It’s Dangerous for Children To Know Atheism Exists, Says Illinois State Legislator

I’m sure the alchemists thought the knowledge that chemistry existed would corrupt their children, who would then become chemists.

Holy crap… such hatred in her voice.

The spooky thing is the people applauding her.

“consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.”

I think the thing is religious people DO react dramatically when their beliefs are attacked. Some even act like Representative Davis when faced with the mere presence of atheist philosophy!

One reason there’s no similar outcry in this case is because atheists aren’t a bunch of thin-skinned believers who feel they must be protected at all costs from dissenting viewpoints. I don’t think there SHOULD be an outcry after this.

This is GOOD, in my view. Yes, let’s start talking about this stuff openly. No, I don’t mean in a state assembly meeting… that’s clearly inappropriate to the business of running a state.

I think that the message really should be that atheists aren’t afraid of talking about this, and silence HELPS those who want their bigoted views to remain unchallenged. Atheists should say, “PLEASE tell us, and let us talk about all the ways you don’t like us, or what we stand for. But we will talk about you in turn, and with all the kindness, openness and respect you give us.”

Someone help me sharpen my logical fallacy detection, Would the topic brought up about guns in schools be a straw man?

This makes me so sad and so mad and frustrated all at once!

On the optimistic side, all the comments on the news article are sympathetic!

I have a blog meme for you, if you choose to accept it:

http://uncrediblehallq.blogspot.com/2008/04/seven-things.html

Sorry but going to court over a mandatory minute of silence strikes me as the most petty of things one could possibly complain about. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate the importance of being able to get potentially over-excited children to calm down, breath properly and get back under control.

If this is the kind of stuff you think is important enough to go to court over then you really don’t have that much to complain about do you?

The Rosa Parks reference was probably to the end of the clip, where the Representative told Rob Sherman to ‘get out of that seat.’ I don’t know if she was kicking him out of the room or the session or what, but it definitely seemed like she was trying to kick him out of something.

Wow. How horrid.

But, I can sort of see what he is saying. In middle school I became agnostic (and a bit later on an atheist). The reason I did not convert before that? I never actually realized atheists and agnostics existed. Not believing in god had not occured to me as an option. But, as soon as a realized nontheists existed, I realized I was one of them.

Here is her email addy

mdavis@hdsmail.state.il.us

Be sure to let her know your thoughts.

Owen

The theists think that it’s dangerous for kids to even know that atheism even exists because it can plant seeds of doubt. And as theists know very well, if you can what the kids learn about, you can control their viewpoints. It’s a survival mechanism for their religion, don’t let the kids learn about anything else or they might *gasp* have to think for themselves and make informed decisions.

“consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.”

Here’s a quick-and-dirty rewrite of Davis’ remarks:

I don’t understand your obsession with God, but some of us don’t have so much faith. We don’t all necessarily feel that what we experience in this life are His blessings. It’s really a tragedy — it’s tragic — when a person who is engaged in anything related to God, they want to fight. They want mandatory prayer in school.

I don’t see you fighting to teach critical thinking or the scientific method in school. You know?

I’m trying to understand the religion that you want to spread in this state. This is the State, separate from church and God, where people believe in protecting their children. What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous.

It’s dangerous to the progression of this state. And it’s dangerous for our children to even know that your religion exists!

You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.

I find it interesting considering the fact that Lincoln, himself, was an atheist for most of his life.

Sam,

notice that it’s fair to say that parents are not arming their children but are stuffing their heads with illogical superstitions.

But more to the point, the argument that the state was built on religion is preposterous. It was created by the establishment of some artificial boundaries across land owned by native Americans. So, it would be a more sensible argument to say that the state was built on theft of lands.

Buffy, well said!!!

Actually, I don’t see anything wrong with a mandated moment of silence, as long as the law specified that the teacher could not demand anything but *silence.* The kids are then free to use it to mentally review for the test they are about to take, or speculate on what the teacher would look like without her clothes. If the school tries to require prayer, that’s another matter, although the best plaintiff in that case would not be an atheist, but a member of an out-of-favor cult.

Yes, it is natural to believe that if an idea is omitted from the education of a child, it will cease to have any influence in their life. But what good is this in our world today. 200 years ago there was no fear of global warming, much different than today. Instead the fears of people were consumed by things like Heaven and Hell. Why not allow all ideas relative to our time and our world today be a factor in education? Atheism is a real belief, not an abomination to the beliefs of those who choose to believe in god.

There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. This is like somebody making a statement that there is no gold in China. You would have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land, in every man’s home, inside of each person mouth etc. It would not be proveable! Don’t try to argue that you say there is no God because you cannot prove there is! You cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up. At least admit that YOU DON’T KNOW and take your first step toward agnosticism. Only then will you become more rational and realize that having faith is something we all exhibit whether it be in God or anything else.

Land of Lincoln?

Abraham Lincoln, the president that abolished slavery and saved America from dissolution, was a Deist. He believed that God basically leaves us to our own devices. IOW, a practical atheist.

How can she possibly invoke the name of Lincoln to contest atheism? Not only is it a fallacious appeal to authority, it’s an appeal to the wrong authority!

Now that was… absolutely infuriating. Thank you for putting this up.

Anyone who would say something like this, and those who applaud them, have incredibly weak faith in their own religion. Any person is a strong faith would simply say, “I disagree” rather than being threatened by a simple concept that is different than their own view of the world. If your rights aren’t being infringed upon, what does it matter what someone else thinks, religious or not?

I thought the same thing, Derek.
“When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.”
Abraham Lincoln

Rep. Monique Davis seems to be an idiot.

Precisely, but she is clearly one of their best. Hate and ignorance flow from her mouth very well!

It seems that everything she said had no bearing on the situation, was completely inappropriate, and utterly fallacious. I just wish some people would realize what a detriment their “views” are to the future of the HUMAN RACE. If we continue as a theist nation/world, we will undoubtedly encounter a future that is more terrible and real than any HELL described in any one of the hundreds of holy books at your local Barnes and Noble. Violent clashing b/t religions, a constant battle of “good and evil”, an unhealthy, poorly educated population that relies on dog’s “blessings”, an Earth depleted of the resources necessary to maintain such a self-serving society. Now that, my atheistic friends, will be the day that Jesus will NOT fly down on a cloud and condemn us to fire. But people will still look for him!

This, I believe, is the greatest threat to the human race, as it encompasses all of our worst nightmares into one ignorant, uninformed, but easily transmittable viewpoint that was created solely to keep a populus in check while giving one a false sense of hope for a future that will never come except in your wildest prayers.

Our hope lies in the minds of those who can see the whole picture, the whole cosmos, and from that understand that there is no life after death, only here and now. How can anyone profess to be educated yet still base their entire being on an imaginary friend? I don’t know, and I know you don’t either.

PS.
Let’s not sit back and let that stuff happen.

This woman is DANGEROUS and IGNORANT. From the perspective of someone from overseas looking in she does nothing for America’s image. But then that’s what religion does, does it not – discourages LEARNING in favour of FAITH. It’s certainly worked well on her!

I don’t normally link to my own work, but I think this comic says it best:

Input Out

Wow…. I can’t believe I just read what I read.

My brain hurts now.

Sorry but going to court over a mandatory minute of silence strikes me as the most petty of things one could possibly complain about. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate the importance of being able to get potentially over-excited children to calm down, breath properly and get back under control.

If this is the kind of stuff you think is important enough to go to court over then you really don’t have that much to complain about do you?

Sam, no matter what they call these “moments of silence” the intent behind them is always religious in nature. They are meant to sneak prayer/religion into the schools. The easiest way to know this is 1. Look to see who sponsors the bills to put them into the schools (always religious individuals). 2. Listen to who screams loudest when anybody demands they be taken out of the schools (always religious individuals).

Stacy,

How can you say there is no such thing as an atheist? Are you saying you are a-atheistic? If you make an absolute statement that there are no atheists, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this.

Are you unaware that most atheists do not actually say “there is no God” but instead “I don’t believe in god(s)”. There’s a distinction there, and that’s what makes the difference between a weak/implicit/agnostic atheist and a strong/explicit atheist.

This might help clarify matters a bit.
http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheism/p/atheism101.htm

Stacy the Ray Comfort quoter said:

There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. This is like somebody making a statement that there is no gold in China. You would have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land, in every man’s home, inside of each person mouth etc. It would not be proveable!

…

You cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up. At least admit that YOU DON’T KNOW and take your first step toward agnosticism.

Stacy,

If you make an absolute statement that there is no such thing as an atheist, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this.

Unless you can look inside the brains of every single human being on the planet, and understand their reasoning exactly perfectly, there is no way you can make the absolute statement that there is no such thing as an atheist.

You merely have FAITH there is no such thing as an atheist. I on the other hand, AM an atheist, and therefore I have first-hand understanding of my belief in atheists, and do not need faith in the existence or non-existence of atheists.

As you yourself wrote: you cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up.

In other words, it doesn’t take faith to believe that atheists exist. You, however, have faith that we do not. That’s a very strange belief-system you have there. In order for you to assert what you assert, you’d have to be able to look inside my mind.

At least admit that you don’t know and take your first step toward atheist-agnosticism.

Cheers, and may you find the peace and truth you seek, friend. Most of us here have taken a long journey to find ourselves at the place we are today. Many of us here once believed as you believe. Seek to learn about our journeys before you condemn us. Jesus himself would do no less.

Owen, thanks for the email address. I was happy to let the willfully ignorant representative of ‘The Land of Lincoln’ know how I felt. I’m sure it will go unread, but it made me feel a little better.

Stacey… I’m an atheist. I’m real. I just pinched myself, so I know it’s true. It’s like people I know who ask “Don’t you believe in the Bible?” Of course I have to say “I do believe in it! I’ve SEEN one!”

Flonkbob

It’s dangerous to know atheism! Take this.

Kneel before Zod!

Oh, and Rep. Davis is a Twit.

If you say that you do not believe in deity (i.e. denying His existence), how is that any different from saying “there in no god(s)/God?”

Well do you deny THE GREAT FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (praised be his name)? It takes faith to deny his existence, right?

Lincoln, Illinois???

Stacey, you’ve convinced me! I now believe in Thor! Thanks so much for opening my eyes. Excuse me, I have a sacrifice to make now….

Stacy,

I’m not the one making a claim for something. You’re trying to twist it to fit your agenda, but the fact remains I don’t have any reason to believe anything without proof. Anyone who posits a god is the one with a claim. The burden of proof is on the theist, not the atheist. I refuse to accept that burden for you.

And YOU try going into a court of law and claiming “You murdered that man. I just KNOW it’s true! It’s up to you to prove you didn’t.” Wrong. It’s up to the one with the claim to prove that claim. There. Is. No. Proof.

If you have some, I’m listening.

“This is what our state is built upon”

Does anyone find it frightening that elected officials seem to have the least knowledge about the fundamental tenets of U.S. Constitution? The ideas that actually went behind the founding of this country?

We need to stop voting for people like this.

What the fuck? I am so disgusted I’m having trouble articulating it. I guess the only thing I can say is that, it is fundamentally unhealthy to need to believe in unseen mystical consciousnesses or forces to the degree that you actually fear others not believing it too. This sounds to me like the symptom of someone who has a sense that what they are doing is wrong so they try to peer pressure those in proximity to do it to so that it seems less bad or absurd. I don’t need to explain my reality or universe with anything other than logic, physic, and the scientific method. Figuring out the incredible majesty and complexity of nature is enough for me, it needs no spiritual ornament to make it compelling. I simply do not need to believe in mysticism and superstition to find reality fulfilling. In addition I would add that it is insulting and ignorant to assume that religion has a monopoly on morality. I feel fierce loyalty to justice, the public good, fairness, progress, order, and freedom. I live by the rule that I should treat others as I would like to be treated. In my social decision making process I always attempt to select the most harmonious course of action, and not because I believe in some supernatural being that will punish or reward me, or that expects something. I act this way, and believe this way, because it is an evolutionary imperative. Man is a social creature who works in groups, and thrives in groups. Behaving in a way that maintains a spirit of cooperation and order is beneficial to all partners and allows them to achieve more than they could were they isolated. So it is LOGICAL to be MORAL in a society.

You can’t prove that God does not exist. Like you can’t prove that there is no Santa Claus. Some believe in Santa Claus – some not

Flonkbob, while yes there is no proof of the existence of God, the converse is also true: there is no proof of Gods non-existence. And by God here, I’m not talking about say the Christian God in particular, I’m making a statement about a generic higher power that exists outside of our space-time, and since until we fully understand the Laws which govern our own space-time, we cannot begin to show what God is like should he exist since we have no Laws and reality with which to compare it with.
Also, any comparison Stacy or Flonkbob to a court of law is ridiculous since in a court of law, the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing is there to prevent a miscarriage of justice and not ruin someone’s life, so there, the burden is on the one with the claim to prove its claim and not the defendent (unless the prosecutors do offer evidence in which case the defendent would be stupid not to offer their evidence). However with a proof/disproof of God, no such ruination of lives can happen so if someone contends that for 100% definite there is a God or there isn’t one then they need to show why if questioned.
There is nothing in science so far that has proven or disproven a creator’s existence. Just because the Bible isn’t accurate (we know that the Big Bang and Evolution are what have happened not Genesis) doesn’t mean that a creator didn’t set the universe off with the Big Bang and told the universe to follow the laws of physics. That’s my personal belief that there is a creator but not involved with the universe’s goings on since the Big Bang but its not proven so I could be absolutely wrong. However at the present moment there is ROOM for God in science but not a NEED for him/her/it/whatever. God could be a table for all we know! Or there might be no God.
As I said its my belief that there is some sort of God outside space-time but its just my guess, with the non-existence of any evidence to the contrary or even for it the reason why I hold such a belief. If one day I’m offered proof of God’s existence or non-existence, I’ll do my best to understand it (its likely to be pretty hefty going!) and then back it with the uttermost passion.

I seem to recall another Sherman who went up against a Davis, and one can only hope history repeats itself here.

Stacey ——-

there aint no god, we come to this conclusion because we studied science to find out answers to our our fractured faith. you will realise too its all bullshit.
do u know what a partical is? can you try and imagen how big the universe is – i struggle. could you understand the latest answer to universal unification the string theory? if you havent looked you have no business defending a magic man with a beard in the clouds. you spend all your time Hopeing, while the rest of us spend it THINKING.—because of this, theres more chance of my athiest answer being more accurate than yours. plus, your anologys suck.

People, get a life. You put these people in office. You have to live with the consequences. If you are unhappy with the level of thinking exhibited by your elected officials, then perhaps you should look further afield for electable candidates.

Oh on the issue above it seems to be about this legislation to make prayer mandatory for the schools over there. That seems stupid, its your choice if you wish to pray or not.
However I don’t get what the women was saying about keeping the church(es) for historical reasons. Thats fair enough but is someone trying to remove the actual church(es) themselves? I would like to know.
Still comparing this issue to standing against guns in school, erm guns are illegal for children surely so why need to take a stand in that respect? Making a stand there doesn’t require a change in law whereas standing against this bill would do if it came through.
I see no bill to legalize guns in schools, although I’m British so maybe I haven’t looked deep enough into this American issue.

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for the great dialogue. I really enjoyed it. I have to go now, but would have liked to continue. The server went down for a while and now I have to leave.

Have a great weekend!

Why is everyone feeding the troll?

Also:
Britain said,

She no longer has to explore other points of view, her brain activity decreases, and she becomes a monster of god’s will

I recently came acroos a better term for this, though, I regret to say, I cannot remember where.

Godbot. Isn’t that just perfect?

I am not an atheist. I rather like Maher’s quote about inventing a word for not believing in vampires or Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Still, I do think it is a dangerous thing to snatch away God from this world right now. It would be a trade off, as it is equally dangerous to have a large segemtn of the population expecting or even approving of the End of the World. I do say we need to tolerate Christianity at least until people are not such fuckwit homunculi.

So get comfortable there. We’re in for a long wait.

Personally, I think it is absurd to remove the moments of silence be them for religious or national reasons.

She’s right, you know. The children knowing that atheism exists is dangerous. It’s dangerous to those assholes who indoctrinate them with religion. It’s dangerous because if the supply of new sheep is exhausted then they those in power are dead and gone and their legacy will die with them.

Bullet, that word was used in a quote once here, is that what you were trying to remember? And yes, it’s perfect for those who have left thought behind and are just running on program.

Stacey, glad you were here. So few people actually leave thank you notes, it comes as a shock to see one. Hope you can come back again sometime…

That woman’s tirade was totally out of order. The moderator’s words at the end made it clear that she was WAY off on a tangent, asking something about a musician and then setting up a straw man and getting all huffy and loud…

She should be ashamed of herself and so should whoever was *supposed* to be in charge of those proceedings.

um no offense to anyone who supports Sherman or any atheist in general but i don’t feel either way because even though Monique Davis’s comments were out of line Sherman is kind of an asshole. he uses hes children to fight his battles in public schools and because of that his children well to put it politely aren’t really all that popular… at all. in fact in the same suit talked about in the first paragraph of the article he not only sued Blagojevich but the superintendent of district she attends school at the principal of the school she goes to and the teacher who teaches the period that the moment of silence takes place in all of which had no part in the lawmaking process and all who would have been fired if the law hadn’t been followed

You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.

And that would be what, lofty thinking?
Or perhaps something that offers no proof of existance.
Either way, separation of church and state should be enough to make her blatantly wrong.

Religion is the cause of the most destructive mental illness in the human race.

Claire said,

…that word was used in a quote once here, is that what you were trying to remember?

Wow, how embarrassing. But no, it was in a comment thread on another blog that I arrived at through a link maze that I don’t remember. Glad to know it’s current.

There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed. – Bertrand Russell

The issue here guys, is insecurity. When you fear the unknown so badly that you cling to nonsense to force yourself into a false sense of security…. you want other people to believe too, if they don’t, it shatters your security. We cant have that, can we? Pure. Unadulterated. Insecurity……..

Stacey – you are clearly stupid with your “no such thing as atheism” rant

a) you clearly don’t “have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land” in order to know that god doesn’t exist – since according to Christians god is everywhere, you can prove the non-existence of god by showing a single spot where god doesn’t exist

b) It is for the “pro” argument to prove god does exist, you can’t prove a negative, as any fule kno

c) I know absolutely that god does not exist – i am not a “non-believer” (that slightly belittling term religious people use), I have absolute knowledge that god does not exist.

btw, your own argument applies the other way too – since you can’t prove god does exist, you must therefore be on the road to agnosticism

Your post is another example of religious people saying “ooh you can’t attack me for my religion, but i feel perfectly OK attacking someone because they know god doesnt exist”

She’s full of shit about the religion of course, but she’s right about the guns.

The bible is nothing more than fairy tales for adults.

I think it is interesting that she thinks Atheists are against God. Well, I am not against God. If God were real, then I would be all for him. I am not even against religion per se… thats for the anti-theists. There is certainly some parts with Christianity I can agree with: namely several of the “ten commandments.” I love religion when people can interpret their doctrines and scriptures on their own and determine if they believe it and what they want to make of it for their own culture and time. It is the fundamentalism that I am against. The “spreading of hatred” is certainly not what Jesus would have wanted, right? Please, for the love of God (no pun intended), keep to your own devices and shut the hell up!
I have a friend named Jesus. He is an illegal immigrant. Shouldn’t we be voting on issues that matter instead of “Should I be quiet before class while I make everybody wait on me to finish my prayers?” If you want to pray, do it in on your own time. The state is paying for your education there and I will be damned if my tax dollars have to be spent on your praying. The adults have bigger issues to worry about… like the war and immigration.

Lamont B Dumont said

so few of the commenters are able to see the scared little person behind the bluster. Too many posters describe her as “dangerous”, “angry”, and “terrifying”.

What makes you think they are mutually exclusive? Frightened people often do become angry, because they plain don’t like being scared. Cornered animals will often bite or attack with claws or hooves, and they are dangerous. This woman can get legislation in place, that makes her terrifying. I say she is all of the above.

Stacey

Thanks so much for the great dialogue. I really enjoyed it. I have to go now, but would have liked to continue. The server went down for a while and now I have to leave.

Oh no: the server hosting internet went down? We’ll never be able to come back here and comment ever again? Darn, and I was looking towards using the internet for many years hence.

I have a cousin w/12 kids (she didn’t believe in birth control . . . . God wouldn’t give them any more than they could handle) who she home-schooled – yes, you guessed it – Xtian curriculum. Whenever my late husband and I would visit her parents when they were there, they would make sure we were never alone w/their kids. We weren’t out to de-convert them – only to try to get to know them. My brother-in-law was the same w/their daughter. She was at the age where she was able to make decisions on her own, and that’s exactly what they were afraid of. I have a friend who asked me the other day when I was going to come back to church. I told her probably never, because I’m too intellectual to be a Christian. Many Christians are taught that they can’t manage life w/out belief in God. People have asked me how I was able to work full-time, take care of my disabled husband, who later died, without belief in God. All I can say is that it had to be done and I did it. I believed in my self and not some invisible pie-in-the-sky. I don’t need a crutch.

Rob Sherman is also running for State Representative with the Green Party. Learn more and support his campaign here:

http://www.robsherman.com
http://www.ilgp.org

This is excellent news actually. Rep. Monique Davis is a sponsor of HB1463 – the mandatory silence/prayer bill. The reason this is excellent news is that in previous Supreme Court arguments against school prayer, they were allowed to bring in statements made by the legislators to show that prayer was a dominant purpose of the bill – hence making it unconstitutional. I suspect Rep. Davis’ comments will become a part of Sherman’s lawsuit.

Stacy,

If you don’t understand the difference between “I don’t believe” and “I believe” I’m afraid I cannot help you. You might want to go back to school and learn it. In the meantime you might want to ask yourself why it is that you think nothing of the fact that you (I assume) don’t believe in unicorns, the tooth fairy, or little green men from Mars, yet consider it audacious that an atheist wouldn’t believe in gods for which there is as little proof as there is for the aforementioned entities.

I can safely assume the flying spaghetti monster probably does not exist, but I can’t soundly claim that it doesn’t, that would be just as foolish as to claim that it does (without documented evidence).

Why can’t you make a definite claim? You know a human being made up the FSM and it caught on for some people. The FSM doesn’t really exist and one can actually say that because it was created by a human in a effort of parody. The documented evidence is that someone, who has a great imagination and creativity, drew it and made a story line out it. They would probably attest to this too, esp if they are honest.

I love the fact that the flying spaghetti monster is equally debatable as christianity.

Wow. I consider my comment-reading habit generally unhealthy, polluting my mind with people’s inane bullshit, solely out of morbid curiosity. But here: civility? Accurately identifying logical fallacies? Asserting some points while conceding others? Getting not only refuted but flamed, then politely thanking the forum for productive discourse?

Well done, folks, you’ve restored my faith (yes, pun intended), and you’ve already made the arguments I would have made, better than I would have made them. Thank you.

And I happened upon this thread randomly; figures, it’s an atheist site producing such intelligent dialog. Peace to all, regardless of your beliefs. Hail FSM!

Brother Dave Thompson said,

April 6, 2008 at 5:01 pm

Since the FSM has total dominion over all elements of reality, he could have very well used the most holy woo-energies of the fifth sign of Udu’quanjongar to force his chosen prophets to assume that they “created him as a parody”.

What? Now that made even less sense than an actual religion.

OK then I’ll put it this way- neither make any sense and one makes even less sense.

Now you said:

#

Mriana said,

April 6, 2008 at 11:34 pm

OK then I’ll put it this way- neither make any sense and one makes even less sense.

And I won’t dispute that. But I may dispute which one makes less sense!

Base Board said,

April 4, 2008 at 6:42 pm

Still, I do think it is a dangerous thing to snatch away God from this world right now. It would be a trade off, as it is equally dangerous to have a large segemtn of the population expecting or even approving of the End of the World.

You’re missing the point here, as quite a few people also seem to be. Sherman didn’t stand up there and say “There is no god” nor did he take up an ax and start murdering religious people. Nor did he ‘snatch god away’. He was testifying about an action that is blatantly against the Illinois Constitution: The use of tax payer money to fund a church. If you check out his website you will see where he’s outlined precisely the portions of the IL Constitution that state this explicitly. The IL Constitution also states that no person can be forced to pray or not pray and that there shouldn’t be any favoritism amongst religions.

Sherman’s point is simple, public tax money ( which comes from Atheists and Wicca and Buddists and Satanists and everybody else as well as from Christians ) shouldn’t be going to prop up this church. If the Gov wanted to donate his own private money to do so, or even decided on his own time to take up a fund for people to donate money to save the church that would have been one thing. But he’s taking money from everybody and giving it to one group. That’s a problem because it sets up that one group to be better or higher than everyone else. This is the same nonsense they pull in the Office of Faith Based Initiatives. Would the Gov pull tax payer funds if a Druid grove burned down? I very much doubt it.

No one can prevent someone from praying. Theists won’t admit this but their kids ARE permitted to pray in church. What is prohibited isn’t praying but praying in a manner that is disruptive to the other children and prayer that is lead by a teacher. Would you want a bunch of Snake Handler Pentacostal kids to jump up at the front of a class during a math lesson and whip out some cobras? No. Because not only would they disrupt the class for all the kids trying to learn algebra but their manner of worship could well be dangerous for the rest of the kids. Nor would you want the Pentacostal teacher ( sorry to pick on you guys here ) teacher to stand at the head of the class and teach your kids that God says that true Christians can take up serpents and cast out demons and such. That’s how they express themselve religiously and while it might be strange to you or me ( especially me, being an Atheist). Neither the teacher, nor the Pentacostal students has the right to impose their beliefs on the rest. Not just for safety reasons but because everybody has the freedom to follow whatever path to divinity ( even if it’s no path at all ) they so choose. Government funded public school is no place for religion. Religion is something that the kid’s parents and preachers should be teaching them.

That whole ‘we’re not allowed to pray’ thing is a bullshit meme. Because if you believe your god is all knowing then how can any law possibly prohibit you.

But in any case that’s not what the hearing was about so it doesn’t matter.

How come the legislator wasn’t interrupted during her rant? Way to bring us back on topic after the fact…

“The FSM doesn’t really exist and one can actually say that because it was created by a human in a effort of parody. ”

Ooooh! His noodly appendage is gonna come down and smite you…

Also, very nice letter Sawyer Pence.

COPY
Hello again Hon. Rep. Ms. Monique D. Davis:
This may enlighten you:

THE UNIVERSE
Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God” is an impossible superfluous nonentity! J.H. © 5/8/07

AN ENSLAVING FORCE
Few people realize the extent of the reach, influence and overwhelming power of religion! Nor do many people have any idea as to the enormity of the Vatican’s financial resources! Very likely, the Vatican is the wealthiest entity by a factor of 100 that the world has ever seen. And its tax-free status, weekly and “willed” donations of millions, when added to income from all its many worldwide investments, positions those who control that fabulous bottomless pool of wealth as the world’s most influential lobbyist or purchaser! This may be one of the reasons the Pledge of Allegiance was plagiarized and altered from “one nation indivisible” to the bigoted “one nation (divided) under God.” And why 100 senators disgraced our country and themselves by reciting the religious pledge on the steps of the senate and before television beamed to the entire world! The time has come to discredit the outrageous assertions by the Ponzi-racketeering charlatans who promote the plague-like mind destroying disease religion that survives by warping the minds of innocent children and fools, robbing them of their candy and toy money, and enslaving them to a life as shills who help perpetuate the criminal religion schemes. “Secular humanists,” “non-believers” and other sane and rational people know that no proof survives the fairytales of a magician named Jesus or his magic miracles, nor is there any proof whatsoever that there is or ever was a supreme creator God! Yet this and other lies are used to perpetuate their rotten scheme religion. People who live in the “real” world refuse to accept silly lies, fairy tales and farce as fact, whether it be about “Santa Claus” “The Tooth Fairy,” “Donald Duck,” a “Jesus” or a “Creator God.” Nor should they be lumped with or considered analogous with a gang of thieving, lying, mind-warping pedophiles who use a how-to manual of pornography, pillorying, stoning to death and other forms of outright bigotry, for their weekly stimulus to more proselytizing. The senators who said that fallacious rendition of our once great Pledge of Allegiance shall be remembered as the promoters of a criminal enterprise and the abettors or cohorts of a bunch of thieving slavers who invade every phase of society with their lying assertions that “our country was founded as a Christian nation.
Their plagiarism of our once great Pledge of Allegiance, their repeated attempts to force their “Godism” on all schoolchildren, and their ever increasing use of all forms of media and gimmicks to mesmerize, indoctrinate and bludgeon American people with their outrageous, endless efforts to dominate us all with a “Theocratic” form of government renders them heinous felonious criminals!
And the likes of George W. Bush and his ilk, including Ilinois Governor Rod Blagojevich by giving millions of dollars to faith-based groups, are bidding them “Godspeed” with our hard earned tax money!

THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground. Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end.
Religion’s pollution is no solution for Darwin’s Evolution. Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence. The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind! J.H. © 8/29/06

She was named as the Worst Person In The World tonight on Countdown with Keith Olbermann. The show airs on MSNBC weeknights at 8pm/10pm & 2am Eastern Time.

Atheists are how dangerous?
More dangerous than al Qaeda?
Let’s consider such things as the war between Israel and Palestine, which has occurred due to the minute differences in rituals.
I find that such blind faith encouraged by organized religion is most dangerous.

Corrector said,

Athiests are too polite. People need to be reminded that god does not really exist and that all religions are cults based upon lies from time to time, before they become as stupid as this fellow.

This ‘fellow’ is a woman. So now who seems the stupid one.

Stacey said “There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. This is like somebody making a statement that there is no gold in China. You would have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land, in every man’s home, inside of each person mouth etc. It would not be proveable! Don’t try to argue that you say there is no God because you cannot prove th”

One doesn’t have to prove it . Just use some common sense. And your analogy about gold in China is not the same. Do you believe in pink elephants? So there’s none in your house? Have you checked Mine or your neighbors? maybe there’s one in China. And the tooth fairy? She exists right?

There is not one piece of evidence for you god. Not one. People make things. They wanted to explain the world so they assumed it also was made and made up a god to make it. Big deal. I don’t care if you believe but just quit insisting your belief should be plastered all over the public space and that you should have govt support. Keep it on your church property all you want . JUST PAY TAXES LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS!

Why is no one talking about the rest of the congressmen and women who were cheering her on and applauding her comments? In the tape, we can hear them actually encouraging her, which means they totally agree with her and are actually equally guilty but no one seems to be bothered by that.

You think that’s bad. Look at this Muslim school supported with your tax dollars: http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1

check out http://www.madnessletters.com for more on it

Well, at least she apologized.

And base board, it’s cruel to “yank” irrational beliefs away from people only if it’s cruel to tell them the truth and not let them get away with the la-la-la-can’t-hear-you trick.

Besides, who’s “yanking”? The god they believe in will be no less imaginary tomorrow than it is today, so we’re not actually taking anything away from them. When you snatch candy away from a baby then of course it will cry; but in this case, not only is there no candy, there’s no baby either!

One thing that we are failing to see (and please correct me if I’m wrong, because I haven’t had the time to fully appreciate the details of the situation) is the correlation between the Christian stance on censorship and how it is in accordance with everyone’s views on censorship. When you subscribe to a notion than you have to jade or bias yourself to support, how else can you react but with passion when in question. You certainly can’t use logic now, right? It’s what happens when “God” forbid, you use the “N” word, or make theo-political cartoon over the muslim faith. And try comparing these sects to each other.

I will say, in contrast. . . How much damage could a million dollars to a church do? Yes, it may be an unfair distribution of state funds, but hey. Christians voted these Christian politicians to pay for Christian beliefs.

This is simultaneously outrageous and unsurprising. Athiests’ rights are something that aren’t talked about very often, but maybe it’s time that they are. As an agnostic, I’ve never felt particularly in favor of the fringe “militant athiest” types who bitterly fight religion’s encroachment into any public space, but the more incidents like this occur the more important it seems to me that Athiests find a way to pool their collective force & stand up for their rights. How many people do you think it would take to do something like, say, mark “In God We Trust” off of every dollar bill in America? Probably the number is smaller than the number of Athiests in the country.

Im glad you are proud of something, hence this blog

make something happen,
why are the atheists that are trying to keep religion out of public places “militant and bitter” about their cause?
to me it makes more sense to say that the religious types are imperialistic and bitter about their opinions being known to the public. if you truly believe in what you say and do, then theres no reason to try to preach you opinions to others.you should be happy knowing the “truth”
and as far as atheists getting organized and doing something as a group, theres something inherently wrong with that. people are atheists because they think for themselves, and refuse to be herded like cattle, so good luck getting them to follow anyone.

I will say that i am inclined to agree with davis in one aspect though I must take it a different direction. Agnosticism and athiesm are not weapons but i will admit they are dangerous to the type of society people like that want to create. Just like the catholic church hundreds of years ago they realize that the easiest person to govern is one who does not think for themselves and looks to “big brother” to interperet everything for them. Many are simply programmed this way from a terrifyingly young age taking so much away from them before they even have a chance to think. This my friends, should be a crime. To maim and destroy young minds so callously and force any you can into the same death worshipping, ignorence propagating cult that wishes nothing more than to, in essense (considering these major religious react so violently to the presence of any other ideology) take over as many minds and control as much of the world as possible.
One day it will be illegal to pollute the minds of innocent young children with violent superstition, senseless hatred, and worthless predjudice. At least that is what we can hope…. one day my friends, civilization

Man i’m so sick of the bunk atheist attitude that you’re all critical thinkers.. I’ve never actually met one. Every atheist I know is entirely ignorant of religious topics. Lazy thinkers who won’t even learn about religion. “the bible is full of shit” is a common thing to here from people who, in fact, have no idea what’s inside. Right or wrong, your little group is just as groundless as many flaky Christians who also have never read their bible.

Every atheist I know is entirely ignorant of religious topics.

Then go talk to them. Don’t come trolling here.

You already have your mind made up about us.

I wish to say everything Flonkbob just said. So, ditto.

Also :

I’m more than willing to listen and put your ideas to the test. And if you convince me, I’ll admit that you were right and I was wrong.

I wish the same were true of most Christians I know. A precious few will engage in reasonable and rational debate, but the vast majority (in my experience) just plain aren’t interested. It’s too scary to admit you may be wrong and be facing an eternity in a literal lake of fire.

And I say this as a former Christian who’s entire family and circle of friends consists mainly of believers (though I don’t classify myself as an atheist… I’m kind of on the generic deist bent currently, but I’m learning and exploring).

When I was about 8 years old and in Sunday School I was aware that it might be a farce without any outside influence– my entire family was devout Catholic.

I want to go back to Sam’s question about the question of guns in school.

A good argument could be made that much more harm has been done by christinsanity in schools than has been done by guns.

I’m atheist, and I kinda agree with Davis. I mean, why not give them a moment of silence to pray and whatnot? I mean, it’s not like it hurts the atheist children. But it does hurt the theist children, or at least the parents believe so. Maybe we should ask the children what they want. No one has done that.

I am so high right now. hahaaa this song is amazing. Animal Collective’s last album, Merriweather Post Pavillion, is insane.

Christians are such caring, loving intellectual people.