Peace, bro,

D.

You do what they do–pick and choose to fit your preferences.

Yes, of course I do. That’s my whole point, that the Bible is a conversation with multiple sides to it, not a monolithic, unified discourse. So of course I have to “pick and choose” which sides of the conversation seem to fit the overall trajectory of the story. The difference is that I recognize that it’s not all of one piece, while the fundies do not recognize this, and apparently neither do the atheists here who accuse me of not dealing with it all as one piece either.

But, come one, compare the picture presented of believers in the Bible and history with yourself. They were not like you and you are not like them, not just in behavior, but in mindset and beliefs. Religion is always defined and delimited by culture. There’s been a lot of changes from then till now, and your church wouldn’t be what it is except for those.

Yes of course. But again, my view of the Bible has room for Christianity to always be unfolding and changing and evolving. I see it as the beginning acts of an ongoing drama that I am still contributing to. The difference between me and the fundies is that while this is equally true of their religion, their theology doesn’t have any room to acknowledge that fact.

Good thoughts. I tend to agree with you (mostly) and especially

if the conditions necessary to eliminate “bad” thoughts entail brainwashing the world into one monolithic culture, politic, and thought pattern, I’m not 100% sure that’d be preferrable.

The fundies aren’t correct in their interpretations, and when it comes to certain doctrines, neither are you. You do what they do–pick and choose to fit your preferences.

This actually made me laugh out loud.

There is some irony in an atheist telling a Christian that his doctrine is all wrong.

Why might people guided by the same “source” think and behave so differently?

That reminds me of the matrix. The oracle lied to Neo because that’s what he needed to hear to do what she needed him to do.

Maybe if there is a god (and I’m convinced there isn’t), He/She/It doesn’t think that there’s just one single way that all humans ought to be.

Feel free to stop reading. I’m going off on a tangent here:

Humans are too simplistic. We’re always trying to impose our own ideas on everybody else as if our way is the only way simply because it worked for us for a while.
Just as a world of clones would be vulnerable to annhilation by a single bug, so, too, I think a single, globally shared and venerated meme (e.g. nations are a good) without competition would make us all myopic, weak and stagnant.
That’s not to say there aren’t some truly nasty ideologies out there that we’d all be better off without. But, if the conditions necessary to eliminate “bad” thoughts entail brainwashing the world into one monolithic culture, politic, and thought pattern, I’m not 100% sure that’d be preferrable.

Sure we are all unique, but there is a difference between the fact my wife and I (with similar aspirations in life) are unique and different and the fact that Osama Bin Laden (to use a Muslim fundamentalist) and I are different…

…to say that Mike Clawson and Ray Comfort (to use an extreme example) are just unique even they are both endowed with the same Holy Spirit just doesn’t cut it for me.

The heart eventually tells on itself. When you see the fruits of a tree, you know what kind of a tree it is. So obviously, Osama Bin Laden’s heart does not come from the same source as yours.

Mike Clawson and Ray Comfort endowed by the same Holy Spirit? I don’t remember Mike Clawson ever mentioning his experience with the Holy Spirit (maybe it was before I started visiting this site). And I don’t know enough about Ray Comfort to make any assumptions regarding his spirituality. I just know you guys don’t care for him, and I trust your taste on that. Looking at it from a humanitarian perspective, of course you cannot compare him to Mike C.

I would ask you though, if sin is ‘off the mark’ or ‘off target,’ what is the mark or target we’re aiming for? Is it the same or different for everyone? Is it something we know innately (conscience?) or something that has to be revealed by God Himself (the Ten Commandments?)

You’re still looking at it from “works” point of view. This is how I see it:

The target we’re aiming for is God himself. It has nothing to do with good or bad, right or wrong, or any effort on our part. We’re not setting a goal for ourselves and working toward it. Not at all. Just as a flower turns toward the sun, we turn toward God to receive his light. But is it the sun that turns the flower or does the flower turn itself? I really don’t know. Maybe it’s both.

You ask is it same for everyone? The fact that we’re struggling for freedom is same. Also the grace and love we receive… It is my belief that you have to know Christ in order to fully understand grace, love, and freedom. …freedom beyond the boundaries of the various boxes that we trap ourselves (and others) in. To me, salvation means being saved from the limitations of my self.