Christian when I asked difficult questions and put forth unorthodox ideas as things that felt like they were truth. Consequently, I was always on the edge of the group begging for acceptance. My theology has been formed by those horrible feelings of rejection. Why couldn’t they just have loved me?

Yup. Still hurts.

I never want someone to feel the way that I have felt and continue to feel. That desire opened the door to discovering my theories about the different faces of God and the implications of atonement (i.e. everyone goes to heaven but not everyone is happy once they get there because they’re mad that they’re not the only ones who got in: that’s hell).

Why religion? Personally, I can’t deny the divinity of Christ. I have experienced moments of unquestionable awareness that God exists and that she loves me. The culture in which I was raised explained that feeling of love with the story of Christ’s sacrifice and resurrection. That explanation made sense and I’ve never been able to shake it, even though I’ve spent more than half my life shaking the other things they told me at the same time. The persistence of my certainty is almost proof in itself that it’s the best way I’ll interact with God. Whether Christ is a rotten corpse or fiction (and I’ll admit both are valid possibilities) it’s the story and it’s influence that is important. Like Tim O’Brien says in The Things They Carried, “Just because it didn’t happen doesn’t mean it isn’t true.”

I think trying to convince you that I’m genuine disrespects your acknowledgment that this might be a wound that doesn’t heal in this life. All I can do is tell you my story. Thank you for listening. If you’re interested, I can also introduce you to my brother who lives out his spiritual life according to Hindu traditions and let him vouch whether or not I’m truly happy that he has found God in whatever voice spoke his language.

Thanks again for this opportunity to share.

I think that’s what humanity is about.

Yes, that too.

I think you’re stuck in a mindset where you can’t admit that if some atheists are better than Christians that shows that goodness has absolutely nothing to do with God or Jesus.

Why would that follow? If God exists, then I would expect to find her influence everywhere, not just among Christians. In the very first chapter of the Bible we’re told that humanity – all of us – was created in God’s image, so if that’s true then I would expect that anyone and everyone is capable of reflecting that image. Atheists acting better than Christians doesn’t prove anything except that atheists share that common humanity.

BTW, did you mean TTFN?

Hope work goes well!

Donna

However, if what you really care about is “using my life to be a force for good in the world and living it to the full, and then helping others to do the same” — which I think is a noble and worthy effort — then why tie it to religion at all? And please don’t say “I’m not religious, I just love the Lord” or anything like that.

I wasn’t going to say that. What I was going to say is that this is exactly what my religion is about in the first place. Why tie it into religion? Because that’s what my religion is – that’s what I think God is about, that’s what I think Jesus is all about, that’s what I think the underlying nature of the whole universe is about. I don’t have to convince everyone else of those metaphysical realities to help them live in this way too, but that doesn’t change my own belief that these realities are what underlie all of it. It’s what inspires me and motivates me to live the way I do and to encourage others to do the same. This isn’t just some theoretical thing that I could drop if it is inconvenient to my cause. This is a deep, existential – I would even say “spiritual” – reality in my life.

You certainly don’t need Jesus to meet those goals. In fact, with all the negative baggage, I think Jesus and Christianity are hindrances to meeting your goals. There are much better role models and mentors you could emulate. Jesus’s legacy seems to be mostly war and prejudice and strife.

I disagree. I do need Jesus, because again, this is not just some abstract belief, some “religion” thing for me. It’s not simply a matter of choosing a “mentor” or “role model”. Jesus is far more to me than that. His Spirit is a living reality in my life. I have experienced the presence and power of God in my life, and that is what has changed me and motivates me. As Peter Rollins has said, religion is simply what I’m left with in the aftermath of an encounter with the Divine.

In fact, I think everyone needs Jesus in their lives – I just don’t think everyone needs to explicitly acknowledge this fact or even believe in God at all for Jesus’ Spirit to be present and at work within them. I think Jesus shows up in people’s lives in many different guises, not all of which have much to do with what we typically call “religion”. This is why I’ve often said that I’ve met many atheists who are better followers of Jesus than some Christians I know. I’m not just saying that. I honestly believe those people are following Jesus even if they themselves wouldn’t call it that. They might not even take that as a compliment, but I do mean it as such.

However, if what you really care about is “using my life to be a force for good in the world and living it to the full, and then helping others to do the same” — which I think is a noble and worthy effort — then why tie it to religion at all? And please don’t say “I’m not religious, I just love the Lord” or anything like that.

You certainly don’t need Jesus to meet those goals. In fact, with all the negative baggage, I think Jesus and Christianity are hindrances to meeting your goals. There are much better role models and mentors you could emulate. Jesus’s legacy seems to be mostly war and prejudice and strife.

Donna

As for the whole “making disciples” thing, I thought Rebecca was clear that “making disciples” is different (in her mind, and in mine) than “converting people to Christianity”. I agree with her. I do want to “make disciples of Jesus” if by that one means “helping people live the way of love, compassion, generosity, reconciliation, and justice that Jesus taught and demonstrated”, but I don’t think that has to necessarily mean converting people to “Christianity” (as Rebecca said, oftentimes that can actually be counter-productive). I.e. it’s not about “evangelism”, it’s simply about using my life to be a force for good in the world and living it to the full, and then helping others to do the same.

Mike & Rebeca, I just don’t buy it that you think everyone is OK and you’re not trying to save them. I’d like to believe it but I am not sure what it would take to convince me after 46 years of seeing the opposite everywhere I turn. Even my mother, with whom I have an excellent relationship, is that kind of phoney. I know for a fact she and her friends pray for me and she thinks I need to come back to the Lord and she’ll never give up until the day she dies, even though she will no longer say it to my face because I finally told her if she couldn’t leave me alone about religion, then she was not welcome in my home.

I can’t help suspecting that you are here on this blog trying to show us how nice you are so we’ll see the light and come over from the dark side. Rebecca, you even admitted it when you said you are called to make disciples of other people.

I know the lingo. I was an insider for 2/3rds of my life.