Fight, Apology, Reconciliation?

I’ve been getting a few emails about this and I guess I should at least mention it before more untrue rumors spread.

There was an isolated incident at the World Humanist Congress where two people — Greydon Square (rapper) and Brian Sapient (Rational Response Squad) — got into a fight. The fight was initiated by Greydon (who was soon escorted away by police). Brian had to be taken to the hospital. I spoke to him today. He’s still hurting, but he’s fine.

In any case, this posting is fairly accurate in discussing what happened. It leaves out some details, but it gets the big picture right.

You can read Brian’s response to everything here.

This morning, Greydon issued a statement of his own.

Obviously, no one wanted this to happen, but hopefully, they can work out their differences. I know we’d be losing a tremendous talent if Greydon were to now be shunned. And as much as I dislike some of what RRS does, Brian’s an important voice for atheists as well. This shouldn’t be either person’s defining moment.


[tags]atheist, atheism[/tags]

  • http://www.youtube.com/user/ElusiveAnole Matt

    Greydon’s apology says he had a “beef” with Ellen Johnson & Michael Shermer. What happened there? I’m so not up-to-date on non-religious drama.

  • http://nogodsallowed.wordpress.com Chad

    Call me old fashioned, but I miss the days when a couple guys could throw a few punches, pick each other up and shake hands, and come to a resolution. Hopefully there’s no lawsuits or hurt feelings. Sometime you just gotta throw down, then get jacked a few times yourself to get your head on straight.

  • Adrian

    Call me new fashioned, but it disgusts me when a guy thinks that violence is a way to settle disputes. If two guys want to step into a ring and beat each other to the floor, more power to ‘em. But as soon as one party withdraws consent, it’s a serious crime and should be treated as such, not just as boys being boys. It sounds like Brian never wanted a fight and never threatened violence yet was beaten into the hospital for which there is no excuse.

  • Siamang

    Deplorable.

    Maybe these people need religion to get them to behave like something more than a fucking six-year-old.

  • jonathan

    Ahhhhh!!!! you’re getting drama all over my internets!!!

  • Damo

    Is it just me or every time I hear about the RRS it’s always in a negative context. I’ve been to their web site a couple of times and most of it was the same ol’ same ol’,so I haven’t been really been interested what their activities are. They seemed to me to be just another atheist group, doing what athiest groups do.

    But all the rumours about behaviour by various members of RRS I’ve gleamed from various blogs and web sites, is it a case where their is flies there’s shit?

    I don’t know, I suppose I’ve already been influenced by these rumours and I cannot assess their behaviour without predjudice and frankly couldn’t be bothered spending the time doing it either. But whatever the situation these guys have got a reputation , and they need to deal with that. Or as the saying goes ” You need to go inside the Hall of Mirrors and have a good, hard look at yourself !”

  • Rayven Alandria

    Sadly, we have sheeples in the Atheist community as well. The RRS groupies swallow whatever they are spoonfed. It’s highly disturbing and more than a little nauseating. The RRS version of events is not true but there are idiots who will believe it. I choose not to.

    The RRS does not represent all Atheists…they are the bottomfeeders of our *community*. I used to think they were rather amusing and bold, but after getting to know them my opinion changed. I stopped associating with them a long time ago. I know Brian well enough to know what kind of person he is…and I have nothing good to say about him…nothing.

    Greydon is a good man…Yes, he let Brian push his buttons and he beat him up…now he has to pay the price for that , whatever it ends up being. Do I think Brian had it coming? Yes, a hundred times over.

  • BoxerShorts

    Fight? This wasn’t a fight, it was an assault.

    I know Brian is unpopular among some atheists. I had some minor issues with him during my brief involvement with RRS (I don’t know if I’m still a “Rational VIP” on their forums — I haven’t been there in ages). I wouldn’t go so far as to say I dislike him, but I can understand why some people do. He can be abrasive and unpleasant on occasion, and that was certainly a factor in deciding that the RRS wasn’t the right place for me.

    That said, saying he “had it coming” is like saying girls who wear short skirts “have it coming” if they get raped. It doesn’t even matter if the RRS account of the incident is true or not. I don’t know; I wasn’t there. But even if it isn’t, Greydon’s behavior was inexcusable.

    I used to like and respect Greydon Square, but as of this incident, not anymore. He’s officially a disgrace to the atheist community, and the sooner he disappears into obscurity, the better.

  • Rayven Alandria

    There is a difference between a girl wearing sexy clothes and a guy ripping people off and then acting like he has the right to…so don’t try that line of bullshit…it won’t fly.

    You can choose to hate Greydon…that’s your choice. I’m not going to attempt to change your mind because quite frankly, I don’t give a shit. You base your opinion on rumors and bullshit…I base my opinion on personal experience. My opinion of Brian was not formed due to this incident, it has to do with another incident that I was present at, and had a fight with him about. I know what kind of person he is and how his mind operates, I’ve seen it in action…I know what kind of man Greydon is and how his mind operates…using that data and I can easily determine the truth of this matter…and I could care less whether you or anyone else agree with me.

    Feel free to have your opinion, I’ll defend your right to have it even if I disagree with it….just don’t bother trying to rationalize it with nonsense. Just state how you feel and leave it at that.

  • http://www.rationalresponders.com Kellym78

    So, Rayven is now declaring her omniscience? It’s either that, or she is disregarding the testimony of two reliable, non-biased eyewitnesses. Either way, it’s pathetic for anybody who claims to be a skeptic to make such a biased judgment in the face of contrary evidence. Somebody needs to set their personal OPINION aside and use reason and evidence to decide–not emotion. Get over it.

  • BoxerShorts

    My newly-formed opinion of Greydon is based on multiple accounts — all of which seem to be in agreement, including his own — that he violently attacked another human being. Nothing more, nothing less.

    How exactly is that bullshit?

    You are of course entitled to your opinion as well, but saying that mine is based on bullshit… is bullshit.

    I am not — repeat, not — defending Brian in any way. It’s been a long time since I’ve paid any attention whatsoever to him or rest of the RRS. I nearly forgot they existed until this story popped up. I have no idea what they’re up to. If Brian ripping people off, then yes, he should be held accountable. But “being held accountable” does not mean “having his ass kicked.”

    (And please spare us the hyperbole about me “hating” Greydon. I said neither that nor anything that could be reasonably interpreted as that.)

  • Rayven Alandria

    You have to be kidding me …

    Kelly…for those who don’t know…please reveal who you are…you are Brian’s girlfriend and co-host. Non-biased witnesses…are you serious? LOL

    Boxer…reread your post…you stated that Greydon is a disgrace and should disappear…I’m pretty sure most people would extrapolate what I did from that comment.
    You have every right to feel that no one ever has the right to beat the crap out of another person…and modern law agrees with you. I’m stating that I don’t.

  • Adrian

    Rayven,

    What if Greydon beat up a young woman, how would your vigilante justice feel then? If he had a legitimate case, the law will deal with it which is extra reason to think that he was in the wrong.

    How would you feel if you had to do business with a client that was bigger and stronger than you, and had put business partners in the hospital when he got upset? That’s how the mob works, and that very real threat of physical violence is not healthy, it isn’t moral, and thankfully it isn’t legal.

  • http://www.rationalresponders.com Kellym78

    Hey Rayven–I’m NOT one of the eyewitnesses. Get your head out of your ass and try reading.

  • Rayven Alandria

    Kelly, I’m not going to bother bickering with you..your boyfriend was the one beaten up, I can understand how you must feel and I will not keep arguing with you. You feel the need to vent some of that rage…go ahead and vent.

    Adrian, I understand your perspective…I even understand Boxer’s. I did not say Greydon should have beaten Brian up…I stated that I probably would have done the same thing under the same circumstances. Sometimes crooks do deserve an ass-whooping…and yes, we are not supposed to do such things…so yes, I would have landed in jail and I would have accepted the consequences of my decision…just as Greydon has done.

  • BoxerShorts

    “Boxer…reread your post…you stated that Greydon is a disgrace and should disappear…I’m pretty sure most people would extrapolate what I did from that comment.”

    Only if they have a different definition of the word “hate” than I do. I always thought it meant “to intensely or passionately dislike someone,” rather than “to consider someone a liability due to incidents of violent behavior.”

    But I’m not interested in getting into a semantic argument.

  • http://thescienceethicist.blogspot.com/ Aerik

    I’ll have to be on a lookout for all the disgusting people, atheist and theist alike, who delight in the physical violence visited up on Brian Sapient.

  • Darryl

    People are a bit keyed-up about this. Well, I don’t know either of these two, but it’s like Daddy used to say, “It takes two to tango.” Daddy was seldom original, but he was usually right.

  • Silvia

    Actually sometimes violence does solve things, as unpopular as that position is. I hate to admit it myself, in fact. But sometimes some people do need to get the shit kicked out of them before they stop acting like complete assholes. They just don’t seem to get the message otherwise.

    In Brian’s case, however, I see someone who has his head so far up his own ass no amount of ass-kicking could possibly straighten him out. All it does is drive his head further up.

  • http://thescienceethicist.blogspot.com/ Aerik

    @Matt: Ellen Johnson said atheists shouldn’t vote as a way to protest discrimination. It was really stupid. Michael Shermer, well that’s another thing, he’s the kind of ass who uses the “new atheism” and “militant atheist” crap to talk down to other atheists to boost himself up.

    @Siamang: Greydon was the violent one. Brian may have tried to defend himself, but he was not and is not a violent person. Why don’t you grow up and stop prejudicially summarizing people’s entire lives with erroneous generalities.

    @Rayven Alandria: good men just don’t resort to violence that quickly. Ot at all for issues such as selling CD’s. I suggest you re-evaluate your priorities concerning violence and ethics. Also, if you don’t give a shit about boxershorts’ opinion, why did you write such a long comment in response to it? Stop lying.

    @BoxerShorts: I agree with you. Nobody has that kind of violence coming to them who was not violent themselves, least of all Brian Sapient, who does his damned best to physically protect his family and the Bunker from personal threats via mail and phone and occasionally even personally. He even has to protect the people of the RRS forum from hacking attempts that other atheists do not have to put up with. It’s actually RRS’s greatest haters that are its biggest followers, and as seen here, these people are violent no matter who they decide to focus on.

    My best wishes go out to Brian and the RRS.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “Somebody needs to set their personal OPINION aside and use reason and evidence to decide–not emotion”

    That’s so true Kelly.

    Anyhow you said this on another forum

    “Yeah–I was there about 2 seconds after it ended while Brian was still getting up and I personally spoke to August Brunsman and Ashley who were in the room and listened to the police take their report and went to the hospital with Brian. I think I know the story asshole.”

    You think you know the story… but you don’t, you were not an eye witness. Your take of events are based on what Brian told you. You never actually said you were an eye-witness, but you presented facts as if you were and harassed others holding them to a higher standard than your self.

    Anyhow we don’t have Greydon’s side, and we won’t because he’s smart enough to STFU. Sapient on the other hand, is telling the world about your ex-husband with bi-polar disorder who according to him beat you. Kelly, how can you approve of him airing your dirty laundry.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    I can’t say I see, Brian’s as an important voice for atheists. For it to be important, he would have to set some goals, and achieve them. I can give them the blasphemy challenge, that was a good marketing. But let’s be fair, they are no Freedom From Religion Foundation. What do they do other than run a website, host a net radio show, and sell t-shirts and thongs?

    I’m willing to be wrong on this issue, but no one has ever been able to say briefly what they do other than talk. In fact, I find them to be a hindrance to the goal of making theists understand that freedom from religion isn’t a crime.

  • Anonymous (well not realy)

    I’m a frequent poster on this site, but I’m hiding my name for fear of people calling me a racist. Someone could probably figure out who I am from my previous postings, but whatever.

    Greydon, although seemingly intelligent and educated as evidenced by his rap songs, grew up in Compton. Areas like that, dominated by black gang culture, breed violent people. He may have left and went to the military and has clearly educated himself significantly. But apparently, the social mores of his upbringing haven’t left him.

  • Anonymous (well not realy)

    Whoops. Double post.

  • DSimon

    Anonymous, there’s good evidence that Graydon has a diagnosed mental illness, for which he wasn’t taking meds at the time, and which could easily have led to his violent outburst.

    So, totally apart from arguments about the validity of your theory: why bring in other hypotheses at all, when there’s already a solid explanation backed up by facts?

  • http://thescienceethicist.blogspot.com/ Aerik

    @IGExpandingPanda: Having the police’s reports first-hand is as close as you could ask anybody. The police had all the witnesses’ stories, and they still only hauled off Greydon. Shouldn’t that say something to you? You are an asshole. That’s good evidence that what she’s telling about what the witnesses said are true and you know it.

    You act as if running a website and podcast and selling merchandise that displays tolerance towards atheists doesn’t do anything at all. I must ask: have you ever been declared clinically retarded? They do more than the Friendly Atheist or I do, that’s for damned sure, and you know that, so instead of giving them credit they deserve, you compare them to a bigger organization that actually has lawyers volunteering for it, and you make this gross false dichotomy between FFRF and everybody else, which curiously only you are exempt from the continuum.

    The stupidest part? Most of us will agree on the fora and comment threads that atheism is a non-position and can’t be defined as a dogma. But it’s the atheist/agnostic assholes like you who claim RRS misrepresents atheists that are the ones turning it into an ideology. Why don’t you stop taking ‘us’ backwards.

    Person A doesn’t need to be a good person for person B to fail and proving a proposition or belief in a proposition, nor for person B to be a bad person. Stop putting a burden of politics on a non-position such as atheism.

    Yeah, I disagree with the sexism and some of the violent jokes that I hear/read on the forum or the stickam conference room. But do you know how I fight that? I speak up about it when I’m around, and I don’t donate to them. If anything, by having a forum profile and not donating, I’m costing them money. That’s how I barely-actively do something about where I disagree with them.

    Finally, think about this, shitbrick: they have kids. Kids in the Bunker. When you act like Brian deserved this, you are saying that some kids deserve to be scared of having their father stolen from them, and that they deserve the stigma. And what makes you a sick fuck that I do not wish to ever associate with.

  • BoxerShorts

    I’ve thought this through a bit more over my evening workout, and I’ve decided to back off a bit from my previous statements. I’ll withhold personal judgment and defer to the authority and expertise of the courts. If Greydon is found guilty of assault, then he’s a disgrace to the atheist community and needs to quietly disappear into obscurity as quickly as possible.

    And if it’s true that Brian is ripping people off (something I’d not heard before this kerfuffle, and again, will withhold personal judgment on), then he is a disgrace to the atheist community and needs to disappear into obscurity.

    And if they’re both guilty, then they’re both disgraces. Brian’s disgrace would not absolve Greydon of his disgrace.

  • http://badidea.wordpress.com Bad

    No one deserves to be physically assaulted, no matter what they’ve done (short of endangering someone else physically).

    I’m not sure what to think about all the accusations that this incident was the result of Greydon not taking his meds: that may or may not be true, and that may or may not mitigate his immediate actions somewhat, though not his decision to do without them if he knew that they could lead to problems. People seem to be reading too heavily into that aspect in some ways, which is a mistake given how hard that factor is to evaluate in situations like this.

    I’m not a fan of Sapient, and even his posting about this incident just reminds me all the more about what I find irritating about him, but he has every right here to press charges no matter what he did or didn’t do. I hope that some sort of remorse and reconciliation can happen instead, but there’s no excuse for this sort of violence.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “And if they’re both guilty, then they’re both disgraces. Brian’s disgrace would not absolve Greydon of his disgrace.”

    That’s fair comment. Both people should be ashamed.

    The only point I’m trying to drive home is that like you said Brian’s disgrace does not absolve Greydon (though in a court it will be considered as mitigating circumstances) , Greydon’s disgrace shouldn’t absolve Brian. The dude at the very least according to his own statement neglected to ship out CDs people paid for for 2 months. And Brian’s statement, his only explanation was that it was too hard (to mail out CDs once a week @ 1500% profit).

    Keep in mind also we are talking, at least according to Kelly, a charge of “minor assault” which is a misdemeanor in most states. We don’t know how serious the assault was, we don’t have photos or doctors reports, only that he didn’t need blood. We don’t know if Brian’s nose was broken.

  • Rayven Alandria

    Aerik…you’re an idiot but there is one thing I will agree with you about…the kids. It does bother me greatly when children are traumatized. I do feel bad about the children being upset.

    That said, sadly, there are times when a child is better off if a parent is *stolen* from them…not all parents are good parents…some are abusers, some are drug addicts, criminals etc…and yes, sometimes it’s actually better for a child to go through the trauma of having a parent taken from them than for the child to be raised by that parent…not saying that is the case here…I’m just sayin’…life can be complicated.

    It would be nice if you people would post evidence instead of expecting people to believe whatever you RRS groupies spout.

    For instance…Medical records showing Greydon is bi-polar? Where are they?
    …and how about we see the police report…and the statements from the *unbiased* witnesses.

    Greydon was charged with simple assault…I know most of you know nothing about the law…but that basically means he threw the first punch so he got hauled off. It’s what you get charged with when you get into a bar brawl or other minor confrontation…it’s a crime, and it was a dumb thing to do, but the charge is not really all that serious as far as assault charges go. It is still assault though, and he may have to spend a few days in jail or get a year or so of probation. Time will tell. Whatever the penalty, he will accept the consequences.

    It’s easy to make accusations and spread rumors… I can do it too…I have been told by many people that Brian and Kelly are drug addicts…should I start repeating those rumors? I have no evidence, just people’s word about what they saw or were told by others. There are many, many rumors flying about Brian, should we start taking everyone’s word for it like you have taken Brian’s word that Greydon is bi-polar went nuts because he’s off his meds?

    (BTW, the RRS folk could squash those rumors by taking drug tests every week and making all financial records public…so the world can see they are not addicts who are taking donations and snorting them up their noses, that they are not delinquent on all their bills, and that they did not pocket the money from the CD’s and refuse to mail them out…etc… If they don’t do drugs and don’t want people believing those rumors there’s a pretty easy way to kill the rumors. I won’t hold my breath though.)

    and…to explain how I can I write long posts but not give a shit about your or Boxer’s opinions…I am writing for the lurkers you idiot…not for you. You forget this is not a private conversation.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “@IGExpandingPanda: Having the police’s reports first-hand is as close as you could ask anybody. The police had all the witnesses’ stories, and they still only hauled off Greydon. Shouldn’t that say something to you? You are an asshole. That’s good evidence that what she’s telling about what the witnesses said are true and you know it.”

    I could be an asshole… but there are some things in Kelly’s account that don’t hold water. Like for example the claim it was an unprovoked attack. Unjustified yes, but there was serious provocation. It wasn’t an act of random violence. That’s the problem using a general dictionary for legal terms.

    The fact of the matter is, she wasn’t there, and has some serious personal bias. You can call me an asshole until you are blue in the face… it won’t change those facts. We still don’t have Greydon’s side, and we won’t because he was smart enough to issue an apology and shut up about a pending legal matter.

    He was charged with a minor assault, a misdemeanor in most states. He’ll get his day in court. She’s and Brian are presenting it like it’s something more, you know broken bones, actual bodily harm. Truth is I don’t know the extent of Brian’s injuries… but I do know Brian is trying to dodge the issue of not shipping the CDs for two months.

    There are some other things in this response i’m not going to touch because they are hardly relevant to this discussion.

    But needless to say, listening to accounts after the fact ISN’T THE SAME AS BEING THERE. You know it, I know it. Kelly should have expressly said, according to SOMEONE ELSE’S eyewitness testimony.

    “Finally, think about this, shitbrick: they have kids. ”

    Yes they do… Brian has 1, Kelly has 3. Brian was nice enough to tell us Kelly was married to a bi-polar man who beat her behind closed doors. Tell me, did I did to know this. I can’t help but to wonder if this chronic abuser has custody of her kids. But this is beside the point, Kelly has a job. Sapient does not. But sapient got $208,000 for his house, so the dude isn’t hurting. Plus he has t-shirt sales, room rental to cover the mortgage..etc..etc.. He might have to downgrade his webhosting to cover medical expenses, but after losing Greydon this wouldn’t be a burden, and he might get a properly configured webserver to boot.

    The reason why I know this is because Brian is doing every thing in his power to play off emotion to get sympathy. I’ll send the dude a get well card soon, but really… getting punched in the face does not equal domestic violence. sorry. It was wrong… unjustified, criminal.

    The only thing I can ask of any of you is to be honest, be factual, and don’t leave out important details… like not being an eye witness or painting someone as a wifebeater who isn’t married. But if I was in Greydon’s shoes, I’d send him a registered letter asking for arbitration, as after the bullshit with not shipping CDs for 2 mouths, I too would want to punch the guy in the face. That doesn’t make me an asshole, that makes me human.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “Aerik…you’re an idiot but there is one thing I will agree with you about…the kids. It does bother me greatly when children are traumatized. I do feel bad about the children being upset.”

    I don’t know if there are any kids in the bunker. It’s a 4 bedroom house with at least 5 adults stying there. I do recall a video when sapient got the money for the house that he talked about his kids bedroom. But can you imagine Brian, Kelly, Rook, Lori, Mike #5, and 4 extra kids?

    Brian near as I’m aware is not father to Kelly’s kids. I don’t know if the abusive bi-polar man is the father, or if he has custody.

  • Rook

    So Mike lives here too? Shit, news to me. Apparently the blog-tards are also lying about who lives here and who doesn’t. There are four adults who live in this house, three of which have jobs outside of RRS to support themselves; Lori has her own career which she works sometimes more than 40 hours a week for to help support bills because the RRS just does not do it.

    I’ll tell you what IGExpandingPander, you can become a voice in atheism (not for atheism) and get big, get death threats, and see if, after some whacked out Christian discovers where one of your kids goes to school at, you can give out YOUR financial records and personal information so that other religious nutjobs can come and snatch them up because some douchebag wanted to be an internet nitwit and couldn’t mind their own damn business.

    Moron. You should be going after the real threat – theism. If you’re too stupid to think critically beyond blog posts from haters who also, apparently, can’t think critically, you don’t belong as part of a community who espouses reason over emotion. Clearly you cannot use a level of reason necessary to function beyond a high school capacity.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “they do more than the Friendly Atheist or I do, that’s for damned sure, and you know that, so instead of giving them credit they deserve, you compare them to a bigger organization that actually has lawyers volunteering for it, and you make this gross false dichotomy between FFRF and everybody else, which curiously only you are exempt from the continuum.”

    Dear Aerik

    You’re right, it’s a gross false dichotomy to compair the RRS with the FFRF. No one but a real freaking moron would do that, well, except for Brian Sapient.


    “We are equally as effective as FFRF and WOTM at what we do, and we do it with one tenth the income”
    –Sapient 13Nov2007

    “RRS is fiscally responsible!

    At their recent convention FFRF (Freedom from religion foundation) boasted a membership base of over 11,000 people. They have memberships ranging from $25-$500 (most memberships are $50 or more). If we take an average of $50 per member at 11,000 people they are pulling in $550,000 a year to maintain their organization. Our gross income will be about 1/10th that number for this year. AND WE GET MORE TRAFFIC!

    We also get more traffic than Way of the Master: Way of the Master currently has a donation drive (above and beyond the hundreds of thousands they pull in on merchandise) to help keep their tv show alive. They’ve raised almost $400,000 in a few weeks. Again this is above and beyond the money they take in on merchandise. Putting your ideas in the marketplace is not cheap.

    We are equally as effective as FFRF and WOTM at what we do, and we do it with one tenth the income. “

    So you see, you shouldn’t express anger at me for comparing the RRS to the FFRF foundation. You should express your anger at Brian Sapient. That’s some serious hubris.

    However, you make the claim that the RRS does more than Me, You, and the friendly atheist. Ok… what do they do? Break it down so a child can understand. You have the Atheist challenge, putting some copies of “The God That Wasn’t there” in churches, a blood drive that went poorly. You have their debates, but really they for the most part don’t go too well. They sat on the arses for the Anonymous protests.. I’ve asked what they did, but no one has an answer. Near as I’m aware they just run a net radio show, and run a website, and somehow think they are as good as the FFRF. But you tell me what do they actually do.

    Sorry this post was so long…. I don’t want to be branded a liar.

  • Rayven Alandria

    Rook, Panda didn’t make the comments about RRS squelching the drug addict rumors by posting financial records and personal info…that was me…you know, the evil, uncaring bitch who bought you college books back before I got to know Brian and stopped hanging with you guys. Up until now I have not had any problem with you or Kelly..in fact, I’ve never even spoken to Kelly before now…my problem has been with Brian…and he knows why. I know how dishonest and unethical he is….so quite frankly, I will assume he’s full of shit and spouting more lies until I see proof otherwise.

    I didn’t really expect y’all to take drug tests or post personal data…for more than one reason…not only would it put your families at risk, but quite frankly, I believe the rumors and it’s my opinion that Brain and perhaps a few more of you are drug addicts. If y’all do take drugs but can’t seem to afford to mail off the CD’s people paid for, I seriously doubt you’d be agreeable to posting financials. It wasn’t a serious suggestion..it was designed to make a point and to incite a reaction.

    Can I prove Brian or any of you do drugs? Hell no, I’m just being honest and admitting that I lean towards believing those rumors. Would I post blogs spreading those rumors? No…I was trying to make a point here that people should stop believing what y’all are posting without seeing proof. Your groupies are nothing more than a cult….and it disturbs me to see them accept everything y’all say as if it’s accurate and truthful.

    (BTW…you might want to ask yourself who it was Brian placed the blame on when he was first confronted about the unmailed CD’s.)

  • http://www.rationalresponders.com Brian Sapient

    Just wanted to see something of actual importance and relevance to our common good posted in this thread. It’s important that the atheist voice be heard, it’s important that we’re not counted out, it’s important that we don’t have rights taken from us by a so called moral majority who would dictate to us how we should live our lives because a 2000 year old book teaches them what to force on us.

    And a freebie for the Christians: Being atheist doesn’t necessarily make a person rational or guarantee they will always make claims based on evidence or reason. (see some of above comments)

    All the accusations aimed at Greydon and/or myself won’t change that.

    As you were.

  • http://www.youtube.com/DeamonCohln DeamonCohln

    Hell, just take it like we do in the great game of hockey.

    You get angry, you throw down the gloves, take a few swings at each other. get back up, and find a newfound respect for the guy you just rumbled with. 5 minutes in the box. You get free. Get back to the game.

    Sometimes two guys just got to throw down. it happens.

  • Damo

    Ok…yeah…alright .. erm.. Thanks to the members of the Rational Response Squad for turning up and clearing up a few things for me.

    Great… right…Thanks. Thank you.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “So Mike lives here too? Shit, news to me. Apparently the blog-tards are also lying about who lives here and who doesn’t.”

    Actually that would be Sapient rook. Perhaps he was making a joke, but I’m willing to admit when I’m wrong, if Mike doesn’t live with you, he doesn’t. He lives near enough to you to host the show sometimes, and open one package. That’s still 4 adults + sapient’s kid presuming he still lives there. I don’t see there being room for 4 extra rug rats. But still… $208k for the house, what what was it, an extra $3400 from Lori?

    But I’ll make sure to post a retraction on Dawkins.

    “There are four adults who live in this house, three of which have jobs outside of RRS to support themselves”

    This is some serious entitlement Rook. You want to be full time activists then? Ok… what do you actually do other than host a web site, do a little radio show, write bad porn, and blog? Nothing wrong with making a salary with activism, but I ask this question often, what does the RRS do?

    “I’ll tell you what IGExpandingPander, you can become a voice in atheism (not for atheism) and get big, get death threats, and see if, after some whacked out Christian discovers where one of your kids goes to school at, you can give out YOUR financial records and personal information so that other religious nutjobs can come and snatch them up because some douchebag wanted to be an internet nitwit and couldn’t mind their own damn business.”

    But here’s the kicker. Sapient gives out his personal information, gives out Kelly’s personal information. Hell Kelly told Radar where she worked. I’m empathic but that was pretty dumb.

    That being said, you want to be donation based but want no accountability. Fair enough, don’t file for 501(3)c. But when people ask what you do, you should tell them. That being said… The actual expenses of the RRS near as I can tell are the website. Sapient wants $11,600. Dream on. You guys get about 25mesages/day near as I can tell.. so $10/month should cover it, perhaps $50 or $100 for virtual or co lo. You’re buying servers way too often, the only explanation is you want to start your own hosting business and want to foot the bill with donations. But you don’t get something for nothing… and no one in their right mind will pay to support the RRS freedom from work crusade. You need to do something… what do you do? You want money, where will it go. Giving Kelly two weeks off work? If you pulled that from the server fund that’s embezzlement dude. And offering to funnel money through a 501(3)c organization (Freethought Society of Greater Pennsylvania). Don’t know if that’s close to being legal.

    If you can’t even be bothered to ship out CDs once a week… why do you think people will give you money if you don’t meet your commitments?

    As far as your private lives… businesses have no expectation for privacy. You have my sympathy, but BS and Kelly shouldn’t broadcast their dirty laundry. Rational adults know this.

    As for dealing with fundies, I hear you. It can be a pain. But near as I can tell you’re not out in the streets protesting pedophile priests, fighting legislation that that threatens the barrier of church and state. In fact, I don’t know what you do, you don’t say. It seems like you sit in your bunker and talk a big talk… but when it comes down to real work… you can’t be bothered to mail CDs once a week.

    Have you ever confronted fundies at abortion clinics? Have you ever said point blank “Are you willing to to pay for the birth and adopt this kid? No, GTFO”.. The truth is you have no idea what I do, my ideals or goals. You are presuming you are better than me. You could be right. I DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU DO, YOU WON’T SAY.

    As for your business, you can’t construct a website using Drupal. That’s sad. And you guys want over $10,000 for the privilege of sitting on your cans and yapping online? No! Learn the trade, do the work, get paid. Nothing wrong with web hosting, none of you can script or make a diagram and execute it.

    “Moron. You should be going after the real threat – theism.”

    Nice suggestion if the proposition were true. Theism isn’t the problem. Theism is just, at best, a false archaic idea. Think you are going to rid the world of theism? Look in the newspaper… people still check their horoscopes… and not just working joes… heads of state. Rots of Ruck.
    Theism isn’t the problem. The problem is dogmatic narcissistic douchebags that amass power by blind followers and discourage free thought and expression. This is Jerry Farwell, this is Kent Hovind. This is Brian Sapient. In fact, the only real difference between Brian Sapient and Kent Hovind, was the fact that Kent Hovind was good at what he does.

    Look at your self. Always attack, never defend. You are being as dogmatic about your crusade as the leaders of Scientology. Sapient is the threat to freedom from religion, and the sooner you wake up and smell the fucking coffee the better.

    “apparently, can’t think critically,”

    You mean, I don’t give the the Ayatollah of atheism unquestionable trust and loyalty. That’s what you mean, and it’s a compliment… I ain’t dogmatic. I am not a joiner, but there are a few groups I support.

    “you don’t belong as part of a community who espouses reason over emotion”

    You sir, are a co-founder in the tree house cult. Reason over emotion? You attack me because I am critical of your leader (I love the leader the leader is love, when I’m not with him, I feel like a schlub). You didn’t address the claim, you went for weak ad hominems. Is that your adopting reason?

    The moment you close you mind to criticism, the moment you think you’re always right, you’re never wrong you know what you got? DOGMA. And guess what… you might as well be a cult. Use some critical self reflection, fix your self before you tilt at windmills.

    The best way IMHO to prove to the Christians that being an atheist is by being a better Christian as an atheist. Be a citizen of earth, not pseudo-cult leaders in your own little empire. Do some charity work, work in a soup kitchen, volunteer in the community. Do some damn work for a change.

    “Clearly you cannot use a level of reason necessary to function beyond a high school capacity.”

    Rook… you only graduated from high school, so did Sapient. Kelly might have some community college under her belt, but it doesn’t show. Sapient is unemployed, you work part time in a book store, and Kelly is a stripper. Respectfully NONE of you are functioning beyond a high school capacity. Sapient’s spelling is the real kicker, not that I’m any good my self… but please he’s at a 4th grade level.

    Rook… go back to school. Get a degree… get some grants to do the work you want to do. Don’t beg for $20,000 worth of books, go to your local ivy league university library (U Penn). Get some basic writing courses under your belt. Publish papers in peer reviewed journals. Pay attention to the criticism… take it on board and improve your self. You’ve got an interest in an esoteric field, go for it man. Don’t be an e-begger.

    But here is my so called unreasonable analysis.
    1) Sapent fucked up
    2) Greydon fucked up
    3) Greydon was smart enough to STFU, and apologize
    4) Sapient isn’t man enough to admit he made a mistake. .
    5) The squad wants a ton of money but refuses to be accountable in any way, nor spell out what that money is being used for.

    If I’m wrong on point 4 & 5, prove it. Be responsible adults. Set goals… Meet them. Don’t expect something for nothing. If you live on public donations, you work for the public. Do your fucking jobs. If it’s too hard.. quit. Be accountable. be responsible. You guys screwed the pooch with Greydon, Dawkins, and certainly a few more real names in atheism are starting to see you for what you are… a bunch foul mouth pretenders who started a freedom from work club.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “It’s important that the atheist voice be heard, it’s important that we’re not counted out, it’s important that we don’t have rights taken from us by a so called moral majority who would dictate to us how we should live our lives because a 2000 year old book teaches them what to force on us.”

    Yes, that crazy old democratic movement. Thought it was just a fad but we can’t seem to give it up. Ephialtes was a douche, fuck democracy.

    Accept Sapient as your one true leader. Religion is a mind disorder… Sieg Heil

  • Rayven Alandria

    Man, how I love Pandas.

    That was such an awesome post I can’t even think of anything to add.

    Awesome.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “Man, how I love Pandas.

    That was such an awesome post I can’t even think of anything to add.

    Awesome.”

    I can think of something to add.

    This is what the RRS stands for… using the social stigma of mental illness as a “counter meme” (lulz) to push the idea that theists are less than human. Well guess what, that “meme” is already taken, by Hitler, by Stalin. Freedom of religion is a founding priciple in America, and is part of the UN declaration of rights. It’s all fun and games until a totalitarian douche bag decides one ideology conflicts with the state and gases millions of Jews, Gypsies, and anyone else who’s ideology isn’t compatible with the state . That’s Sapient….join the fucking human race and figure it out so called history expert. You make people think atheist = nazi.

    I don’t fucking know what’s best for the human race, and guess what, neither do you Rook. We scripted these human rights because we’ve seen the alternative.

    I will argue with a theist. I will get a theist to question whether their faith serves to improve them or tie them down. I will do everything in my power to kick the reason motor in gear and get someone to think for them selves. But as much as I will stand up for an atheist, I will stand up for a theist. Because I’m not a hypocritical douche with delusions of exclusive entitlement. If that means standing up for the rights of someone to worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster, it’s a small fucking price.

    The only thing more foolish than belief in god(s) is belief in demagogues. God(s) sit back and do nothing. Demagogue use emotions (religion is a mind disorder yay!) to amass power, use emotion to blind us of reason, and use social stigma to bring social change. Sapient is a dangerous demagogue. Rook, you;re a smart well read dude… wake up, it’s 1984.

    “Difference of opinion is advantageous in religion. The several sects perform the office of a Censor – over each other” —Thomas Jefferson

    Difference of opinion is advantageous. It gives us a chance to explore ideas that we otherwise wouldn’t think about. You put forth your ideas to the public arena and test them. You can either live in your bunker or become a functional member of the human race. Bring about positive social change, do something to educate the public on their rights. Do something to promote freedom from religion as a legit choice. Respect the rights of others.

    And look in the fucking mirror…. I do things for my self, my country, my planet. And I know I don’t define my self based on belief in God(s). You can not say the same thing because your whole business is based on belief in the God(s), and your label is RRS. I don’t have a label. I’m a free thinking human being whose got the freedom of speech same as you.

    It’s the 21st century. Up until now the biggest collectives have been religions and countries. We are now a global civilization with a planetary network where a single idea can propagate to millions milliseconds. Boarders are obsolete. Anonymous understands this. For an idea achieve this propagation it’s gotta be accepted by the greatest number of people. RRS can’t grasp this.. On the internet they are all noise and no signal, the tree house cult of hatters. We do nothing but brand the RRS with it’s own values and the rest takes care of it self. Don’t like this, get Sapient to resign and adopt new values.

  • http://badidea.wordpress.com/ Bad

    Just wanted to see something of actual importance and relevance to our common good posted in this thread.

    I’ll be charitable and assume that this is just an anonymous parody of Sapient, rather than the real deal.

  • http://www.plognark.com Plognark

    Hey, we should start a Greydon Square defense fund collection.

  • http://www.rantsnraves.com Pavlov’s Dog

    This is Pavlov’s Dog checking in from http://www.rantsnraves.org again. I agree with Chad. It was a fight, or at least it should have been. It happens. All this drama about Greydon being an animal and a vicious criminal is unnecessary. My guess is that Sapient is just bad at defending himself. They should kiss and make up, and then go back to spreading their propaganda, so that future lulz may be had.

  • wwyoud

    RE: Death threats – don’t other prominent atheists have family, too? They don’t seem as worried about such threats that they never leave home. Look at Meyers and Dawkins going to see Expelled! Perhaps it’s WHAT RSS says about theists and HOW they go about making their point; it has always seemed childish, condescending, and deliberately provocative, and that’s rarely a way to win a debate. They seem to want to pick fights rather than change minds. Plus the whole “look at me, I sleep with a brilliant stripper. She can display a lot of cleavage to confuse the theists we debate” comments are just stupid. It’s one thing to be “in your face”; I can see where it’s needed in fighting a majority theocratic movement and appreciate it. But there’s a line where challenging the other side becomes just juvenile trouble-making for the current hot cause. There should be something more, something that makes those to be convinced see a positive reason to join – and I’ve never seen that with RSS.

  • http://www.plognark.com Plognark

    The replies to this blog post are really going places! I’m excited! :D

  • siamang

    Siamang gets some popcorn.

  • Rayven Alandria

    I wanted to make the same point here that I made in another blog…so I’m taking the lazy road and pasting my post instead of rewording it…

    There is the law…and then there is ethical behavior…sometimes the two are in conflict.

    We all know the law states Greydon had no right to beat up Sapient..some believe what he did was unethical, some believe what he did was ethical under the circumstances. We will just have disagree on that one.

    Brian was ripping customers off..whether he wants to blame a “volunteer” Rook and Kelly, or Santa Clause…it’s not relevant…bottom line, it was he who was making Greydon look bad by not mailing out CD’s…and when confronted he acted like a smug, arrogant, piece of shit. The letter of the law may be on his side, it may not be…but even IF it is…what he did was unethical and criminal. Each unmailed CD is a felony…it is federal mail fraud. Some think he deserved getting his ass whooped, some say his behavior doesn’t justify what happened…again, we can choose to disagree on this one.

    The point is, both men committed an act that many people feel is unethical and both acts are criminal offenses. Greydon has accepted the consequences of his actions and is stepping up to the plate to receive whatever punishment society deems necessary. What’s Brian doing? Take a good look at him and ask yourself that question.

    Here is one point I have not seen brought up yet, so I will…

    For those of you who state that Brian’s criminal and unethical behavior does not justify what Greydon did…why have you not slammed Brian for telling the public that Greydon is bi-polar and off his meds? What he has stated is slander and just another example of how unethical Brian is. Even IF the allegations are true, it is unethical as hell to reveal another persons medical history to the public without their consent….and it could be illegal. It’s a rather gray area when it comes to individuals, but businesses and organizations can be sued for divulging such info…and since the RRS presents itself as an organization…guess what? They can be sued for releasing personal information like that.

    The RRS cult seems to think they are allowed to behave in unethical and criminal ways but they don’t think anyone else should be able to…that’s a double standard.

    _____________________

    In closing…my take on the whole bunker shit….there may be some credibility to the fear of death threats and attacks..I have stalkers I am hiding from, so I can relate to that fear…BUT…in all honesty, my opinion is that it is just one more of Brian’s manipulations…he inflates his importance and uses the *death threats* as a way to sponge off the public and hide in his house. The truth is, he’s just a loser, Howard Stern wannabe trying to find a way to get rich without getting a real job. He wants to sit on his ass socializing online and get rich doing it…simple as that. He uses everyone he comes in contact with and he’s always scheming for ways to make a quick buck off the sheeples. The RRS really doesn’t do anything more than stir up controversy…they are more of a joke than anything else, but Brian has convinced himself and a small following that they are important. In my opinion, they have contribulted nothing but embarrassment to the Atheist community.

    As for Kelly being a stripper…personally I see nothing wrong with being a stripper, I even think prostitution should be legal…BUT I will admit I ran into some seriously awkward moments back when I associated with the RRS and tried to spread the word about their TV appearances…without fail, the first thing out of everyone’s mouth was along the lines of “Oh you mean that loser guy and the stripper slut? Don’t you realize they put them on TV to purposely make Atheist look like lowlives?”….This was coming from other Atheists, not Christians…and it was hard to come up with a good response. I admit that although I don’t care that Kelly is a stripper, I found myself wishing she worked in a more socially acceptable profession.

    There are many people who have devoted their lives to the Atheist cause, if you want to call it that, and it does make me sad that they are ignored by the networks. The Networks know what draws viewers…that’s why they chose Brian and his crew for those spots…and Brian and the RRS don’t seem to understand that being chosen was not a compliment. They just don’t get it. They were chosen because they make us look bad.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “I admit that although I don’t care that Kelly is a stripper, I found myself wishing she worked in a more socially acceptable profession.”

    I don’t have a problem with her being a stripper either. I do have a problem when people like Rook accuse me of not being able to function above a high school level (unlike the RRS) when we have
    1) The slacker
    2) The part time book clerk
    3) The stripper
    Unlike the childish, the above are FACTS.

    I don’t have a problem with her stripping. It’s damn good money, so good it’s hard to get out of. But let’s be fair, it’s not something that requires anything beyond a high school education. And she’s 30, he can’t strip her whole life…. and the RRS is not really a viable enterprise because

    1) Current management can’t ship out products
    2) Current management can’t maintain the site

    And that’s the bottom line. Sapient can’t do the job. Period. He needs to resign. I don’t have a problem with someone earning a salary for activism, but if you can’t do the job you should be fired.

    BTW Rayven Alandria, can you post a link to your blog? I’ll add it to the Dawkins list. People need to make up their own minds about the RRS.

  • Nialler

    Alexandra,

    I think that it would be a good idea to keep your ideas regarding drug use and the RRS to yourself; you have provided no evidence whatever to substantiate those claims. As an aside, I note that you have always had an inflexible ethical code which seems to go: “what I do is ethical and what I don’t do is therefore unethical”. This shit is not that simple; sometimes stuff that you don’t do is ethical or allowable in others’ views. You’ve always been this way. You espouse a form of polyamory and then lecture on sexual mores. It’s judgmental.

    So, OK, you don’t do drugs. Other people do. That doesn’t make them immoral or unethical. It certainly does not make them drug addicts. As always, you impose your rigid moral framework on others.

    I have no idea whether the RRS are indulging in drug orgies. Neither have you, and your innuendo-laden suggestions do you no good. You refer to “rumours”. State the source and be damned for it. Bring it into the open.

    But don’t bring your suspicions and your innuendo to the table. They are worth nought.

    And, for what’s it worth, I have a record of challenging people on rumour-mongering. I’m no friends of the RRS core; they certainly do not like me. By the same token, they at least merit that those who attack them be held to the same standards as those that others are demanding of them.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    Which blog Panda? I posted something about the mess on my myspace page, but the blog I was referring to above was someone else’s…

    http://theusernamejoewastaken.blogspot.com/2008/06/brian-sapient-and-greydon-square.html

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    Nailler.. My name is not Alexandra.
    It’s okay though, since I do consider it a beautiful name.

    My point was to demonstrate that we should not spread rumors…you’re bright enough to have gotten that. No way in hell would I drag others into this mess but stating who told me Brian is an addict…that would be wrong. If they want to come forward, that is their decision to make, not mine.

    I could care less if the RRS or anyone else do drugs. I think all drugs should be legalized. If someone uses drugs responsibly I have no problem with it…if they take *donations* for a cause and snort it up their nose…I start to have a problem with it. Call me a judgmental bitch for that…okay, I’m fine with that.

    Yep, I’m judgmental…that’s what INFJ’s are….can’t change my core personality and would not want to. If it rubs you the wrong way, I’m sure you won’t die from it. I have the right to say whatever the hell I want to say as long as it is presented as my opinion and not published as fact…and you have the right to ignore me or gripe me out for it. The world will keep spinning.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “Which blog Panda? I posted something about the mess on my myspace page, but the blog I was referring to above was someone else’s…”

    Yes, that one is indexed.

    Sorry if it looked like I was being snappy at you… I didn’t notice it was you who responded when I was responding to Tyro, who can’t seem to understand that copyright… is the right to copy a creative work.

    Sapient wants to kick and scream “I bought the CDs” ($1.00 for a 1000 production run). But he didn’t buy the music that goes on them. So long as the creator doesn’t sell off his copyright… (s)he and only (s)he have the right to choose when, where, and how the work is used (copied). There is fair use, but that’s not a right, only a defensible position.

    Sapient presumes he’s entitled to the money he spent making CDs. He presumes wrong. He’s an adult he made a choice to invest in Greydon Square, and actually got a sweet deal. 1500% profit and content to get hits on his site. He screwed the pooch. I highly doubt he’s out any money, but if he is… his choice his loss. If he was an adult, he would have gone with arbitration, where he did have a grievance. But he’s entitled to squat. In exchange for work he got 100% of sales and advertising.

    Greydon’s copyright, Greydon’s property.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    Oh, BTW…what are you talking about when you claim I lecture on sexual mores? Are you referring to how I used to fight with the pedophiles who targeted IIDB or something else? That comment confused me.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “Oh, BTW…what are you talking about when you claim I lecture on sexual mores? Are you referring to how I used to fight with the pedophiles who targeted IIDB or something else? That comment confused me.”

    Sorry I was refering to the blog you linked too. I was responding to Tyro and didn’t notice you responded after. I went in more detail as that shit belongs here as well.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    Panda…no you weren’t being snappy…I was annoyed that Tyro seems to think Brian had the right to sell CD’s even though Greydon asked him to stop…all Tyro keeps focusing on are legalities..when truthfully, sometimes what’s legal is not what’s ethical.

    Truthfully, Greydon should have protected himself legally when he chose to do business with Brian. He thought he was dealing with friends…it dissolved into a mess…the courts will have to sort all that out later.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    LoL…sorry panda..I was talking to Nialler when I asked what he was talking baout when he claimed I lecture on sexual mores…you posted while I was typing so my sidenote to him is out of order…I should have put his name in the post.

  • Nialler

    Alexendria,

    I don’t like your repetition of the drugs thing. I am very opposed to the way that the RRS conducts its business, but I think that every attack on that should be based in fact. You have raised an unproven (but possibly true) incident of drug use into drug abuse.

    You have no right to make any claim of that nature without good evidence.

    You haven’t even posted anecdotal “evidence”.

    And, yes, back at IIDB, you tended to take the view that others of a different viewpoint to yours were outside your ethical framework. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to search there, so I cannot provide links, but you had a record of condemning people who had alternative views on playamory; for one thing.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “I don’t like your repetition of the drugs thing. I am very opposed to the way that the RRS conducts its business, but I think that every attack on that should be based in fact. You have raised an unproven (but possibly true) incident of drug use into drug abuse.”

    Nailer, It was painfully clear that Alexendria was being hypothetical. However, you sir have a point. If we are going to speak hypothetically, we should make it an outlandish claim and not a realistic one, one that couldn’t damage their reputation. Like for example starting a rumor the RRS likes to wear swiss cheese on their heads and yodle.

    I can say for a fact I’ve never heard anyone say the RRS likes to wear cheese hats. The other hypothetical accusation, which I won’t repeat, is believable. But swiss cheese hats and yodeling… there is no emotional tag associated with this, it’s just plain silly.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    playamory? Ummm okay…That doesn’t show any previous prejudice towards me does it?…LOL …How judgmental of you…I’m crushed, really I am.

    I haven’t a clue what you’re referring to when you claim I lectured people on sexual mores, so I guess we’ll leave that behind.

    Okay Nialler…let’s run with this one though…

    How dare I repeat rumors about Brian being a drug addict who spends donations on drugs..You’re right…what a fucking bitch I was for saying that. I agree with you. What a really shitty thing to do…throw rumors out for the world to read without offering any proof. I’m an asshole.

    Kind of like how Brian is an asshole for posting crap about Greydon being bi-polar, suffering from paranoid delusions, and being off his meds…and how none of the RRS groupies bothered to ask him for evidence.

    …and that even IF it were true, it wasn’t his place to tell the world someone else’s personal business?

    Oh shit! Wasn’t that my point in the first place? It was so terrible when I did it…but it was okay when Brian did it…why?

    Funny how that worked out huh?

  • IGExpandingPanda

    And I have to offer an apology… I copy and pasted when I should have looked and saw Alandria.

    That being said… Alandria is clearly being hypothetical, but using a real rumor as an example. It would be better to use an example that people are not likely to believe, because if you repeat it enough times, people will associate the RRS with wearing swiss cheese on their heads, strapping on the liederhozen and yodeling. (this in place of the other rumor, memo to self photoshop this image).

    While “I” would do this… Alandria is 100% correct about the other rumor. People speculate that the RRS pockets donations and uses them for personal expenses and recreation. It would be wrong to repeat it, in fact, that’s her point.

  • Nialler

    Alandria,

    If I am to criticise someone it behoves me to first be free of criticism on that point.

    I think that Sapient has been free with the facts and I criticise him on that basis. By the same token, I don’t think that any criticism should be levelled unless it has at least a very solid basis that can be supported. Rumours have a viral means of gaining acceptance, and the only person that I hav eseen throwing out the drugs thing is you.

    WHen the Greydon thing emerged in a blog I went straight to the RRS and asked “Is this true?. I was pissed on for asking the question, but they reqlised eventually that they had no choice but to address the issue.

    If you hqve vqlid reqson to question their use or their abuse of drugs, believe me, I’ll ask that question as well. As it is, I see little evidence to support what appear to me to be wild claims.

    BUt if you’re going to “repeat rumours” at least have some balls about it. State your source and your own observations.

    I am the veryopposite of a fanboy for the RRS, but they at least deserve a fair trial by internet.

    Unattributed rumours do not count as evidence. If you are willing to defend them, then do do, but don’t give us the line that Brian’s claims about Greydon are equivqlent in scope. He is being criticised for those; people have been asking him to back them up. It is not a legitimate argument to instead offer up similarly loaded innuendo. That does not cut the mustard at all.

  • http://www.rationalresponders.com Brian Sapient

    I didn’t realize a public apology and acceptance of responsibility was necessary at the time, as I thought it was a given that I was responsible for the shipment of Greydons CDs and had stated already on my site this fact, which Hemant Mehta links to in his opening post. But to clear the air and reiterate, here is what I’ve posted on the issue.

    A version without mention of the altercation was posted to Greydons homepage. I apologize, I didn’t realize until now that a public apology in reference to the delay in CD shipments was the right thing to do. The above dissenters are correct about that, but not much more.

    Below is the version on Greydons homepage which I still host for free and don’t plan to leave him hanging on that. May I suggest one of the Greydon supporters here assist Greydon in building a new site, a better site, and host it for him? A move is as simple as changing the nameservers, which he controls.

    I was recently made aware that Greydon Square CDs were not being shipped properly due to a miscommunication with the volunteer who was handling the task. During this time I didn’t realize that some people may have thought that Greydon was responsible for the shipping, while that responsibility fell on myself and my volunteer. Anyone who ordered a CD from March 28th until this point is still waiting on their order. We will spend this weekend digging through paypal and resolving these unfulfilled orders. We have every intention of fulfilling all orders this weekend for shipping in Mondays mail and if we miss the mark, we will complete the job on Monday for shipping on Tuesday. There were a few disputed orders through paypal in which the consumer was given a refund, those orders will be fulfilled as well, and I apologize for any inconvenience. Greydon was not responsible for the shipping of his CD, that job fell on myself and my helper, we are sorry for any delay and any negative feeling this may have caused. For anyone that did not receive a CD but ordered before March 28th, I can assure you it was sent and can provide shipping information, as all orders were processed through paypal-usps online service that leaves transaction info, unfortunately it does not have tracking. Yes, USPS does lose mail sometimes. Here is the first link that came up on the issue. I just received an email yesterday from someone who received their CD yesterday… it was sent sometime in March.

    My apologies you should have your CD soon,

    Brian Sapient
    http://www.rationalresponders.com

  • http://www.rantsnraves.org Pavlov’s Dog

    Raven Alejandro makes some good points and some bad points.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “I didn’t realize a public apology and acceptance of responsibility was necessary at the time, as I thought it was a given that I was responsible for the shipment of Greydons CDs”

    How many days and how much in the way of kicking and screaming did it take for you to figure that out?

    You have to be pretty self absorbed to think everyone knows who you are and what you do. You name was NOT on the page. The ONLY reference to the RRS was small print on the paypal. And how many days did you waste, talking about Greydon’s mental health, Kelly’s violent ex… when you could have been… I dunno… shipping CDs?

    And what’s this
    “Additionally 1 in 4 Americans are dealing with a mental disorder. I don’t feel as if we should shut our mouths in regards to such statistics, and instead feel as if we should be able to openly discuss them. ” –BS

    The problem isn’t statistics, you were not discussing mental disorders, you were insulting the mentally ill… as usual. You were attempting to use the social stigma of mental illness to flag Greydon as a crazy loon that had no rational reason to be upset. You were doing your best to compare Greydon with Kelly’s ex-husband who beat her behind closed doors. What makes it think it was ok to do that. Kelly deserves some privacy about her past. This is your MO… if someone can’t accept your “rational” precept… they must be mentally deficient in some way.

    You, respectfully, don’t care about mental disorders. You use the stigma of mental illness to promote your petty cause. We have a word for it. You sir are a demagogue.

    Greydon holds down two jobs
    Greydon apologized
    Greydon was smart enough to shut up about the issue
    Greydon was willing from the start to accept accountability for his actions.

    The person who punched you in the face is the better man, and that’s pretty sad. And his action can be summed up as a momentary lapse of reason. What’s your excuse?

    Here is how I see it… your ego was more important than your business commitments. You saw that no one could discuss assault without the provocation. Once you figured this out, then you apologized somewhat, but did your best to explain away some mega shitty behaver. And what makes you the piece of work, is you don’t understand how it reflects on you when the only reason you do the right thing in the first place, is because of the critics. While Greydon should still get his time in front of a judge. You sir need to apologize to him. The shit you pulled… I wouldn’t do that to an enemy let alone a friend.

    And the funny thing is… you can’t manage a small time mail order operation yet you still want well over $10,000 to expand your web hosting to two servers. . Well, think of this as a blessing… without Greydonsquare’s site you can downsize and save money. But if you really really care about your cause. Resign! You can’t do the job.

  • Maria

    wow, I hope all this settles down soon. I hope Brian Sapient is doing okay and recovers soon. It is sad that it had to come to violence. that being said………we still need to hear more of Gryedon’s side. I’ve met him a couple of times and he seemed okay to me. Most of what’s out right now is RRS’s side. While I don’t wish Sapient harm of any kind, I have to say his post about the whole thing comes across as very condescending. He seems to almost make of fun of Greydon for having a “disease”. It’s that same mocking tone he uses on theists and on non-theists who disagree with him-anyone who doesn’t see things RRS’s way is deluded or retarded, as is also evidenced by some of the negative comments they’ve left on here, or how they treated people on here last December for not agreeing with them, or the false rumors they spread about Richard Dawkins. If Greydon really does have a mental disorder it’s no laughing matter and his behavior, although not excusable, is at least understandable. I have noticed RRS’s negativity seems to be making them enemies left and right and not just among the religious. (Do they really think ridicule is the best way to deal with mental illness??) And of course I’m not surprised that they are saying it was “premeditated” and threatening legal action. It seems they threaten everyone who disagrees with them with legal action. It’s almost sadly predictable.

    Hopefully this whole thing will settle down.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “He seems to almost make of fun of Greydon for having a “disease””

    Ding ding ding ding. And we don’t even know if Greydon HAS a “disease”, illness, or condition, or even if he does if it was a factor. Brian presented speculation as fact. I’m sorry he got hit, and he has every right to be upset, and even irate. But he had a choice to take the high road, or not.

    “we still need to hear more of Gryedon’s side”

    That’s true, but we have to wait for the trial. Like a smart man he offered an apology and shut up about a pending legal matter. Until then, we have the court of public opinion. Greydon was wrong, Sapient was wrong.

    “Hopefully this whole thing will settle down.”

    Well, in the case of Greydon, we can attribute his actions to a momentary lapse of reason. Not an excuse, but certainly a mitigating factor. The RRS…. I have no idea what they do other than run a website, a net radio show, and academy… and do their best to generate conflict and controversy. It’s effective, they get some free press, but you have to ask how their actions reflect on the atheist and free thought community.

    With Greydon, this was an isolated incident of violence. With Sapient, it’s his business model. I’m sure it will settle down, until the next drama whoring.

    “ment between Greydon and Brian ended in Greydon beating the crap out of Brian. Also apparently, our Mr. Square had a history of armed and unarmed assault (something about which I think few people knew).

    Here is Brian’s response. http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14187

    FOR THE RECORD, this country needs a lot more Brian Sapients, and in a world where Atheists are the most hated group in the country I think infighting (especially when it’s ACTUAL fighting) is impermissible. We are not lower animals.” — http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/index.php/2008/06/13/graydon_square_gossip_or_news

    The problem is IMHO Sapient makes atheists appear like lower animals, the same way tele-evangelists make religious leaders look but, except with your average tele-evangelist if they take your money for pope-on-a-rope… odds are you’ll get pope-on-a-rope. Evangelical atheism should be held to a higher standard.

  • http://www.churchofreality.org Rev. Real

    IGExpandingPanda:

    What is your real job? I’ve followed your tracks on the internet and you’ve spent a lot of time apparently here posting long winded replies:

    These are timestamps just from this blog.

    IGExpandingPanda:
    June 12, 2008 at 11:40 pm
    June 12, 2008 at 11:49 pm
    June 13, 2008 at 1:26 am
    June 13, 2008 at 1:52 am
    June 13, 2008 at 2:02 am
    June 13, 2008 at 2:36 am
    June 13, 2008 at 4:32 am
    June 13, 2008 at 4:40 am
    June 13, 2008 at 6:01 am
    June 13, 2008 at 4:27 pm
    June 13, 2008 at 5:14 pm
    June 13, 2008 at 5:22 pm
    June 13, 2008 at 6:07 pm
    June 13, 2008 at 6:37 pm
    June 13, 2008 at 10:04 pm
    June 14, 2008 at 8:31 pm

    And from the Richard Dawkins forum:
    Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:43 am
    Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:46 am
    Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:08 am
    Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:29 pm
    Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:38 am
    Wed Jun 11, 2008 1:28 am
    Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:13 am
    Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:10 pm
    Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:44 am
    Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:31 pm
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:27 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 12:43 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 1:15 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:06 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:39 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:52 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:15 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:10 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:43 am
    Fri Jun 13, 2008 6:42 pm
    Sat Jun 14, 2008 3:43 am
    Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:48 am
    Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:51 pm

    And I didn’t even track the forum Rants and Raves which you went on a posting spree

    What’s up with that?

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “What’s up with that?”

    When I grow up, I want to be just like Brian Sapient

    Buy my thong!

    (What makes you think I’m a single person :P)

  • http://www.churchofreality.org Rev. Real

    “What’s up with that?”

    When I grow up, I want to be just like Brian Sapient

    Buy my thong!

    You didn’t answer my question: What is your real job?

    (What makes you think I’m a single person :P)

    What do you mean by this?

    Edit: included quote tags

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “You didn’t answer my question: What is your real job?”

    I’m not obligated to answer your question. Really, I protest the Co$ among other things so for obvious reasons we don’t post personal details on the net. We made that mistake before and got harassed at work.

    It’s a good policy… some other people should adopt it :P

    But you do present a fair question, so let me just say between tasks I have some latency. Blogging helps keep my mind occupied.

  • http://www.churchofreality.org Rev. Real

    You already started to answer my question, but you’re still hedging.

    Given that you railed against Sapient for not having a real job at RRS, dontcha think protesting the Co$ is the same kind of “work”?

    Given that all the personal information is on the internet regarding Sapient’s relationship status, living situation, address to his home, children status, and his gf’s line of work, why did you need to mention it repeatedly on the internet?

    OK fess up: What is your real job? And by that I mean what job or income provides you the basics of living. Tell us more about what you do.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    More diversion tactics… sometimes they are almost amusing. What Panda or any other RRS critic does for a living is in no way relevant to what Brian does for a living….so not sure what your line of thinking is…

    Oh wait…lemme guess…

    The RRS, and Brian in particular, are being revealed for what they are…a bunch of losers…so let’s attack everyone else and try to present the *cough* logic that if some of the detractors are unemployed/underemployed, it must be okay for Brian to spend his life e-begging, scamming customers, and whatever other unethical things he does..

    Sure, that makes sense….LOL

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “More diversion tactics… sometimes they are almost amusing. What Panda or any other RRS critic does for a living is in no way relevant to what Brian does for a living….so not sure what your line of thinking is…”

    Yes I know… but I’m trying to get them to develop a conspiracy theory on the subject. You know, speculate, defame, basically make fools of them selves as they always do. (On noes! Another Christian conspirator – Evil!)

    It still would be overly obsessed with not-believing in something and their quixotic crusade. That’s what I don’t get. The last time they did something not related to atheism, that I’m aware of, was the nature sanctuary they did as a group. No useful community service (soup kitchen), museums (just a train ride away to the Smithsonian), concerts (too bad the Dead Milkmen lost their lead singer).

  • http://www.rationalresponders.com Brian Sapient

    “If Greydon really does have a mental disorder it’s no laughing matter and his behavior, although not excusable, is at least understandable.” – Maria

    Maria, now don’t you think I knew that? Don’t you think in some small way that when bringing this point up (a point that he’s told many others, and I believe he did publicly several times), I made it easier for people to understand why he may bave acted that way without simply reverting to a violent thug excuse?

    I was the only one in my circle of friends who after the event expressed, “I feel bad for him.” He was someone I care about very much, and still now care very much for, no malicious intent was meant, in fact it’s just the opposite. I apologized on my site, and apologize again to those who feel I meant harm… I didn’t. I’d retract the statement but it’s too late. I also have a real hard time understanding how I could’ve been misconstrued, because the contrary (no illness) looks much worse, as far as I’m concerned.

    Of course I recognize there are people who have a past beef with me or rrs and will cling to anything they can to hate on us. It seems as if some of the haters didn’t even read my statements. Had I said less it would’ve seemed I wasn’t being forthright, had I said more it would’ve been more of the same, as more details don’t make him sound better. I’m in a lose-lose with some people.

    Thankfully I have hundreds of people around me who can feel empathy, sympathy, understand my positive intent, and can wish me well. To those people, I thank you very much. And a special thanks to those people who dislike me for whatever reasoning but were capable of separating themselves from those feelings as it pertains to this issue.

    At this point we’re ready to move forward as it pertains to the online community. We’re ready to become even more active than before, hopefully concentrating on what we feel is our best quality: turning down times into positive times.

    This is likely the last time I’ll weigh in here, however I’m still keeping up to date at the thread on my site.

    - Sapient

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “I was the only one in my circle of friends who after the event expressed, “I feel bad for him.” He was someone I care about very much, and still now care very much for, no malicious intent was meant, in fact it’s just the opposite. I apologized on my site, and apologize again to those who feel I meant harm… I didn’t. I’d retract the statement but it’s too late. I also have a real hard time understanding how I could’ve been misconstrued, because the contrary (no illness) looks much worse, as far as I’m concerned. ”

    Brian Brian Brian
    Look at Greydon’s statement, look at your own.

    It’s never too late to post a retraction, newspapers do it, and like it or not you are part of the journalistic community.

    The issue isn’t mental illness… the issue is you want to believe Greydon is mentally ill, and you want the rest of the world to think Greydon is mentally ill. But wanting it doesn’t make it so. You assert that this was a factor in the incident but

    1) We don’t know that Greydon is bi-polar
    2) We don’t know he was “OFF HIS MEDS”
    3) We don’t know if this was even a factor
    4) We don’t know if Greydon is mentally ill

    We don’t know these things, and it’s not your business. You are no doctor.

    And none of these are at the heart of the use
    1) You refused to grasp it was your fault
    2) You refused to understand how anyone could think it was you selling the CDs
    3) You refused to understand that Greydon had legit reason to be irate… you dismissed him as being irrational. Who wouldn’t be?
    4) You refused to understand you were not respecting Greydon’s copyright… and unless you can show me a contract or bill of sale… the prerogative of making copies is the domain of the copyright holder.

    IIRC on of the rules of your site is the user must have the ability to admit the possibility that they were wrong. In this case, you were. You claim it’s a community issue, but how much of this BULLSHIT could have been avoided if you did the right thing in the first place… admit you were wrong, work out your private business in arbitration, and kept the community out of it. But it’s worse than that, you threw gasoline on the proverbial fire, you did YOUR damnedest to make sure that others were aware of this and make damn sure Greydon could never work in this community again. YOU got the community involved, you wanted the community involved.

    But we can learn something from this incident.

    1) It’s possible to prove Greydon to blows.
    2) Sapient can’t run a business.

    And that’s the bottom line. If you can’t be bothered to mail CDs once a week, why do you think you even deserve to take public money? The standards any freethought organization should be higher of that of any religious group, and if I shell out $15.00 for pope on a rope… odds are I get pope on a rope.

    There is no excuse for what Greydon did, but there isn’t one for what you did as well. In Greydon’s case, unless I hear otherwise, I can easily presume it was a momentary lapse of reason and he’ll get his day in court. With you, what I can only describe at attempts of character assassination, is a pattern of behavior. You did it with Richard Dawkins, you threatened to do it with Stopper and took great joy in the fact that you knew her dirty laundry, and you did it with Greydon by bringing up the prior “fight” and by saying “we have reason to believe this was premeditated”, and assert mental illness was a factor without evidence of any mental illness.

    You can’t perform the fundamental task of a business, take money mail product. You can’t even manage a business well enough to verify that things are getting done for two months. You sir, respectfully, can’t do the job. If you were a honorable man, you would resign.

  • http://www.evolvedrational.com Evolved Rationalist

    It is strange that so many “freethinkers” here shoot their mouths off and heap whatever shit they claim to know about the RRS on a post about an isolated argument about a business dispute which turned violent.

    It seems that more than a few people have let their hate of the RRS spill over into matters unrelated to the crap they spew above.

  • http://thescienceethicist.blogspot.com/ Aerik

    IGExpandingPanda, as the one that equated atheism to Hitler and Stalin (Hitler was a Christian, ignoramus/liar), you don’t get to be taken seriously anymore, mkay?

    Sincerely,
    Reality.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “IGExpandingPanda, as the one that equated atheism to Hitler and Stalin (Hitler was a Christian, ignoramus/liar), you don’t get to be taken seriously anymore, mkay?”

    Good putting words in my mouth. No, the issue is the RRS thinking it’s a good idea to stand on a soap box and say let’s rid the world of all religion because religion is a mental disorder. They call this a counter-meme. The meme has already been taken, by people like Stalin. So when people hear people like the RRS they think atheist = nazi.

    The marketing slogan… sucks. I explained why it sucks.

    I don’t care about the god(s). I don’t even care to fight theism. Theism isn’t the problem.. demagogues are. Religion doesn’t hold the monopoly on dangerous demagogues.

    “It is strange that so many “freethinkers” here shoot their mouths off and heap whatever shit they claim to know about the RRS on a post about an isolated argument about a business dispute which turned violent.”

    How the RRS does business reflects on the people they claim they represent. BS made a choice to settle it at the convention, not take it out side or arbitrate the issue. If they don’t know how to do business, they they either find someone who can, or stop doing business. Period.

  • http://www.evolvedrational.com Evolved Rationalist

    That was because he couldn’t get in contact with Greydon for months, idiot.

    Don’t talk shit without knowing the real story.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “That was because he couldn’t get in contact with Greydon for months, idiot.

    Don’t talk shit without knowing the real story”

    Non-sequitur!

    1) Sapient took Greydon’s music, payed “hundreds” to make many
    2) Sapient gave Greydon some, he sold the rest
    3) Sapient setup a page and directed buyers to buy the CDs for 1:$15 3:$30 5:$50. Money was collected in “Rational Responders” paypal account.
    4) Sapient couldn’t be bothered and assigned the task to a flunky, but didn’t pay any attention whether the flunky did the job.
    5) Flunky failed to do their job… Greydon got blaimed as there was NO reference on the page they were buying the CDs from the RRS. (Note: their url is rational responders, not “The Rational Response Squad”)

    Sapient did not need to be in any contact with Greydon to ship CDs, he had the CDs. And that explanation doesn’t wash anyway as he clearly had the ability to talk to his stepmother, use e-mail, not to speak of his My Space.

    Based on what Brian said…
    http://www.rationalresponders.com/forum/14187?page=2#comment-172149

    I created the above list. If I am actually incorrect, let me know… but I’m basing this information from a primary source. Sapient screwed the pooch… he got hit. Sorry the dude got hit, but Brian was 100% responsible for making sure the people who gave him money got CDs.

    If they don’t know how to do business, they they either find someone who can, or stop doing business. Period.

  • http://www.evolvedrational.com Evolved Rationalist

    You said:

    “BS made a choice to settle it at the convention, not take it out side or arbitrate the issue.”

    Yes, he had to settle it at the convention because he couldn’t get in *contact* with Greydon (due to some reasons that I don’t think is any of your business) at all. Period.

  • Earl

    Yes, he had to settle it at the convention because he couldn’t get in *contact* with Greydon (due to some reasons that I don’t think is any of your business) at all.

    He didn’t need to get in contact with Greydon, Greydon had the issue with Brian vis a vis the CDs. At the convention GS offered BS arbitration, and BS turned it down. GS told BS to stop selling the CDs, and BS refused.

    Your point is where, exactly?

    Evolved Rationalist? Do you post under that pseudonym at RRS?
    Evolved into what exactly?
    Looks like an apologist from here.

  • http://www.evolvedrational.com Evolved Rationalist

    My point is on why BS had to settle the dispute at the convention instead of in private elsewhere.

    I don’t post at RRS. Evolved Rationalist is the pseudonym I use to post on my blog.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “Yes, he had to settle it at the convention because he couldn’t get in *contact* with Greydon (due to some reasons that I don’t think is any of your business) at all.”

    That doesn’t wash… according to witnesses the table hit the arbitrator. Also, if Greydon was there… Sapient could have asked for a phone number, not like that was even an issue as he could contact Greydon’s foster mother.

    But.. this is all beside the point.

    Sapient didn’t need to talk to Greydon to ship the CDs. Sapient had the CDs and took orders on his paypal. Sapient didn’t do the work, this would happen whether they talked or they didn’t. After not shipping the CDs for two months.

    I gave you a link, follow up on your own and disagree with me on the fact if you like. But the RRS is a business and as such has no expectation of privacy. He conducted business in public where there was no reasonable expectation of privacy. He doesn’t like it DON’T DO IT IN PUBLIC. Take it to your room, out side. . But the way the RRS conducts themselves as a business is our business and that of anyone who he claims to represent, the freethought and atheist community. The standards should be higher, not lower, than any creationist pretender site. Bottom line, if the RRS don’t have someone who can run a business, they gotta get someone who can. Period.

  • http://www.rationalresponders.com Brian Sapient

    I never refused to stop selling the CD’s, I said “I can’t promise.” This is due to the fact that CDs were being sold on 2 sites and I had no internet access to remove the info, thereby making it impossible to promise that and to have been honest about the promise. Had he said “well at least do it when you get an internet connection” I could’ve agreed to that. We did in fact stop selling the cd’s when we returned home, and have now packaged and processed all unfulfilled orders.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “We did in fact stop selling the cd’s when we returned home, and have now packaged and processed all unfulfilled orders.”

    Hmmmm…. You were in DC and didn’t have internet access? You didn’t remove the links until Thu Jun 12, 2008. Even if you were not using Drupal, there is no excuse to not being able to hit the net cafe and renaming the file a la I.E. I don’t know how injured you were, BUT I know for a fact you were posting June 10, 2008 10:40 PM.
    http://atheismisdead.blogspot.com/2008/06/pray-for-brian-sapient.html

    This also doesn’t explain why you continued to offer the product on your site… guaranteed 7 day’s delivery… when it was clear you were back ordered 2 months. Not to speak of being aware of the issue and not addressing it on the site, as any legit businessman would.

    I don’t know how injured you were, and I can certainly grant someone a day or two to recover… but by the time you were posting on the net, this should have been a high priority. Your high priority was to trash Greydon.

    Also, we know from Kelly the issue was the “hundreds” you had invested in CDs. Legit grievance I’ll give you that, something to bring up at arbitration. But face facts, the copyright was still Greydon’s and you were legally entitled to nothing.

    But the real insanity… what’s 100% nutty… why you thought it was a good idea to conduct business publicly, esp a dispute. We know from your explanation that the sales page made no reference to the RRS or Rational Responders, as if an outsider could make the connection between RRS and RR. I can understand you thought you were in the right, but get a room dude. You care about the “community”, yet air your dirty laundry.

    And what’s with what I would describe as character assassination. You tried it with Dawkins and the RDFRS volunteer, you threatened it with Stopper, and you did your best to paint Greydon Square in the same wife beater colors as Kelly’s ex husband. You want to be a community leader… is this how a community leader would act?

    I can look at Greydon’t statement and your statement. Greydon apologized and claimed to squash all beefs. You sir, you couldn’t bring up mental illness enough, and even if we knew for a fact that Greydon was mentally ill (diagnosed bi-polar doesn’t) you assert it was a factor. I’m sorry you got hit, but wanting to hit you after the shit you pulled is not a symptom of mental illness, it’s a system of you being an ass, in the wrong, a gross sense of entitlement and not being able to understand you are at fault.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    Also @Brian

    Your explanation doesn’t wash as… the first thing you actually “did” do was complain that Kelly couldn’t stand Greydon’s face and you wanted to sell the CDs to cover your medical bills… and offered a bulk discount. $5 for 10cds.

    I feel your pain, and might have considered the same thing… but you can’t pretend the first thing you did when you got home was address the Greydon situation. If you were honest… and said the first thing you addressed was paying off your medical bill… that would be fair, reasonable, and even I would be sympathetic (though we don’t know if you hit a charity hospital).

    But so long as there is no contract, no bill of sale, you had no legal right to sell the CDs without Greydon’s express permission, and as a voice in atheism, it’s up to you to behave like an adult.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    Who exactly is the “volunteer” who is now taking the fall for the “miscommunication” about the CD’s? It seems everyone but Brian was to blame and then he created a “volunteer” to take the fall and claimed he just found out about the unshipped cd’s a day or two before the conference…ummm yeah….suuuuuuure…then why were you trying for ever so long to get hold of Greydon?
    (BTW…he’s not very hard to get hold of…he has a phone, a home address, two myspace accts, skype, two yahoo msgr accts, and I forget what else….and as someone else pointed out…you called his foster-mother after the fight, so if you really needed to find him and discuss such a very important issue, you could have called her and gotten an urgent message to him. Dude..this was mail/wire fraud and as far as customers knew, it was Greydon committing the crime….if you wanted to find him and tell him there was a problem you could have. In my opinion, you were hiding from him and he had no choice but to confront you at the conference.)

    Bottom line, everything Brian says is bullshit. It’s not very hard to see that…if a person rational and not brain-washed.

    Now Brian claims that he and Lori are going to ship out the CD’s…was she the mysterious “volunteer” in charge of the CD’s?…if so…she lives in same house with Brian…you think he may have noticed that CD’s were not being shipped…and that MAYBE if business was a priority in their lives they have discussed it from time to time.

    Even IF, and that’s a huge IF, there was someone living outside the treehouse who had agreed to ship CD’s…it was Brian’s responsibility to make sure it was being done. As pointed out by Panda…Brian is incompetent, (or a criminal), and should not be in charge of doing laundry…much less running a business.

    It’s my opinion he was pulling a scam and got caught….but even if he truly was just utterly incompetent…he should still stop trying to play in the bigboy pool and go back to the kiddie pool. Shut the RRS down and go get a real job….or go get a real job and make the RRS what it should have been…a hobby. People can still makes some extra bucks from a hobby…but if you aren’t competent enough to run a full scale business…don’t try to.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “he should still stop trying to play in the bigboy pool and go back to the kiddie pool. Shut the RRS down and go get a real job….or go get a real job and make the RRS what it should have been…a hobby”

    What, the RRS isn’t a hobby now?

    The only reason I’m critical of your statement is because the level of business Brian is doing is hobby level stuff. I presume… based on 1000-1500% profit that Sapient bought a production run of 1000 @ $1000. He would only need sell 67 CDs to break even, over a period of 4 months that he actually brothered to sell them. That would be less than 4 CDs per week. If double the cost to make, 8/week would break even. Presuming Brian was honest about having hundreds of dollars still invested, presuming he could use Google and find CD duplication.

    I’m sorry but work you can do once a week… I call that hobby. He couldn’t be bothered to do the hobby.

    The RRS stuff… I have NO clue what Sapient does other than run a website, and do his little show. The t-shirt and thong sales are, near as I’m aware, through a 3rd party. Near as I’m aware the only commercial aspect is the site. There is a claim of working 20 hour days… but on what I have no idea. I know they spend much time “on” the website, but they don’t seem to invest much time “in” the website. I could be mistaken, I don’t know what Sapient does 20 hours a day.

    To me the RRS is a hobby. It’s three people who beg for money to run a website and jabber in stickam.

  • http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=58270567 Rayven Alandria

    Yes, I agree…it’s a hobby…My meaning was that he likes to think of it as a successful enterprise….and he wants to get rich from it. I didn’t express myself well.

    He needs to stop presenting himself as a business man and an activist when he’s in fact just an idiot who can’t figure out how to ship out a few CD’s a week.

    Brian claims he cares deeply about the Atheist community…if this were true he would slip into obscurity because it appears that most of us would REALLY like him to. He should be honest and state that he cares only about Brian…and a little bit about his RRS cult followers…and those are the only people he cares about.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “My meaning was that he likes to think of it as a successful enterprise….and he wants to get rich from it.”

    They do. Sapient already got $208,000 for his house out of the deal (see your blog for ED link), and they’ve got 4 people to handle the rest of the mortgage (last time I crunched the numbers $400each/month should cover it including property tax IIRC). That’s damn spiffy for less than 2 years of operation. Doesn’t pay the bills, but it sure pays.

    As far as the business goes… nothing wrong with starting a nitch webhosting firm. Proactive atheists and freethinkers under Drupal…. plenty of people willing to shell out cash for hosting… but given you can get hosting for free, or for trivial amounts like $7/month… Sapient is wanting top dollar for, respectfully, a mickey mouse operation. If he was a Drupal specialist… I could see hosting on his site… and even paying for it… if I didn’t know jack about computers or html. But he doesn’t seem to know Drupal, let alone some of the fundamentals of hosting, not to speak of the business end.

    Nothing wrong with earning a salary in activism. But what does the guy do?

  • A&A member

    Brian Sapeint is a complete douche, and I laughed after reading this story. The sooner everybody forgets about him, the better.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “Brian Sapeint is a complete douche, and I laughed after reading this story. The sooner everybody forgets about him, the better.”

    Well, unfortunately people are, I presume, still giving him cash, without knowing what the RRS does and where it goes. We see this situation he can’t take money and ship out products, not without screwing the pouch for two months.

  • Earl

    My point is on why BS had to settle the dispute at the convention instead of in private elsewhere.

    How is that relevant?
    They met in private at the convention. What would ‘elsewhere’ have brought into the equation?

    What dispute? Brian had no dispute, all he had to do was take the money and post the CDs. He only did half of that, Greydon had the issue, and nobody was disputing anything: Brian accepted the facts that the CDs hadn’t been sent.

    It seems that Brian has created a myth about dispute where one does not exist. Greydon told Brian, Brian disputed and had no right to. Le fin.

    I don’t post at RRS. Evolved Rationalist is the pseudonym I use to post on my blog.

    Thank you.

  • IGExpandingPanda

    “They met in private at the convention. What would ‘elsewhere’ have brought into the equation?”

    Ummm… they met publicly at the convention AFAIK. At the table, where the table hit someone according to what I read. I presume it was were Sapient was selling Greydon CDs. But there is a point, you don’t conduct business publicly. It’s bad form. From what I’ve read, Sapient wanted to settle it then and there, where Greydon wanted to use a neutral arbitrator.
    What I know for a fact is Brian grandstanded this dispute publicly on his form, and just about any blog talking about it, as did Kelly. I’ll have to review what Rook wrote to say if he did the same thing.

    Greydon and Brian conducted business publicly at the convention. Foofoo on both of them. Not sure why Greydon did this, but I can presume that Brian was dodging Greydon’s calls. Brian made a private business matter VERY public. I can see that on his website, and any blog talking about the event. Double foofoo on him.

    “It seems that Brian has created a myth about dispute where one does not exist. Greydon told Brian, Brian disputed and had no right to.”

    There was a dispute. Greydon wanted Brian to stop selling CDs. Brian felt that since he still had “hundreds” invested. That’s a dispute. I know this because on Brian’s form he was talking about offering Greydon CDs at 10 for $50 to help pay his medical bills. Fair enough… but again it’s brining a private matter… accountability for medical bills, into the public.

    No matter what way you look at it, there was a dispute. If there was no dispute, there would be one party with a request, and another that agrees. There wasn’t, it’s fair to call it a dispute.

    Why does it matter? Well it shows us two reasons not to do business with the RRS. They lack follow through, and if the deal goes south Brian will do his best to humiliate you, and accuse you of being mentally ill.

  • Earl

    Fair enough IG, I’ll go with you on that.

    Though I think an equally valid reading is that Brian manufactured ‘dispute’.

    It makes no odds really, except to point out that a ‘dispute’ means Brian considers Greydon’s request unfair, whereas is wasn’t, it was a legitimate request which Brian should not have disputed but should have accepted the offer of arbitration on.

    If it was my work/reputation on the line and an agent of mine screwed up like that, and then started trying to get funny with me when I sacked them, I’d be laughing all the way to the bank via the courtroom.

    In fact, no reputable agent would find themselves in such a position in the first place – generally people swap agents all of the time, that’s the nature of the beast – there is always an option to discuss things if ‘the relationship has soured’ or some such, but essentially agents stop working for you the moment you tell them to, pending the outcome of any other discussions/contractual wranglings as may be appropriate.

    The moment your agent starts getting in your face and telling you how it’s going to be, they are usually an ex-agent pretty swiftly.

    And this is my point, anyone worth their salt – that is anyone with a brain larger than their stupid ego – would have agreed with Greydon’s request pending arbitration, especially if they had known what had gone on; Brian should have been as embarrassed and penitent as Greydon was outraged, but Brian Sapient is a divot.

  • kazo

    the sad part is that some people actually were proud of RRS and respected both greydon and sapient. i used to volunteerly write articles in hip hop and atheist magazines promoting greydons music and the message of RRS in my country . Now i regret that i did that.
    I am not sure why greydon punched Sapient but if money is the issue it is the saddest thing. greydon states in his songs that the message is more important than the money : “anything a label can do i can do for my self” “Money is the root of all evil and ” “they’re afraid of losing money. honestly i don’t give a damn..keep your money…”. it seems however that this is not the case and that people are willing to jeopardize their common goals for money. I will probably still listen to greydons music but I can not promote it to the atheist community anymore. the older generation of atheists dislikes rap because of the religious lyrics mixed with violence. for example 50cent has a big cross around his neck and at the same time talks about shooting and beating people up. when i heard greydon i was proud to promote rap but now its just the same old story. this is even worse because this happened at the World Humanist Congress and the fight gives atheists and humanists, who are mostly pacifists, a bad reputation.
    however if greydon truly is suffering from a mental illness i wish him a quick recovery as i do to brian regarding the physical damages.

    regards,

    a disappointed atheist hip hop fan


CLOSE | X

HIDE | X