Another Cartoon by Don Addis

There is, of course, a large chapter on atheism in that book!

I Googled for “The Great Religions By Which Men Live” and found that it was an actual book, but I couldn’t find a table of contents. Looney, when you wrote, “There is, of course, a large chapter on atheism in that book!” were you being flippant or remembering the contents of the book?

hee hee I love it!

There’s a real difference between holding beliefs and being a member of a religion. If you want to claim that scientists belong to some religion that believes in the validity of the scientific method then you can but it doesn’t make it true. Atheists hold many different beliefs, but there aren’t ‘denominations’ – just occasionally groups who claim a certain label based on their priorities (i.e. Secular Humanists). If you want to stretch, you could include SHs in a list of religions, but it’s still a pretty far stretch.

Atheists on the other hand are no different than, say, people who believe the Loch Ness monster doesn’t exist or people who believe gravity does exist. The word just designates a stance on one particular belief -the belief in God. If forming groups to talk about and argue for one belief (or lack thereof) makes these groups “religions” then there are millions and millions of religions unaccounted for, including religions made up of ‘shippers’ for different television couples, all of the political parties, and people who take sides in the ninjas vs. pirates debates.

I think calling atheism a “religion” and referring to it as having ‘doctrine’ is usually the product of (a) trying to stir up trouble and/or paint nonbelievers with the same brush as the theists they disagree with or (b) not understanding what really makes something a ‘religion’ or ‘doctrine’ in accepted philosophical and theological terminology.

Looney,

No, the atheist finds a key part of his identity in his denial of God.

In my case, and a lot of others, that’s completely false.

A century ago, however, European atheism did have doctrines, such as eugenics.

Not all atheists in Europe a century ago thought eugenics was wise. Plenty of theists thought it was the way to go, it was actually quite a popular position. Atheism is a lack of belief in God, it has nothing to do with questions on eugenics. Atheism is not a religion, it has no doctrine, no dogmas, there’s different types of atheism, and atheists take up opposite positions on nearly every subject.

I love how religious people like to call atheism a religion as if it’s an insult. It takes a particular kind of self-loathing, I think. If atheism is a religion, then it’s the only verifyably true one, for it’s the only one that makes no claim.

My atheism is formulated this way: I worship no gods, because I have yet to see evidence sufficient to compel me to believe.

Hey, a verifyably true statement. So let’s get past this “is not” “is too” back and forth, and get to the real heart of the matter. It is you, Looney, who are here on an atheist website. So you’ve got to admit that perhaps atheism is in your DNA too, or you probably wouldn’t be looking at this website!

Go argue your “eugenics” claims and your “marxism” claims at eugenics-centered or marxist centered websites. This is neither. In all my time on atheist websites, the only people who ever bring up eugenics or marxism are the Christians…. but oh how they LOOOOOVE to say that we’re the ones pushing that crap.

Apologies in advance for assuming you’re a Christian if you are not, looney. Any way, something seems stuck in your craw. Are you here to try and prove something?

Looney, did you come here to pick a fight, save a soul or interact, make friends and maybe learn about someone different from yourself? Because there are plenty of places where people’d line up to try and take a chunk out of you in a debate. We’re generally not like this here, preferring conversation to confrontation. Did you come here to confront, convert, or converse?

We’re interested most of all with the third. We get enough Christian trolls out to cause disruption here… care to set a better example?

Once atheist believed that all men evolved differently: eugenics. Now they believe that all men evolved equally: multi-culturalism(?).

I believe in none of the four ideas referenced in that remark. In fact, I’m not even sure what the first and third even mean, other than the fact that you’re apparently implying some sort of connection between knowledge about biology and metaphysical/epistemic beliefs.

No, the atheist finds a key part of his identity in his denial of God.

If you want to continue on this line of thought, I suggest that you first find one atheist anywhere who finds “denial of God” to be any part of his/her identity whatsoever. Failing to do that, you might settle for trying to find an atheist whose definition of atheism even includes that phrase.

Siamang: In all my time on atheist websites, the only people who ever bring up eugenics or marxism are the Christians…. but oh how they LOOOOOVE to say that we’re the ones pushing that crap.

But without Christians to tell us these things, how could we know what we believe?

“Siamang: In all my time on atheist websites, the only people who ever bring up eugenics or marxism are the Christians…. but oh how they LOOOOOVE to say that we’re the ones pushing that crap.”

Yes, it is a bit anachronistic. Still, Christians had an inquisition, and atheism had eugenics. Islam is mandated in Iran. Atheism is mandated in North Korea. We all have to live with our history and our distant ideological relatives – and no doubt we will always take pleasure in reminding each other!

Atheism is not an ideology, an ideology is a body of beliefs or principles, atheism is a lack of a belief, which doesn’t qualify as a belief.

In North Korea, apart from the great leader who is at least a demigod, the poor people of that country are mandated to believe that God, gods, etc… don’t exist. That certainly is a belief, and is part of an ideology, but certainly not one you would accurate label “atheism”.

Many theists were advocating eugenics, eugenics was not dependent or related to atheism. Many people were advocating eugenics in the 19th century, and many states put eugenics to practice in the 20th, most of them having a majority Christian population.

“all men are created equal”

What book of the bible said that?

Yes, Christians shared the same planet with Eugenicists

Looney, are you trying to claim that no christians were involved with eugenic thinking?

google; “christian advocate eugenics”, first hit –

[from a photo dated 1925] This progressive New- England family is headed by Kenneth C. MacArthur, pastor of the Federated Church in Sterling Massachusetts, lecturer at Andover Newton Seminary, advocate for the Social Gospel, and spokesman for the American Eugenics Society…

…MacArthur’s enthusiasm for eugenics was no anomaly. It was shared by Harry F. Ward, professor of Christian ethics tit Union Theological Seminary from 1918 to 1941 and founder of the Methodist Federation for Social Service (1907), who in his article “Is Christian Morality Harmful, Over-Charitable to the Unfit?” (1928) encouraged Christians to help remove “the causes that produce the weak.” Walter Taylor Summer, dean of the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral of Saints Peter and Paul in Chicago from 1906 to 1915, instituted in 1912 his own system of inspection for prospective couples to ensure that they were “normal physically and mentally.” John Haynes Holmes, Unitarian minister of New York’s Church of the Messiah, concurred (in 1913), encouraging his fellow members of the Liberal Ministers” Association of New York “to perform nothing but health marriages.”

i would dearly love to know what a “tit Union” is…

Looney,

Eugenics was a university elitist phenomenon

Eugenics is an idea that has been around since, and perhaps before, Western civilization.

Countries that practiced eugenics in the 20th century include the United States, Germany, Canada, Australia, Sweden, Britain, Norway, France, Finland, Denmark, Switzerland. Are these not countries full of Christians?

Yes, Christians shared the same planet with Eugenicists, but I grew up with the phrase, “all men are created equal” drilled into my thick skull.

Christians were eugenicists, it was widely believed, including in Christian societies, that other “races” were not “men” at all. Slavery was readily accepted by Christians as well. There’s plenty of people who believe in Jesus and the Bible, and who are blatently, and unapologetically racist. They’re not hard to find, even now.

Ash, places like Union Seminary were Christian in name only.

Ah, “not true Christians?”

But Looney, you cherry-picked just one church on that list. Are the Methodists not true christians either?

The Federated Church in Sterling is Methodist as well.

Andover Newton is Baptist.

And also mentioned is the Protestant Episcopal Cathedral of Saints Peter and Paul in Chicago.

I’m certain that these groups are all somehow not “True Christians,” right?

Siamang, the phrase “advocate for the Social Gospel” is generally associated with the Jesus as guru, but not as deity groups. The Methodists were quite varied, but according to Ash, the person quoted was also associated with Union Theological Seminary which had a theology fairly close to what you discussed regarding “The Little Book of Atheist Spirituality”. The idea of Jesus as a good teacher, but not God was common to many groups, such as the Quakers. It really is much closer to atheism than Christianity, although it sometimes brings in mysticism.

I am not familiar with Taylor Summer or that period of the Episcopal church in the US, so I can’t comment.

Certainly I am sure you can find plenty of racists associated with conservative Christian churches at that time, however, I will still insist that this was more a cultural hangover and entirely distinct from eugenics, which purported to be founded on science and whose advocates were typically university educated.

Thanks for the dialog.