a friend of mine, whose family is very baptist, used to attend church camp every summer. apparently tons of gay stuff goes on there when all the counselors aren’t around.

Can’t agree with your position on this.

People are not sheep, and don’t deserve to be fleeced. (Of course, Jesus compares his followers to sheep–shouldn’t they be offended? Sheep aren’t exactly the sharpest animals in the zoological family tree…but that’s another post…)

If one approves of “fleecing the sheep”, as it were, one also has to approve of Benny Hinn’s, Jerry Falwell’s, John Edward’s, etc. doing the exact same thing to their flocks. And approval of their ill-gotten gains, as well.

I just cannot go there.

Yes, but no more than any other people need love and acceptance. They don’t need more of it because there is something wrong with them.

Certainly, there is nothing wrong with them. I only imply that they are especially in need of love because many of them have been made to feel evil and immoral because of an ascribed trait. I think we are in agreement on this point. To the extent that these people need an apology from a church or the church, I hope that they can find one of the hundreds of churches (or more) across the country (including my own) that embrace homosexuals for who they are and that have taken a stand against injustice and prejudice in all of its forms. Simultaneously, faith communities like mine will continue to work to expand the short-sighted, bigoted viewpoints of Christians who may have them.

Time doesn’t flow evenly through the universe. The outcome of such a story today in the American Midwest or the South would be very different.

Maybe, but maybe not. It’s probably both unproductive and untrue to imply that folks from the South or Midwest are necessarily more bigoted than other folks. I’ve lived on both sides of the Mason-Dixon, and in my experience people are no more or less bigoted on either side—people on one side are just better trained at being outwardly P.C.

They may close down but a new hate fags fad or hate somebody fad will replace them.

Probably so; it seems like there is something inherent in human nature that makes people inclined to find something different from themselves and hate it, preferably en masse (and occasionally in mass).

The root problem won’t change until fundamentalist Christians take a razor blade to their Bibles the way Thomas Jefferson did and cut out the asinine parts.

My inner librarian is cringing. I think it might be better yet if people just realized that there is a lot of garbage in the Bible that is a product of its authors and the time in which they lived rather than a reflection of divine will. But that’s easy for me to say; I’m not a literalist.

Karen:

…I think there’s a clear trend that acceptance and empathy will win out. The minority of religious folk who hang on to their hatred will die off – hopefully during my lifetime.

I share your opinion. I think that, by and large, homosexuality will reach mainstream Christian acceptance in the next fifteen to twenty years, and almost all of the major critics of homosexuality will be dead or quiet within a few years of that.

I am open to hear someone disagree with this opinion though.

Unbrainwashed, I’m very happy that you are open to disagreement because I think that your stance that suckers have it coming is a serious mistake. The idea that someone who is vulnerable deserves to be abused is the “morality” of a con artist and of a sociopath. Some people are born with not so much intelligence as others. That does not make them deserving of being tricked. Others are of average or even above average intelligence but have been born into two disadvantages: They have been indoctrinated from infancy to believe in their family’s religious prejudices and they have been tormented first within themselves and later by others for inborn traits, such as homosexuality, that conflict with those prejudices. Or they have grave illnesses. In either case they are in terrible pain, anguish and conflict. To expect them in the midst of their desperation to use cool and objective judgment and reject all their upbringing with the ease of someone who has never been so “brainwashed” is absurd. It is an uncompassionate view born of aloofness.

Please think carefully about what you are saying. There is a difference between encouraging people to take more responsibility for protecting themselves from abuse, and callously blaming the victim. If you really think that the “credulous” merit the suffering they get, then say that straight to the several atheists here who came from strongly religious families and for many years believed it all.

That’ll be on the second Tuesday after the sun becomes a red giant.

I don’t think it will be quite THAT long …

Younger religious people are getting away from strict literalism, and in particular are bugged by the anti-gay rhetoric of the old-liners. I think we’re going to see Christianity adapt – late, but eventually – to respect homosexuals as much of larger society has done. Whether that means ignoring their scriptures or “interpreting” the offensive part away, well – it won’t be the first time.

We’re still in a struggle, much as we are with racism and with anti-atheist propaganda, but I think there’s a clear trend that acceptance and empathy will win out. The minority of religious folk who hang on to their hatred will die off – hopefully during my lifetime.

I’m also making a clear distinction between taking money and deriding someone for who they are (in this case their sexuality). However, these “ex-gays” are so caught up and indoctrinated that they believe the bullshit. So my sympathy for them, considering their own delusion, is minimal.

I am open to hear someone disagree with this opinion though.

He was interviewed about all this in a Southern California public high school newspaper, and there were absolutely no negative repercussions. I wrote a letter to the editor commending him for his honesty and courage – that was it. Hardly an eye batted.

Time doesn’t flow evenly through the universe. The outcome of such a story today in the American Midwest or the South would be very different.

Here’s hoping that ex-gay ministries will become obsolete before the end of the decade.

They may close down but a new hate fags fad or hate somebody fad will replace them. The root problem won’t change until fundamentalist Christians take a razor blade to their Bibles the way Thomas Jefferson did and cut out the asinine parts.

That’ll be on the second Tuesday after the sun becomes a red giant.

Case in point: My kids’ chemistry teacher came out in an article in the school paper last year. He was interviewed about how he’d grown up Christian, tried ex-gay therapy and anguished when it didn’t “take.” Eventually he came to terms with himself and his god, found a life partner and the two of them now own a home together.

He was interviewed about all this in a Southern California public high school newspaper, and there were absolutely no negative repercussions. I wrote a letter to the editor commending him for his honesty and courage – that was it. Hardly an eye batted.

Compare this to 30 years ago, when my high school music teacher was picked up in a police sweep of a gay bar in Orange County, immediately suspended from work and then fired. He had been one of the most popular teachers at the school for 20 years and we students didn’t even have the opportunity to say goodbye to him. It was shameful.

Here’s hoping that ex-gay ministries will become obsolete before the end of the decade.