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	<title>Comments on: Honey and Sweetheart</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/</link>
	<description>by Hemant Mehta</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 14 Feb 2012 02:31:00 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: decrepitoldfool</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-170449</link>
		<dc:creator>decrepitoldfool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 May 2008 01:53:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-170449</guid>
		<description>Bill, he&#039;s got nothing: he can&#039;t tell a religious from a secular argument, and the one secular argument he does have is packed full of misunderstanding.  Short version: government only &quot;allows&quot; people to marry who &quot;produce&quot; something the government wants, and gay people can&#039;t have children.  Add generous amounts of bible verses and serve with a garnish of self-righteousness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, he&#8217;s got nothing: he can&#8217;t tell a religious from a secular argument, and the one secular argument he does have is packed full of misunderstanding.  Short version: government only &#8220;allows&#8221; people to marry who &#8220;produce&#8221; something the government wants, and gay people can&#8217;t have children.  Add generous amounts of bible verses and serve with a garnish of self-righteousness.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169771</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 05:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169771</guid>
		<description>Thanks a lot for the link to that article! That&#039;s really what I&#039;ve been looking for; some guidance as to just why the government is involved in marriage in the first place. Without some background knowledge in that area it&#039;s difficult to converse with someone who argues his point from that arena.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks a lot for the link to that article! That&#8217;s really what I&#8217;ve been looking for; some guidance as to just why the government is involved in marriage in the first place. Without some background knowledge in that area it&#8217;s difficult to converse with someone who argues his point from that arena.</p>
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		<title>By: MTran</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169765</link>
		<dc:creator>MTran</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 05:01:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169765</guid>
		<description>Bill,

The whiner who is spouting off on your blog doesn&#039;t know what he is talking about.  He has simply made up a &lt;em&gt;post hoc &lt;/em&gt;rationalization for a policy he happens to like.

In the US, the feds and the states got into the marriage license game rather late.  Sadly, much of the states&#039; &quot;interests&quot; were methods of oppressing religions and races they did not like.  The rest of their (more understandable) interests were mostly related to ease of administration of governmental benefits to dependents and survivors and for judicial uniformity in probate disputes.  Nothing to do with future generations.

You may find this link to a New York Times article useful: 
&lt;a&gt;Taking Marriage Private&lt;/a&gt;



</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill,</p>
<p>The whiner who is spouting off on your blog doesn&#8217;t know what he is talking about.  He has simply made up a <em>post hoc </em>rationalization for a policy he happens to like.</p>
<p>In the US, the feds and the states got into the marriage license game rather late.  Sadly, much of the states&#8217; &#8220;interests&#8221; were methods of oppressing religions and races they did not like.  The rest of their (more understandable) interests were mostly related to ease of administration of governmental benefits to dependents and survivors and for judicial uniformity in probate disputes.  Nothing to do with future generations.</p>
<p>You may find this link to a New York Times article useful:<br />
<a>Taking Marriage Private</a></p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169758</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 24 May 2008 04:52:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169758</guid>
		<description>I appreciate a couple of you popping over to give your thoughts. I feel like I&#039;ve opened a can of worms on my blog that I wasn&#039;t quite prepared for. It&#039;s obvious this guy has thought about this issue a lot more than I have, which is unfortunate because while I disagree with him, I&#039;m having trouble making a rational argument against him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate a couple of you popping over to give your thoughts. I feel like I&#8217;ve opened a can of worms on my blog that I wasn&#8217;t quite prepared for. It&#8217;s obvious this guy has thought about this issue a lot more than I have, which is unfortunate because while I disagree with him, I&#8217;m having trouble making a rational argument against him.</p>
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		<title>By: Siamang</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169309</link>
		<dc:creator>Siamang</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 15:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169309</guid>
		<description>My mother in law has a child with her wife.

Therefore by the person&#039;s own argument:

From a secular point of view, government has an interest in granting marriage because these unions produce the next generation of citizens.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My mother in law has a child with her wife.</p>
<p>Therefore by the person&#8217;s own argument:</p>
<p>From a secular point of view, government has an interest in granting marriage because these unions produce the next generation of citizens.</p>
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		<title>By: decrepitoldfool</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169274</link>
		<dc:creator>decrepitoldfool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 14:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169274</guid>
		<description>Bill, I&#039;ll post this here and at your blog, but the short answer is that partnership has many societal benefits besides children, and that even infertile couples are &quot;allowed&quot; to marry. (can you imagine how well a childbearing requirement would go over?)  It is also true that gay people have children, and also adopt children, and those children deserve the protection that a partnership affords them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill, I&#8217;ll post this here and at your blog, but the short answer is that partnership has many societal benefits besides children, and that even infertile couples are &#8220;allowed&#8221; to marry. (can you imagine how well a childbearing requirement would go over?)  It is also true that gay people have children, and also adopt children, and those children deserve the protection that a partnership affords them.</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169271</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 14:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169271</guid>
		<description>Like many people in this thread, I made a post on my own blog celebrating the California Supreme Court decision. I recognized the potential for arguments that would stem from such a thing, but felt like I&#039;d be up to the task of defending my opinion. Well, apparently I&#039;m having an off day because I got a response that I&#039;m having trouble coming up with a clear and concise refutation for. His argument is based on the premise that the only reason the government sanctions marriage is because it produces the next generation of citizens. Here, I&#039;ll let him say it himself,
&lt;blockquote&gt;Homosexual couples should not be given the same rights because our government is responsible for passing laws that support the purposes of our country. The only reason our country recognizes heterosexual marriages and gives legal rights, tax breaks, ect., from a secular point of view, is because it has an interest in doing so because those unions produce the next generation of citizens. Homosexual couples should not have the same rights because our government has no interest in their unions.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The reason I&#039;m tossing this up here is in the hopes that someone smarter than me could jump over and provide some clear opposition to his thoughts. Yes, I realize I&#039;m being a bit lazy, but after reading some of the comments in this thread I realize just how much some of you have thought about this issue and will be able to do a much better job of answering him than I ever could. Also, this isn&#039;t a plug for my blog, I don&#039;t care how much traffic I get, but it is a plea for help. Oh, and you can find my post &lt;a href=&quot;http://drivinginraleigh.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/californication/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;. Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like many people in this thread, I made a post on my own blog celebrating the California Supreme Court decision. I recognized the potential for arguments that would stem from such a thing, but felt like I&#8217;d be up to the task of defending my opinion. Well, apparently I&#8217;m having an off day because I got a response that I&#8217;m having trouble coming up with a clear and concise refutation for. His argument is based on the premise that the only reason the government sanctions marriage is because it produces the next generation of citizens. Here, I&#8217;ll let him say it himself,</p>
<blockquote><p>Homosexual couples should not be given the same rights because our government is responsible for passing laws that support the purposes of our country. The only reason our country recognizes heterosexual marriages and gives legal rights, tax breaks, ect., from a secular point of view, is because it has an interest in doing so because those unions produce the next generation of citizens. Homosexual couples should not have the same rights because our government has no interest in their unions.</p></blockquote>
<p>The reason I&#8217;m tossing this up here is in the hopes that someone smarter than me could jump over and provide some clear opposition to his thoughts. Yes, I realize I&#8217;m being a bit lazy, but after reading some of the comments in this thread I realize just how much some of you have thought about this issue and will be able to do a much better job of answering him than I ever could. Also, this isn&#8217;t a plug for my blog, I don&#8217;t care how much traffic I get, but it is a plea for help. Oh, and you can find my post <a href="http://drivinginraleigh.wordpress.com/2008/05/16/californication/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: decrepitoldfool</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169203</link>
		<dc:creator>decrepitoldfool</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 11:16:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169203</guid>
		<description>My wife and I have been married for 29 years.  Getting married was easy, but staying married was not. Though we did and do love each other, we married impetuously and foolishly and the differences between us were and are substantive.  

But it is above all else a partnership.  We have held hands while she gave birth to our three children.  We have together endured unemployment, sickness, and the deaths one year apart of each of our fathers.   We have attended graduations together, helped our kids with their homework until they advanced to the point where we could only offer moral support.  She has been hospitalized once and I have many times and we have been there for each other, watching out for each other&#039;s interests.

Our. Marriage. Matters.

But what if we had been of two different races and had the misfortune to live in our parents&#039; generation in certain states?  Or what if, when our partnership was formed, we had been of the same gender and the law simply refused to recognize our right to form that partnership as we navigate through life, and denied us the thousand-or-so legal ties and benefits that fit comfortably within the word &quot;marriage&quot;?

The bible has about the same number of verses pertaining to eating shellfish as it does against homosexuality.  And approximately twenty-two times that many verses enjoining Christians to have mercy on the poor. Why aren&#039;t more Christians clamoring for social justice, for national support of good schools in poor neighborhoods, for equal health care for all?  The bible contains verses that establish second-class citizenship for people whose testicles have been crushed.  The Apostle Paul, who never met Jesus (who never once mentioned homosexuality) except in a hallucination, wrote the strongest words in the book against homosexuality. 

In a secular society (please note the number of times &#039;god&#039; is mentioned in our constitution) the tenets of any religion cannot be considered as the basis of any law.  

And the &quot;definition of marriage&quot;?

This should be obvious, it shouldn&#039;t take a minute to figure out. It&#039;s partnership in life.  It&#039;s mutual protection, love, and care.  It isn&#039;t genitalia.

It&#039;s simple humanity and decency toward people who are a little different.   It isn&#039;t just which kinds of genitalia people have - some people have ambiguous genitalia, should they be forbidden to marry?  Many married couples never have sex anymore; should they forced to split up?  Why is this so hard to figure out?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife and I have been married for 29 years.  Getting married was easy, but staying married was not. Though we did and do love each other, we married impetuously and foolishly and the differences between us were and are substantive.  </p>
<p>But it is above all else a partnership.  We have held hands while she gave birth to our three children.  We have together endured unemployment, sickness, and the deaths one year apart of each of our fathers.   We have attended graduations together, helped our kids with their homework until they advanced to the point where we could only offer moral support.  She has been hospitalized once and I have many times and we have been there for each other, watching out for each other&#8217;s interests.</p>
<p>Our. Marriage. Matters.</p>
<p>But what if we had been of two different races and had the misfortune to live in our parents&#8217; generation in certain states?  Or what if, when our partnership was formed, we had been of the same gender and the law simply refused to recognize our right to form that partnership as we navigate through life, and denied us the thousand-or-so legal ties and benefits that fit comfortably within the word &#8220;marriage&#8221;?</p>
<p>The bible has about the same number of verses pertaining to eating shellfish as it does against homosexuality.  And approximately twenty-two times that many verses enjoining Christians to have mercy on the poor. Why aren&#8217;t more Christians clamoring for social justice, for national support of good schools in poor neighborhoods, for equal health care for all?  The bible contains verses that establish second-class citizenship for people whose testicles have been crushed.  The Apostle Paul, who never met Jesus (who never once mentioned homosexuality) except in a hallucination, wrote the strongest words in the book against homosexuality. </p>
<p>In a secular society (please note the number of times &#8216;god&#8217; is mentioned in our constitution) the tenets of any religion cannot be considered as the basis of any law.  </p>
<p>And the &#8220;definition of marriage&#8221;?</p>
<p>This should be obvious, it shouldn&#8217;t take a minute to figure out. It&#8217;s partnership in life.  It&#8217;s mutual protection, love, and care.  It isn&#8217;t genitalia.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s simple humanity and decency toward people who are a little different.   It isn&#8217;t just which kinds of genitalia people have &#8211; some people have ambiguous genitalia, should they be forbidden to marry?  Many married couples never have sex anymore; should they forced to split up?  Why is this so hard to figure out?</p>
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		<title>By: hoverFrog</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169060</link>
		<dc:creator>hoverFrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 23 May 2008 05:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-169060</guid>
		<description>Jake has completed part two and three of his posts explaining why he disagrees with same sex marriage.  It&#039;s worth a read and worth laying out opposing viewpoints.  Maybe we&#039;ll change a few opinions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jake has completed part two and three of his posts explaining why he disagrees with same sex marriage.  It&#8217;s worth a read and worth laying out opposing viewpoints.  Maybe we&#8217;ll change a few opinions.</p>
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		<title>By: hoverFrog</title>
		<link>http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-167257</link>
		<dc:creator>hoverFrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 May 2008 15:49:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://friendlyatheist.com/2008/05/15/honey-and-sweetheart/#comment-167257</guid>
		<description>Jake has started a series of posts explaining why he disagrees with same sex marriage over &lt;a href=&quot;http://wisertime.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/case-against-same-sex-marriage-1/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jake has started a series of posts explaining why he disagrees with same sex marriage over <a href="http://wisertime.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/case-against-same-sex-marriage-1/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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