First, marriage IS a religious institution that has societal implications. It is always surrounded by ritual and religious practice, whether one acknowledges that fact or not. It is inherently religious in nature.

So, if and when you decide to get married/got married, you will not/didn’t register with the state?

Well, so long as we’re being sexist, there are a million and one things women need to shut their traps on then. It’s a human issue lady.

The one good thing here is it is clear this man will never had sex with a woman. Ergo, his position on abortion doesn’t matter.

But, obviously, those who are the product of rape and were allowed to live and have a unique disposition about the matter. Who are YOU to tell them they have no right to life? What makes you any more valuable than another human life?

Children of rape are allowed to go on living, because they were actually born and all. But no fetus has a right to live; I certainly didn’t. Had my mother aborted me, that would be fine- no one would even notice I was missing. On the other hand, my mother was in her late twenties when I was born, and it is possible that at some point in her life prior to me, she had an abortion (I don’t know if she did as it is NONE OF MY FUCKING BUSINESS). If she had an abortion in the past, it is part of the reason I ended up being born- had my parents had sex at any other point other than that one time I was conceived, I, Jen, would not be who I am today.

I bullshit you not that this country is headed towards the legalization of gay marriage within the next 50 years.

YAY!

So, you can tell me I’m bullshitting myself because they haven’t gotten everything they want.

Did you ever read what I wrote? Your bullshit involved WHY the people in power are fighting it, that it’s somehow for gay people’s own good and everyone’s good. Yeah, right….

It is inherently religious in nature.

You have railed against my points but you have not said a thing of substance.

On the contrary, I made several points regarding the secular nature of marriage – I don’t see you refuting them or offering anything ‘of substance’, as you put it, except restating, without any support, that marriage is somehow ‘religious’ in nature.

They’re killing baby humans.

No, they aren’t. That’s just your opinion, not a fact. Even what little religious tradition there is on the matter says that life begins with the first breath, not before. This ‘life begins at conception’ is a new idea and has no foundation in either science or religion.

Who are YOU to tell them they have no right to life?

There is no ‘right to life’ for any of us. We all die.

What makes you any more valuable than another human life?

The underlying, false assumption that fetuses are human life is behind that question. Leaving out fetuses, the answer is: nothing in particular.

First, marriage IS a religious institution that has societal implications. It is always surrounded by ritual and religious practice, whether one acknowledges that fact or not. It is inherently religious in nature.

You have railed against my points but you have not said a thing of substance. I was asked for considerations, non-religious ones, and I gave them. You told me to get a womb. It seems anyone can comment on Christianity, but you can only comment on abortion if you have a vagina and a womb. Unless, of course, you’re a man who AGREES with abortion. Then you can talk all you want. Well, so long as we’re being sexist, there are a million and one things women need to shut their traps on then. It’s a human issue lady. They’re killing baby humans. And, no, not every woman who has an abortion does so for selfish reasons. Just a majority of them, statistically speaking. And I know a number of people who are either victims of rape or the product of rape. Some made the decision to have an abortion. Though I disagree with that, I am still compassionate. But, obviously, those who are the product of rape and were allowed to live and have a unique disposition about the matter. Who are YOU to tell them they have no right to life? What makes you any more valuable than another human life?

Finally, while there are plenty of people in government who are Christians, there are a great number of them who are not who are pushing for gay marriage. Even more, there are Christians who are violating their own beliefs and pushing for it, also. If this were not an issue, it would not constantly be before the House of Reps and the Senate. But it is, A LOT. And gays have made great strides in local, state, and national government to have their agenda met. So, you can tell me I’m bullshitting myself because they haven’t gotten everything they want. But, I bullshit you not that this country is headed towards the legalization of gay marriage within the next 50 years.

It should be glaringly obvious how wrong this is — it is the very definition of a No True Scotsman fallacy. If I live in accord with your Christian values but reject the divinity of Jesus, am I then a Christian? Which set of Christian values is the precise set that one can follow to ensure that they are indeed Christian? It’s not as though every (supposed) Christian reaches the exact same conclusion for every ethical consideration — who’s correct? And whoever it is, everyone sins anyway, right? So how can anyone really be a Christian, if everyone fails at some point to exhibit the requisite behavior? Or does one cease to be a Christian after their transgression, but regain their status after they ask for forgiveness (at least until the next time)? You’d better be really good between your last repentance and your death, in that case…. And what if one believes that Jesus lived and was divine, but that the bible as it exists today is a corruption of his teachings resulting from centuries of miscopying and deliberate modification by man? What of all the incipient Christian sects who were stamped out or irreparably marginalized by what later came to be known as orthodox Christianity? A Christian is, by definition, one who believes in the divinity of Jesus. Arguing to exclude people from this category on the basis of their behavior is fallacious.

C.E.Moore: Charles Barkley can talk about basketball all day. As for Christian morality, he needs to shut up.

Sorry, everyone is entitled to express their opinion about “Christian morality” or any other set of moral values. You’re welcome to make an argument for your moral system, and while it may be more convenient for you if your ideological opponents simply shut up, you have no right to expect them to do so. Cheer up, though — this means you can talk about basketball if you like, even if you happen to disagree with Sir Charles on that topic, as well.

As for a “spokesperson” – who said Barkley is anyone’s spokesperson? He’s just a guy with an opinion. Please keep in mind that atheists generally do not have the command structure fetish so often exhibited by dogmatic theists.

1) It has no business being regulated by law.
2) The government cannot give benefits to married couples.
3) If a religion allowed it, then there’s no reason to deny them permission to marry any couple.

I would prefer that stance. Some of the happiest (and most devoted) couples I know aren’t married. They also have sex and have a kid.

I’ve also known kids born to (through artificial insemination) or adopted by gay parents, and their only tendency is to be less religious. Could that be what you’re trying to prevent?

I can only conclude that a Christian is one who believes that Jesus lived and was both the “Son of God” and the Messiah prophesied in the OT. The condition of being a Christian is not determined by one’s actions or proclamations, but by one’s beliefs.

Ed is right, you are wrong: being a Christian is about behavior more than affirmation. Jesus said “By their fruits you shall know them.” Reread his condemnation of the Scribes and Pharisees. He also said: “Not everyone that says to me ‘Lord, Lord” shall enter into heaven . . .” etc., etc.

Charles Barkley can talk about basketball all day. As for Christian morality, he needs to shut up.

Remember C.E., Less is Moore.

First, marriage is a RELIGIOUS institution.

And again, crapspackle! It’s a HUMAN institution, it’s a CULTURAL institution, one that religion has hijacked as they try to do with everything important. Sure, there is usually a religious official at the wedding and that’s the end of it. What does the couple do before the wedding? They get a license from the government. When the couple decides to get divorced, where do they go? A government office to file, then the decision is made by a government official. If there are questions over the children, also decided by the government. If one person in a marriage dies without a will, the government decides who inherits.

Marriage, a permanent bond with the person you love, is a human birthright for everyone lucky enough to make it work. Religion needs to back off and quit trying to co-opt what isn’t theirs.

Forgive me if i’m more concerned with the fact millions babies have been killed over the emotional well-being of women who made a mistake and want to finish college but a baby will ruin their plans.

How dare you characterize every woman who has an abortion as a moral lightweight only concerned with her personal convenience? I’m sure pregnant rape victims will appreciate that, you jackass. And like the other guy above, your obsession with other people’s wombs is unhealthy. Get over it. Get your own damn womb if it’s so freaking important to you (and you don’t already have one), but leave everyone else’s ALONE, jerk.

But, if you’d like practical, non-religious reasons for not allowing it, there are issues of gender identity that need to be considered, sexual dysfunction that stems from homosexual activity, greater risk of loss of a parent (in a male homosexual relationship), and pyschosocial difficulties that are prevalent in homosexual relationships to an alarming degree.

So, gays are also like little children or developmentally-disabled people who shouldn’t be allowed to make their own decisions? So good of you to take up that burden for them. I’m sure they’ll be grateful.

I assure you that when the government says, “No gay marriage,” it is not doing so for wholly Christian reasons.

Ok, so you aren’t just bullshitting us, you are bullshitting yourself. It’s a bunch of powerful people, right wing christian people, abusing their power, and they are SO not doing it for anyone else’s good. How naive do you think we are? How naive are you?