It’s Dangerous for Children To Know Atheism Exists, Says Illinois State Legislator

Outspoken atheist Rob Sherman, who (with his daughter) filed a lawsuit that eventually put a stop to the Mandatory Moment of Silence, was back in the Illinois General Assembly on Wednesday.

He was there arguing Governor Rod Blagojevich‘s $1,000,000 grant to the Pilgrim Baptist Church — which was given to them via the more secular Loop Lab School. (Shadiness all around.)

Anyway, he got into an exchange with Rep. Monique Davis (D-Chicago).

You won’t believe what she said (emphasis is mine):

Davis: I don’t know what you have against God, but some of us don’t have much against him. We look forward to him and his blessings. And it’s really a tragedy — it’s tragic — when a person who is engaged in anything related to God, they want to fight. They want to fight prayer in school.

I don’t see you (Sherman) fighting guns in school. You know?

I’m trying to understand the philosophy that you want to spread in the state of Illinois. This is the Land of Lincoln. This is the Land of Lincoln where people believe in God, where people believe in protecting their children.… What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous, it’s dangerous–

Sherman: What’s dangerous, ma’am?

Davis: It’s dangerous to the progression of this state. And it’s dangerous for our children to even know that your philosophy exists! Now you will go to court to fight kids to have the opportunity to be quiet for a minute. But damn if you’ll go to [court] to fight for them to keep guns out of their hands. I am fed up! Get out of that seat!

Sherman: Thank you for sharing your perspective with me, and I’m sure that if this matter does go to court—

Davis: You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.

According to Davis, atheism is destroying the state.

Corrupt or misguided politicians have nothing to do with it, of course…

As Eric Zorn of the Chicago Tribune puts it, “consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.”

If that happened, you might have actually heard about this story by now. It would be playing on news stations everywhere. But since the attack is on atheists, this is likely the first time you’ve read anything about it.

Not enough for you? Listen to the audio of the exchange (MP3).

Infuriating, isn’t it?

(via Change of Subject)


[tags]atheist, atheism[/tags]

  • RIchard

    I’m sure the alchemists thought the knowledge that chemistry existed would corrupt their children, who would then become chemists.

  • http://atheists.meetup.com/531 benjdm

    Holy shit.

  • Siamang

    Holy crap… such hatred in her voice.

    The spooky thing is the people applauding her.

    “consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.”

    I think the thing is religious people DO react dramatically when their beliefs are attacked. Some even act like Representative Davis when faced with the mere presence of atheist philosophy!

    One reason there’s no similar outcry in this case is because atheists aren’t a bunch of thin-skinned believers who feel they must be protected at all costs from dissenting viewpoints. I don’t think there SHOULD be an outcry after this.

    This is GOOD, in my view. Yes, let’s start talking about this stuff openly. No, I don’t mean in a state assembly meeting… that’s clearly inappropriate to the business of running a state.

    I think that the message really should be that atheists aren’t afraid of talking about this, and silence HELPS those who want their bigoted views to remain unchallenged. Atheists should say, “PLEASE tell us, and let us talk about all the ways you don’t like us, or what we stand for. But we will talk about you in turn, and with all the kindness, openness and respect you give us.”

  • cautious

    Rob’s website confused me.

    “Made me feel like Rosa Parks, who also was told, “Get out of that chair,” and arrested when she didn’t give up her seat on the bus to Whitey. Now that Negroes have political power, it seems that they have no problem at all with discrimination, just as long as it isn’t them who are being discriminated against. ”

    Um… …yeah. A state Congressperson just said that atheism is bad for kids to even hear about, and that the separation of church and state is meaningless. His response was to call her an uppity black woman, and to compare his situation to that of Rosa Parks.

    Way to not win my support, Rob.

  • http://backstab.net Sam

    Someone help me sharpen my logical fallacy detection, Would the topic brought up about guns in schools be a straw man?

  • http://skepticalfoul.blogspot.com skepticalfoul

    Another “devout” thiest saying “I’m right and everyone else is wrong”. It’s no more concrete than when I say “there is no god and you’re wrong”. Weigh the evidence and make your own decisions! Oh, wait… that’s against belief isn’t it? Oopsie!

  • http://keenabean.blogspot.com Kaleena

    This makes me so sad and so mad and frustrated all at once!

  • http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/ miller

    Cautious,

    I believe that Rob was not calling Davis an uppity black woman, but was describing her as a “negro” who is now ironically on the other side of a new civil rights movement. I agree that the comparison is very poorly done.

    Sam,

    The argument with the guns is transparently an irrelevant argument. But the general thrust of it seems to be an ad hominem, as if to accuse Rob of advocating gun violence.

  • http://skepticsplay.blogspot.com/ miller

    On the optimistic side, all the comments on the news article are sympathetic!

  • http://gaytheistagenda.lavenderliberal.com/ Buffy

    I wish people would decide whether it’s atheists or gays that are destroying America. I keep getting such mixed signals from the RRRW. Of course being a gaytheist I suppose it doesn’t really matter because either way I’m “it”.

    BTW, it’s rather nostalgic seeing a story about Dawn and Rob Sherman (if something so recent can be considered nostalgic). Dawn Sherman was one of the first things I posted about when I first began blogging. I’m glad to see her case went so well and that her father hasn’t lost any of his gusto.

  • http://uncrediblehallq.blogspot.com/ Chris Hallquist

    I have a blog meme for you, if you choose to accept it:

    http://uncrediblehallq.blogspot.com/2008/04/seven-things.html

  • John

    Wow, what a mean woman.

    “Religious” people read and worship a silly book all their lives yet they rarely live by it.

  • Sam

    Sorry but going to court over a mandatory minute of silence strikes me as the most petty of things one could possibly complain about. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate the importance of being able to get potentially over-excited children to calm down, breath properly and get back under control.

    If this is the kind of stuff you think is important enough to go to court over then you really don’t have that much to complain about do you?

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  • http://www.stoptheqtip.ca/ Aditya

    There’s a great piece in Russ Kick’s “Everything You Know About God is Wrong” about how the bullshit that Davis spews is exactly against what the American state is (as it was intended by the founding fathers).

    Also, Chris, I really think you ought to look up the definition of the word “meme.” (I really hate it when people use the word “meme” to mean “something that spreads on the Interweb” – a more appropriate term is “chain letter”, or in this case “chain blog”.)

  • http://atheists.meetup.com/531 benjdm

    The Rosa Parks reference was probably to the end of the clip, where the Representative told Rob Sherman to ‘get out of that seat.’ I don’t know if she was kicking him out of the room or the session or what, but it definitely seemed like she was trying to kick him out of something.

  • http://atheistisland.wordpress.com/ Unspeakabley Violent Jane

    As Christianity dies, those that remain – those who have backed themselves into the worst possible corner, and who’s psyches render them incapable of eating crow – are likely to be the most infused with Christian Love(TM) that any of us have ever seen.

  • Calantorntain

    Wow. How horrid.

    But, I can sort of see what he is saying. In middle school I became agnostic (and a bit later on an atheist). The reason I did not convert before that? I never actually realized atheists and agnostics existed. Not believing in god had not occured to me as an option. But, as soon as a realized nontheists existed, I realized I was one of them.

  • Mriana

    Where in the world does he get the idea that it is dangerous for kids to know atheism exists? :roll: IMHO, it is more dangerous for them to know religion exists.

  • Owen

    Here is her email addy

    mdavis@hdsmail.state.il.us

    Be sure to let her know your thoughts.

    Owen

  • http://www.thankgodforatheists.com jason

    Actually, I would believe what he said. This kind of thing is happening more and more.

  • chatterbox

    The theists think that it’s dangerous for kids to even know that atheism even exists because it can plant seeds of doubt. And as theists know very well, if you can what the kids learn about, you can control their viewpoints. It’s a survival mechanism for their religion, don’t let the kids learn about anything else or they might *gasp* have to think for themselves and make informed decisions.

  • Aj

    Rep. Monique Davis seems to be an idiot. Why isn’t he fighting guns in school? Last time I checked their wasn’t a law requiring students to carry guns in school. I’m pretty sure students aren’t supposed to have guns in school.

    Talking about dangerous, destructive philosophies; guess which church this person goes to, which pastor is congratulated on his retirement in a resolution she introduced. You guessed Wright? Right! It seems that this person goes to Trinity, where the pastors are slightly more racist than usual.

  • http://www.stumplane.us/blog Montag

    “consider what the outcry would have been if a lawmaker had launched a similar attack on the beliefs of a religious person.”

    Here’s a quick-and-dirty rewrite of Davis’ remarks:

    I don’t understand your obsession with God, but some of us don’t have so much faith. We don’t all necessarily feel that what we experience in this life are His blessings. It’s really a tragedy — it’s tragic — when a person who is engaged in anything related to God, they want to fight. They want mandatory prayer in school.

    I don’t see you fighting to teach critical thinking or the scientific method in school. You know?

    I’m trying to understand the religion that you want to spread in this state. This is the State, separate from church and God, where people believe in protecting their children. What you have to spew and spread is extremely dangerous.

    It’s dangerous to the progression of this state. And it’s dangerous for our children to even know that your religion exists!

    You have no right to be here! We believe in something. You believe in destroying! You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.

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  • http://atheistisland.wordpress.com/ Unspeakabley Violent Jane

    I just want to thank Davis for this public announcement that is sure to make atheism more interesting and provocative for the children of Chicago.

  • scottaco

    I find it interesting considering the fact that Lincoln, himself, was an atheist for most of his life.

  • Roach

    Spirituality and the desire to believe in something higher than oneself is not harmful and can be quite inspiring at times. It is the organization of religion and the passing of judgment which should sicken us all. How many times does the Bible have to say it? Leave the judging to God! People were not created with free will and liberty to be shoved into these little belief boxes. We should be inspiring children to expand their knowledge of God and the entire universe. Do not hold your children back because you are afraid they will question your beliefs. You should question your beliefs and form new ideas. We should provide the path for kids and let them be the light. God is not the answer. He is only the beginning, and he is each of us.

  • Bdox

    Sam,

    notice that it’s fair to say that parents are not arming their children but are stuffing their heads with illogical superstitions.

    But more to the point, the argument that the state was built on religion is preposterous. It was created by the establishment of some artificial boundaries across land owned by native Americans. So, it would be a more sensible argument to say that the state was built on theft of lands.

    Buffy, well said!!!

  • Paul

    “Someone help me sharpen my logical fallacy detection, Would the topic brought up about guns in schools be a straw man?”

    More like a red herring: the arguer is intentionally drawing some conclusion to distract from the actual situation at hand. Both are fallacies of [ir]relevance.

  • Steve Rush

    Actually, I don’t see anything wrong with a mandated moment of silence, as long as the law specified that the teacher could not demand anything but *silence.* The kids are then free to use it to mentally review for the test they are about to take, or speculate on what the teacher would look like without her clothes. If the school tries to require prayer, that’s another matter, although the best plaintiff in that case would not be an atheist, but a member of an out-of-favor cult.

  • http://www.unscrewingtheinscrutable.com Brent Rasmussen

    You guessed Wright? Right! It seems that this person goes to Trinity, where the pastors are slightly more racist than usual.

    Really? Obama’s fellow church members scare me. Maybe enough to sway my vote.

  • Progression?

    Yes, it is natural to believe that if an idea is omitted from the education of a child, it will cease to have any influence in their life. But what good is this in our world today. 200 years ago there was no fear of global warming, much different than today. Instead the fears of people were consumed by things like Heaven and Hell. Why not allow all ideas relative to our time and our world today be a factor in education? Atheism is a real belief, not an abomination to the beliefs of those who choose to believe in god.

  • jesmo5

    It amazes me how these people will invoke the name of this country’s forefathers, yet have NO idea what those people stood for. She says that “this is the land of Lincoln where people believe in God”. However, Lincoln himself made many atheistic statements.
    Abraham Lincoln

    “The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma.”

    - Abraham Lincoln, American president (1809-1865).

    Many of our founding fathers had very real issues with Christian dogma, and felt that it was a problem.

  • Stacey

    There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. This is like somebody making a statement that there is no gold in China. You would have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land, in every man’s home, inside of each person mouth etc. It would not be proveable! Don’t try to argue that you say there is no God because you cannot prove there is! You cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up. At least admit that YOU DON’T KNOW and take your first step toward agnosticism. Only then will you become more rational and realize that having faith is something we all exhibit whether it be in God or anything else.

  • http://www.madnessletters.com Bradyn

    It’s MADNESS to let children know anything other then the creation story. Their tiny brains can’t take it. It’s Madness I tell you Madness! What a joke. http://www.madnessletters.com

  • http://dcberner.blogspot.com Derek

    Land of Lincoln?

    Abraham Lincoln, the president that abolished slavery and saved America from dissolution, was a Deist. He believed that God basically leaves us to our own devices. IOW, a practical atheist.

    How can she possibly invoke the name of Lincoln to contest atheism? Not only is it a fallacious appeal to authority, it’s an appeal to the wrong authority!

  • Vic

    Interestingly, you cannot e-mail Ms. Davis because she refuses to provide her e-mail address to the public. (I just got off the phone with her office.) I plan to write her and send it via USPS. Her intolerance and ignorance cannot go unexcused.

  • http://raspk.blogspot.com/ Panagiotes Koutelidakes

    Now that was… absolutely infuriating. Thank you for putting this up.

  • http://www.google.co.uk Corrector

    Athiests are too polite. People need to be reminded that god does not really exist and that all religions are cults based upon lies from time to time, before they become as stupid as this fellow.

  • Kevin

    Anyone who would say something like this, and those who applaud them, have incredibly weak faith in their own religion. Any person is a strong faith would simply say, “I disagree” rather than being threatened by a simple concept that is different than their own view of the world. If your rights aren’t being infringed upon, what does it matter what someone else thinks, religious or not?

  • kenny

    Completely shocking. And from a Democrat! I’m ashamed.

    yeah, Lincoln said some pretty disparaging stuff about christianity.

    This is terrifying. The general public supports discrimination against atheists, it seems. That’s why we need more prominent people to speak out as atheists.

  • http://heathendad.blogspot.com/ HappyNat

    I thought the same thing, Derek.
    “When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. That’s my religion.”
    Abraham Lincoln

  • Spence

    Wow, this is really infuriating, I truly hate theists like this. Some theists
    ( you know, the ones who don’t force everything down your throats?) I can actually befriend and be happy with, but then theres the ones that shove their beliefs down your throat… ohh and to Sam, I believe this is a fear mongering argument ( I forget the rhetorical term) with a few straw man fallacies thrown in.

  • Brittan

    Rep. Monique Davis seems to be an idiot.

    Precisely, but she is clearly one of their best. Hate and ignorance flow from her mouth very well!

    It seems that everything she said had no bearing on the situation, was completely inappropriate, and utterly fallacious. I just wish some people would realize what a detriment their “views” are to the future of the HUMAN RACE. If we continue as a theist nation/world, we will undoubtedly encounter a future that is more terrible and real than any HELL described in any one of the hundreds of holy books at your local Barnes and Noble. Violent clashing b/t religions, a constant battle of “good and evil”, an unhealthy, poorly educated population that relies on dog’s “blessings”, an Earth depleted of the resources necessary to maintain such a self-serving society. Now that, my atheistic friends, will be the day that Jesus will NOT fly down on a cloud and condemn us to fire. But people will still look for him!

    This, I believe, is the greatest threat to the human race, as it encompasses all of our worst nightmares into one ignorant, uninformed, but easily transmittable viewpoint that was created solely to keep a populus in check while giving one a false sense of hope for a future that will never come except in your wildest prayers.

    Our hope lies in the minds of those who can see the whole picture, the whole cosmos, and from that understand that there is no life after death, only here and now. How can anyone profess to be educated yet still base their entire being on an imaginary friend? I don’t know, and I know you don’t either.

    PS.
    Let’s not sit back and let that stuff happen.

  • tim

    To be fair, the Illinois Constitution begins “We, the People of the State of Illinois – grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He has permitted us to enjoy and seeking His blessing upon our endeavors – …”

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  • Pete

    This woman is DANGEROUS and IGNORANT. From the perspective of someone from overseas looking in she does nothing for America’s image. But then that’s what religion does, does it not – discourages LEARNING in favour of FAITH. It’s certainly worked well on her!

  • Lynda Joy

    Their is this underlying principle in America that is quite recurring in a manifold of “controversial” issues that seems ancient and rather primitive to me. This principle is evidenced by a consistent disregard for the individual to decide what is best for him or herself. It’s a blatant contradiction to the “individualistic” nation that America prides itself on being, and yet…no one really seems to notice this obvious fact nor care, and instead we use competition via debating various viewpoints to represent a false individuality. The belief that children are born as sinful creatures who must be “straightened out” by adults and religion is absurd in modern day, and yet it seems almost to be a principle in justifying why children should not be exposed to atheism. It is my firm belief that nothing should ever be hidden or undisclosed; it’s not fair to the individual. No upbringing or education should be too exclusive. We should — especially at this point in time, or even BY NOW — be teaching a well-rounded curriculum and providing an upbringing for our children that exposes them to a wide array of options for beliefs with only the necessary perimeters. And…anyway, I think that it is natural, knowing the concept of a god, for a child to eventually conjure and question the concept of a non-god. And what does Ms. Davis suppose that we tell our children then? It’s absolutely absurd; it’s an insult to the individual as an entity capable of original thought.

  • http://www.theflowfieldunity.com Adam_Y

    I don’t normally link to my own work, but I think this comic says it best:

    Input Out

  • yer mom

    oh, man… don’t tell her that lincoln was NOT a xtian. her head will explode! i suppose nothing will come out, though.

    btw, other historical figures who were NOT xtian: washington, adams, quincy adams, jefferson, franklin, madison.

    …to name a few.

  • http://www.kobrascorner.com Kobra

    Wow…. I can’t believe I just read what I read.

    My brain hurts now.

  • Bebe

    We believe in destroying?
    The last time I saw the definition of an Athiest (I am one) is that we didn’t believe in anything

    But I guess by her definition.. we believe in something, and that is.. destroying.
    What a tool. Lol

  • http://gaytheistagenda.lavenderliberal.com/ Buffy

    Sorry but going to court over a mandatory minute of silence strikes me as the most petty of things one could possibly complain about. You don’t have to be religious to appreciate the importance of being able to get potentially over-excited children to calm down, breath properly and get back under control.

    If this is the kind of stuff you think is important enough to go to court over then you really don’t have that much to complain about do you?

    Sam, no matter what they call these “moments of silence” the intent behind them is always religious in nature. They are meant to sneak prayer/religion into the schools. The easiest way to know this is 1. Look to see who sponsors the bills to put them into the schools (always religious individuals). 2. Listen to who screams loudest when anybody demands they be taken out of the schools (always religious individuals).

  • John

    Stacey said:

    If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God

    Not one atheist claims that. Please go learn something about atheism.

  • http://gaytheistagenda.lavenderliberal.com/ Buffy

    Stacy,

    How can you say there is no such thing as an atheist? Are you saying you are a-atheistic? If you make an absolute statement that there are no atheists, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. ;-)

    Are you unaware that most atheists do not actually say “there is no God” but instead “I don’t believe in god(s)”. There’s a distinction there, and that’s what makes the difference between a weak/implicit/agnostic atheist and a strong/explicit atheist.

    This might help clarify matters a bit.
    http://atheism.about.com/od/aboutatheism/p/atheism101.htm

  • Brittan

    The funniest thing about this whole thing is that she actually thinks God wants her to say these things. She is doing this, so she has been told on Sundays in an Illinois church, for His will. Thats a great way to exercise mental sloth, which I’m afraid is all too common throughout the American demographic.

    She no longer has to explore other points of view, her brain activity decreases, and she becomes a monster of god’s will. How scary, she holds public office in America? Oh, wait, theres a lot of idiots in this country.

    Religion all too often leads to a perspective that inhibits the advancement of a person in all aspects of life. Sucks for them. I find myself getting angry, but then I just feel bad cause what a waste.

    If one is to Love god, truly love your imaginary friend, you develop an addiction. It has been scientifically validated that the processes in the brain while in love directly mirrors the effects of cocaine usage. What a great way to create a bunch of SHEEP; a self-sustaining addiction that’s FREE (unless you are a christian, scientologist, etc.) and spreads like a disease.

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  • Siamang

    Stacy the Ray Comfort quoter said:

    There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. This is like somebody making a statement that there is no gold in China. You would have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land, in every man’s home, inside of each person mouth etc. It would not be proveable!

    You cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up. At least admit that YOU DON’T KNOW and take your first step toward agnosticism.

    Stacy,

    If you make an absolute statement that there is no such thing as an atheist, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this.

    Unless you can look inside the brains of every single human being on the planet, and understand their reasoning exactly perfectly, there is no way you can make the absolute statement that there is no such thing as an atheist.

    You merely have FAITH there is no such thing as an atheist. I on the other hand, AM an atheist, and therefore I have first-hand understanding of my belief in atheists, and do not need faith in the existence or non-existence of atheists.

    As you yourself wrote: you cannot make an absolute statement and try to rationalize it by using the negative argument. It does not hold up.

    In other words, it doesn’t take faith to believe that atheists exist. You, however, have faith that we do not. That’s a very strange belief-system you have there. In order for you to assert what you assert, you’d have to be able to look inside my mind.

    At least admit that you don’t know and take your first step toward atheist-agnosticism. :-)

    Cheers, and may you find the peace and truth you seek, friend. Most of us here have taken a long journey to find ourselves at the place we are today. Many of us here once believed as you believe. Seek to learn about our journeys before you condemn us. Jesus himself would do no less.

  • Gregg

    If you wish to let Rep. Davis know how you feel about her bigotry, you can find her email at http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=6317

  • Flonkbob

    Owen, thanks for the email address. I was happy to let the willfully ignorant representative of ‘The Land of Lincoln’ know how I felt. I’m sure it will go unread, but it made me feel a little better.

    Stacey… I’m an atheist. I’m real. I just pinched myself, so I know it’s true. It’s like people I know who ask “Don’t you believe in the Bible?” Of course I have to say “I do believe in it! I’ve SEEN one!”

    Flonkbob

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  • d

    Land of Lincoln? Maybe someone should inform this woman that Honest Abe wasn’t a Christian.

  • http://namakajiri.net Leonardo Boiko
  • Stacey

    Siamang/Buffy (and anybody else),

    First of all it was not Ray Comfort, it was Kirk Cameron. What difference does it make? If it was gold in China or pink and purple Cadillacs the fact still remains that if you make a definite statement that there is no God, then you should be able to prove it. I do know many atheists who say there is no god(s)/God or don’t beleive in god(s)/God. How are you doing to say that you don’t believe in god(s)/God but say that you are not saying there is no god(s)/God? If you say that you do not believe in deity (i.e. denying His existence), how is that any different from saying “there in no god(s)/God?”

    Next, Siamang you obviously don’t realize that absolute true truth DOES exist. I never said it did not. I only said that you cannot make THAT absolute statement of there being no God, as that is NOT a universal truth. 2+2=4 is an absolute statement of truth that can be made. A (not, against) theism (God) intrinsically is a position, belief or affirmation that there is no God.

  • jimbonics

    Kneel before Zod!

    Oh, and Rep. Davis is a Twit.

  • Siamang

    If you say that you do not believe in deity (i.e. denying His existence), how is that any different from saying “there in no god(s)/God?”

    I’m saying that nobody proved any gods exist, so I’m not going to worship that which I suspect is the figment of Ray Comfort’s imagination.

    As I said before, our paths are different than yours. And we find ourselves at a different place in our journeys than you find yourself at this time in your journey.

    Right now, and with your attitude, you sound like a streetcorner zealot, and incidentally nothing like Jesus, a person who by most accounts was a thoughtful listener who attempted to meet people where they were in their journey.

    Join us here, and listen to us. Learn our stories before you damn us, as Comfort has, as fools.

  • John

    If you say that you do not believe in deity (i.e. denying His existence), how is that any different from saying “there in no god(s)/God?”

    Well do you deny THE GREAT FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER (praised be his name)? It takes faith to deny his existence, right?

  • Flonkbob

    Stacey….

    Well! Kirk Cameron. That makes ALL the difference.

    Atheists say there is no proof of god. There IS NO PROOF that god exists. None. And if you’re going to make the claim for god then you have to give the proof for god. Otherwise it’s the same as Russell’s Teapot. Your belief does not make anything true.

    Finally, as Carl Sagan said “Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.” Is there any more extraordinary claim than an Ultimate Being?

  • http://backstab.net Sam

    Lincoln, Illinois???

  • Graham Shaw

    I have always thought that we all should think free about the life. The parents who wouldn’t allow their childrens to think for their self about life and what it means are stopping their childrens to understand about life. To me it shows a very small confidence about what science has found out since the religion dogma stopped people thinking free.

  • Claire

    Stacey, you’ve convinced me! I now believe in Thor! Thanks so much for opening my eyes. Excuse me, I have a sacrifice to make now….

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  • Stacey

    Flankbob,

    You say there is NO proof that God exists. Where is the proof? This goes back to my original statement of an absolute claim. Then you try to prove your position by stating the negative. Well, you can’t prove there is a God, so there isn’t… Come on now…you and I and everybody else know, that is NOT proof. Try that in a court of law.

    Siamang,

    “Right now, and with your attitude, you sound like a streetcorner zealot, and incidentally nothing like Jesus, a person who by most accounts was a thoughtful listener who attempted to meet people where they were in their journey.

    What attitude? I thought this was an intelligent dialogue, not a street corner. Clearly your emotions are getting the best of you. Frankly, I am doing what Jesus did. I am meeting YOU right where YOU are… I am listening to you (just as Jesus did)…and I am just showing you a different way to see things (just as Jesus did).

    Carl Sagan makes a good point. However, if you ignore or deny the evidence then there is no one else at fault but yourself. See, why do you think men argue? People argue because we stand up for what we believe is right. You do it, I do it we all do it. That is why we are here. But why do we all believe we are right. Does that “rightness” exist within us? Absolutely not, if it did there would be nothing left to argue about. We could point out that “rightness” and that would be the end. Since this “rightness” does not exist in man we have to be comparing our outlook on something bigger, something higher than ourselves.

  • Flonkbob

    Stacy,

    I’m not the one making a claim for something. You’re trying to twist it to fit your agenda, but the fact remains I don’t have any reason to believe anything without proof. Anyone who posits a god is the one with a claim. The burden of proof is on the theist, not the atheist. I refuse to accept that burden for you.

    And YOU try going into a court of law and claiming “You murdered that man. I just KNOW it’s true! It’s up to you to prove you didn’t.” Wrong. It’s up to the one with the claim to prove that claim. There. Is. No. Proof.

    If you have some, I’m listening.

  • Claire

    Stacey said,

    You say there is NO proof that God exists. Where is the proof?

    You might want to consider taking a basic logic course to keep you from embarrassing yourself with statements like this. Most community colleges have them, it would be worth your while.

    The burden of proof is on the one who asserts the positive – you prove a god exists, if you can. But please, NOT HERE, that’s NOT what this blog is for. Feel free to get your own blog to preach from.

  • Peter

    “This is what our state is built upon”

    Does anyone find it frightening that elected officials seem to have the least knowledge about the fundamental tenets of U.S. Constitution? The ideas that actually went behind the founding of this country?

    We need to stop voting for people like this.

  • Claire

    Unless, Stacey, you have a proof we haven’t heard a hundred times already? In that case, bring it on! But first, please go back and read all the old posts to see what we have already before, so we don’t have to demolish the same arguments for what feels like the zillionth time.

    Sorry, the server wouldn’t let me finish my previous post in edit mode. I miss the live preview feature, I wish that still worked.

  • cobweb

    What the fuck? I am so disgusted I’m having trouble articulating it. I guess the only thing I can say is that, it is fundamentally unhealthy to need to believe in unseen mystical consciousnesses or forces to the degree that you actually fear others not believing it too. This sounds to me like the symptom of someone who has a sense that what they are doing is wrong so they try to peer pressure those in proximity to do it to so that it seems less bad or absurd. I don’t need to explain my reality or universe with anything other than logic, physic, and the scientific method. Figuring out the incredible majesty and complexity of nature is enough for me, it needs no spiritual ornament to make it compelling. I simply do not need to believe in mysticism and superstition to find reality fulfilling. In addition I would add that it is insulting and ignorant to assume that religion has a monopoly on morality. I feel fierce loyalty to justice, the public good, fairness, progress, order, and freedom. I live by the rule that I should treat others as I would like to be treated. In my social decision making process I always attempt to select the most harmonious course of action, and not because I believe in some supernatural being that will punish or reward me, or that expects something. I act this way, and believe this way, because it is an evolutionary imperative. Man is a social creature who works in groups, and thrives in groups. Behaving in a way that maintains a spirit of cooperation and order is beneficial to all partners and allows them to achieve more than they could were they isolated. So it is LOGICAL to be MORAL in a society.

  • Leetamus

    Like it or not, this is a country founded by christians, hence the god reference on our money.. I’m surprised everyone is so blown away by this sort of thing, you live in a christian country for gods sake! (pun intended because i enjoy puns :D)

    On another note, why do christians often sound so psychotic, it totally goes against the teachings of christ haha they scare me

    ps the comments about theists wanting to hide alternate views is completely wrong. one moron spouting ignorance does not mean all theists think this way. Many are very critical thinkers, they have to be when everyone questions their beliefs. I’ve had many a good conversation with theists.

  • Vlad

    You can’t prove that God does not exist. Like you can’t prove that there is no Santa Claus. Some believe in Santa Claus – some not ;)

  • DawkinsSupporter

    Stacy:

    First of all, I want to thank you for posting here! Your views conflict with most of the inhabitants of this comment-thread. And whenever conflicting views are present, discussion is bound to happen, and in my opinion, it’s always a good thing to have reasoned discussion. So I’m glad you’re here.

    (Plus it allows us atheists to hone our deadly blades of logic ;) )

    In response to what you have said regarding the existance/non-existance of god, you are claiming that “Because we cannot know for 100% certain that no god exists, there must be a god”. This is (as has been pointed out a few times) a logical fallacy, as it relies upon the Burden of Proof (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof ).

    Since you are asserting the existence of something, the burden of proof falls upon you. (Otherwise, if the burden of proof was on the person asserting the non-existence of something, everything would have to be proved to not-exist: For example, if the burden of proof was on people to disprove things, everything from flat-earths to unicorns to aliens would have to be exhaustively disproved, a process that would essentially take forever and therefore is not worth talking about).

    What this all boils down to is that it is not the burden of the atheist to prove that god does not exist, it is the burden of proof of the theist to prove that god exists.

    Regardless of the actual existence/non-existence of god, Atheists are not saying: “there is absolutely no god”. They are saying “I have no proof of a god, hence, I don’t believe in him/her/it”. For example, you yourself are an atheist if you don’t believe in Thor, greek god of thunder. You don’t believe in Thor because you have no proof he exists, hence, you are a “Thor-atheist”. (With regards to Burden of Proof again, you would then have to go about proving that he doesn’t exist if you claimed he didn’t. Fortunately for you, you don’t have to go about proving the pantheon of gods don’t exist because the burden of proof is not on you in this case – it’s on the person asserting the existence of these gods.)
    As atheists, we just go one more god past Thor and the others. We believe in 0 gods, while you believe in 1.

    In conclusion, the burden of proof of god is on the person asserting the existence of god, and besides atheists don’t believe there is a god – gods actual existence or non-existence is pretty meaningless to us.

    I hope you continue to question Stacy. Through questions come answers, and understanding. Nothing good can come from not asking questions.

  • Alex

    Flonkbob, while yes there is no proof of the existence of God, the converse is also true: there is no proof of Gods non-existence. And by God here, I’m not talking about say the Christian God in particular, I’m making a statement about a generic higher power that exists outside of our space-time, and since until we fully understand the Laws which govern our own space-time, we cannot begin to show what God is like should he exist since we have no Laws and reality with which to compare it with.
    Also, any comparison Stacy or Flonkbob to a court of law is ridiculous since in a court of law, the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing is there to prevent a miscarriage of justice and not ruin someone’s life, so there, the burden is on the one with the claim to prove its claim and not the defendent (unless the prosecutors do offer evidence in which case the defendent would be stupid not to offer their evidence). However with a proof/disproof of God, no such ruination of lives can happen so if someone contends that for 100% definite there is a God or there isn’t one then they need to show why if questioned.
    There is nothing in science so far that has proven or disproven a creator’s existence. Just because the Bible isn’t accurate (we know that the Big Bang and Evolution are what have happened not Genesis) doesn’t mean that a creator didn’t set the universe off with the Big Bang and told the universe to follow the laws of physics. That’s my personal belief that there is a creator but not involved with the universe’s goings on since the Big Bang but its not proven so I could be absolutely wrong. However at the present moment there is ROOM for God in science but not a NEED for him/her/it/whatever. God could be a table for all we know! Or there might be no God.
    As I said its my belief that there is some sort of God outside space-time but its just my guess, with the non-existence of any evidence to the contrary or even for it the reason why I hold such a belief. If one day I’m offered proof of God’s existence or non-existence, I’ll do my best to understand it (its likely to be pretty hefty going!) and then back it with the uttermost passion.

  • http://www.saintgasoline.com Saint Gasoline

    Holy crap! She’s right! Why isn’t this Sherman character fighting the much more important battle involving the “Mandatory bring a gun to school” legislation that was recently pa…oh…wait…

  • http://jtron.livejournal.com jesse

    I seem to recall another Sherman who went up against a Davis, and one can only hope history repeats itself here.

  • http://danielholter.com/about Daniel Holter

    Absolutely staggering.

    Thanks for the information, seriously. We need more people holding others accountable, on all sides of the debate.

  • tom

    Stacey ——-

    there aint no god, we come to this conclusion because we studied science to find out answers to our our fractured faith. you will realise too its all bullshit.
    do u know what a partical is? can you try and imagen how big the universe is – i struggle. could you understand the latest answer to universal unification the string theory? if you havent looked you have no business defending a magic man with a beard in the clouds. you spend all your time Hopeing, while the rest of us spend it THINKING.—because of this, theres more chance of my athiest answer being more accurate than yours. plus, your anologys suck.

  • Vespuchio

    A whole lot of people in America find comfort in being told what to do and simply following tradition. To them, thinking for yourself and taking responsibility to figure out what’s right and what’s wrong, is a recipe for chaos. To imagine or be confronted by people who aren’t held by such fascist constraints is their worst fear.

  • bboy

    People, get a life. You put these people in office. You have to live with the consequences. If you are unhappy with the level of thinking exhibited by your elected officials, then perhaps you should look further afield for electable candidates.

  • Adam

    John said “Not one atheist claims that. Please go learn something about atheism.”

    I make that statement and if there was a large group of people who believed in the Flying Spagetti monster or whatever else I’d make the same statement to them. My position is not agnostic because there is no testable evidence for any deity, no evidence and no theory means the idea has a value of zero so I can happily state that ‘God’ does not exist, there is no evidence to suggest I need to weakly waver.

    As for the article all I can say is that I am glad I do not live in the United States, I would fine the creeping religious lobby intolerable.

  • Alex

    Oh on the issue above it seems to be about this legislation to make prayer mandatory for the schools over there. That seems stupid, its your choice if you wish to pray or not.
    However I don’t get what the women was saying about keeping the church(es) for historical reasons. Thats fair enough but is someone trying to remove the actual church(es) themselves? I would like to know.
    Still comparing this issue to standing against guns in school, erm guns are illegal for children surely so why need to take a stand in that respect? Making a stand there doesn’t require a change in law whereas standing against this bill would do if it came through.
    I see no bill to legalize guns in schools, although I’m British so maybe I haven’t looked deep enough into this American issue.

  • Charles

    I have family that are dellusional “christians”! Catholisism is a tyranical cult, like Islam. I think christian = hypocrite and fear monger. Some of them don’t practice what they read. They like to pick and choose passages that suits them for which ever occasion. I have read the bible! Just cuz i want to know exactly what i’m criticizing .It has some interesting messages and ideas, but you shouldn’t base a government around it and trick people into it. Religion is the best mind control ever created.

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  • Stacey

    Hey guys,

    Thanks so much for the great dialogue. I really enjoyed it. I have to go now, but would have liked to continue. The server went down for a while and now I have to leave.

    Have a great weekend!

  • http://hjhop.blogspot.com Bing McGhandi

    Sam, I would call it a red herring, not a straw man. Completely beside the point.

    HJ

  • http://mypantstheatre.blogspot.com bullet

    Why is everyone feeding the troll?

    Also:
    Britain said,

    She no longer has to explore other points of view, her brain activity decreases, and she becomes a monster of god’s will

    I recently came acroos a better term for this, though, I regret to say, I cannot remember where.

    Godbot. Isn’t that just perfect?

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  • Dan

    I am an atheist myself, but i do agree with stacey that it is just as bold to definitively claim that there is NO god. The very question of whether or not god exists is irrational because it is not a testable hypothesis. It would be like making the general argument that blue is ‘better’ than red. Since it is not possible to conceive of a test for this hypothesis (at least not without defining specific criteria, changing the argument) it falls outside the reach of the scientific method and rational discourse.

    The existence of god is not the issue, but rather the faith (or lack of faith) in that existence. In this context, labeling oneself an atheist does not suggest an opposition to faith, but simply a different opinion. My preference for red has no impact on your preference for blue and is obviously nothing to get agitated about. However, if you decree that my philosophy of red is dangerous and start trying to splash me with blue paint, we have a problem, and it’s not that you like blue, it’s that you’re a jerk.

  • http://polyanima.blogspot.com Base Board

    I am not an atheist. I rather like Maher’s quote about inventing a word for not believing in vampires or Flying Spaghetti Monsters. Still, I do think it is a dangerous thing to snatch away God from this world right now. It would be a trade off, as it is equally dangerous to have a large segemtn of the population expecting or even approving of the End of the World. I do say we need to tolerate Christianity at least until people are not such fuckwit homunculi.

    So get comfortable there. We’re in for a long wait.

    Personally, I think it is absurd to remove the moments of silence be them for religious or national reasons.

  • Scott Z

    “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.”
    Thomas Jefferson

  • http://www.woolgatheringfool.com lukasz kazimierz

    She’s right, you know. The children knowing that atheism exists is dangerous. It’s dangerous to those assholes who indoctrinate them with religion. It’s dangerous because if the supply of new sheep is exhausted then they those in power are dead and gone and their legacy will die with them.

  • http://chrismay.org Chris

    Stacy,

    You said:
    You say there is NO proof that God exists. Where is the proof?

    You don’t need proof to not believe in something.

    There are an infinite number of things that I don’t believe. In fact, there are also an infinite number of things that YOU don’t believe in. In fact, there are countless gods that YOU don’t believe in. You are in fact an atheist when it comes to countless gods that have been professed over the years.

    So you see, you didn’t need any “proof” that the flying spaghetti (sp) monster was not real, and I don’t need any proof that your god is not real.

    Also as some other people pointed out, atheists don’t say explicitly “I know 100% for sure that there is no god”, they say “there is no evidence for god, so I have no reason to believe in one, any more than I have reason to believe that there are magic dwarfs hidden in my room who only come out when I go to sleep” Now, if I open my eyes and happen to catch one of these dwarfs, then I will become a believer in the magical dwarfs living in my bedroom, but until then, I have no reason to believe in them, or god. They are equal in that sense.

  • Claire

    Bullet, that word was used in a quote once here, is that what you were trying to remember? And yes, it’s perfect for those who have left thought behind and are just running on program.

    Stacey, glad you were here. So few people actually leave thank you notes, it comes as a shock to see one. Hope you can come back again sometime…

  • http://www.rekounas.org rekounas

    What an absolute c#nt!

    They let her get off topic and rip this guy a new one, and when he tries to defend himself, they shut him up. Outstanding! I don’t know how he kept his cool. I can remember a time when I had to go to court for an unpaid parking ticket and I made way more noise then he did. Who the hell is she? What right does she have?

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  • Rick Miller

    That woman’s tirade was totally out of order. The moderator’s words at the end made it clear that she was WAY off on a tangent, asking something about a musician and then setting up a straw man and getting all huffy and loud…

    She should be ashamed of herself and so should whoever was *supposed* to be in charge of those proceedings.

  • Trouble

    Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron? That gave me the lulz.

  • black

    um no offense to anyone who supports Sherman or any atheist in general but i don’t feel either way because even though Monique Davis’s comments were out of line Sherman is kind of an asshole. he uses hes children to fight his battles in public schools and because of that his children well to put it politely aren’t really all that popular… at all. in fact in the same suit talked about in the first paragraph of the article he not only sued Blagojevich but the superintendent of district she attends school at the principal of the school she goes to and the teacher who teaches the period that the moment of silence takes place in all of which had no part in the lawmaking process and all who would have been fired if the law hadn’t been followed

  • Hugo Romero

    “I do not feel inclined to believe that the same God that endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forgo their use.” – Galileo (read this on the internet before, dont know how reliable a quote that is)

    Does this kind of sentiment remind anyone else of communism/fascism? This lady needs to go watch the Wizard of OZ a few times, to really cement her fears about atheism.

  • Anna Rathburn

    You believe in destroying what this state was built upon.

    And that would be what, lofty thinking?
    Or perhaps something that offers no proof of existance.
    Either way, separation of church and state should be enough to make her blatantly wrong.

  • Jason

    What can be done to stop these religious zealots? This should be offensive to everyone, christian, muslim, anti-theist, you name it.

    I think now might be a good time to expose them all(public officers) for their religions and then have them fight it out for who’s is right.

    “My god’s better than your god”

    “No my god’s better than your god”

    etc. ad infinitum.

  • http://PERFECTGROOVES.COM Gavin McNiece

    Religion is the cause of the most destructive mental illness in the human race.

  • Arturo

    Appaling!

    Ignorance at it’s best. I bet this lady doesn’t even know what atheism means anyway. She’s been spoon fed nonsense all her life.

  • http://mypantstheatre.blogspot.com bullet

    Claire said,

    …that word was used in a quote once here, is that what you were trying to remember?

    Wow, how embarrassing. :) But no, it was in a comment thread on another blog that I arrived at through a link maze that I don’t remember. Glad to know it’s current. :)

  • http://watchscrubsfree.blogspot.com Daniel Larsson

    Well, I rarely use harsh words in comments but really! What a dumb cunt!

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  • thin and weak

    There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dares not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not rational, he becomes furious when they are disputed. – Bertrand Russell

    The issue here guys, is insecurity. When you fear the unknown so badly that you cling to nonsense to force yourself into a false sense of security…. you want other people to believe too, if they don’t, it shatters your security. We cant have that, can we? Pure. Unadulterated. Insecurity……..

  • http://www.trynemjoel.com Trynemjoel

    Wait, did he not even get to respond to those silly accusations afterwards? Wow, it’s scary how people holding a poltical position go about discussing this issue.

    On a sidenote, wasn’t Lincoln a Deist?

  • Jon

    Stacey – you are clearly stupid with your “no such thing as atheism” rant

    a) you clearly don’t “have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land” in order to know that god doesn’t exist – since according to Christians god is everywhere, you can prove the non-existence of god by showing a single spot where god doesn’t exist

    b) It is for the “pro” argument to prove god does exist, you can’t prove a negative, as any fule kno

    c) I know absolutely that god does not exist – i am not a “non-believer” (that slightly belittling term religious people use), I have absolute knowledge that god does not exist.

    btw, your own argument applies the other way too – since you can’t prove god does exist, you must therefore be on the road to agnosticism

    Your post is another example of religious people saying “ooh you can’t attack me for my religion, but i feel perfectly OK attacking someone because they know god doesnt exist”

  • http://www.shocknetradio.com RJ Evans

    Stacy,

    I cannot prove there isn’t a god. I can’t prove a negative. But, ANY evidence for such an entity doesn’t currently exist, and evidence for the thousands and thousands of gods that supposedly existed before yours still hasn’t materialized. Therefore, your implication that one does exist is like saying “There’s a chance it could rain today. But, I have no idea what the percentage is. So, if I tell you it’s raining, just believe me. Pay no attention to the fact that the sun is shining and there isn’t a cloud in the sky. Suspend disbelief for a moment and soon you’ll be all wet.”

    I think I’ll leave my raincoat in the closet. In the meantime, have fun pretending it’s raining.

    RJ Evans
    “American Heathen®”
    ShockNetRadio.com
    FreethoughtRadio.com

  • me

    She’s full of shit about the religion of course, but she’s right about the guns.

  • http://www.thespuds.com Lamont B Dumont

    Why don’t atheists get any traction? Paranoia might be part of it. That’s the best I can come up with when it seems so few of the commenters are able to see the scared little person behind the bluster. Too many posters describe her as “dangerous”, “angry”, and “terrifying”. That’s a big like being afraid of a snake who just wants to get away from the huge, scary monster. (That would be you, from the snake’s pespective.)
    I must take issue with those who would posit atheism as rational. I meet very few who aren’t every bit as faith-based as Jerry Falwell. Those who are rational mis-characterize themselves as atheists, per my reading of the term.
    Theism and atheism are two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

  • http://effencrazy.blogspot.com Rev. Dr. Spyder X

    The bible is nothing more than fairy tales for adults.

  • Matthew Graybosch

    Is it me, or did this legislator sound like the judge from Ghostbusters 2 who began ranting, becoming more enraged with every word, until he screamed that the defendants should be burned at the stake.

    Was there a beaker of pink slime sitting on this legislator’s desk?

  • Jawsh

    I think it is interesting that she thinks Atheists are against God. Well, I am not against God. If God were real, then I would be all for him. I am not even against religion per se… thats for the anti-theists. There is certainly some parts with Christianity I can agree with: namely several of the “ten commandments.” I love religion when people can interpret their doctrines and scriptures on their own and determine if they believe it and what they want to make of it for their own culture and time. It is the fundamentalism that I am against. The “spreading of hatred” is certainly not what Jesus would have wanted, right? Please, for the love of God (no pun intended), keep to your own devices and shut the hell up! :)
    I have a friend named Jesus. He is an illegal immigrant. Shouldn’t we be voting on issues that matter instead of “Should I be quiet before class while I make everybody wait on me to finish my prayers?” If you want to pray, do it in on your own time. The state is paying for your education there and I will be damned if my tax dollars have to be spent on your praying. The adults have bigger issues to worry about… like the war and immigration.

  • Bdox

    RJ Evans,

    I liked your post but the rain analogy does not work. Why? Because it has rained in the past and probably will in the future.

    Whereas god has never fallen from the sky nor manifested in any way, nor can it be explained how that might come about except in the imagination where all things are possible even though they may be immaterial. So, does god exist? Yes, says the atheist, but only in the imagination of the victims of the vicars where the clergy plant seeds of stupidity and illogic.

    On a different subject, although the “big bang” is accepted scientific theory, I don’t believe in that at all. Every type of occurence we observe in nature happens in cycles. So I suggest that the “big bang,” for which there is considerable evidence, is just one phase of a vastly long cycle.

    I mention this because although there is proof of a ”thing” you need to take a long look at it to see what else it might also be proof of.

  • Claire

    Lamont B Dumont said

    so few of the commenters are able to see the scared little person behind the bluster. Too many posters describe her as “dangerous”, “angry”, and “terrifying”.

    What makes you think they are mutually exclusive? Frightened people often do become angry, because they plain don’t like being scared. Cornered animals will often bite or attack with claws or hooves, and they are dangerous. This woman can get legislation in place, that makes her terrifying. I say she is all of the above.

  • Thomas

    You were right.. this is the first I’ve read about it. And if I had taken such a blindly aggressive stance against religion in the same context I would probably be facing a lawsuit… disgusting.

  • http://badidea.wordpress.com Bad

    Stacey

    Thanks so much for the great dialogue. I really enjoyed it. I have to go now, but would have liked to continue. The server went down for a while and now I have to leave.

    Oh no: the server hosting internet went down? We’ll never be able to come back here and comment ever again? Darn, and I was looking towards using the internet for many years hence.

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  • http://www.slokum.org Brother Dave Thompson

    There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this.

    Uh, I thought the whole secret to being an atheist was simply not believing in god(s). Did I miss something in atheist seminary?

  • Dutchess

    I have a cousin w/12 kids (she didn’t believe in birth control . . . . God wouldn’t give them any more than they could handle) who she home-schooled – yes, you guessed it – Xtian curriculum. Whenever my late husband and I would visit her parents when they were there, they would make sure we were never alone w/their kids. We weren’t out to de-convert them – only to try to get to know them. My brother-in-law was the same w/their daughter. She was at the age where she was able to make decisions on her own, and that’s exactly what they were afraid of. I have a friend who asked me the other day when I was going to come back to church. I told her probably never, because I’m too intellectual to be a Christian. Many Christians are taught that they can’t manage life w/out belief in God. People have asked me how I was able to work full-time, take care of my disabled husband, who later died, without belief in God. All I can say is that it had to be done and I did it. I believed in my self and not some invisible pie-in-the-sky. I don’t need a crutch.

  • http://www.knowsaint.com/ F. Bacon

    Sounds alot like the event a few years ago in Caro, MI against Anonka, an Atheist in Tuscola County. When she complained about a nativity scene, she was denounced by the elected officials for voicing her opinion as a citizen.

  • http://www.robsherman.com Zeleni

    Rob Sherman is also running for State Representative with the Green Party. Learn more and support his campaign here:

    http://www.robsherman.com
    http://www.ilgp.org

  • http://brandnewatheist.com Rob Jones

    I often find that christians are completely ignorant that “separation of church and state” protects their own rights. They think their losing something when you take prayer out of school, when in fact it should have never been there.

    Atheists do more to protect christians religious rights than christians do.

    http://brandnewatheist.com

  • http://www.galifree.com Tim Jedlicka

    This is excellent news actually. Rep. Monique Davis is a sponsor of HB1463 – the mandatory silence/prayer bill. The reason this is excellent news is that in previous Supreme Court arguments against school prayer, they were allowed to bring in statements made by the legislators to show that prayer was a dominant purpose of the bill – hence making it unconstitutional. I suspect Rep. Davis’ comments will become a part of Sherman’s lawsuit.

  • Craig

    That is ridiculous. It pissed me off reading it but only got worse when I heard it straight from the bitches mouth.
    What ever happened to freedom from religion?

  • http://gaytheistagenda.lavenderliberal.com/ Buffy

    Stacy,

    If you don’t understand the difference between “I don’t believe” and “I believe” I’m afraid I cannot help you. You might want to go back to school and learn it. In the meantime you might want to ask yourself why it is that you think nothing of the fact that you (I assume) don’t believe in unicorns, the tooth fairy, or little green men from Mars, yet consider it audacious that an atheist wouldn’t believe in gods for which there is as little proof as there is for the aforementioned entities.

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  • Animal Chin

    i think saying god exists or god does not exist share a similar ignorance. The obvious answer is we don’t know. I can safely assume the flying spaghetti monster probably does not exist, but I can’t soundly claim that it doesn’t, that would be just as foolish as to claim that it does (without documented evidence).

  • Mriana

    I can safely assume the flying spaghetti monster probably does not exist, but I can’t soundly claim that it doesn’t, that would be just as foolish as to claim that it does (without documented evidence).

    Why can’t you make a definite claim? You know a human being made up the FSM and it caught on for some people. The FSM doesn’t really exist and one can actually say that because it was created by a human in a effort of parody. The documented evidence is that someone, who has a great imagination and creativity, drew it and made a story line out it. They would probably attest to this too, esp if they are honest.

  • Brother Dave Thompson

    I double posted. Whoops.

  • Bdox

    I love the fact that the flying spaghetti monster is equally debatable as christianity.

  • Brother Dave Thompson

    Why can’t you make a definite claim? You know a human being made up the FSM and it caught on for some people. The FSM doesn’t really exist and one can actually say that because it was created by a human in a effort of parody. The documented evidence is that someone, who has a great imagination and creativity, drew it and made a story line out it. They would probably attest to this too, esp if they are honest.

    Since the FSM has total dominion over all elements of reality, he could have very well used the most holy woo-energies of the fifth sign of Udu’quanjongar to force his chosen prophets to assume that they “created him as a parody”.

  • Taran

    Wow. I consider my comment-reading habit generally unhealthy, polluting my mind with people’s inane bullshit, solely out of morbid curiosity. But here: civility? Accurately identifying logical fallacies? Asserting some points while conceding others? Getting not only refuted but flamed, then politely thanking the forum for productive discourse?

    Well done, folks, you’ve restored my faith (yes, pun intended), and you’ve already made the arguments I would have made, better than I would have made them. Thank you.

    And I happened upon this thread randomly; figures, it’s an atheist site producing such intelligent dialog. Peace to all, regardless of your beliefs. Hail FSM!

  • Taran

    Sorry, followup box.

  • Mriana

    Brother Dave Thompson said,

    April 6, 2008 at 5:01 pm

    Since the FSM has total dominion over all elements of reality, he could have very well used the most holy woo-energies of the fifth sign of Udu’quanjongar to force his chosen prophets to assume that they “created him as a parody”.

    What? :?: Now that made even less sense than an actual religion.

  • Bdox

    Mriana, I have to disagree.

    It made at least as much sense as christinsanity!

    Just compare it to parting seas to create dry land for a group of people to escape the bad guys! Or compare it to a burning bush that speaks with god’s voice.

    I think, given due consideration, you will find it equally logical (and illogical,) with christinsanty.

  • Mriana

    OK then I’ll put it this way- neither make any sense and one makes even less sense.

  • Jerry Lumpkins

    I’m a little stunned to know that there are people in the world that think that it even makes sense to discuss the viability of religion, or the possibility of the existence of deities. Being a ‘believer’ means that you are irrational. Please don’t try and act as though a reasoning process could have brought you to the conclusions you are espousing. The bottom line is that from the perspective of any rational human being, faith is a state in which one doggedly adheres to a particular idea in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. In other words– Faith is the root of all evil. It’s really important to me that you understand that it’s not that I don’t honor your beliefs. I obviously don’t. And it’s not that I don’t think that your lack of creativity, and lack of self awareness aren’t pathetic. (I really do think that.) It’s just that I want you to keep your irrational, disgusting, ill-conceived dumb-ass notions to yourselves. Feel free to pray on your own time, and lie to yourself into believing that keeping your children ignorant is better for them than having access to the wealth of knowledge that those that actually honor reason have worked so hard to produce. But, when you start trying to dictate social policy that’s going to impact my children, I want you to know where you can put your god, your holy scriptures, and what ever other ridiculous notions you hold sacred.

  • Bdox

    Now you said:

    #

    Mriana said,

    April 6, 2008 at 11:34 pm

    OK then I’ll put it this way- neither make any sense and one makes even less sense.

    And I won’t dispute that. But I may dispute which one makes less sense!

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  • Allison

    Where in the world does he get the idea that it is dangerous for kids to know atheism exists? :roll: IMHO, it is more dangerous for them to know religion exists.

    IMHO, it is dangerous to try to hide things that do exist from children. It’s dangerous to raise children ignorant of the world around them, and of the many different types of people and ways of life that make up that world.

  • http://eiredrake.livejournal.com E in Md

    Base Board said,

    April 4, 2008 at 6:42 pm

    Still, I do think it is a dangerous thing to snatch away God from this world right now. It would be a trade off, as it is equally dangerous to have a large segemtn of the population expecting or even approving of the End of the World.

    You’re missing the point here, as quite a few people also seem to be. Sherman didn’t stand up there and say “There is no god” nor did he take up an ax and start murdering religious people. Nor did he ‘snatch god away’. He was testifying about an action that is blatantly against the Illinois Constitution: The use of tax payer money to fund a church. If you check out his website you will see where he’s outlined precisely the portions of the IL Constitution that state this explicitly. The IL Constitution also states that no person can be forced to pray or not pray and that there shouldn’t be any favoritism amongst religions.

    Sherman’s point is simple, public tax money ( which comes from Atheists and Wicca and Buddists and Satanists and everybody else as well as from Christians ) shouldn’t be going to prop up this church. If the Gov wanted to donate his own private money to do so, or even decided on his own time to take up a fund for people to donate money to save the church that would have been one thing. But he’s taking money from everybody and giving it to one group. That’s a problem because it sets up that one group to be better or higher than everyone else. This is the same nonsense they pull in the Office of Faith Based Initiatives. Would the Gov pull tax payer funds if a Druid grove burned down? I very much doubt it.

    No one can prevent someone from praying. Theists won’t admit this but their kids ARE permitted to pray in church. What is prohibited isn’t praying but praying in a manner that is disruptive to the other children and prayer that is lead by a teacher. Would you want a bunch of Snake Handler Pentacostal kids to jump up at the front of a class during a math lesson and whip out some cobras? No. Because not only would they disrupt the class for all the kids trying to learn algebra but their manner of worship could well be dangerous for the rest of the kids. Nor would you want the Pentacostal teacher ( sorry to pick on you guys here ) teacher to stand at the head of the class and teach your kids that God says that true Christians can take up serpents and cast out demons and such. That’s how they express themselve religiously and while it might be strange to you or me ( especially me, being an Atheist). Neither the teacher, nor the Pentacostal students has the right to impose their beliefs on the rest. Not just for safety reasons but because everybody has the freedom to follow whatever path to divinity ( even if it’s no path at all ) they so choose. Government funded public school is no place for religion. Religion is something that the kid’s parents and preachers should be teaching them.

    That whole ‘we’re not allowed to pray’ thing is a bullshit meme. Because if you believe your god is all knowing then how can any law possibly prohibit you.

    But in any case that’s not what the hearing was about so it doesn’t matter.

  • mac

    regarding stacey, not the post:

    uh…. that isn’t what atheism means.

    while “a” does mean not, or without, theism does not mean “god.” it means “belief in a god.” (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism)

    therefore, your argument crumbles in upon itself as we do not say there is no god, we say that we are without belief.

    i feel bad for responding after it is obvious you won’t rebuttal, it is my fallacy (not hers) that she won’t get the opprotunity to respond.

    also, i do not speak for all atheists. plenty of them do assert they know there is no god. i don’t.

  • Brandon

    How come the legislator wasn’t interrupted during her rant? Way to bring us back on topic after the fact…

  • Sawyer Pence

    Here is a copy of an email I sent to Rep. Davis, if I receive a response I will post it here. I think the accusations are justified.

    Dear Representative Davis,

    I have followed and listened to the transcript of your outburst against Rob Sherman and I am just shocked to hear such ignorance and prejudice. I think you should consider for a moment what position you would be in right now if Mr. Sherman had been a Muslim or other non-christian. You are a member of the NAACP, and yet people have heard words like yours before, except it was during the 1960′s and the blind hatred was between races and not religions. You are a teacher, and yet your words on this matter do nothing but put that title to serious question. This is a shame to the progressive and welcoming ideals of the democratic party. Given your words, I wonder if you truly believe in equality as more than just a hollow phrase to capture votes. On a side note, I do not understand how you could possibly support the money of taxpayers being given to private religious organizations. In my eyes you are the worst kind of hypocrite and an embarassment to the constituents you claim to represent. I do not apologize for these harsh words, because I truly believe that there is no excuse for what you have said.

    Ashamed For Democrats,

    Sawyer Pence

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  • Mary Jo

    “The FSM doesn’t really exist and one can actually say that because it was created by a human in a effort of parody. ”

    Ooooh! His noodly appendage is gonna come down and smite you…

    Also, very nice letter Sawyer Pence.

  • Jackie Coleman

    Hey: Glad to see this whole debate rage. One of the reasons atheists (and even believers in the separation of church and state) are “paranoid” to quote a previous writer is because there are organized forces (many with state power) who are trying to drown science and scientific thinking in dangerous superstition and the shutting down of critical thinking. This recent spate of atheist books and debates like this are a real breath of fresh air in a foul climate that left unchallenged will end up in a high-tech Dark Ages. Would like to recommend for reading an interview with Dawn Sherman (Robert’s 14-year old daughter who filed the suit against the Minute of Silence in schools) in Revolution newspaper http://www.revcom.us/a/125/dawn-sherman-interview-en.html. And that people check out a new and unique book called “Away with All Gods -Unchaining the Mind and Radically Changing the World” by Bob Avakian, just released by Insight Press. It’s a demystification of religion, it’s history and the real harm it has done, including chaining people’s minds, and what is possible if people’s minds are unchained, all told with power, poetry and humor. Great addition to the debate.

  • Jim Hanley

    COPY
    Hello again Hon. Rep. Ms. Monique D. Davis:
    This may enlighten you:

    THE UNIVERSE
    Mass/energy never disappear ever were ever here!
    With nothing to ‘create’, a “so-called “Creator-God” is an impossible superfluous nonentity! J.H. © 5/8/07

    AN ENSLAVING FORCE
    Few people realize the extent of the reach, influence and overwhelming power of religion! Nor do many people have any idea as to the enormity of the Vatican’s financial resources! Very likely, the Vatican is the wealthiest entity by a factor of 100 that the world has ever seen. And its tax-free status, weekly and “willed” donations of millions, when added to income from all its many worldwide investments, positions those who control that fabulous bottomless pool of wealth as the world’s most influential lobbyist or purchaser! This may be one of the reasons the Pledge of Allegiance was plagiarized and altered from “one nation indivisible” to the bigoted “one nation (divided) under God.” And why 100 senators disgraced our country and themselves by reciting the religious pledge on the steps of the senate and before television beamed to the entire world! The time has come to discredit the outrageous assertions by the Ponzi-racketeering charlatans who promote the plague-like mind destroying disease religion that survives by warping the minds of innocent children and fools, robbing them of their candy and toy money, and enslaving them to a life as shills who help perpetuate the criminal religion schemes. “Secular humanists,” “non-believers” and other sane and rational people know that no proof survives the fairytales of a magician named Jesus or his magic miracles, nor is there any proof whatsoever that there is or ever was a supreme creator God! Yet this and other lies are used to perpetuate their rotten scheme religion. People who live in the “real” world refuse to accept silly lies, fairy tales and farce as fact, whether it be about “Santa Claus” “The Tooth Fairy,” “Donald Duck,” a “Jesus” or a “Creator God.” Nor should they be lumped with or considered analogous with a gang of thieving, lying, mind-warping pedophiles who use a how-to manual of pornography, pillorying, stoning to death and other forms of outright bigotry, for their weekly stimulus to more proselytizing. The senators who said that fallacious rendition of our once great Pledge of Allegiance shall be remembered as the promoters of a criminal enterprise and the abettors or cohorts of a bunch of thieving slavers who invade every phase of society with their lying assertions that “our country was founded as a Christian nation.
    Their plagiarism of our once great Pledge of Allegiance, their repeated attempts to force their “Godism” on all schoolchildren, and their ever increasing use of all forms of media and gimmicks to mesmerize, indoctrinate and bludgeon American people with their outrageous, endless efforts to dominate us all with a “Theocratic” form of government renders them heinous felonious criminals!
    And the likes of George W. Bush and his ilk, including Ilinois Governor Rod Blagojevich by giving millions of dollars to faith-based groups, are bidding them “Godspeed” with our hard earned tax money!

    THE ORIGIN OF NATURE
    Beginning is never found but keep an ear to the ground. Accept the word of a friend there’s no beginning or end.
    Religion’s pollution is no solution for Darwin’s Evolution. Natures origin for instance is ceaselessness Existence. The worst form of child abuse is warping of the mind! J.H. © 8/29/06

  • http://www.thepersonalispolitical.com TPIP

    I’m disgusted by these comments. It shows really the only kind of bigotry that is nearly universally acceptable in our society, which is intolerance against atheists. Here is my full discussion of her comments, for any interested: http://www.thepersonalispolitical.com/2008/04/hidden-bigotry.html

    Of course she will in all likelihood get away with this, and it will once again be proven acceptable to attack atheists. Does anyone know of any actions being undertaken to reprimand Rep. Davis? Any petitions or anything?

  • Scorpious

    She was named as the Worst Person In The World tonight on Countdown with Keith Olbermann. The show airs on MSNBC weeknights at 8pm/10pm & 2am Eastern Time.

  • http://www.decrepitoldfool.com decrepitoldfool

    Stacy said: “There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this.

    No Stacy, I make a statement that I absolutely do not believe there is a god – that’s what atheism means. I don’t have to look everywhere in the universe to know that I don’t believe in god – the belief, if it existed, would be in my head and I looked there.

    I bet you don’t believe in a teapot orbiting Mars, either. No proof that one does not exist, true, but you have no reason to think one does exist and it would be up to the teapotist to prove to you it exists. Your ateapotism requires no justification.

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  • Katie

    Atheists are how dangerous?
    More dangerous than al Qaeda?
    Let’s consider such things as the war between Israel and Palestine, which has occurred due to the minute differences in rituals.
    I find that such blind faith encouraged by organized religion is most dangerous.

  • Katherine

    Unbelievable. Why do people keep saying atheists hate god? We can’t hate what we don’t believe in. And what’s this agenda we have? To get people to think for themselves? OMG – it all makes sense now. We have to stop spreading our ideas of free expression and individual thought, because if we don’t, religion’s going to die out. NOW I see what she’s so upset about.

  • Kurt

    Corrector said,

    April 4, 2008 at 11:34 am

    Athiests are too polite. People need to be reminded that god does not really exist and that all religions are cults based upon lies from time to time, before they become as stupid as this fellow.

    This ‘fellow’ is a woman. So now who seems the stupid one.

  • deadstatue

    does anybody here know how to contact this woman through email?
    all i could find is a phone number , address, and fax

    Springfield Office:
    241-E Stratton Office Building
    Springfield, IL 62706
    (217) 782-0010
    (217) 782-1795 FAX
    District Office:
    1234 West 95th Street
    Chicago, IL 60643
    (773) 445-9700
    (773) 445-5755 FAX
    Cook County

    i need an email address, though i will be writing a letter demanding her resignation.
    i live in arizona, so that doesnt mean shit to her, but at least we can overload their servers with protest to what she said.
    im disgusted that a person like this could be a representative of the people,and im damn sure going to make myself heard.

  • Marey

    Stacey said “There is NO SUCH THING as an atheist. If you make an absolute statement that there is NO God, then you make the affirmation that you know all things and that you can actually prove this. This is like somebody making a statement that there is no gold in China. You would have to be everywhere at one time and know what is under every rock and in every area of the land, in every man’s home, inside of each person mouth etc. It would not be proveable! Don’t try to argue that you say there is no God because you cannot prove th”

    One doesn’t have to prove it . Just use some common sense. And your analogy about gold in China is not the same. Do you believe in pink elephants? So there’s none in your house? Have you checked Mine or your neighbors? maybe there’s one in China. And the tooth fairy? She exists right?

    There is not one piece of evidence for you god. Not one. People make things. They wanted to explain the world so they assumed it also was made and made up a god to make it. Big deal. I don’t care if you believe but just quit insisting your belief should be plastered all over the public space and that you should have govt support. Keep it on your church property all you want . JUST PAY TAXES LIKE EVERY OTHER BUSINESS!

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  • deadstatue

    the only reason rep. monique davis apoligized is because the entire atheist populatuion hates her and has been flooding her inbox,voicemail,telephone…. with complete disapproval.
    its kind of like recanting yesterdays headline news, but putting the correction on the back of page E-17 in the newspaper. it will never get the publicity of her previous statements(obviously)
    and an apology is not what anyone wants, shes still hypocritical, she still thinks how she did before, so maybe shell watch her vile spewing trap for a while.
    in the end, we still have a crazy christian holding power as a state representative. which certainly doesnt represent the people of her state as a whole.im still calling for her immediade resignation.

    heres her email address, please let her know how her “people” feel about her.
    mdavis@hdsmail.state.il.us

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  • Amy

    Why is no one talking about the rest of the congressmen and women who were cheering her on and applauding her comments? In the tape, we can hear them actually encouraging her, which means they totally agree with her and are actually equally guilty but no one seems to be bothered by that.

  • Luke

    So she’s basically saying that it’s alright to fill children’s minds with beliefs that are nothing more than ideas passed down the generations, whereas atheism is based on Science which is the study of theories that are either our best guess or can be proven.
    This is the reason we have mental asylums, for people like her. She’s saying it is evil to not believe in God. I say its stupid to believe in one at all.
    People like this should not be trusted with scissors, never mind the welfare of a state. In my mind someone who has their mind this clouded by their beliefs should not have any say in the education of children, nor should strong believers of atheism. It should be left to people who are themselves unsure, or are at least able to respect the beliefs or others, unlike this stupid bitch.

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  • http://www.madnessletters.com Bradyn

    You think that’s bad. Look at this Muslim school supported with your tax dollars: http://kstp.com/article/stories/S407036.shtml?cat=1

    check out http://www.madnessletters.com for more on it

  • Siamang

    Braden, that’s already been reported on here.

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  • Lukas

    Well, at least she apologized.

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  • weemaryanne

    I agree with thin and weak (interesting handle, btw). Rep. Davis and Stacey and others like them may sound hateful and angry, but actually they’re scared.

    Which makes them much more dangerous.

  • weemaryanne

    And base board, it’s cruel to “yank” irrational beliefs away from people only if it’s cruel to tell them the truth and not let them get away with the la-la-la-can’t-hear-you trick.

    Besides, who’s “yanking”? The god they believe in will be no less imaginary tomorrow than it is today, so we’re not actually taking anything away from them. When you snatch candy away from a baby then of course it will cry; but in this case, not only is there no candy, there’s no baby either!

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  • bdox

    Thank you Jim Hanley.

    You have more energy than I do in my old age. Please keep it up as long as you can.

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  • Dave Grubbs

    One thing that we are failing to see (and please correct me if I’m wrong, because I haven’t had the time to fully appreciate the details of the situation) is the correlation between the Christian stance on censorship and how it is in accordance with everyone’s views on censorship. When you subscribe to a notion than you have to jade or bias yourself to support, how else can you react but with passion when in question. You certainly can’t use logic now, right? It’s what happens when “God” forbid, you use the “N” word, or make theo-political cartoon over the muslim faith. And try comparing these sects to each other.

    I will say, in contrast. . . How much damage could a million dollars to a church do? Yes, it may be an unfair distribution of state funds, but hey. Christians voted these Christian politicians to pay for Christian beliefs.

  • http://www.decrepitoldfool.com decrepitoldfool

    How much damage could a million dollars to a church do?

    No more damage than a small hole in a levee. It isn’t how much damage it does, but what it damages (the wall of separation between church and state) and the pressures that will take advantage of that damage.

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  • http://www.makesomethinghappen.net MakeSomethingHappen

    This is simultaneously outrageous and unsurprising. Athiests’ rights are something that aren’t talked about very often, but maybe it’s time that they are. As an agnostic, I’ve never felt particularly in favor of the fringe “militant athiest” types who bitterly fight religion’s encroachment into any public space, but the more incidents like this occur the more important it seems to me that Athiests find a way to pool their collective force & stand up for their rights. How many people do you think it would take to do something like, say, mark “In God We Trust” off of every dollar bill in America? Probably the number is smaller than the number of Athiests in the country.

  • vic

    No wonder we have such a messed up society. People are schizophrenic. They pray to a god who is invisible and thank it for doing good but let it off the hook for murder, rape and losing football games. People have so much faith in their god that they are afraid it cannot defend itself from an atheistic point of view. Religious people talking to invisible beings dare to criticize the rest of us who refuse to believe in what has never, and can never, be proven.

  • http://www.boredquiz.com Religion Quiz

    Im glad you are proud of something, hence this blog

  • http://www.marijuana.com Tom

    dont try to reason with religious types

  • deadstatue

    make something happen,
    why are the atheists that are trying to keep religion out of public places “militant and bitter” about their cause?
    to me it makes more sense to say that the religious types are imperialistic and bitter about their opinions being known to the public. if you truly believe in what you say and do, then theres no reason to try to preach you opinions to others.you should be happy knowing the “truth”
    and as far as atheists getting organized and doing something as a group, theres something inherently wrong with that. people are atheists because they think for themselves, and refuse to be herded like cattle, so good luck getting them to follow anyone.

  • Bdox

    Monique Davis « Bruises Colours said,

    April 9, 2008 at 5:01 am

    […] it’s one thing that this lady is extremely bigoted and prejudice against atheists, and another that she is a shrill nut bag. What ever, she has freedom of speech too.

    Perhaps Monique, as a private citizen she has freedom of speech. But as the voice of the State, that freedom is limited by the US Constitution and the State Constitution as well. There are very strict limits on what she may say in her official role. She appears to be intellectually unqualified for her job.

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  • cyle

    I will say that i am inclined to agree with davis in one aspect though I must take it a different direction. Agnosticism and athiesm are not weapons but i will admit they are dangerous to the type of society people like that want to create. Just like the catholic church hundreds of years ago they realize that the easiest person to govern is one who does not think for themselves and looks to “big brother” to interperet everything for them. Many are simply programmed this way from a terrifyingly young age taking so much away from them before they even have a chance to think. This my friends, should be a crime. To maim and destroy young minds so callously and force any you can into the same death worshipping, ignorence propagating cult that wishes nothing more than to, in essense (considering these major religious react so violently to the presence of any other ideology) take over as many minds and control as much of the world as possible.
    One day it will be illegal to pollute the minds of innocent young children with violent superstition, senseless hatred, and worthless predjudice. At least that is what we can hope…. one day my friends, civilization

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  • Raffaele

    It is dangerous for atheist children to know that assoholes like Rod Blagojevich do exist

    bye from Vatican Italy

  • Leetamus

    Man i’m so sick of the bunk atheist attitude that you’re all critical thinkers.. I’ve never actually met one. Every atheist I know is entirely ignorant of religious topics. Lazy thinkers who won’t even learn about religion. “the bible is full of shit” is a common thing to here from people who, in fact, have no idea what’s inside. Right or wrong, your little group is just as groundless as many flaky Christians who also have never read their bible.

  • http://www.decrepitoldfool.com decrepitoldfool

    Every atheist I know is entirely ignorant of religious topics. Lazy thinkers who won’t even learn about religion.

    Do you need extensive knowledge of astrology to know that it is bunk?

    Anyway, you might be surprised to learn how many atheists are former Christians with extensive knowledge of Christianity and the Bible.

  • Siamang

    Every atheist I know is entirely ignorant of religious topics.

    Then go talk to them. Don’t come trolling here.

    You already have your mind made up about us.

  • Flonkbob

    Leetamus,

    I’m sorry that your experience doesn’t seem to include any of the atheist’s I know.

    In direct answer to your comment, however, I can say that I do know what I’m talking about when I say that religion is bunk. I have read the Christian bible cover to cover at least seven times. I’ve read the Mormon books once through. I’ve tried to dig into the Koran, but it’s very heavy going and painfully illogical and silly. I have an entire shelf in my home filled with various ‘holy books’ of other faiths as well.

    So, thanks for your display of intolerance. But the fact is that very many of us have investigated religion quite closely, and found it wanting. There is not one bit of evidence that I’ve found for the existence of god, and nothing that religion has suggested equals the ability to explain reality like science and rational thought.

    Of course if you have any evidence, anything at all that you think might convince those of us who do look at all claims with an open mind, please say so here. I’m more than willing to listen and put your ideas to the test. And if you convince me, I’ll admit that you were right and I was wrong.

    I think that’s pretty fair. What do you say?

  • http://danielholter.com/about Daniel Holter

    I wish to say everything Flonkbob just said. So, ditto.

    Also :

    I’m more than willing to listen and put your ideas to the test. And if you convince me, I’ll admit that you were right and I was wrong.

    I wish the same were true of most Christians I know. A precious few will engage in reasonable and rational debate, but the vast majority (in my experience) just plain aren’t interested. It’s too scary to admit you may be wrong and be facing an eternity in a literal lake of fire.

    And I say this as a former Christian who’s entire family and circle of friends consists mainly of believers (though I don’t classify myself as an atheist… I’m kind of on the generic deist bent currently, but I’m learning and exploring).

  • Killian

    Wasn’t Lincoln an atheist? I believe I remember reading that in several places, which makes her “State of Lincoln” phrase a bit more amusing.

  • Leandra

    When I was about 8 years old and in Sunday School I was aware that it might be a farce without any outside influence– my entire family was devout Catholic.

  • jason

    The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession.
    – Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis in “Lincoln the Freethinker”

    • Minklette

      Yes, but she doesn’t want to be bothered with a little thing like facts.

    • Minklette

      Yes, but she doesn’t want to be bothered with a little thing like facts.

    • Minklette

      Yes, but she doesn’t want to be bothered with a little thing like facts.

    • Minklette

      Yes, but she doesn’t want to be bothered with a little thing like facts.

  • Bdox

    I want to go back to Sam’s question about the question of guns in school.

    A good argument could be made that much more harm has been done by christinsanity in schools than has been done by guns.

  • Tina

    I don’t really like to label myself,who I am,Is who I’m going to stay,I’m not going to change for anyone,people expect me to share their beliefs,and if I don’t I’m going to hell,well guess what,how can I go to a place where I don’t believe,but than again this is how I see it,I don’t believe that up in the sky is heaven or in the ground is hell,I believe heaven and hell is right here in this world,in earth,bad things happen,good things happen,I think people just want to believe that when they die they are going to see angels and God,but how could they possibly know that,I believe in imagination,I make up my own world,where I’m going to be when I die,and I think religious people are the same,except they take it to far,judging others who don’t agree with them,I figure this was America where you have the right to speak freely yet it only depends on what you say,half of this world is run by Christians and other religions,this isn’t America the free country anymore because America is about escaping from people who try control your every move and mind,once a child is born the parent choose what belief and religion the child should have,the child has no right to choose. what the adult says goes like the whole christianing and baptism ,how is that freedom,some religious people say it strict bounderies,yeah telling your child they have to believe something or you’ll disown him/her,yeah that’s love

  • tfy

    I’m atheist, and I kinda agree with Davis. I mean, why not give them a moment of silence to pray and whatnot? I mean, it’s not like it hurts the atheist children. But it does hurt the theist children, or at least the parents believe so. Maybe we should ask the children what they want. No one has done that.

    I am so high right now. hahaaa this song is amazing. Animal Collective’s last album, Merriweather Post Pavillion, is insane.

  • Elroc

    Of course she is acting dramatically, its like she is screaming “im NOT insane, I have believed this crazy story too long now to change my mind so you have to believe it too or I would have to admit my life has been a sham!”

  • http://returntoblockland.net Satan

    Christians are such caring, loving intellectual people.

  • Ignostu

    3 years ago and still current!!
    Religion is sooooo done ,passe, out of style,voted down Globally
    …it’s like a 2000 or 3000 year old redwood
    about to go down for timber,
    top allready cut ,
    the  base wedges removed ,
    silently
    waiting for gravity to embrace it back into the mystery of our cosmos .
    The gaping hole religion left quickly fills
    with happy memories we make

  • Cory

    We do not all believe in God in the Land of Lincoln. I may not have been born in this state, but I have lived here since I was four years old. I don’t want any part of a religion that spews hatred like she does.


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